Dragon Ball, DBZ and DBGT Ideas, Discussion, and Recommendation Thread

Very true, Yamcha also looks more worn from the exchange as well, one thing I find interesting about this fight though is that, well, Tenshinhan was Goku's equal at this stage it i was in the lore and clear in their fight they more or less leveled out with both having slight advantages in key areas.

Goku defeated Krillin with genuine ease, no disrespect to Krillin, but their fight was basically a warm up for Goku, Tenshinhan meanwhile legitimately struggled to put Yamcha down even if he bounced back pretty quickly, it definitely felt like Yamcha was closer to Tenshinhan that Krillin was to Goku, though that could also be a matter of styles.

A big part of it is probably because Yamcha's fighting style is a.) a very good option for getting the better of an opponent who's superior on paper and b.) strongest by far at the beginning of a fight (which tends to be true of most fighting styles, but you get what I mean). There's also the fact that, while it did go both ways to some extent, Tien underestimated Yamcha a lot more than the other way around at first, given Yamcha knew Tien had already beaten Nam with ease, but Tien himself was utterly dismissive of all the Turtle School students at first. This all put together allowed Yamcha to have a distinct advantage in the first half of the fight.

Goku and Krillin, on the other hand, both know each others' fighting styles and techniques very well, and so there's a lot less room for Goku to make a mistake due to not knowing how Krillin fights or how good he is.

Very true facts there, and also super solid insights, yeah Tenshinhan's stamina is utterly beastly so trying to wear him down is a very poor fitting strategy and it makes Tenshinhan a terrible opponent for Yamcha specifically.

What's more, Tien's sheer toughness (even without that Iron Shirt-inspired technique) prevented Yamcha from being able to debilitate or eliminate him with his usual attacks, which was realistically his only other option. If Yamcha had, for example, been able to do enough damage with those claw strikes to do any real damage to Tien's arm, that fight could have gone differently, even if it would still have been an uphill battle for Yamcha.
 
A big part of it is probably because Yamcha's fighting style is a.) a very good option for getting the better of an opponent who's superior on paper and b.) strongest by far at the beginning of a fight (which tends to be true of most fighting styles, but you get what I mean). There's also the fact that, while it did go both ways to some extent, Tien underestimated Yamcha a lot more than the other way around at first, given Yamcha knew Tien had already beaten Nam with ease, but Tien himself was utterly dismissive of all the Turtle School students at first. This all put together allowed Yamcha to have a distinct advantage in the first half of the fight.

Goku and Krillin, on the other hand, both know each others' fighting styles and techniques very well, and so there's a lot less room for Goku to make a mistake due to not knowing how Krillin fights or how good he is.
Good insights there, very true, hehe, kinda makes me think of Vgeta's style actually (When he isn't screwing around he goes in hard and fast and wears himself out quick)

While there is truth to that he seemed to start taking Yamcha seriously pretty quickly to me, while Goku casually blocked Krillin's Kame Hame Ha and generally shrugged off everything his friends did to him with no issues, Tenshinhan at least seemed to take some damage.

What's more, Tien's sheer toughness (even without that Iron Shirt-inspired technique) prevented Yamcha from being able to debilitate or eliminate him with his usual attacks, which was realistically his only other option. If Yamcha had, for example, been able to do enough damage with those claw strikes to do any real damage to Tien's arm, that fight could have gone differently, even if it would still have been an uphill battle for Yamcha.
Iron shirt, I will have to look that up. Also good insights there, yeah!

As a general rule I don't think Tenshinhan quite had Goku's pain tolerance, but he still weathered all his blows and kept on swinging.. Actually I had a thing for this because I feel their fight was kind of the ur example of two equal foes and so is a great way to breakdown how a battle is divided soooo...

OK, I am going to divide the various facets that make up a battle in DB, from my perspective and list who did it better in the fight, though for reference I would say they were so close some are just ties.

Martial arts form: This is about a tie, Goku is a bit more creative but Tenshinhan is quite varied so 50/50.

Physical stamina: (IE how much punishment their body can take) Goku wins this one, despite Tenshinhan's brutal training, Goku had an easier tome taking his blows than Tenshinhan did his.

Ki technique: This one goes to Tenshinahn quite easily he has a vaster array of techniques he uses with mastery, Goku uses what he has very well but doesn't exhibit the same variety or control.

Reaction time: This is more or less a tie again, as they both countered each other with fairly even speed in CQC and generally had a good back and forth when things reached this point.

Built up Speed: Ironically I give this one to Goku, though it is a close match, but his 'eght arms' technique and the fact he moved so fast even Tenshinhan struggled (initially) with his movements and got in as many blows as he did at times, tell me Goku had a bit of an advantage in raw speed.

Physical strength: I'm gonna say tie again, Goku's blows sometimes seem to do more damage, but I feel that's tied to his more durable body than being notably stronger as in raw clashes they seemed pretty even, I might even hedge towards Tenshinhan slightly given their arm and leg lock clash.

Ki Stamina: Tenshinhan, easily, he used a life draining technique and could still fly afterwards while Goku burnt all he had on one last Kame Hame Ha and a tiny weak one, so if it came down to simple Ki blasts they would match each other but Goku would tire first and be overwhelmed.

I think that was all my rankings XD
 
While there is truth to that he seemed to start taking Yamcha seriously pretty quickly to me, while Goku casually blocked Krillin's Kame Hame Ha and generally shrugged off everything his friends did to him with no issues, Tenshinhan at least seemed to take some damage.

Well, as you yourself pointed out, Goku is either dead even or even has a slight advantage in almost every physical aspect over even Tenshinhan, who is intended to be his equal at this point in time (even being based on Erlang Shen to his Sun Wukong). Factor in both that and the fact that Krillin doesn't really have any big surprises he can pull out of his hat since they trained under the same master and know pretty much all the same moves, Krillin just kind of had the deck stacked against him from the start.
 
