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Elysian Odyssey (EU4 Quest - Byzantium in the New World)

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[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] Eliminate purely ceremonial titles and positions from the court.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
[X] Unfortunate, but these things happen.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.

Last important decisions of Konstantinos XI, Emperor of Elysia… and also a tired old man who was about to die. It takes less effort, keeping things as they are.

Also, development:
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
[X] Unfortunate, but these things happen.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Smoking Leaf of Alouion: 100 Diplomatic Points

Look, I know you're riding high on the moral high ground, but some of that just isn't how it works, Vesca. I'm on the edge of sleep and I don't want to escalate this more than I am by bringing it up, so please forgive me for not going into it. I just want to air it that while I agree with you a fair bit of the time, your grandstanding is wearisome and probably not the best tactic to convince people to vote with you, especially when it smacks of selective ignorance as it does for me here. Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself. Whatever. Hopefully that didn't come off as rude.

You know what, I will go into it a little bit, because it's really bugging me.

You say "they broke the law", but whether they actually did or not is questionable by word of QM. It's certainly not nearly as open and shut as you proclaim. You also say it's just "because they were frightened". That's clearly spoken from the perspective of someone who isn't a god-fearing Christian seeing strange foreigners invoke the devil and damn the communities around them. Out of character we "know", as much as we can really know in matters of faith, that they had nothing to worry about, their souls can't be damned and no such thing is true. But that doesn't strip anything from their motive. Motive is all about their thoughts, not yours. Someone's motive to kill doesn't vanish just because you know that they weren't getting cut out of the will or whatever the fuck. It also doesn't mean anything for our Christian Emperor, who likely hasn't even heard of atheism. It's one pill to swallow a fellow Abrahamic religion's coexistence—though even that is far from simple, as a passing knowledge of history can show—but entirely another to coexist with something so different that it can casually and agreeably be called devil-worship (which the priests did, and thus many/most likely do).

Sorry to go back on what I said, but it just irritates me to see someone be so disingenuous, whether they mean it or not—and I don't think you did. You can respond, obviously, but in the interests of my sanity and of not clogging the thread up with theology or personal arguments, I won't respond to your response. If it really bothers me I'll take it to DMs. I'll post this here though, since 85% of an online argument is about the audience, as much as I hate arguments.

Regardless, setting a precedent of not lynching the natives for differing rituals will be useful for possible syncretism down the line. Or not, I guess, depends on if we want to cultivate our own empire in the Americas or allies in Europe. I'm siding with the latter, as we made an alliance of sorts with the Portuguese which I'd like to maintain, and Europeans in general are more powerful allies than natives. Just because I oppose it, that doesn't mean it's not a valid course and argument though, and it still provides us with an aid to coexistence. I guess we'll see if there are any nearby powers worth coexisting with in this alternative timeline. If not, the Central Americas are the nearest bastion of nations with muscles to flex. If nothing else, tribes are annoying and costly to deal with if we're provoked into conflict every time.

EDIT: I've been convinced the hanging is a bad call.

As for the ceremonial roles, the Dynatoi are our most powerful faction, and a bit of extra expense is worth keeping them happy and influential. Plus, well, what are the Byzantines without complexity? Less interesting.
 
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Fezzes said:
[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Smoking Leaf of Alouion: 100 Diplomatic Points

Look, I know you're riding high on the moral high ground, but some of that just isn't how it works, Vesca. I'm on the edge of sleep and I don't want to escalate this more than I am by bringing it up, so please forgive me for not going into it. I just want to air it that while I agree with you a fair bit of the time, your grandstanding is wearisome and probably not the best tactic to convince people to vote with you, especially when it smacks of selective ignorance as it does for me here. Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself. Whatever. Hopefully that didn't come off as rude.

You know what, I will go into it a little bit, because it's really bugging me.

You say "they broke the law", but whether they actually did or not is questionable by word of QM. It's certainly not nearly as open and shut as you proclaim. You also say it's just "because they were frightened". That's clearly spoken from the perspective of someone who isn't a god-fearing Christian seeing strange foreigners invoke the devil and damn the communities around them. Out of character we "know", as much as we can really know in matters of faith, that they had nothing to worry about, their souls can't be damned and no such thing is true. But that doesn't strip anything from their motive. Motive is all about their thoughts, not yours. Someone's motive to kill doesn't vanish just because you know that they weren't getting cut out of the will or whatever the fuck. It also doesn't mean anything for our Christian Emperor, who likely hasn't even heard of atheism. It's one pill to swallow a fellow Abrahamic religion's coexistence—though even that is far from simple, as a passing knowledge of history can show—but entirely another to coexist with something so different that it can casually and agreeably be called devil-worship (which the priests did, and thus many/most likely do).

