Elysian Odyssey (EU4 Quest - Byzantium in the New World)

I'm not sure why you assume the Varangians are 'full maile with daneaxes'. They've been separated from Scandanavia for almost half a millenium, during which they almost suffered total extinction from population collapse. Their religion has shifted towards a more native american animism form of Norse paganism, even. The Varangians are well-equipped, but their primary function is loyalty, not as some unstoppable juggernaut. They aren't just Danelaw vikings transposed through time by 600 years.

Secondly, these aren't native americans by OTL. By the time the first European colonies were interacting with the native tribes they were dealing with societies which had suffered monumental (up to 90%) population losses to disease. You are not dealing with that situation. These natives have also had plenty of time for knowledge to disseminate from Vinland in regards to metallurgy and even social customs.

Thirdly, the insanely heavily armored cataphract had kind of gone extinct by the Fall of Constantinople, having been replaced by western mercenary cavalry. But even allowing for 'just' armored cavalry, it's entirely understandable for a commander to not commit cavalry to a battle when breaking through the enemy line gives you only a couple seconds of riding before going straight into a river. Next to a large native army almost exclusively using spears. If there hadn't been such a major numerical disadvantage then Theophilos could have commited his cavalry much more readily because he could have been able to actually control the battlefield more effectively.

Theophilos was sent into a battle at less than full readiness against a skilled general. Nullifying your advantages to leverage theirs isn't you putting 'strength against weakness'. Quite the opposite. You are not the Komenian Byzantine Empire. You aren't even the Empire of Nikaea.
I'm going to assume that as the Imperial Bodygaurds they're going to be provided with some of the highest quality available equipment. For the prestige of it if nothing else. The funds for the Varangians or the Imperial Court to outfit them were obviously there, and it's not like the metalsmithing was beyond our smiths. There is no feasible situation that the prestigious guards of the Imperial Household aren't going to be tied into the splendor and pageantry of court. A mail harness seems like an obvious first-step when you're paying these men enough silver to literally line their tunics with it. So much of being a body guard is rooted in appearing intimidating and omni-present so as to curtail any ideas in the first place after all.

There is no discernible reason they aren't heavy infantry well armed and armored, with solid morale and a firm belief in their own superiority in discipline. All of these things count for a lot. And if these things weren't present. We should have been told. We've paid for them, supported them for the most part and ensured their loyalty. The fact it has no narrative impact besides '500 Varangians that can't even be arsed to be mentioned in a fight' makes any of our choices with them involved less meaningful.

I'm well aware these aren't the same native american cultures of OTL. The only part I explicitly stated they'd have inferior works would be metal helmets, and presumably all the advancements in shields that the military pressure cooker of Europe provided. And that they do not particularly have a culture that supports discipline in formation fighting in such a way that doesn't actually all that well leverage their numbers.

I'm sort of confused on the assertion of the natives numbers have the most bearing on the deployment of the heavy cavalry, even if I was outright wrong on the nature of it. The natives didn't try and wrap around our flanks or turn them or what have you. They just made the densest hedge of spears they could while trapped against a river's edge and having a huge skirmisher and mobility inferiority given they have nothing that can outmaneuver cavalry. There wasn't any reason for us to not to skirmish and bombard them with missiles. If humans could ford the river where they were, horses likely could handle it about as well if not better, and even if they snuck away in the night the cavalry could have harrased them on the march now that their general position was identified.

The problem is, this wasn't nullifying our strengths so much as the natives making a defensible but untenable stand, and us throwing ourselves against the closest thing the natives could make to a rock. Time clearly favored us, both in knowing their relative position and having a mobility advantage, and because we could have just shadowed their army until the rest of our muster arrived now and crushed them with overwhelming force.

When you run a primarily narrative focused quest like this, you require the voters trust that you're going to resolve events fairly based off our choices. This can be through either transparency in how our previous choices affected this outcome, engagement with the voters on the results and what that entails, and just general exposure and precedent for being fair about these things. You opened our first battle with explaining our emperor was reasonably competent, and then proceeded to hand him the idiot ball. None of our choices to further fund and equip the militia or the Varangians were mentioned as having any bearing. The Dynatoi's support and heavy cavalry was immaterial because the natives fought like Dutch versus the flower of French chivalry. Your modern historical account doesn't even bother to explain why the natives had the wherewithal to adopt a close order hedge of spears in the face of cavalry charge when this should have been the first large mounted charge in the history of the New World. In my case, you've taken most of the interest and budding trust in your ability to tell a compelling and cooperative story and squandered it for no discernible reason. Were our choices poor? Was it just the odds? Was there a poor roll behind curtains? Was the point to prove we could make all the right choices and still lose? If we face a setback, we need some kind of feedback on what caused that setback. How can we make informed choices if we don't have any inkling of how our previous choices impacted where we stand?

