Dragon Ball, DBZ and DBGT Ideas, Discussion, and Recommendation Thread

[Zam]

Definitely, yeah. Part of the solution is just throwing out canon notions/portrayals of Power Levels entirely. As Plague of Gripes points out in his video rant about power levels, Super also sort of took that approach and sort of adopted a hierarchy of tiers of power instead, and differences in strength between those tiers are big but not just flat-out insurmountable anymore, up to a certain point of course.

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I definitely feel that can work well, though could also be hard tomake a fanficiton audience swallow and that it lines up better with early DB, though as to whether Super handled it well... Well I don't like Super so I'll leave it at that XD

Like, if we were still working off of Dragon Ball Z rules about differences in power, that cool Goku vs Krillin fight where Krillin actually maanges to hold his own even after Goku goes Super Saiyan? Would never have been even remotely possible, unless Toriyama pulled out some magic power-up device that he was actually willing to give to someone who wasn't a Saiyan or Piccolo for once. It sacrifices being wholly consistent with how things have been portrayed in the past for, you know, not making almost every character in this diverse cast worthless in a fight. I feel like the execution of it is still a bit rough, but you get what I'm talking about, and it is at least a big improvement (... until Jiren becomes a thing and is just so strong that he can somehow just muscle through time-stop powers. Because that's such a fun and interesting way to defeat one of the few guys in this whole series whose powers and techniques were something more fresh and original than "fly fast, punch hard, throw energy blasts").

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Hit was the boss and I loved his character, I wish we got more use out of him than just as the Worf for Jiren. But yeah this is a good breakdown, and I agree its execution was rough and would go as far to say nonsensical at times, as it is, I like some of the ideas in Super, but can't support the execution even remotely.

And for some of the arcs you can do a lot of pad out the number of opponents so everybody gets something to do by judiciously adding in assorted movie villains (Androids 13-15 could be released by Gero when he and 19 fail, and then he resorts to 17 and 18 because he's out of options, for example), characters who got thought up later (Shisami and Tagoma being on Namek, maybe?), or just by twisting a few things from canon.

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Oooh I hadn't considered those ideas, but yeah that works well! Heck, you could just have Gero accompanied by 13-15 off the bat and have it be a big group fight with Super Android 13 being present to cover Gero's escape, but ultimately get overwhelmed or breakdown under its own power. a power which is matched or surpassed by 17 and 18.

Very clever idea with the other elites on Namek as well!

Oh, what do you mean by twisting canon, I have some of my own ideas but they may not line up with yours, likely just being more AU-heavy.

insurmountable

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Ooooh I see, yeah that is clever and would work really well so as to make it feel more like an invasion, letting all the cast fight and grapple with several of the little blighters at once, while also trying to keep some from running off to cause trouble, covering each others backs, and avoiding kamikaze, that'd be super chaotic and hard to write, but so very cool!

Also yeah it leaves-em tired enough and Nappa likely angry enough to avoid an easy dog-pile win letting things continue fairly naturally and making the extended cast feel like they have a purpose.

One fun thing about suping up the main cast actually is that Nappa in Ozaru form is a little weaker than the Ginyu's, so if you made them strong enough for him to have to go Ozary you could have a group battle against Nappa, while Goku and Vegeta square off elsewhere, then any survivors will, once super up by Guru, likely be good matches for the Ginyu maybe?

 

[Leingod]

One fun thing about suping up the main cast actually is that Nappa in Ozaru form is a little weaker than the Ginyu's, so if you made them strong enough for him to have to go Ozary you could have a group battle against Nappa, while Goku and Vegeta square off elsewhere, then any survivors will, once super up by Guru, likely be good matches for the Ginyu maybe?

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That could work. My own idea for it would be something like King Kai getting tipped off early that Freeza's learned about the Dragon Balls and is heading for Namek. I always imagined that part of the reason Goku at least might never have taught anyone the Kaioken is because it's King Kai's technique (in traditional Chinese and Japanese martial arts, it's a big no-no to pass on stuff without the permission of the master you learned it from), so during the preparations to go to Namek, Goku (stuck in his hospital bed) gets permission to teach it to the surviving Z Warriors and they practice on the way there.