Sorry to go back on what I said, but it just irritates me to see someone be so disingenuous, whether they mean it or not—and I don't think you did. You can respond, obviously, but in the interests of my sanity and of not clogging the thread up with theology or personal arguments, I won't respond to your response. If it really bothers me I'll take it to DMs. I'll post this here though, since 85% of an online argument is about the audience, as much as I hate arguments.

Regardless, setting a precedent of not lynching the natives for differing rituals will be useful for possible syncretism down the line. Or not, I guess, depends on if we want to cultivate our own empire in the Americas or allies in Europe. I'm siding with the latter, as we made an alliance of sorts with the Portuguese which I'd like to maintain, and Europeans in general are more powerful allies than natives. Just because I oppose it, that doesn't mean it's not a valid course and argument though, and it still provides us with an aid to coexistence. I guess we'll see if there are any nearby powers worth coexisting with in this alternative timeline. If not, the Central Americas are the nearest bastion of nations with muscles to flex. If nothing else, tribes are annoying and costly to deal with if we're provoked into conflict every time.

As for the ceremonial roles, the Dynatoi are our most powerful faction, and a bit of extra expense is worth keeping them happy and influential. Plus, well, what are the Byzantines without complexity? Less interesting.
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I am role playing as a priest. They actually believed in this kind of stuff back then. They were true believers who were in the business of saving souls from eternal damnation. To kill someone who is not saved, is to admit that their soul is beyond salvation, which is a refutation of the very words of Christ.

So perhaps you should give my post another look-see?
 
[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points

Hmm although not needed now with options starting to get more complex and needing to save points for more expensive options or for later opportunities it may be best to think about moving to a plan system.
 
I am really iffy about this whole hanging thing.

Our people and estates are already thinking we are acting weird without reason, throwing up arbritary boundaries and acting against their interests in the most random of times. I would rather not lose any more trust from our people or estates. At this rate I don't see this dynasty lasting much longer.
 
a simple pilgrim said:
I am really iffy about this whole hanging thing.

Our people and estates are already thinking we are acting weird without reason, throwing up arbritary boundaries and acting against their interests in the most random of times. I would rather not lose any more trust from our people or estates. At this rate I don't see this dynasty lasting much longer.
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Could you quote me where this is being stated?
 
I don't really understand why people want to hang our citizens there our chief and only power base keeping them happy is more important right now then seeing justice done. If we also side with the Natives here it can be seen as us going against our own people not a really smart idea in my opinion. Yes what they did is wrong for our modern perspective from someone that lives in the 1400's where people where a lot more ignorant of different cultures and beliefs this isn't really surprising and people won't be happy if we side with the Natives it's for the best of our realm that we let this slide.
 
Professor Vesca said:
No, it is not the norm of the time. Especially as we were an empire who existed on the periphery of the christian and islamic worlds. The Eastern Roman Empire sat at the crossroads between the greek and latin rites, the Nestorians, the Muslims, and more besides! Getting along with each other was important not just for our own peace but for the peace of christians living in the holy land dwelling alongside and beneath their muslim suzerains!

Can we not assume these strange people might not have overlords of their own? Masters who will become aware of their absence? Either way, the law is important. If we are to bring these people into the kingdom of God, we need to demonstrate that we are keepers of the law, for ourselves and for others!

I quote Augustine.
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Has any suzerain sought to make treaty with the Autokrator? Have these foreign men in foreign lands declared themselves subjects of any power, be it ours or another? Obviously we're familiar with the idea of foreign faiths or different denominations of Christianity in our empire. But that's not the same thing as the weird space these natives were left to fall into. They weren't our subjects, weren't subjects to a foreign power by any recognizable means- either their own declaration or otherwise. A state is obligated to uphold the law upon it's people for their safety and and uphold the law upon foreigners for the sake of goodwill between nations.

Christian ignorance in the face of the infidel is undoubtedly tragic, but this ignorance was only aloud to flourish because we failed to engage with the locals. To induct them into our culture, to enshrine their rights and land into law so that the immeasurable authority of the Basileus might have served to protect them and that they in turn might no how to seek succor from him. I can not find it in me to punish men for ousting literal outlaws that they suspected of witchery when the fault truly lies in a failure to communicate the nature of the new society that has been brought to the feet of the local men one way or another. We can no more expect a punishment placed upon a man seeking to protect his life and his immortal soul to leave an impression than a punishment enacted upon a man for the act of breathing. This incident demands redress and reevaluation, but a punishment that fails to chastise is worse than no punishment at all.

Simply put- I don't think punishing local peasantry is going to leave a lasting impression to prevent these sort of incidents, but will leave resentment for the punishment itself.
 
I wasn't responding to you in particular? I haven't even seen your post, professor vesca, I just saw most people were voting to hang

Sayle said:
One could argue that by simply getting them to agree to stay where they are and not bother your settlers (and that they owe no oath and own no land) means they have no protection under law. Hanging them might be right thing to do (according to some), but have they committed any legal crime? In fact, weren't they just trying to safeguard their souls?

tl'dr hanging will be unpopular. But you already knew that.
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I was thinking about this message by Sayle, and the previous ones that mentioned that while we haven't been ignoring our estates we have also not been generous. And in the most recent update about how we confused and upset both the church and the merchants.

