Dragon Ball, DBZ and DBGT Ideas, Discussion, and Recommendation Thread

[Leingod]

Crossposting an idea I had that I brought up on the SB thread, TLDR version is that it's an idea for a Demon OC/SI that learned martial arts from Mutaito centuries and now wants to train people in it, using this one filler episode from the OG series as a launch point:

I remember I had an idea for an SI where the MC is a Demon, utilizing that filler thing with Shula and the gate he opened. They'd have lime-green skin and be named "Citrin," which is both a kind of citrus fruit and a part of Vemacitrin, the name of a Buddhist asura. And they'd "take over" Satan Castle as the master of the future Mr. Satan's master (purely because I think it fits the name so well).

I also had this idea that uses the filler thing where this old couple initially take in the newborn Piccolo Junior as a play on the Superman thing, but before Piccolo can burn their house down and run off into the wilderness the SI shows up to keep him in line and convinces Piccolo to accept him as a mentor, trying to help him work toward letting go of his father's vendetta and becoming his own person instead of just King Piccolo reborn. Sort of like a reversed take on the Piccolo/Gohan mentorship dynamic.

Like, imagine a Piccolo who grew up raised by a pair of old farmers, and they're just cheering him on in the stands during the tournament as he tries to play the big villain intent on conquering the world but his heart's already really not in it and he's only really still holding onto the vendetta against Goku. I think that'd be fun.

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Had some new/more developed ideas for this.

Starting all the way back in Age 461 (maybe move it back a year to make this flow better), to when the Nameless Namek first split apart into Kami and King Piccolo. King Piccolo enters the Demon World - either of his own accord, or perhaps Kami attempts to banish him there - through the gate that Goku later encounters in a filler episode of the original series. The reason demons are guarding the gate is not so much to keep demons or humans from intruding on either world, but rather that they just want the gate to stay closed because Ki from the Living World is very different from Ki from the Demon World (which is also called "Dark Energy" in stuff like the Heroes games). Demon physiology is well-adapted to Dark Energy, but not to Ki; as a result, demons stuck in the Living World are much weaker while they're there (or, looking at it another way, are greatly strengthened by Dark Energy).

Wiki link to the filler episode in question: Goku Goes to Demon Land

Anyway, the future King Piccolo goes through the gate, and whether through apathy with their job or because they can sense the evil in his heart and figure he'll make a decent demon, the guards let him go on his way. So he goes deep into Demon World, gets exposed to enough Dark Energy to become a demon, and then goes back to the Living World intent on his using his newfound strength to conquer it, not realizing he'll be much weakened once he's through (maybe he threatens/intimidates/attacks the guards and so they won't let him come back in).

Some years later, the door opens again, and the guards ready themselves only to find it's an Earthling. Specifically, it's Master Mutaito, who's tried and failed to fight King Piccolo and now has gone on that years-long journey where Roshi doesn't know what he's doing, just that eventually he'll come back with the Evil Containment Wave. A gate to the Demon World would sound like a good place to try to find some kind of weakness, after all. Even with the gate opened, Mutaito isn't strong enough to force his way past the guards, but that's fine because all he wants is information, and the demon in charge of the guards, Shula, finds Mutaito's display of martial arts intriguing and wants to learn them, so they make a deal (this is in keeping with the idea that was present in early DBZ but kind of dropped off, that Earthlings are actually special - not quite unique, but almost so - for having figured out stuff like how to grow appreciably stronger through training rather than relying on innate power). Most of the demons present don't learn much from it - they don't really have the discipline for it - but Shula and a few of his followers, including Melee and Gola, find themselves learning quite a bit from Mutaito and come to respect him a lot by the time he leaves. (This is partly inspired by the way Shula and co. have a more martial arts flavor to them than most of the demons introduced from Z onward, who tend to have much more sorcerous vibes or are just yet more big strong bruisers).

About three centuries later, the Demon King Dabura has been missing for a long time (since Age 474, actually) and doesn't seem like he'll be coming back anytime soon, if he's even still alive. With the Demon World essentially leaderless, nobody really notices that Shula has decided to open up the gate to the Living World and use a cursed sword he found somewhere to keep it open as long as he wants. Shula feels disillusioned with the Earth he sees, having expected something more like Mutaito's stories about the great heroes and martial artists of his own day and a bit pissed that no one even seems to remember Mutaito, and starts taking out his disappointment by letting his mooks fool around and terrorize the locals. Kind of like how Shen got all bitter and went back to being the asshole he was as a teenager, now that I think of it.