Well, as you yourself pointed out, Goku is either dead even or even has a slight advantage in almost every physical aspect over even Tenshinhan, who is intended to be his equal at this point in time (even being based on Erlang Shen to his Sun Wukong). Factor in both that and the fact that Krillin doesn't really have any big surprises he can pull out of his hat since they trained under the same master and know pretty much all the same moves, Krillin just kind of had the deck stacked against him from the start.
That's a fair take too, regardless, thanks for sharing your insights on all this, it has given me a whole new appreciation for these fights! Also nice Journey to the West reference, aah, I miss the days when Tenshinhan was the rival.
 
This just popped into my feed, and I had to post it. Wow. Every single fight (even ones that can't even be called fights) Yamcha gets in Z... and it isn't even over 9 minutes. Sometimes I feel like maybe I've inflated how screwed over all the humans were in Z, but then this proves that no, it's exactly that bad.



That said a few interesting things to note.

1. Yamcha seemingly dead even with Tien in strength during their training on the Lookout.

2. The Saibaman thing was much more of an actual fight than I remember, I tend to remember Saibamen just being these feral, screaming jobbers who don't really have actual moves for some reason, but here we are. Also, Yamcha basically pioneered the Instant Kamehameha right there.

3. I totally forgot this part of the anime filler of them training with King Kai. I feel like this was partly to hype up Piccolo since he's got his Namek stuff coming up, but it's cool that Yamcha's the one who actually manages to land a blow and it actually does something.

4. It's also nice that we actually see Yamcha going from struggling to hold his own against Recoome to trouncing him. That said, I actually would have liked if Yamcha were to fight Burter instead, since it'd be the two fast guys going up against each other. I guess with the numbers and dynamics at play that wouldn't quite work, though.

5. I always had this problem with the movies. Always. Why do you even bother to give the movie villains just the right number of henchmen for the other guys to fight when you just have them job hard and get humiliated, then Goku shows up and just sweeps them instantly, and not even in a cool way since it's always barely even a fight? We get it already, Goku Stronkest, it's established by now, you don't need to fuck over every other member of the cast and cheat them out of a cool fight in just about every movie to convince us of that.

6. The Garlic Junior never did nearly enough with the idea of several of the Z Warriors being turned evil at a time when there's no Goku to just instantly knock out all of them and resolve the fight instantly. 'Cause it's just Yamcha, and this is all he gets.

7. On the one hand, I like the idea of Yamcha and Krillin just goofing around during training sometimes. On the other hand, the Android Saga is where it was pretty much set in stone that Yamcha was essentially worthless as a fighter as far as Toriyama is concerned, so the dumb pratfall just makes the scene lose some of its charm.

8. Wait, how did I forget the scene where Tien and Yamcha are defending Goku from Cell Juniors? Holy shit, that's awesome (and almost certainly only exists in the anime). And he's even allowed to actually hold his own for a while! I mean, it's nothing on Tien holding down Imperfect Cell after he'd made a complete chump of Super Namekian Piccolo, but still.

9. To those who don't remember from that Otherworld Tournament filler, Olibu was basically King Kai's best student before Goku came along, and here's Yamcha giving him a handicap and still dominating. The people who made the anime really seem to have way more respect for the guy than his actual creator does. Not that that's at all hard.
 
Just gonna cross-post, but I seriously loved this analyse/breakdown!

This just popped into my feed, and I had to post it. Wow. Every single fight (even ones that can't even be called fights) Yamcha gets in Z... and it isn't even over 9 minutes. Sometimes I feel like maybe I've inflated how screwed over all the humans were in Z, but then this proves that no, it's exactly that bad.



That said a few interesting things to note.

1. Yamcha seemingly dead even with Tien in strength during their training on the Lookout.

2. The Saibaman thing was much more of an actual fight than I remember, I tend to remember Saibamen just being these feral, screaming jobbers who don't really have actual moves for some reason, but here we are. Also, Yamcha basically pioneered the Instant Kamehameha right there.

3. I totally forgot this part of the anime filler of them training with King Kai. I feel like this was partly to hype up Piccolo since he's got his Namek stuff coming up, but it's cool that Yamcha's the one who actually manages to land a blow and it actually does something.

4. It's also nice that we actually see Yamcha going from struggling to hold his own against Recoome to trouncing him. That said, I actually would have liked if Yamcha were to fight Burter instead, since it'd be the two fast guys going up against each other. I guess with the numbers and dynamics at play that wouldn't quite work, though.

5. I always had this problem with the movies. Always. Why do you even bother to give the movie villains just the right number of henchmen for the other guys to fight when you just have them job hard and get humiliated, then Goku shows up and just sweeps them instantly, and not even in a cool way since it's always barely even a fight? We get it already, Goku Stronkest, it's established by now, you don't need to fuck over every other member of the cast and cheat them out of a cool fight in just about every movie to convince us of that.

6. The Garlic Junior never did nearly enough with the idea of several of the Z Warriors being turned evil at a time when there's no Goku to just instantly knock out all of them and resolve the fight instantly. 'Cause it's just Yamcha, and this is all he gets.

7. On the one hand, I like the idea of Yamcha and Krillin just goofing around during training sometimes. On the other hand, the Android Saga is where it was pretty much set in stone that Yamcha was essentially worthless as a fighter as far as Toriyama is concerned, so the dumb pratfall just makes the scene lose some of its charm.

8. Wait, how did I forget the scene where Tien and Yamcha are defending Goku from Cell Juniors? Holy shit, that's awesome (and almost certainly only exists in the anime). And he's even allowed to actually hold his own for a while! I mean, it's nothing on Tien holding down Imperfect Cell after he'd made a complete chump of Super Namekian Piccolo, but still.

9. To those who don't remember from that Otherworld Tournament filler, Olibu was basically King Kai's best student before Goku came along, and here's Yamcha giving him a handicap and still dominating. The people who made the anime really seem to have way more respect for the guy than his actual creator does. Not that that's at all hard.

Gosh total mood, and especially for Yamcha and also Chaosu, poor guys :(

Also not sure I linked that video essay on Bulma and Yamcha's relationship, but they did a great breakdown of how blatantly Yamcha was being screwed over, noting that before this it was/could be mismanagement but this was just outright character assassination.