The battle was handled poorly. You and I could debate about the state of the Varangians, or the culture of the natives, or whatever- but the lack of feedback for the players to process and the absence of the impact of our choices should be evident. I don't actually want to harangue you with thousand word long arguments when these sort of things can and should be a simple hundred words describing them in the actual update.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Aug 11, 2020 at 6:03 AM, finished with 63 posts and 22 votes.
 
[X] Conduct a retributive raid into Potawatomi territory.

I don't like any of the choices but I don't see a good alternative either.
 
[X] Set a watch on the border and return to the capital.
 
1471-1475: Vinland Unifies
Not one to let a slight go unanswered, Theophilos pushed the army after the Potawatomi forces. Several days into the dense forests and uncharted territory of the area, however, it became clear that not only was supply going to become increasingly challenging but also that prosecuting a full campaign would be near impossible. Fortunately Theophilos had not declared his intention to do so, against the loud advice of some of his officers, and so suffered no loss of reputation for conducting a punitive raid instead. That target of that raid was the primary settlement with which Roman merchants had exchanged goods, but on arriving outside its timber walls it became apparent that much of the male population was lurking in the area. Native forces seemed to melt out of the trees and make opportunistic attacks with distressing regularity, inflicting few casualties but causing increasing disruption. To prevent these attacks while the settlement was put to seige, Theophilos denuded the woodland around his camp, using the resulting timber to dam the wide stream that provided water to the Potawatomi settlement. More significantly, however, it deprived them of means to fight fire effectively. The stockade was then set ablaze and the Romans poured into the town, looting as they went. The great irony of the subsequent triumphal return to Nea Konstantinopolis with spoils in tow is that most of the (non-human) plunder had been traded to the Potawatomi by Elysian merchants in the first place.

Silver and Steel: Elysia and Indigenous Peoples. London Publishing House, 1972.



With the barbaroi incursion dealt with you are able to return to the normal business of government. Nea Aleksandreia is linked more closely to the capital than ever before with the expansion and improvement of the roads, this time without any sponsorship from the Emporoi required. The flour trade in Nea Konstantinopolis has (not literally) exploded, with the great fields stretching from the boundaries of the city now feeding the urban populations of other Elysian settlements. This is especially true for Methenai, which under the ambitious attentions of the administration experiences a massive influx of goods and material. In a matter of years it goes from what was effectively a frontier town to an organised and planned city in-the-making. Luxurious furs are now even beginning to penetrate the court, a kind of Vinlandic chic becoming mildly popular among the lesser Dynatoi. From the viewpoint of the Imperial coffers, however, only the greater taxation matters. Let the outer circles of the court have their fads.

Atlapolis itself is beginning to take shape, but a running theme in reports seems to be rooted in an animus with the Lenape, who are rebuffing efforts by settlers to progress further into the fertile northern valleys. It does seem to confirm that the barbaroi will be your primary concern in the coming years, and reports from the Office of Exploration certainly bear that out. Although the western border lacks any major tribal powers (or especially tempting resources, which is probably the reason why), the same cannot be said for the south. While there is still 'unclaimed' land between the Elysian border and the scattered settlements of the Tuscarora, a confederation of three major tribes. While you need to take the reports with a grain of salt, the suggestion that their population may be as high as forty thousand is deeply concerning. While the barbaroi lack the societal structure needed to reach a refined level of civilization they are nonetheless capable of fielding substantial forces when needed. The Potawatomi have shown you that.

The main news of foreign affairs is that the Northmen dynasties finally got down to business in discussing who should claim the title of high king. Initial talks were held in the town of Straumfjord between the two candidates before progressing to a second debate in the Hellulandic settlement of Karlbudir. When Aarick Burdi persuaded his rival to surrender his crown (and head) after a heated debate on the city wall the matter was settled. Some of your Varangians have subsequently travelled home as a result of the news, and the general consensus of your advisors is that the unification of Vinland is unlikely to have any effect on Elysian policy for decades. Aside from an anemic trickle of trade that barely shows up on the ledgers the Varangians are the only thing of note associated with the pagan 'kingdom'.