But while Shula's doing that, another of his followers - this being Citrin, the character described in the quote above (ditching the SI aspect) - goes out into the world instead to see if there really is no memory of Mutaito and his martial arts left, and deciding that, if there really isn't, then they owe it to him to bring that back. Though, despite that fairly "good guy" goal of wanting to pass on Mutaito's teachings and see martial arts flourish on Earth again (and maybe eventually the Demon World and beyond, too), like a lot of the strongest characters in this franchise I'd probably write Citrin as not really being a clear-cut hero, at least at the start. In this case, Citrin is only really interested in those strong enough to catch their attention, and kind of just ignores everyone else as not worth bothering with. That's something I'd write as a typical worldview for demons, who revere strength above everything else; Citrin most differs by being merely apathetic toward the weak rather than sadistic, and by having at least some concept of strength at something that goes beyond the purely tangible (you don't learn from an old master like Mutaito and still come away convinced that "strength" refers purely to how hard you can punch, is my logic).

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[Zam]

Like, imagine a Piccolo who grew up raised by a pair of old farmers, and they're just cheering him on in the stands during the tournament as he tries to play the big villain intent on conquering the world but his heart's already really not in it and he's only really still holding onto the vendetta against Goku. I think that'd be fun.

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OK this is absolutely adorable and I would one hundred percent enjoy that level of wholesomeness and be deeply amused by how confused everyone else is XD

Demon physiology is well-adapted to Dark Energy, but not to Ki; as a result, demons stuck in the Living World are much weaker while they're there (or, looking at it another way, are greatly strengthened by Dark Energy).

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This is a genius way to explain the relative weakness of those demons and the nature of Dark Energy major props to you on this front, also nice use of filler, that was always one of my favorite filler arcs.

(This is partly inspired by the way Shula and co. have a more martial arts flavor to them than most of the demons introduced from Z onward, who tend to have much more sorcerous vibes or are just yet more big strong bruisers).

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Very clever stuff here, it works very well and makes good use of the inborn power is the standard operating procedure for most of the universe system established in Z and utilizes these particular characters well. Though is Shula still planning o try and marry a little girl cos... URK.

Also, aside, but I wonder if even the Namekians relied on innate power and or assumed that those who could increase their Ki were mutants like Frieza's forces did, even if they could hide their Ki. Might explain why only Nail is so strong and why he seemingly just capped out.

Shula's reaction is disproportionate but its an interesting spin to be sure, nice comparison with Shen.

Nice explanation for Citrin, I think it works well. I wonder if they'd hit if off with Yamcha, the guy was a huge Matrtial Arts Lore buff to the point of being "The Smart Guy" among the fighting cast members for much of the series, always knowing legends or of techniques so he may know of Mutaitio and having made his own Ki attack would maybe catch Citrin's attention.

 

[TheColorPurple]

Okay, so I heard that the recent stuff is good.

...Is it?

Please tell me that it is.

 

[Leingod]

OK this is absolutely adorable and I would one hundred percent enjoy that level of wholesomeness and be deeply amused by how confused everyone else is XD

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It was always interesting to me how the anime added these two filler bits around Piccolo Jr. that, IMO, completely changed the context around him. The first is this Momotaro reference, where Piccolo floats down the river (just in an egg instead of a peach) and is found by an old woman washing her clothes, and the joke is instead of getting the baby as their own Piccolo torches the place and runs off. But then we see him looking on jealously at a little boy celebrating his birthday with his parents; it manifests as spite that he takes out by crashing the party, but it still shows that Piccolo Jr. has a very (for lack of a better term) human desire for that kind of thing, even though it clearly clashes with the memories and drives he's inherited from Demon King Piccolo. It makes Piccolo Jr.'s three years of self-imposed exile as he grew up (physically) and prepared to kill Goku feel pretty sad, like something his "inheritance" left him with what felt like no choice in. Which also makes it more interesting how his idea for training Gohan was to put him through a similar experience, and how as soon as he couldn't put off actually spending time around and talking to Gohan he starts bonding him with him almost immediately without really recognizing it until he finds himself dying for the kid. It makes you think.

But also I think it'd be funny to have this old couple be showing up (having sneaked into the preliminary rooms, for example) to ruin Piccolo's "That's right, I am the Demon King, back from the dead to wreak my vengeance!" mystique by being proud, doting parents to "Junior" and Piccolo telepathically demanding the people whose lives and world he was just threatening to play along with it when they assume he's making new friends or something. Kami's bafflement would be a particular treat.

I think part of the way I'd explain this difference, BTW, is that the Nameless Namek didn't originally actually have that much evil in him. Fury at being treated like a shameful castoff, and then embracing the transformation into a demon through taking in Dark Energy (and also embracing the label of Kami's "Evil Self" as well in a kind of "Better to reign in Hell" moment) played as big a part in what King Piccolo became as anything in his inherent nature. Piccolo Jr. has those memories, but he has it all secondhand; it happened to his "father," not him, even if back when he had nothing but three years training in the wilderness and burning lonely farmsteads the two kind of blended together in his mind, because what else did he know?

In addition, for whatever reason, unlike King Piccolo's other mutant offspring, Piccolo Jr. was born a normal Namekian, not a demonic one. I would personally fanwank that this was a deliberate choice; King Piccolo perhaps thought that becoming a demon (and thus being ill-suited to utilizing the Ki of the Living World) had limited his own potential, and that his "reincarnation" would grow stronger, faster, by being born as a Namekian rather than a demon.