1: That is true, he made astounding progress, and despite some of its flaws the anime does give Yamcha some great moments to shine, subtle though they might be.

2: So true it is very easy to forget but yeah they're skilled little blighters, and ooh neat insight!

3: Yeah I always felt the King Kai stuff was mostly about making Piccolo look good, but that was a fun set of fights regardless.

4: Neat idea there, it is interesting that despite the Crane Schools focus on speed and the Turtle Schools focus on endurance, Yamcha seems more naturally inclined to the former.

5: Gosh yes, I love that the movies give them villains to fight and more character dynamics, but let the other characters do stuff, please! Whenever I toy with movie based AU's, that is always something I do, usually to the point where the minions are actually strong enough that by some (not even all) of them teaming up on Goku he'd get his ass kicked, making it clear he needs the support, just as the villain needs their minions support.

6: Agreed, I'd have loved to see that get more play. I kinda wanna toy with a version of the arc where its actually Piccolo, Gohan and Vegeta (I know he was in space but still) who get taken over and everyone else has to deal with it. Or like, maybe lessen the Spice Boys role a bit (I like them, but still) and have Garlic heavily reliant on his control of the mind controlled heroes who are the main threat.

7: Fair points, aaarg.

8: I seriously adored that scene, it was so nice to see those two fighting side by side with Goku again, defending their friends, its just, so cool.

9: That was always wild to me but has so much fun and potential if used seriously, and yeah overall I agree though they also ran with the "Yamcha flirts with other women while dating Bulma" thing a little which I disliked cos its OOC.
 
Some recent recent talk on SB makes me wanna toss out some of my Yamcha centric ideas, some very self indulgent some less so.

1: My personal classic "How Yamcha accidentally became the main character"

Long story short, the 21 Budokai ends up with mixed up fights from canon. Goku loses to Bacterian (Smell), Krillin to Nam (Nervousness), Roshi to Ranfan (His libido), while Yamcha beats Giran, then Bacterian, and edges out Nam barely. However he doesn't feel he earned the win, which Roshi chastises him for, saying luck plays a role in battle as much as skill or strength and that the tournaments are just a way to gauge one's self nothing but; but adding on that if he wants to defend his title, he could see if Korin will teach him and so after working some stuff out with Bulma he heads off.

Goku still seeks out his four star ball, however in this timeline the moon wasn't blown up and he likely regrows his tail during the tournament, or after it when Nimbus gets blown up, with the transformation possibly dragging out his search and being see by either Silver, White or Blue who report it to Red who has a confab with Gero and they decide a kaiju sized monkey would be a great weapon and resolve to hire Tao to kidnap him as well as gather the DBs.

Yamcha's been training with Bora this whole time and helping chase off the local Red Ribbon Army, Goku arrives and then Tao does to utterly devastate everyone, with Yamcha only surviving cos he wasn't deemed part of Tao's mission. Yamcha goes up the tower (possibly carrying Upa cos he's not leaving the kid alone) trains, and eventually gets told where the RR base is and that he's "As ready as he's gonna get".

Cue a team invasion, Yamcha defeating Tao, rejecting the man's selfish power centric world view, then them all working together to take down a machine directed Ozaru Goku, go to Baba's where Yamcha also has to face up to his past crimes as a bandit and begins his world trekking journey of training/redemption.

After that things proceed more or less as you'd expect, though probably with more changes down the line.

2: The Snake's Way

Basically post break up with Bulma Yamcha is more than a little listless and lost in himself, wondering if he'll be stong neough to matter int he current fight and having had his only other life goal effectively blow up in his face. He seeks out Baba for advice and even pays, so she decides to send him "up stairs" to someone who might be able to help him, if he avoids offending her sensabilities.

Princess Snake.

Now I may or may not take from the rather grim backstory suggested for her in the DBZ fic Alphabet where she is a 'Hera' who was a princess among the pirates before Bojack took over in a bloody coup and claimed her as his bride, with Zangya and Mamba being her children and the former part of how the Kai's were able to seal Bojack and his elites away with a spell aided by Snake. Or she might have a less depressing backstory, or just a different and unique one, or a mix, like she was a Hera but has no ties to Zangya and Mamba isn't her kid.

Long story short, her connection to hell means she can basically port up training partners for Yamcha, and if she is tied to Bojack's Galaxy Soldiers at all, she could also maybe make a set of ear rings that don't give one power so much as create the potential for the transformation... Provided it doesn't drive you insane or kill you, so it is very much an earned over gifted power up. Yamcha still being rather shy around women and at this stage quite humble probably means they get along well and she can't eat him so maybe something happens there? HE may also just pick up some magic instead. The Galaxy Soldiers may end up as the major threat of the arc, or their own thing.


3: Power ups!

Mostly just two ways to power up a character I kinda liked.

A: Shape Shifting. We've seen characters increase their power by bulking up but increase their mass by such a margin they get too slow to fight. We've seen Tenshinhan grow extra limbs and hyper toughen his body. & of course we've seen honest to goodness shape shifters and fittingly Yamcha is best friends with one. So the basic idea is that he combines elements of the three aforementioned skills and disciplines to subtly transform his body into one that can sustain, withstand and produce higher levels of Ki and reach further in training than is usual. Usually he gets a metal-ish bod but that isn't strictly necessary.

B: So I know the flame Spirit from Attack of the Sayians isn't much but here's my idea. The flame spirit is a possession based entity, and it enhances whoever it attaches itself too, but not by its own power, no, it inflames their body and soul, adding at least half again their own power to themselves and granting some cool kick ass fire powers.

4: A Different Future:

This idea is one I have discussed in private, but remember how in the original manga Trunks was actually warning about 19 and 20? Well this sorta takes that and plays around a bit. This is a future timeline where Goku died of the heart virus and 19 and 20 are incoming, but no one knows it. In fact the major concern is Vegeta because his response to Goku dying was to go to the valley where they first fought and having a temper tantrum where he destroyed the entire area and brushed up against Super Sayian before.