To go ahead and put the numbers to it, I'd suggest them being at like 5,000-6,000 in base state by the time they get to Namek, allowing them to briefly jump in strength enough that the Kaioken lets them briefly hold their own against Zarbon or Dodoria in a small group, but they're still the clear underdogs even if they take the risk (and it is a risk) of going x3. Then after Guru powers-up they could be in about the 20,000-25,000 range. I headcanon Recoome, Jeice and Burter being at around 60,000 a pop, so it would be a very similar setup in terms of relative power to when Goku and Vegeta fought, where x2 is enough to hold your own but you're still at a disadvantage and x3 can give you the edge but it wears you down fast and leaves you vulnerable if you don't manage to put them down.

Apropos of nothing, I always thought Nappa's canon power level of 4,000 (thus 40,000 in Oozaru to Ginyu's 120,000) was a little low given his performance against both the other Z Fighers and Goku and usually headcanon him as something like 6,000-7,000.

 

[Zam]

That could work.

My own idea for it would be something like King Kai getting tipped off early that Freeza's learned about the Dragon Balls and is heading for Namek. I always imagined that part of the reason Goku at least might never have taught anyone the Kaioken is because it's King Kai's technique (in traditional Chinese and Japanese martial arts, it's a big no-no to pass on stuff without the permission of the master you learned it from), so during the preparations to go to Namek, Goku (stuck in his hospital bed) gets permission to teach it to the surviving Z Warriors and they practice on the way there.

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Thanks!

Oooh that is clever, it actually lined up well with something from a fic I read as well that I quite liked, long story short King Kai was impressed by Goku taking Kaio-Ken so far, but also intensely livid that Goku kept ignoring his instructions regarding it and generally abusing it, he outright refused to mention the technique around Piccolo and didn't teach it to the others either.

Though given King Kai's fear of Frieza would he want them potentially facing off against him? Then again if they are committed, he probably figures they might as well have whatever advantage they can get XD

To go ahead and put the numbers to it, I'd suggest them being at like 5,000-6,000 in base state by the time they get to Namek, allowing them to briefly jump in strength enough that the Kaioken lets them briefly hold their own against Zarbon or Dodoria in a small group, but they're still the clear underdogs even if they take the risk (and it is a risk) of going x3. Then after Guru powers-up they could be in about the 20,000-25,000 range. I headcanon Recoome, Jeice and Burter being at around 60,000 a pop, so it would be a very similar setup in terms of relative power to when Goku and Vegeta fought, where x2 is enough to hold your own but you're still at a disadvantage and x3 can give you the edge but it wears you down fast and leaves you vulnerable if you don't manage to put them down.


Apropos of nothing, I always thought Nappa's canon power level of 4,000 (thus 40,000 in Oozaru to Ginyu's 120,000) was a little low given his performance against both the other Z Fighers and Goku and usually headcanon him as something like 6,000-7,000.

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Sounds fair if they spent time training before going to Namek, plus Ialways like to think that being pushed passed one's limit is a good way to break down walls for characters, so the intensity of the fight with Nappa basically let the survivors springboard to a new level faster than normal. Add in the Kaio-Ken possibly having a similar effect and you got some real power! Plus when it comes to fighting Zarbon or Dodoria you can always have team attacks as well to even things out.

That's fair on the Ginyu's, I think some lroe has them at that, others at 15k and others at over seventy, so there's plenty of wiggle room.

Fair enough on Nappa as well, he did manage to make Goku sweat a bit once he focused, and though that could have been his lightning Aura technique whatever gets him there, gets him there.

 

[Leingod]

Though given King Kai's fear of Frieza would he want them potentially facing off against him? Then again if they are committed, he probably figures they might as well have whatever advantage they can get XD

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I mean he would certainly stress to them in no unclear terms that they were to try to avoid actually fighting Freeza at all costs, but he never tried to convince Goku to turn back around or anything. I get the feeling King Kai's been training deceased heroes long enough to know that them throwing themselves into danger for the sake of friends is just A Thing he's going to have to deal with. It still annoys the hell out of him when they don't listen, but I can't imagine Goku's anywhere near the first one to have done it.