This is a genius way to explain the relative weakness of those demons and the nature of Dark Energy major props to you on this front, also nice use of filler, that was always one of my favorite filler arcs.

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It also makes Dabura seem like he could have been a bigger threat than he was in canon. Even if we assume that the difference in a demon's strength when using Ki vs Dark Energy gets smaller the stronger you become (which is how I'd handle it), it still makes you wonder how much stronger Dabura would have been if he hadn't declined Babidi's offer to transport the fight to a place that would give him an advantage like he had for Pui-Pui and Yakkon ("Perhaps a planet similar to this one. I don't want unfair advantages.").

Very clever stuff here, it works very well and makes good use of the inborn power is the standard operating procedure for most of the universe system established in Z and utilizes these particular characters well. Though is Shula still planning o try and marry a little girl cos... URK.

Also, aside, but I wonder if even the Namekians relied on innate power and or assumed that those who could increase their Ki were mutants like Frieza's forces did, even if they could hide their Ki. Might explain why only Nail is so strong and why he seemingly just capped out.

Shula's reaction is disproportionate but its an interesting spin to be sure, nice comparison with Shen.

Nice explanation for Citrin, I think it works well. I wonder if they'd hit if off with Yamcha, the guy was a huge Matrtial Arts Lore buff to the point of being "The Smart Guy" among the fighting cast members for much of the series, always knowing legends or of techniques so he may know of Mutaitio and having made his own Ki attack would maybe catch Citrin's attention.

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I think I'd make the thing with Princess Misa just Shula jerking them around. Like, he hears that this is apparently what Earthlings think demons do, so sure, grab the girl and let's hold a "wedding," make them sweat it out a bit. That's probably the territory I'd put most of his "reign of terror" in; not really killing anyone or doing anything super heinous, mostly just scaring the crap out of them and causing property damage.

On the Namekians, maybe. The original manga claimed that Nail was the only Warrior Clan Namekian on the planet, and even later sources only brought that up to 15 total, so perhaps what actually happened is that most of Namek's martial traditions were lost over time by cataclysms like the great drought that almost wiped them out, combined with their long isolationism that meant there just wasn't much need for many new Warrior Clan Namekians to be born or to pass on what they knew.

And yeah, Yamcha being a martial arts fanboy is something I'd give a lot more play, it's a side of him I always liked (mostly because it's very relatable to me), but I'd also use it to kind of flesh out more of the world and characters by having Citrin spend a lot of time with filler stuff and minor characters like King Chappa and Namu.

Also, there's my idea of Citrin taking over Satan's Castle (because, you know, the name) after beating Mr. Satan's master and becoming his master. I actually have some ideas for what kind of person I'd make the original master of Satan's Castle that I quite like, but this is getting to be a pretty long post as-is.

 

[Zam]

It was always interesting to me how the anime added these two filler bits around Piccolo Jr. that, IMO, completely changed the context around him.

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Neat insights regarding his & Gohan's relationship and wow I forgot that the old people scene even was filler XD But yeah its an intriguing idea, to inherent such destructive tendencies but at the same time to long for love and affection.

But also I think it'd be funny to have this old couple be showing up (having sneaked into the preliminary rooms, for example) to ruin Piccolo's "That's right, I am the Demon King, back from the dead to wreak my vengeance!" mystique by being proud, doting parents to "Junior" and Piccolo telepathically demanding the people whose lives and world he was just threatening to play along with it when they assume he's making new friends or something. Kami's bafflement would be a particular treat.

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I think Piccolo only did that speech after his antenna got revealed in the final fight, though he was glowering ominously at Goku and co so do you mean that? Whatever the case, hilarious and adorable. Though I wonder if Kami would know? (I may be thinking too much of Eclipse's Kami where he kidnapped a young Piccolo to take him to the after life dentist though XD)

In addition, for whatever reason, unlike King Piccolo's other mutant offspring, Piccolo Jr. was born a normal Namekian, not a demonic one. I would personally fanwank that this was a deliberate choice; King Piccolo perhaps thought that becoming a demon (and thus being ill-suited to utilizing the Ki of the Living World) had limited his own potential, and that his "reincarnation" would grow stronger, faster, by being born as a Namekian rather than a demon.

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Its all certainly an interesting way to read and play both characters, so major props there.

It also makes Dabura seem like he could have been a bigger threat than he was in canon. Even if we assume that the difference in a demon's strength when using Ki vs Dark Energy gets smaller the stronger you become (which is how I'd handle it), it still makes you wonder how much stronger Dabura would have been if he hadn't declined Babidi's offer to transport the fight to a place that would give him an advantage like he had for Pui-Pui and Yakkon ("Perhaps a planet similar to this one. I don't want unfair advantages.").