Tenshinhan, understandably concerned he might turn on them if he becoems so strong even Piccolo wouldn't be able to hold him back, let alone stop him, goes to Yamcha (Sending Chaozu to get Krillin) insisting they need to train and even share techniques if they want to be strong enough to defend the planet Goku save for them. Yamcha thinks he's being dramatic, but to put his mind at ease suggests they visit Baba before bothering krillen to ask about dangers in the future. First they ask about Vegeta and get told along the lines of:

Baba: "I see rage, I see violence and destruction and chaos, even at the best of times, I see a dangerous liability."
Yancha: "Not exactly the ringing endorsement I was hoping for."
Tenshinhan: "Why are you so insistent on tolerating him?"
Yamcha: "I'm trying to see the good in people, sue me."

After that Baba looks for more overt threats and her crystal ball fizzles out after showing everyone dying and Yamcha dying twice in two different ways "Why did you show me twice!?" and cities being torn to shreds. She doesn't know when, or how, but she knows danger is coming.

Yup it is 19 and 20.

This story could either basically involve just 19 and 20 being the major threats, basically operating less as fighters and more like assassins intent on tormenting and stealth killing the Z Fighters, thus allowing them to not be too OP while still being a threat.
OR
It also has Gero have basically rebuilt several forever Red Ribbon Army folks (including Violet who is not happy about it) to act as his subordinates, as they gather energy to awaken his greatest creation, Android 16 to finally take over the world.


5: The Wrong Survivor

Long story short, Yamcha survives the battle with the Androids... But Gohan doesn't. He is now the official 'protector of earth' by simple default, with a grief stricken Chichi probably wanting her pound of flesh from the Cyborgs, Bulma willing to hep but thanks to the destruction of her home working on limited resources and Baba either being denied the chance to just bring Goku back to solve the problem, or in hiding.


6: A Helping Wish

Puar, seeing how despondent Yamcha is post Cell Saga/Bojack, decides to try and cheer him up. Byr gathering the DBs and wishing for Yamcha to have the chhance to show his strength and prove his true worth. Shendron says sure and cos Yamcha is so out of it he is keeping his Ki down and so both her and Puar get popped back 300 years to a bit before King Piccolo's first fight with Mutaito.

Cue Yamcha not wanting to change the future, but then having to jump in when he hears people screaming and things going increasingly out there from that stage, with possible ripple effects leading to stuff like a Garlic Junior invasion, possible movie villains showing up, and also they gotta avoid Dabura when he shows up or end up dealing with him (OO)


7: Last One's Standing

I think I suggested this before, but long story short... Goku dies fighting King Piccolo. Tenshinhan also dies being unable to seal him. Yamcha, Bulma, Chichi, Ox King, Shen, Tao and Yajirobe (Plus maybe filler characters though maybe not) are the only one's left with any hope of fighting Piccolo whether they like it or not. I'd be thinking maybe a drawn out section where the cast are basically running interference and fighting as rebels against Piccolo's reign as he slowly begins to expand his army and spread terror,while also enjoying his opulence and more petty cruelties.

Eventually Kami manages to, or decides to get into contact with them, they are unwilling to kill him because they want to bring their friends back, and so will stop others from killing Kami as well. So instead he opts to offer the Hypoerbolic Time Chamber. I am thinking either Yamcha and Tao enter it as the strongest fighters, (also justifying why it doesn't become a team up cos Tao was only ever helping to look out for his own interests) Or Yamcha may have to enter alone due to circumstances, like say Piccolo sensing something is up an sending his army to attack Kami's Palace so everyone else needs to hold it off.

Piccolo may get enough power for a decent final brawl, either by basically pulling an evil Spirit Bomb and having his kids charge him up with power, or he absorbs them all, or maybe the time chamber isn't involved, not sure could go a lot of ways.


8: An old chestnut inspired by Earthling Chronicles.

Yamcha was at the reunion and so joins the fight against Radits, (Tenshinhan could also be there) He is either killed or is the one to make the sacrificial play and so despite Kami being none to subtle he'd have preferred Goku (Hoping to motivate him, by stressing how bad things are and needling his pride) Yamcha is left to be the one to train under King Kai. Fortunately he does have two advantages. The first being that as he lacks a pure heart he won't be spending time learning the Spirit Bomb so he can focus on Kaio-Ken and secondly, his Wolf Fang Fist, while not the same as the Kaio-Ken has several similarities so he takes to the technique even more easily than Goku giving him more time with it and a smoother learning curve.


I have others but I think I'll leave it there for now.
 
Well, Dodoria just becamme a whole lot more interesting thanks to Xenoverse 2:

"In Xenoverse 2, it is revealed that despite his brash personality, he is good to the troops under his command even taking them out to eat when in a good mood which is supported by his treatment of the Future Warrior well when they are his student and/or part of his faction. As a result, he is popular among his men and the more rough and tumble members of the Frieza Force, though many of the more intellectual types tend to favor Zarbon over him. He is also favored over Zarbon who is well known for being somewhat of a perfectionist due to his obsession with beauty, while Dodoria is less concerned with appearances and more willing to get his hands dirty alongside his men making him a better field commander. However, Dodoria can recognize talent and values the Warrior as a subordinate even willing to take their advice, though he also uses their brains to his advantage in order to gain headway with his master Frieza and outdo Zarbon (who is depicted as somewhat of a rival for Dodoria in the Xenoverse series)."

I recall an old idea I had with Cui or Zarbon overhearing about the DBs before Vegeta, intercepting it and silencing everyone involved to go get a wish for themselves, the death of Frieza and eternal beauty respectively.

But now I kinda wanna see one where a subordinate of Doroia overhears the message, scrambles it and takes it to them first, figuring they can use it to gain headway's with Frieza or... dare they dream... Use it against the tyrant?
 
But now I kinda wanna see one where a subordinate of Doroia overhears the message, scrambles it and takes it to them first, figuring they can use it to gain headway's with Frieza or... dare they dream... Use it against the tyrant?

Alternatively, what if Vegeta knew the Ginyus were coming early and he needed all the help he could get, so he not only eventually allies with the Earthlings as per canon but also accepts the offers all three of them separately made to spare Freeza in exchange for their lives? Or at least one of them, anyway.