So because of that, I think this is not the time to start punishing our own citizens for no clear benefit.
 
[X] Unfortunate, but these things happen.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
a simple pilgrim said:
I wasn't responding to you in particular? I haven't even seen your post, professor vesca, I just saw most people were voting to hang



I was thinking about this message by Sayle, and the previous ones that mentioned that while we haven't been ignoring our estates we have also not been generous. And in the most recent update about how we confused and upset both the church and the merchants.

So because of that, I think this is not the time to start punishing our own citizens for no clear benefit.
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I was responding to your post, asking if you could quote where what you were claiming was in fact the case.

EDIT: I mean, yeah the hanging will be unpopular, but most people do not enjoy being made to account for their misdeeds.
 
[X] Unfortunate, but these things happen.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
[X] Unfortunate, but these things happen.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
[X] Unfortunate, but these things happen.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
I will not allow Romans to be murdered by the actions they did to the barbaroi it may be unfortunate but they didn't kill any citizens to matter. If we don't support them the masses would go to the Imperial Palace and rip the emperor limb from limb if motivated enough from the Patriarch if we lose our mandate from God if we anger the Church too much.
 
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
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[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] Eliminate purely ceremonial titles and positions from the court.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Smoking Leaf of Alouion: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] Eliminate purely ceremonial titles and positions from the court.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
I'm just going to put another post urging people to not hang those responsible. It's going to really set a bad example for the peasants and clergy. The Peasants saw the native festival/ritual being carried out and were fearful of it. So they went to the local priest and were warned to stay away from the devil-worship. The Peasants now have it in their mind that the natives are devil-worshipers and they wanted to save their souls from the Devil, so they went out and attacked the Natives. I'm not saying this was the proper course of action, it was ignorance of course but if we're to hang the instigators, we're sending a clear message to everyone that we're favoring the so called Devil-worshipers. If we wanted to prevent misunderstandings from happening, we should of made the Natives living in our lands convert rather than let them worship their native religion. But we didn't and now we've got to deal with this problem. If we're just going to be digging a deeper hole for ourselves if we hang our own people. I understand that a lot of people want to syncretize (Don't remember the word) with the Native populace as we integrate them but personally I find that a bit boring. I want to see the Roman Empire remain fairly true to it's values, culture, and religion because it seems to be very common for quests or scenarios where the Byzantine Empire somehow ends up in the New World to syncretize with the native populace. I find Greek culture remaining Greek more interesting and a challenge.
 
Noroboro said:
I'm just going to put another post urging people to not hang those responsible. It's going to really set a bad example for the peasants and clergy. The Peasants saw the native festival/ritual being carried out and were fearful of it. So they went to the local priest and were warned to stay away from the devil-worship. The Peasants now have it in their mind that the natives are devil-worshipers and they wanted to save their souls from the Devil, so they went out and attacked the Natives. I'm not saying this was the proper course of action, it was ignorance of course but if we're to hang the instigators, we're sending a clear message to everyone that we're favoring the so called Devil-worshipers. If we wanted to prevent misunderstandings from happening, we should of made the Natives living in our lands convert rather than let them worship their native religion. But we didn't and now we've got to deal with this problem. If we're just going to be digging a deeper hole for ourselves if we hang our own people. I understand that a lot of people want to syncretize (Don't remember the word) with the Native populace as we integrate them but personally I find that a bit boring. I want to see the Roman Empire remain fairly true to it's values, culture, and religion because it seems to be very common for quests or scenarios where the Byzantine Empire somehow ends up in the New World to syncretize with the native populace. I find Greek culture remaining Greek more interesting and a challenge.
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That is ass backwards. Why cant we send the message that the ignorant peasants are ignorant and cant be relied upon to actually identify devil worship?
 
[X] Hang those most responsible for the massacre.
[X] The splendor of the court is a reflection of the splendor of the Empire.
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Odessos: 100 Administrative Points
[X] Increase Urbanisation in Nea Konstantinopolis: 102 Administrative Points
[X] The Farms of Odessos: 100 Diplomatic Points
 
I would have preferred the barbaroi to have converted, but I wasn't going to set in law that the priests had an effective veto on who could settle peacefully near us.
 
It is quite unseemly for a Roman emperor to side with natives already escaping from the wrath of the people and the Romans are quite well known if the emperor has lost their mandate then the knives are out and the Palalogoi will end with a whimper. This has nothing with helping people who are already escaping from the wrath of the citizens but more on the fact that the purple should not degrade itself on being a servant and slave to the barbaroi when they are already tolerated by the imperial administration. I'm starting to believe that it is a mistake to not allow conversion for land if we would be forced to choose between citizens and barbarians.
 
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