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Oooh nice work here, ang that really does play well with your world building and yeah I think it'd work to make him feel more impressive and engaging, he always felt like missed potential to me anyway. Honestly though you go time imagining Babaidi sending him to the Demon Realm anyway and his sister showing up to be like "Where the fuck have you been!? What's that shit on your forehead- Are- Are you possessed!?"

I think I'd make the thing with Princess Misa just Shula jerking them around. Like, he hears that this is apparently what Earthlings think demons do, so sure, grab the girl and let's hold a "wedding," make them sweat it out a bit. That's probably the territory I'd put most of his "reign of terror" in; not really killing anyone or doing anything super heinous, mostly just scaring the crap out of them and causing property damage.

On the Namekians, maybe. The original manga claimed that Nail was the only Warrior Clan Namekian on the planet, and even later sources only brought that up to 15 total, so perhaps what actually happened is that most of Namek's martial traditions were lost over time by cataclysms like the great drought that almost wiped them out, combined with their long isolationism that meant there just wasn't much need for many new Warrior Clan Namekians to be born or to pass on what they knew.

And yeah, Yamcha being a martial arts fanboy is something I'd give a lot more play, it's a side of him I always liked (mostly because it's very relatable to me), but I'd also use it to kind of flesh out more of the world and characters by having Citrin spend a lot of time with filler stuff and minor characters like King Chappa and Namu.

Also, there's my idea of Citrin taking over Satan's Castle (because, you know, the name) after beating Mr. Satan's master and becoming his master. I actually have some ideas for what kind of person I'd make the original master of Satan's Castle that I quite like, but this is getting to be a pretty long post as-is.

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That makes sense and smooths things over well.

Oooh that scans well. Also makes one of my "Nail fuses with some other warriors" idea more plausible but not overly simple, though also wow, 3000 and not even warriors? Neat XD

Yaaay, I love Yamcha getting some positive focus and that works well for him. Also ooh would he swing by that town Goku went too with the two competing schools?

Can't offer much there, though given he and Satan mocked Tao's hair I'd assume he's kind of an asshole and has some very weird/'traditional' ideas.

 

[Leingod]

Can't offer much there, though given he and Satan mocked Tao's hair I'd assume he's kind of an asshole and has some very weird/'traditional' ideas.

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Well, that's a good enough excuse for me to start talking about this OC.

So, going with the old school kung fu flick vibe the OG series had at times, I figured Mark/Mr. Satan's original master should be based on the characters portrayed by one of the few martial artists to appear in film with a good enough afro: Jim Kelly, best known for his breakout role as Williams in Enter the Dragon, and who also starred in a string of later kung fu blaxsploitation movies like Black Belt Jones and Three the Hard Way.


"I don't waste my time with [defeat]. When it comes, I won't even notice... I'll be too busy lookin' good."

"Man, you come right out of a comic book."

A cool, cocky attitude, writes big checks with his mouth he can usually cash until suddenly he mouths off to one of the deadliest men alive and pays with his life. Also he'd probably wear the gaudy gold Chinese-style suit he wears in Three the Hard Way when he isn't wearing the bright yellow gi.

Anyway, Jim Kelly himself was both the real deal as a martial artist - he won four prestigious karate championships in 1971 alone - he was also an all-around accomplished athlete, having played football in high school and college and actually being a professional tennis player at the same time he was sweeping karate tournaments.

So, taking inspiration from that, the original master of Satan's Castle (not quite sure yet what I'll call him, but definitely some kind of diabolical pun) would similarly be a legitimately great martial artist (albeit obviously no match for the likes of Tao, but how many are?), a pro athlete (maybe baseball, and he ends up being the one to teach Yamcha the game?), and a budding film star, who perhaps understandably has a bit of a swelled head and a bad habit of talking smack, but is still a pretty good guy at heart, and probably considered a hometown hero in Orange Star City. Basically the Might Guy to Mark's Rock Lee.

I think how I'd write it is that it's the first major city Citrin finds, and he asks around for the strongest fighter and gets pointed to Satan's Castle, and some smack is talked, the guy shows off his prowess, Citrin is only mildly impressed, they make a bet where the winner gets the dojo and the loser has to acknowledge him as his master, and obviously the demon trained by Master Mutaito wins. After that, Citrin being mostly ignorant of a lot of Earth and Earthling society, and not really having much experience or idea with how to get people interested in learning martial arts or teaching them, he'd sort of become both the publicist and the idea guy; he'd be the one suggesting Citrin do stuff like drop in to throw down the gauntlet on guys like King Chappa to bring them to a tournament to grab attention.

 

[Zam]

Well, that's a good enough excuse for me to start talking about this OC.

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Fair XD

Anyway having read it over I think this scans well as the sort of person who would have trained Satan and ties together their whole theme and vibe very effectively, the way this utilizes Citirin also works rather neatly, so yeah, major props and kudos! The idea of him having hung with Yamcha at one point works well given Yamcha went around challenging Dojo's for training pre 21 Budokai.