Though of course if it ever looks like they might get a chance to get back in Freeza's good books without being killed by either him or Vegeta in the process they'll certainly be ready and willing stab him in the back, so if you want them to actually survive past Namek they'd probably have to never get the chance since even accepting their surrender once is pushing it for Vegeta.
 
Alternatively, what if Vegeta knew the Ginyus were coming early and he needed all the help he could get, so he not only eventually allies with the Earthlings as per canon but also accepts the offers all three of them separately made to spare Freeza in exchange for their lives? Or at least one of them, anyway.

Though of course if it ever looks like they might get a chance to get back in Freeza's good books without being killed by either him or Vegeta in the process they'll certainly be ready and willing stab him in the back, so if you want them to actually survive past Namek they'd probably have to never get the chance since even accepting their surrender once is pushing it for Vegeta.
An interesting possibility as well, though due to my lack of interest in Vegeta something I'd probably struggle with more XD.

Funnily I actually id toy with an idea along these lines though only for Cui, with Vegeta agreeing less for any practical reason and more cos he was on an ego trip and liked the idea of being able to stomp all over his now former rival. The story actually would have been a redemption arc (kinda) for Cui while Vegeta only gets worse, as him having someone around all the time to bully and torment just exaggerates his worst traits.

But as to Vegeta getting them on side, yeah, it'd be hard to justify them not trying to get back to Frieza, though I imagine if/when they are seen by the Ginyu they'd be told "Haha, we're messaging Lord Frieza this now, he'll kill you even if you somehow hand delivered him Vegeta and the Dragon Balls." Or maybe have Vegeta keep his scouter and send a recording of whoever submits to him swearing their loyalty to Frieza's ship, so they ccan never go back?
 
Funnily I actually id toy with an idea along these lines though only for Cui, with Vegeta agreeing less for any practical reason and more cos he was on an ego trip and liked the idea of being able to stomp all over his now former rival. The story actually would have been a redemption arc (kinda) for Cui while Vegeta only gets worse, as him having someone around all the time to bully and torment just exaggerates his worst traits.

Seems off to me. Vegeta never really acted that way toward Krillin and Gohan even though they were even weaker than Cui at first and he was driven to team up with them by the same motivation I suggested (i.e. the realization he couldn't get the Dragon Balls from first the Ginyu Force and then Freeza on his own). And given those two played central roles in what Vegeta considered an absolutely humiliating defeat back on Earth - with Krillin in particular having Vegeta's life in his hands and forcing the proud Saiyan prince to beg for mercy - I can't imagine he'd be inclined to treat them better than he's going to treat other allies of convenience who are similarly weaker than him that he's working with for the exact same reason. So if he's not acting like that toward them, it would be weird for him to act that way toward Cui.

But as to Vegeta getting them on side, yeah, it'd be hard to justify them not trying to get back to Frieza, though I imagine if/when they are seen by the Ginyu they'd be told "Haha, we're messaging Lord Frieza this now, he'll kill you even if you somehow hand delivered him Vegeta and the Dragon Balls." Or maybe have Vegeta keep his scouter and send a recording of whoever submits to him swearing their loyalty to Frieza's ship, so they ccan never go back?

Or Vegeta has them directly act against Freeza so that they can't be sure anything they do will wipe the slate clean, even somehow returning the Dragon Balls. Kind of the downside of being a tyrant that rules people through the fear that they'll be killed if they disobey or fail is that once someone commits a "capital offense," they've kind of got nothing left to lose. And while Freeza isn't as cavalier with the lives of his high-ranking henchmen as he is with the disposable grunts, even in canon he was still pretty quick to start throwing around death threats. Even if they suddenly switch to having their own agenda with the Dragon Balls, that just means it's now a three-way alliance of convenience and teeth-clenched teamwork between the Earthlings, whomever is forced to defect, and Vegeta.

Though the issue with that is the balance of power there is (as always in Dragon Ball) skewed; after one Zenkai Vegeta could kill all of them, and the Earthlings aren't even as strong as Cui even after getting their potential unlocked, which means it's just everyone tip-toeing around Vegeta and the Earthlings have nothing in their corner except the fact that they're the ones with the Dragon Ball Radar (and the ability to sense ki, I guess). So for there to be this tense three-way alliance against Freeza I'm now imagining it'd probably need to be part of a larger AU of some kind...
 
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Seems off to me. Vegeta never really acted that way toward Krillin and Gohan even though they were even weaker than Cui at first and he was driven to team up with them by the same motivation I suggested (i.e. the realization he couldn't get the Dragon Balls from first the Ginyu Force and then Freeza on his own). And given those two played central roles in what Vegeta considered an absolutely humiliating defeat back on Earth - with Krillin in particular having Vegeta's life in his hands and forcing the proud Saiyan prince to beg for mercy - I can't imagine he'd be inclined to treat them better than he's going to treat other allies of convenience who are similarly weaker than him that he's working with for the exact same reason. So if he's not acting like that toward them, it would be weird for him to act that way toward Cui.
The main difference is he knows Cui will put up with it (at first) and was doing this not out of fear of Frieza but cos he wanted to feel big, while his alliance with Gohan and Krillen was one of desperate necessity, in the original idea it was just Vegeta wanting to draw out the humiliation of a "Lowly alien who dared think himself the equal to a Sayian." But you raise a fair point, Vegeta probably could be professional if need be.

Or Vegeta has them directly act against Freeza so that they can't be sure anything they do will wipe the slate clean, even somehow returning the Dragon Balls. Kind of the downside of being a tyrant that rules people through the fear that they'll be killed if they disobey or fail is that once someone commits a "capital offense," they've kind of got nothing left to lose. And while Freeza isn't as cavalier with the lives of his high-ranking henchmen as he is with the disposable grunts, even in canon he was still pretty quick to start throwing around death threats. Even if they suddenly switch to having their own agenda with the Dragon Balls, that just means it's now a three-way alliance of convenience and teeth-clenched teamwork between the Earthlings, whomever is forced to defect, and Vegeta.