Theophilos II Palaiologos
By the grace of Christ the God, Emperor of the Romans.
1458 -

Administrative Skill: 5
Diplomatic Skill: 4

Imperial Court: 1

Monarch Points
Administrative: 346 (+69)
Diplomatic: 294 (+45)


Development Projects
[ ] The Urbanisation of Atlapolis: 200 Administrative Points (1->5)
[ ] The Urbanisation of Ivos: 252 Administrative Points (1->5)
[ ] Tax Exemptions for New Families: 360 Administrative Points

[ ] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points (3->5)
[ ] The Smoking Leaf of Alouion: 100 Diplomatic Points (3>5)
[ ] The Trappers of Atlapolis: 200 Diplomatic Points (1->5)
[ ] The Trappers of Ivos: 252 Diplomatic Points (1->5)

Each Development Project gives development. Some regions are easier to develop than others!

Treasury Projects
[ ] The Roads of Odessos (100 Silver)
[ ] The Roads of Methenai (100 Silver)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Konstantinopolis (100 Silver)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Aleksandreia (100 Silver)
[ ] Irrigation Channels in Nea Konstantinopolis (500 Silver)
[ ] The Grand Cothon of Ivos (600 Silver)

It is necessary to at least construct paths in all owned settlement areas before new settlements can be established!

Elysia
Treasury: 261 Silver
Stability: 2
Development: 55
Population: 94,950

Imperial Land: 55%

Dynatoi Loyalty: 45
Dynatoi Influence: 45
Dynatoi Land: 30%

Presbyteroi Loyalty: 60
Presbyteroi Influence: 42
Presbyteroi Land: 15%

Emperoi Loyalty: 50
Emporoi Influence: 25

Militia: 6000 Men
Dynatoi: 2000 Men
Varangians: 500 Men

CityPopulationTaxProductionTrade GoodTaxProductionTrade
Nea Konstantinopolis20118105Grain17.003.752.75
Nea Alexandriea1599655Tobacco8.503.003.3
Methenai685455Fur6.752.002.2
Odessos1405753Grain6.751.501.65
Alouion1468253Tobacco6.751.801.98
Ivos1138911Fur1.350.400.44
Atlapolis1185411Fur1.350.400.44

IncomeExpenses
Taxation48.45Imperial Court13.86
Production12.85Professional Army12
Trade12.76Standing Army0
Varangians8
Treasury261
Net40
Next301

There is a two-hour moratorium on voting. Votes prior will be discounted.
 
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Here's my idea
[ ] The Urbanisation of Ivos: 252 Administrative Points (1->5)
[ ] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points (3->5)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Konstantinopolis (100 Silver)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Aleksandreia (100 Silver)
 
@Sayle Seeing as the Dynatoi's loyalty didn't decrease, as it was expected to, can we accredit our relative success against the Potawatomi as being the thing that offset the likely decrease in our loyalty from them?
 
that farm and more tabaco sound interesting.

ps what can we get if we save up admin and/or diplo point can we upgrade teck somehow?
 
Well, that raid went about as well as we could have hoped. Successful plunder, no heavy losses. About the only thing that could have gone better would be other nearby native tribes deciding to pack up and leave when they saw it.

If we throw Imperial money and influence directly at establishing new colonies/frontier towns, would that increase Imperial Land% ?

Thoughts on a write-in: I would like to replace Hagia Sophia sometime. Build a grand cathedral in thanks to God who brought us to this new land. Might be a multiple-turns project.

Although the western border lacks any major tribal powers (or especially tempting resources, which is probably the reason why)
Heh. The really tempting resource for us at the moment, I think, is land. Especially once we can afford Tax Exemptions for New Families.
 
Here's my plan:
[ ] The Urbanisation of Ivos: 252 Administrative Points (1->5)
[ ] The Trappers of Ivos: 200 Diplomatic Points (1->5)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Konstantinopolis (100 Silver)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Aleksandreia (100 Silver)

Ivos is part of the heartlands and should be developed before Atlapolis is. Likewise, we don't yet have trappers established, so that should be either Ivos or Methanai.
 