 

[Leingod]

Been thinking about little additions or AU elements to throw into OG Dragon Ball shenanigans. You know, when there was more of a wild adventure kinda vibe to the series. Figured I'd lay out these two big related ones.

The Zodiac Bandit-Kings: A loose coalition of twelve mighty warlords, likely of diverse backgrounds, who all took over their own petty kingdoms to rule over and are now loosely allied with each other against outside threats like the Red Ribbon Army or whatever kind of central authority King Furry might represent, but otherwise usually don't bother with each other. The Ox King is one of them, and Monster Carrot was another. If you want to give him a formal title to go along with "Ox King" I'd probably say his was "Don Rabbit," since he ran the Rabbit Mob.

Incidentally, Dragon Ball Z: Attack of the Saiyans is full of cool stuff you can use, one of which is that Monster Carrot somehow managed to build a spaceship and return to Earth much stronger than before (the game gives him a power level of 938 during the training arc before the Saiyans arrive).

That gives you ten more to work with and serve whatever role you want: Rat, Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Horse, Goat, Monkey, Rooster, Dog, and Pig. Personally, I would make the Dragon the weakest (but strongest looking) and the Rat the strongest (with Ox King in second place), since that's 100% the kind of joke that Toriyama would have made if this were a thing.

Another silly idea to use with this is Goku somehow taking over the Monkey kingdom/gang/whatever by total accident; after all, Sun Wukong became a king of monkeys and his power attracted an alliance of other beastly kings who were drawn to his strength, one of whom was the Bull/Ox Demon King i.e. the inspiration for Ox King.

Red Boy: Speaking of the Bull Demon King, in Journey to the West he is married to Princess Iron Fan (though in Dragon Ball that would be Chi-Chi, who is instead his daughter, though I think @Zam has floated the idea before that Chi-Chi's mother and the Princess Iron Fan stand-in could be An'nin, the original owner of the Banshō Fan according to anime filler, although An'nin is also based on a different character so she'd kind of be double-dipping, but who cares?).

Anyway, in Journey to the West the Bull Demon King and Princess Iron Fan have a son known as Red Boy (Kōgaiji in Japanese), a fiercely independent boy who lives a solitary life away from his parents and reigns over his own kingdom of demons separate from theirs, and whose power over fire was so great that Sun Wukong was almost burned to death and needed to enlist the help of the Bodhisattva Guanyin to defeat him. She places restraining bands similar to the one on Sun Wukong's head on Red Boy's head, wrists and legs, allowing him to be restrained by chanting a mantra, and forces him to become her attendant, giving him the name Sudhana (Shancai in Chinese), a figure of Buddhist myth with a completely different backstory and character, not that Journey to the West ever cared about that.

You might make a second OC child of the Ox King to serve as a Dragon Ball version of Red Boy; his independent streak and solitary life could even be used as an explanation for why he never showed up or was mentioned in canon, though frankly I would just label it an AU and leave it at that. It doesn't have to be a boy, either; I've suggested before that you could make Pao-Pao, a young martial artist who beats up the Orin Temple to prove herself and then loses to Krillin in Attack of the Saiyans, the Ox King's second daughter, making the "prettier, stronger older sister who doesn't have an accent" that Pao-Pao mentions always being compared to Chi-Chi (note they have similar names), which would fit well with Red Boy being independent from his parents and claiming dominion over lesser demons; feeling overlooked at home, Pao-Pao set off to prove herself by beating up famous martial artists and organizations like the Orin Temple to prove herself. Just give her some magical artifact that shoots out fire that can't be put out by water or wind, or maybe a technique to turn her ki into fire or something, and you're good to go.

As an aside, when I first suggested that idea one of the arguments against it was that Pao-Pao must be stronger because she can "use ki" and Chi-Chi supposedly can't. Except just because Chi-Chi never throws out energy blasts or flies doesn't mean she can't use ki, it just means she never learned how to throw energy blasts and fly. That isn't all you use ki for, and there's no reason to believe the Ox King (and Chi-Chi by extension) is totally ignorant of how to use ki just because he never learned the Kamehameha, nor that knowing how to do so means that Pao-Pao is necessarily stronger than Chi-Chi.

Alternatively, you could hearken back to Dragon Ball's two-chapter prototype, Dragon Boy, which had two main characters, a boy martial artist with dragon wings named Tangtong and a bratty unnamed princess of the Flower Kingdom that he had to escort home at his master's orders. See, Guanyin has two attendants: Sudhana/Shancai (whose name means "child of wealth") a.k.a. Red Boy and Longnü ("dragon girl"), who is traditionally the youngest daughter of the Dragon King of the East Sea. You could basically make Tangtong and the princess their own unique characters in Dragon Ball (rather than just proto-Goku and proto-Bulma) and make them reverse-gender versions of Red Boy and Dragon Girl, one as the second daughter of the Ox King (possibly by An'nin) and the other possibly the child of the Dragon of the "Zodiac Bandit-Kings" idea I presented above? Possibly as the two students of some master martial artist based on Guanyin (maybe King Chappa's own master, since Guanyin has a thousand arms and King Chappa's signature move is making it look like he has a bunch of arms?).