Though the issue with that is the balance of power there is (as always in Dragon Ball) skewed; after one Zenkai Vegeta could kill all of them, and the Earthlings aren't even as strong as Cui even after getting their potential unlocked, which means it's just everyone tip-toeing around Vegeta and the Earthlings have nothing in their corner except the fact that they're the ones with the Dragon Ball Radar (and the ability to sense ki, I guess). So for there to be this tense three-way alliance against Freeza I'm now imagining it'd probably need to be part of a larger AU of some kind...
Also possible, though I couldn't that method would be risky as they could just run back to Frieza before he knew they betrayed him.

Fair insights there, (aag Zenkai I hate that Namek era plot contrivance so much XD) You could always have Guru awaken their potentials out of necessity I guess, but then the Ginyu's become irrelevant. I still like the none Vegeta versions but I am biased XD. A wider ranging AU does sound interesting....

Cooler.

In some games Cui is acting as a spy for Cooler I think, and Zarbon tries to secure the Dragon Balls by setting off a fight between the brothers, this gives the story the (Stronger than the Ginyu's) Armor Squadron, boosting the number of antagonists, while also keeping Frieza busy and and ensuring even Vegeta has to be careful cos Cooler is much more skilled than Frieza, meaning they all have to be more stealthy and subtle, while also needing all the help they can get.

Though yeah maybe the earth cast needs to be changed up a bit? Honestly just Chaosu or Krilli n or Piccolo are enough cause to try going to Namek, and Tenshinhan at least could probably pick up the Kaio-ken from observation and practice so he could be a more major player than any of the other earth side characters besides Goku and Fused Piccolo.

You could also have like, maybe some of the cast enter the time chamber before leaving so they are stronger then they arrive?

EDIT:

OK, you could also change the earth invasion, so different characters survive or die. Like of Gohan dies Chichi wants to go to Namek and convinces whoever survived to train her in the time chamber, which also slows down their progress enough that they aren't super OP once they get to Namek but still impressively powerful and thus able to be relevant. (Or just having them go into the chamber for some other reason, fear of running across Vegeta maybe?)

You could also have the earth invasion be Cui or Dodoria or Zarbon's secret thing, with Vegeta only hearing about all this belated once the scrambled message makes it way to him and is unscrambled, so his rebellion against Frieza involves Nappa and he sneaking off to Namek, never having met the cast yet.
 
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Just thought of an idea where between Z and Super Hercule goes into semi-retirement, and Videl takes over the Satan dojo.

Also, after taking over she begins to bring some of Gohan's work into her teachings, since he is the one who eventually makes knowledge of ki more widespread. This of course would mean that Videl kept training in ki techniques after the Buu Sage, even studying under some of the other Z warriors. So you could have different stories about Videl studying under Goku, Piccolo ... geez, Videl studying under Roshi.

Gohan and Videl's relationship could also make an interesting inverse of Goku and ChiChi's marriage, where it's the wife who's always going off to train.
 
So, like martial arts studios/dojos in the West IRL

except, not as bad at teaching actual combat technique

Pretty much. Fits both the fact that he is still a legit if not "traditional" martial artist, but also his slightly dodgy (let's not forget that this is a guy who's fully willing to bribe people to throw fights to him to keep his title decades longer than he should) and certainly very performative and commercialized approach to his fame as a martial artist.

EDIT: And I'm almost positive that, even before that, he had more than a little to do with the changing of how the tournament works so that the defending champion doesn't have to participate in any matches until the very end, when the person who won in the finals round has to face the champion, fresh, after going through like 4 previous fights.
 
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As far as I know it is a legitimate dojo, but he hasn't really treated it as one in years.

Did it ever say anywhere that he actually took over Satan Castle, though? He was just a student there and this was before he got his big break, so I'm not sure he'd have been able to just inherit it or anything.

Also, looking at the wiki, according to Dragon Ball Online he started going into straight-up con artist territory later in life:

In the background story of the computer game Dragon Ball Online, Mr. Satan announces his retirement from the world of martial arts in Age 793. His official reason for retiring is to give the next generation a chance. However, the truth is that it became impossible for him to continue rigging the tournament without his partner Mr. Buu.

Mr. Satan then starts the Telecommunicated Satan-style Martial Arts Course in an attempt to make money. As the videos were just overpriced rip-offs that featured flashy fight scenes enhanced through special effects, customer claims that the Telecommunicated Satan-style Martial Arts Course is worthless rapidly spread. Disgruntled costumers flood Satan House in Age 794, prompting Pan to subdue them. The event becomes a big scandal and the Telecommunicated Satan-style Martial Arts Course is then renamed the Pan Fighting Network, with Pan as the instructor.

EDIT: Pan would've been 15 at that point, BTW, meaning Hercule was rigging the World Martial Arts Tournament for like 20 years in all. I... really don't like that part of his character at all, I have to say. It continues to baffle that no one in-universe has any problem with letting him get away with that. Letting him take the credit for their heroics? Sure, whatever, it's not like they want the fame, but letting him continue to keep the title of world champion long after the point where he can't even keep it legitimately without Z Fighter intervention and needs to rig it with a ringer?
 
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EDIT: Pan would've been 15 at that point, BTW, meaning Hercule was rigging the World Martial Arts Tournament for like 20 years in all. I... really don't like that part of his character at all, I have to say. It continues to baffle that no one in-universe has any problem with letting him get away with that. Letting him take the credit for their heroics? Sure, whatever, it's not like they want the fame, but letting him continue to keep the title of world champion long after the point where he can't even keep it legitimately without Z Fighter intervention and needs to rig it with a ringer?
Honestly, I never really got Satan's popularity among fans, he feels like the embodiment of half the stuff I find annoying about later DB, from the significantly more boring earth, to the ignorant populace and generally making a joke out of stuff that once mattered, along with the characters and narratives contorting to justify his continued success and acceptance despite his dishonorable methods.