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Ivos is part of the heartlands and should be developed before Atlapolis is. Likewise, we don't yet have trappers established, so that should be either Ivos or Methanai.
But we do have trappers. We voted for it in the last 5 year turn. The update was just describing how much fur we...
wait a moment

[ ] The Trappers of Methenai: 200 Diplomatic Points (1->5)
Settlements
Methenai685455Fur
@Sayle ?
 
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[ ] Tax Exemptions for New Families: 360 Administrative Points

I'm willing to go for any plan that saves some Administrative Points so that we can get this next turn, as the sooner we get this, the sooner we can increase our population's growth rate.

[ ] The Grand Cothon of Ivos (600 Silver)

Wish we had chosen the coastal route, as then that would've made this option much more useful, especially as it could potentially allow us to get in contact with that Duchy or whatever that we rediscover later, at least if that event still happens here like it did in the mod.
 
[ ] The Urbanisation of Atlapolis: 200 Administrative Points (1->5)
[ ] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points (3->5)
[ ] The Smoking Leaf of Alouion: 100 Diplomatic Points (3>5)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Konstantinopolis (100 Silver)
[ ] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Aleksandreia (100 Silver)

I'm fine changing around dip points, but I'd rather increase urbanization in Atlapolis than Ivos to save admin points for the family tax population booster
 
@Sayle Seeing as the Dynatoi's loyalty didn't decrease, as it was expected to, can we accredit our relative success against the Potawatomi as being the thing that offset the likely decrease in our loyalty from them?

You actually didn't get a loyalty hit - the two options were between two bonuses. The Dynatoi commanders had a multi-faceted modifier that shifted you more towards a heavy-shock based army (but had some negatives), while the meritocracy increased stability.


Fixed.
 
You actually didn't get a loyalty hit - the two options were between two bonuses. The Dynatoi commanders had a multi-faceted modifier that shifted you more towards a heavy-shock based army (but had some negatives), while the meritocracy increased stability.

How did our choice there impact our short war against the Potawatomi? Would the Dynatoi Commanders being chosen have helped the Battle of the Potawatomi River?

So that's where our stability increase from last turn came from, good to know.

[ ] The Grand Cothon of Ivos (600 Silver)

So...quick question here, how much actual maritime trade do we even do? Do we even have a Navy?
 
How did our choice there impact our short war against the Potawatomi? Would the Dynatoi Commanders being chosen have helped the Battle of the Potawatomi River?

So...quick question here, how much actual maritime trade do we even do? Do we even have a Navy?

Probably not, given the numerical disparity and unfavourable terrain.

Very little, and just the flagship from the Exodus sitting offshore.
 
Probably not, given the numerical disparity and unfavourable terrain.

Very little, and just the flagship from the Exodus sitting offshore.

So if we did spend money to build a Cothon, would part of that money not just be used for the harbor structure itself, but also for a fleet to be stationed there? (One hopefully armed with cannon. We still have those right?)
 
[ ] The Urbanisation of Atlapolis: 200 Administrative Points (1->5)

I'm fine changing around dip points, but I'd rather increase urbanization in Atlapolis than Ivos to save admin points for the family tax population booster

If you want to save Admin points, why are you suggesting spending a whole bunch?
 
ps what can we get if we save up admin and/or diplo point can we upgrade teck somehow?
Tech upgrades automatically siphon part of our admin/diplo earnings off. We get +12 (might be +14, it's kinda a moot point) each for every pip our ruler has in those area (augmented by the level of imperial court), which would be +72 Admin and +60 Diplo per year if not for that siphoning.

Anywho, here's my plan.

[X] Plan Focus on Atlapolis
-[X] The Urbanisation of Atlapolis: 200 Administrative Points (1->5)
-[X] The Trappers of Atlapolis: 200 Diplomatic Points (1->5)
-[X] The Roads of Methenai (100 Silver)
-[X] Sponsor Workshops in Nea Aleksandreia (100 Silver)

Based off of the workshops we built in Nea Konstantinopolis last turn they're a +50% Production that doesn't carry over to trade. So crunching the numbers means roads in Odessos/Methenai are still better investments at +1.75/year (unless they stack multiplicatively, but that would be totally bonkers), but Nea Aleksandreia's come close at +1.5. Still, people are apparently tired of road-building, so I compromised.

Methenai's roads are kinda important though. The border with the Lenape seems to have issues, and roads are also useful for increasing military response time - i'd like to be better able to respond to any issues out that way, which means building up our infrastructure out in that direction.
 
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