 

[Zam]

The Zodiac Bandit-Kings

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This is a super cool concept and vibes really well with the overall setting, though I'd make Ox on the lower end myself, but otherwise agreed and great use of Don Rabbit, that scans especially well given he fought Gohan previously.

Huh, I wonder if Yamcha had aspirations in that regard given he described himself as the Hyena Prince at one point (I think, or maybe just desert prince) and uses a wolf based naming convention for his attacks.

Red Boy:

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Yeah, ages back I wrote but never published an adventure fic where two/three years before the 23rd Budokai, Ox King's cast was flooded with flames again along with angry ghosts. Chichi took some of her dads friends and went on a roundtrip adventure to find a solution and eventually found Annin's Furnace of Eight Divinations.

There Annin revealed she was Chichi's mother having granted Ox King the boon of havign a child with him after he spent a year bringing gifts and prayers, however while he did want a child, he also wanted to sabotage the furnace so a witch friend of his could steal the flames to protect his castle. Annin didn't realize this at first but when she did, she had the flames engulf his home as punishment and is now doing so again to try and force a resolution to the matter, as she can't just 'leave' to go deal with this as she needed to maintain the now very delicate flames to make sure people still make it to the after life.

Chichi fixes the damage done and resolves to stay with Annin for a bit, at the demigods request and cos she needs some space, which is followed by training. Annin may also hope Chichi can deal with Piccolo cos she doesn't trust Kami to do it.

Pao-Pao

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There's some fun ideas here to be sure, I never considered Pao-Pao being the Ox king's kid but it is a neat concept. As for the origins of the flame, that Attack of the Sayians game has Tenshinhan find a fire demon when seeking power and Chaozu gets taken over by it, so that could work maybe, but with less taking over and more bad influence

The bottom idea is interesting but I'm unsure what to do with in the broadstrokes.

 

[Leingod]

A piece of trivia about the Shaolin Temple that can be used to flesh out Orin Temple a bit, reflecting an earlier idea of Krillin potentially going back to reform/strengthen it based on that bit from Attack of the Saiyans where he avenges their loss against Pao-Pao (having totally gotten over how shitty his time there actually was, I suppose).

As I've mentioned elsewhere, "Shaolin" uses characters that translate to "small forest," while Orin basically means "large forest," appropriate for how Shaolin is usually presented in wuxia as one of the dominant powers in the world of martial arts, full of humble, hard-working monks, whereas the Orin Temple's students that we see (and they competed in the World Martial Arts Tournament, so presumably these are supposed to be some of the temple's best) are a bunch of swaggering bullies who can't remotely back up their talk (even discounting the one Krillin beats, the other one is eliminated offscreen, and probably not by Goku or Krillin since we have a montage of them blowing through the prelims and he doesn't appear). Another thing that I've noted before is that people say Krillin's name (Kuririn in Japanese) is a pun on chestnuts (kuri), and while that's true it's only half the joke; the other is that rin is how the Japanese pronounce the lin in "Shaolin" (and also Krillin himself is small). So Krillin's name in Japanese means "chestnut forest."

The Shaolin Temple has a tradition of giving its monks monastic names to use in place of their birth names, and everyone within the same "generation" of the master-student chain (that is, going all the way back in a line of master and disciple to the original students of the first master and founder of Shaolin, Bodhidharma) use a particular character as part of their two-part monastic name. For example, if we took the characters of Krillin's name (栗森), we could make either the kuri or the rin the part that's shared by other monks of the same "generation" as him (which of course can be wildly different from each other in actual age, because it's a master-student chain rather than a parent-child one, which might help explain why his bullies are all so much older than him but were still training alongside him; since this also affects precedence/status, it would also help explain why those other students were singling him out for bullying, since they were forced to acknowledge a little kid as their equal in status).

Personally, I'd ditch the generational aspect but keep the thing about every monk sharing a kanji in common, namely the -rin ending, and then every monk is named after a different kind of fruit or nut, so their names all mean stuff like "apple forest" or "acorn forest." And of course since every kanji can be read like 5 different ways you have some latitude in which to pick. For example the character for "peach" is most commonly read as "momo," but you could also read it as "dou" or "tou," so you'd have the options of Momorin, Dourin, or Tourin. It's a very Dragon Ball style naming convention that also thematically connects any Orin Temple characters you care to invent.

The bottom idea is interesting but I'm unsure what to do with in the broadstrokes.

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Yeah, it's not something I have a really defined idea of what to do with either, it's mostly spitballing on my part because I noticed how you could make that dual-genderflip a thing and use Toriyama's old work as a basis, at least for their looks. Maybe have them become a sort of mirror of Goku and Bulma, and also be looking for the Dragon Balls for whatever reason at the start of the series? I dunno.