Plus, given the characters always fought int he tournaments, I find the excuse "They didn't want fame so they let him have it"... Weird. Like some of them maybe weren't interested in being famous, but barring maybe Tenshinhan and Piccolo who like their space, I don't think the rest would really care one way or the other, or may even enjoy it.

Also I am suddenly reminded of an AU idea where it gets found out Satan was a fraud a month or two after he built his mansion when the truth about Gohan comes out, leading to his eventual passing for one reason or another and Videl growing up with a grudge against Gohan.

I had some slight expansions on the idea.

Namely, Satan tried to use lawyers and his public persona to beat back against the truth and also tried to use Videl to garner sympathy by having her nearby at press conferences, but an enraged former rival (One of those guys Babiki took over) who always insisted Satan cheated him ends up throwing something dangerous at him, he slaps it out of the air and it hits Videl scarring her and Hercule ends up legit killing the guy and triggering a riot, leading he and Videl to go on the run. He insists she must forsake him, his name and everything to do with him, leaves her a hidden bank account and dies, either succumbing to injuries or possibly committing suicide.

Videl refuses to do this, instead using his money to hunt down legitimate Ki martial artists (IE the Crane School and maybe others) and demanding they teach her for pay and her services (IE helping with mercenary work in Tao's case maybe?) She surpassed her masters relatively quickly, training madly, and used their connections to have stuff like a gravity machine stolen from Capsule Corp, maybe bribed Baba to let her see techniques or training in her crystal ball ETC.

Long story short she arrives at the 27th world tournament where Gohan is still reigning champ (Vegeta or Piccolo and maybe Tenshinhan via Shin Kikoho could claim it but don't bother) with intent n announcing her identity, admitting yes her father was a liar, but that she intends to redeem her family Dojo/Gyms name by legitimately defeating Gohan and unveiling herself to be terrifyingly powerful even by SSJ standards.
 
Honestly, I never really got Satan's popularity among fans, he feels like the embodiment of half the stuff I find annoying about later DB, from the significantly more boring earth, to the ignorant populace and generally making a joke out of stuff that once mattered, along with the characters and narratives contorting to justify his continued success and acceptance despite his dishonorable methods.

I mean, he's legitimately funny and even a charming, sympathetic character at times, and I actually don't mind stuff like him not actually being anywhere near the strongest person on Earth yet being regarded as Earth's champion because no one else cares to claim the credit. The part where he won those first tournaments totally legitimately otherwise (even if, sure, he got lucky at times in his career) helped with that a lot.

It's really just when his straight-up rigging what are supposed to be serious martial arts competitions and then apparently going on to knowingly scam people with phony martial arts lessons is all treated as the same kind of "oh ha ha, he so funny" that I start to dislike it. This is kind of just a personal thing, because as a big martial arts fan I kind of don't like the idea that I'm supposed to find nothing wrong with the fact that Mr. Satan isn't just claiming credit for beating some alien bug-man in a death match when the people who actually did it just left without a word, but is actively committing fraud to keep winning his phony championships, all so he can keep making money from prizes and endorsements.

Plus, given the characters always fought int he tournaments, I find the excuse "They didn't want fame so they let him have it"... Weird. Like some of them maybe weren't interested in being famous, but barring maybe Tenshinhan and Piccolo who like their space, I don't think the rest would really care one way or the other, or may even enjoy it.

Right? Remember the first tournament in the series, where the heroes were so excited to be going up against the best martial artists in the world, and it was talked up as this big cool thing that people trained their entire lives in the hopes of getting to compete in? Yeah, I totally get why none of them see any problem at all in letting Mr. Satan screw over every other hopeful contender in that same position that they were once in for decades by having an out-of-context ringer sweep all the competition and then take a dive. Yep, very legit.

(Oh, and when he finally retires because Buu's got other shit to do than fake losses to keep his belt, he then gets to play it off as magnanimously letting the next generation have a shot and presumably be praised for being such a sporting class act. Gag me)

I certainly get them not being interested in competing anymore; by the 23rd tournament their own inner circle were so far above the rest of the competition that there was no real point anymore. But as someone who absolutely loved every World Martial Arts Tournament in the first series and then saw what it had become by the Buu Saga was... Rough. The preliminary rounds replaced by a glorified arcade game, the setup has changed to blatantly and unfairly favor the returning champion by letting him fight fresh against someone who's run the whole gauntlet in that same day and he only has to win that one fight to keep the belt, and in general the whole thing somehow felt more like a joke than the tournament where one fighter's special advantage was his unholy stink and anothers special technique was stripping down to her underwear, and a much less funny one at that.
 
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I mean, he's legitimately funny and even a charming, sympathetic character at times, and I actually don't mind stuff like him not actually being anywhere near the strongest person on Earth yet being regarded as Earth's champion because no one else cares to claim the credit. The part where he won those first tournaments totally legitimately otherwise (even if, sure, he got lucky at times in his career) helped with that a lot.

It's really just when his straight-up rigging what are supposed to be serious martial arts competitions and then apparently going on to knowingly scam people with phony martial arts lessons is all treated as the same kind of "oh ha ha, he so funny" that I start to dislike it. This is kind of just a personal thing, because as a big martial arts fan I kind of don't like the idea that I'm supposed to find nothing wrong with the fact that Mr. Satan isn't just claiming credit for beating some alien bug-man in a death match when the people who actually did it just left without a word, but is actively committing fraud to keep winning his phony championships, all so he can keep making money from prizes and endorsements.
I guess I just dislike the gag and its affect on the rest of the setting to work, IE everyone on earth being stupid and ignorant and boring. I liked DB earth, it was wackier but weirdly felt more real and lived in.

Yeah that's fair, I don't find it odd for his character admittedly, but it definitely isn't endearing.

Right? Remember the first tournament in the series, where the heroes were so excited to be going up against the best martial artists in the world, and it was talked up as this big cool thing that people trained their entire lives in the hopes of getting to compete in? Yeah, I totally get why none of them see any problem at all in letting Mr. Satan screw over those people for decades by having an out-of-context ringer sweep all the competition and then take a dive. Yep, very legit.

I certainly get them not being interested in competing anymore; by the 23rd tournament their own inner circle were so far above the rest of the competition that there was no real point anymore. But as someone who absolutely loved every World Martial Arts Tournament in the first series and then saw what it had become by the Buu Saga was... Rough. The preliminary rounds replaced by a glorified arcade game, the setup has changed to blatantly and unfairly favor the returning champion by letting him fight fresh against someone who's run the whole gauntlet in that same day and he only has to win that one fight to keep the belt, and in general the whole thing somehow felt more like a joke than the tournament where one finalist's special advantage was his unholy stink and anothers special technique was stripping down to her underwear, and a much less funny one at that.
Really well said there, it makes his actions even worse and more disheartening in that regard, legit hard working martial artists being swept aside and having their ambitions crushed just so Satan can keep making money.

Yeah it makes sense most wouldn't care anymore, though as TFS Yamcha and Krillin noted "Prize money" could be a motive XD And yeah wow, I had forgotten some of these details, I always regarded Satan as having commercialized it a ton, but yeah its also basically super rigged too, its all in all very unpleasant.
 
Did it ever say anywhere that he actually took over Satan Castle, though? He was just a student there and this was before he got his big break, so I'm not sure he'd have been able to just inherit it or anything.
He was the head student when the master died, second in charge becomes person in charge when the previous one dies unless the whole thing disbands.
 
I guess I just dislike the gag and its affect on the rest of the setting to work, IE everyone on earth being stupid and ignorant and boring. I liked DB earth, it was wackier but weirdly felt more real and lived in.

Yeah that's fair, I don't find it odd for his character admittedly, but it definitely isn't endearing.


Really well said there, it makes his actions even worse and more disheartening in that regard, legit hard working martial artists being swept aside and having their ambitions crushed just so Satan can keep making money.

Yeah it makes sense most wouldn't care anymore, though as TFS Yamcha and Krillin noted "Prize money" could be a motive XD And yeah wow, I had forgotten some of these details, I always regarded Satan as having commercialized it a ton, but yeah its also basically super rigged too, its all in all very unpleasant.

It makes me feel so bad for the Announcer, too. The guy always very obviously loved his job and martial arts, and he makes pretty clear when he talks to Goku that he knows Satan's a liar who doesn't hold a candle to Goku and that the tournaments aren't half as good as they used to be in terms of actual martial arts, and yet he's still got to do his best to hype up this fraud who's constantly talking shit about all those amazing battles we saw in the first series and the techniques those previous competitors spent years learning and mastering as "tricks."

He was the head student when the master died, second in charge becomes person in charge when the previous one dies unless the whole thing disbands.

Well alright then.
 
You know, I think one of the tricky things about DBZ era AU's is that the arcs are mostly just a couple of spread out big fights and a couple of minor one's with such massive jumps in power its hard to make the story work without either risking a bad end or just rolling over certain characters. Plus people usually insist on keeping Vegeta (I don't but still) and he gets the lion share of minor fights so it leaves everyone else with little to do in-between set pieces beyond just move around and not die.

It makes me feel so bad for the Announcer, too. The guy always very obviously loved his job and martial arts, and he makes pretty clear when he talks to Goku that he knows Satan's a liar who doesn't hold a candle to Goku and that the tournaments aren't half as good as they used to be in terms of actual martial arts, and yet he's still got to do his best to hype up this fraud who's constantly talking shit about all those amazing battles we saw in the first series and the techniques those previous competitors spent years learning and mastering as "tricks."
Ooof yeah, well said, it is real depressing and he's basically stuck doing that forever as well, its a real shame, just another thing I don't like about how things went :(
 
You know, I think one of the tricky things about DBZ era AU's is that the arcs are mostly just a couple of spread out big fights and a couple of minor one's with such massive jumps in power its hard to make the story work without either risking a bad end or just rolling over certain characters. Plus people usually insist on keeping Vegeta (I don't but still) and he gets the lion share of minor fights so it leaves everyone else with little to do in-between set pieces beyond just move around and not die.

Definitely, yeah. Part of the solution is just throwing out canon notions/portrayals of Power Levels entirely. As Plague of Gripes points out in his video rant about power levels, Super also sort of took that approach and sort of adopted a hierarchy of tiers of power instead, and differences in strength between those tiers are big but not just flat-out insurmountable anymore, up to a certain point of course.

Like, if we were still working off of Dragon Ball Z rules about differences in power, that cool Goku vs Krillin fight where Krillin actually maanges to hold his own even after Goku goes Super Saiyan? Would never have been even remotely possible, unless Toriyama pulled out some magic power-up device that he was actually willing to give to someone who wasn't a Saiyan or Piccolo for once. It sacrifices being wholly consistent with how things have been portrayed in the past for, you know, not making almost every character in this diverse cast worthless in a fight. I feel like the execution of it is still a bit rough, but you get what I'm talking about, and it is at least a big improvement (... until Jiren becomes a thing and is just so strong that he can somehow just muscle through time-stop powers. Because that's such a fun and interesting way to defeat one of the few guys in this whole series whose powers and techniques were something more fresh and original than "fly fast, punch hard, throw energy blasts").

And for some of the arcs you can do a lot of pad out the number of opponents so everybody gets something to do by judiciously adding in assorted movie villains (Androids 13-15 could be released by Gero when he and 19 fail, and then he resorts to 17 and 18 because he's out of options, for example), characters who got thought up later (Shisami and Tagoma being on Namek, maybe?), or just by twisting a few things from canon.

For example, one idea I had a while ago is Nappa being more Saibaman-happy than in canon and just strewing a bunch of them around to unleash mayhem for a good laugh, maybe even throwing in some weaker and stronger variants like in some of the video games (IMO none of them should be stronger than a power level of about 2,000, though). If you're powering up the Z Fighters (or just generally leveling the playing field by not making power levels so quickly become insurmountable hurdles), it's a good way to keep the Saiyan Saga a desperate struggle even if everyone could potentially just dog-pile Nappa and have a good chance of overwhelming him. Even if the Saibamen are no longer threatening individually, a small army of the self-destructing bastards would still be a serious hazard.
 
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