 

[Zam]

Yeah, it's not something I have a really defined idea of what to do with either, it's mostly spitballing on my part because I noticed how you could make that dual-genderflip a thing and use Toriyama's old work as a basis, at least for their looks. Maybe have them become a sort of mirror of Goku and Bulma, and also be looking for the Dragon Balls for whatever reason at the start of the series? I dunno.

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It could definitely be fun, I think it would need a sturdy story to hang off of, either like a full on DB AU where the two pairs are in competition, or maybe those two as a sort of successor duo like I've seen dabbled with in future generation fics?

A piece of trivia about the Shaolin Temple that can be used to flesh out Orin Temple a bit, reflecting an earlier idea of Krillin potentially going back to reform/strengthen it based on that bit from Attack of the Saiyans where he avenges their loss against Pao-Pao (having totally gotten over how shitty his time there actually was, I suppose).

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Yeah it was weird Krillin cared, like didn't he initially show up to apologize for beating those guys up? Regardless, I love the world building, the Shaloin VS Orin name comparison an what it reflects, the forest themed naming, that stuff is great, kudos!

 

[Leingod]

Yeah it was weird Krillin cared, like didn't he initially show up to apologize for beating those guys up?

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Not exactly. He happened to be in East City and was feeling nostalgic (for... some reason, the game really doesn't seem to remember the part where they bullied him and kinda treats the Orin Temple like it was the actual Shaolin Temple, weirdly). He notes they might be sore about that, but then he figured they'd have "forgiven [him] by now" for it and that he'd go see what they were up to for old time's sake. I guess he just felt like he kinda owed it to his original master, who asks him to do it?

 

[Zam]

Not exactly.

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Oh I see, well that's far less awful and yeah I can see Krillin having at least some positive relationships there.

 

[Zam]

Off topic aside, but I find the number of people who do "What If's" on Youtube or in fanfiction for Dragon Ball but stubbornly insist on keeping Vegeta around regardless or circumstances or context exhausting.

Sorry, I just saw a "What of Goku went SSJ against the Sayians" idea and its like, showing him cradling a dead Gohan in his hands but you see Vegeta being kept alive in a human hospital after his presumed thrashing.

"WHY!?"

He's no challenge to Goku, so that justification for keeping him around makes no sense, and SSJ is meant to be all rage and fury even if the writing on that was inconsistent so why spare him and more to the point why does anybody else indulge Goku on this? Krillin could barely resist stabbing the guy, no way in hell would more ruthless or angry people like Bulma and Chi-Chi not just smother him in his sleep if we somehow got to this point.

It just pains me that there's so much potential in AU's, but so many I feel suffer because the writers feel obliged to keep Vegeta around.

 

[Leingod]

Off topic aside, but I find the number of people who do "What If's" on Youtube or in fanfiction for Dragon Ball but stubbornly insist on keeping Vegeta around regardless or circumstances or context exhausting.

Sorry, I just saw a "What of Goku went SSJ against the Sayians" idea and its like, showing him cradling a dead Gohan in his hands but you see Vegeta being kept alive in a human hospital after his presumed thrashing.

"WHY!?"

He's no challenge to Goku, so that justification for keeping him around makes no sense, and SSJ is meant to be all rage and fury even if the writing on that was inconsistent so why spare him and more to the point why does anybody else indulge Goku on this? Krillin could barely resist stabbing the guy, no way in hell would more ruthless or angry people like Bulma and Chi-Chi not just smother him in his sleep if we somehow got to this point.

It just pains me that there's so much potential in AU's, but so many I feel suffer because the writers feel obliged to keep Vegeta around.

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I mean, you could argue the same for several characters, like Piccolo or Android 18; there's no real need to single out Vegeta.

Hell, you can even argue for removing Goku entirely, since most people only care about Z onward, and only in OG Dragon Ball was the story ever really about Goku as an actual character and not just as the only fighter allowed to be strong enough to beat the Big Bad (with a single exception). You could 100% build a whole big What If or AU and not have Goku at all.

 

[Zam]

I mean, you could argue the same for several characters, like Piccolo or Android 18; there's no real need to single out Vegeta.

Hell, you can even argue for removing Goku entirely, since most people only care about Z onward, and only in OG Dragon Ball was the story ever really about Goku as an actual character and not just as the only fighter allowed to be strong enough to beat the Big Bad (with a single exception). You could 100% build a whole big What If or AU and not have Goku at all.

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Tat comparison doesn't work, Piccolo actually ha a reason to be kept alive that's pragmatic and the worst thing 18 did was lazily try to kill Goku for like two days.

Yes you could, but my point here is about crowbarring Vegeta into stories regardless of rational context, and often Vege-Bul no matter the circumstances just because and often to the story and everyone else's detriment.

 

[Zam]

@Leingod, a good Piccolo style example of what I am referencing with Vegeta would be people forcing/crowbarring in his redemption arc into stories where it doesn't work or make sense. Like an AU where Gohan is never born, or Piccolo doesn't take him on, or Goku dies several years early and the only thing stopping him from villainy is the threat of someone off-ing Kami ETC. I find those irksome too, but most AU's don't ever start around that stage so it doesn't come up often enough to become a major bug-bear, Vegeta being forcefully kept in a story that he has no reason to be in happens all the time and pains me.

 

[Parth]

Off topic aside, but I find the number of people who do "What If's" on Youtube or in fanfiction for Dragon Ball but stubbornly insist on keeping Vegeta around regardless or circumstances or context exhausting.

Sorry, I just saw a "What of Goku went SSJ against the Sayians" idea and its like, showing him cradling a dead Gohan in his hands but you see Vegeta being kept alive in a human hospital after his presumed thrashing.

"WHY!?"

He's no challenge to Goku, so that justification for keeping him around makes no sense, and SSJ is meant to be all rage and fury even if the writing on that was inconsistent so why spare him and more to the point why does anybody else indulge Goku on this? Krillin could barely resist stabbing the guy, no way in hell would more ruthless or angry people like Bulma and Chi-Chi not just smother him in his sleep if we somehow got to this point.

It just pains me that there's so much potential in AU's, but so many I feel suffer because the writers feel obliged to keep Vegeta around.

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For pretty much the same reason why Goku spared Frieza after watching him kill Krillin right in front of him.

That's literally Goku's character. Goku tends to spare the villains when he literally has no reason not to. Despite what people believe Goku isn't a good guy, yes he loves Chi chi and Gohan, but he doesn't care about them. So Vegeta killing Gohan might be enough to make him go SSJ but it wouldn't be enough to make him kill him.

 

[Zam]

For pretty much the same reason why Goku spared Frieza after watching him kill Krillin right in front of him.

That's literally Goku's character. Goku tends to spare the villains when he literally has no reason not to. Despite what people believe Goku isn't a good guy, yes he loves Chi chi and Gohan, but he doesn't care about them. So Vegeta killing Gohan might be enough to make him go SSJ but it wouldn't be enough to make him kill him.

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This is honestly a read on the character I simply can't agree with, even remotely, Goku sparing Frieza felt entirely incoherent and wasn't even explained in the text.

In the past he wasted the likes of Tao Pai Pai, Tambourine and King Piccolo because they were problems and or he was pissed at them. He even helped merc his own brother cos it was what needed to be done.

Goku sparing villains for no reason and without a care is literally something tacked on at the end of the Sayian Saga to keep Vegeta around and only serves to make Goku look like a selfish moron and against Frieza it makes even less sense than it did against Vegeta.

 

[Parth]

This is honestly a read on the character I simply can't agree with, even remotely, Goku sparing Frieza felt entirely incoherent and wasn't even explained in the text.

In the past he wasted the likes of Tao Pai Pai, Tambourine and King Piccolo because they were problems and or he was pissed at them. He even helped merc his own brother cos it was what needed to be done.

Goku sparing villains for no reason and without a care is literally something tacked on at the end of the Sayian Saga to keep Vegeta around and only serves to make Goku look like a selfish moron and against Frieza it makes even less sense than it did against Vegeta.

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Kid Goku and Adult Goku may as well be two different people.

Kid Goku was far more Saiyan-like than Adult Goku who just wants a good fight. Secondly, if you read DBS Goku does explain his reason for sparing villains. He's giving them a chance to change if they don't then he's got another fight coming.

FInally, the Anime and manga versions of Goku are very different, Manga Goku literally doesn't care about his family. Whereas Anime Goku was changed to be more kid-friendly.

 

[Zam]

Kid Goku and Adult Goku may as well be two different people.

Kid Goku was far more Saiyan-like than Adult Goku who just wants a good fight. Secondly, if you read DBS Goku does explain his reason for sparing villains. He's giving them a chance to change if they don't then he's got another fight coming.

FInally, the Anime and manga versions of Goku are very different, Manga Goku literally doesn't care about his family. Whereas Anime Goku was changed to be more kid-friendly.

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That's not remotely accurate, even ignoring that Sayians hadn't been invented yet and all the ascribing personality traits based on species didn't make sense cos said traits were shared by much of the rest of the cast. Kid Goku's first independent action in the story was to help Turtle get home for no other reason than it was the right thing to do and did you even read his reaction to Radits taking Gohan?

The outright stated ideology of the Kami school is that martial arts are for self improvement and not for self service but that if people are doing wrong, one must use their skills to destroy them. Despite Akira whining about it later, he actually did write Goku as a fairly heroic and caring person person and not just heroic by accident.

But more to the point he wasn't initially that stupid, let alone that selfish until such time as the characters needed to be warped for story to justify keeping certain figures around; or otherwise have them do nothing sensible until such time as the story needed them to be sensible, IE the Cell Saga.