Sounds fair if they spent time training before going to Namek, plus Ialways like to think that being pushed passed one's limit is a good way to break down walls for characters, so the intensity of the fight with Nappa basically let the survivors springboard to a new level faster than normal. Add in the Kaio-Ken possibly having a similar effect and you got some real power! Plus when it comes to fighting Zarbon or Dodoria you can always have team attacks as well to even things out.

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And then when it comes for Freeza there's that "Guru's potential unlocking actually has a kind of pseudo-Zenkai element to it where the potential doesn't get released all at once but in response to serious danger/challenges" idea I gave at some point earlier to explain them being able to do anything to any of Freeza's forms.

Plus, if King Kai's also been teaching the dead Z Fighters the Kaioken (because come on, just hand that shit out like candy, man), even if Piccolo isn't any stronger at all than he was in canon once he fuses with Nail, he'll at the very least be a major contributor to the fight all the way up until Freeza starts deciding to use half his full strength, rather than becoming a punching bag who can only stall for time as soon as Freeza goes past Form 2.

EDIT: Also, another potential divergence idea would be "What if at least some of the Namekians decided to stay on Earth and integrate with the local population?" They can't have always been peaceful isolationists who never left their home planet to have the reputation they do, after all, and maybe after all that happens some of them are questioning if going right back to the status quo is really what they want.

 

[Zam]

I mean he would certainly stress to them in no unclear terms that they were to try to avoid actually fighting Freeza at all costs, but he never tried to convince Goku to turn back around or anything. I get the feeling King Kai's been training deceased heroes long enough to know that them throwing themselves into danger for the sake of friends is just A Thing he's going to have to deal with. It still annoys the hell out of him when they don't listen, but I can't imagine Goku's anywhere near the first one to have done it.

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Yeah those are fair and excellent points.

And then when it comes for Freeza there's that "Guru's potential unlocking actually has a kind of pseudo-Zenkai element to it where the potential doesn't get released all at once but in response to serious danger/challenges" idea I gave at some point earlier to explain them being able to do anything to any of Freeza's forms.

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Ooooh OK so I love that! Like I can never not view Zenkai's as just a one arc plot contrivance to keep Vegeta relevant, but this, this actually works, especially seeing as Krillin and Gohan managed to at least annoy Frieza later on if not notably wound him which they shouldn't have been able to do at below 20k. Dang, haha, that is one OP potential release!

Plus, if King Kai's also been teaching the dead Z Fighters the Kaioken (because come on, just hand that shit out like candy, man), even if Piccolo isn't any stronger at all than he was in canon once he fuses with Nail, he'll at the very least be a major contributor to the fight all the way up until Freeza starts deciding to use half his full strength, rather than becoming a punching bag who can only stall for time as soon as Freeza goes past Form 2.

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I so wish he had handed it out like candy, then again if the story stayed the same it'd just further be crapping on the none Sayians, at least this way fanfic authors can say they weren't taught it and use it as a way to help the cast keep pace.

Also do you think you'd be changing who went to Namek with such an idea? I can see the appeal in keeping the original trio, but that's also been done a great deal so... (Shrugs)

EDIT: Also, another potential divergence idea would be "What if at least some of the Namekians decided to stay on Earth and integrate with the local population?" They can't have always been peaceful isolationists who never left their home planet to have the reputation they do, after all, and maybe after all that happens some of them are questioning if going right back to the status quo is really what they want.

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I've always enjoyed Namekians hanging around on earth, I had an AU where that specifically happened before Nail was even fused with, it has a lot of potential, plus we know some named one's who can be characterized anyway, though what would the end goal be?

 

[Leingod]

Also do you think you'd be changing who went to Namek with such an idea? I can see the appeal in keeping the original trio, but that's also been done a great deal so... (Shrugs)

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It sort of depends on where the mounting differences from canon actually leave things by that point. Like, if the cast of fighters is substantially larger than canon as we've traded ideas around for facilitating, there should probably be more than just the canon survivors making it out since it would feel like you were just clinging to the stations of canon, especially if extra threats are going to be added on Namek to compensate.

Speaking of which, the first part of the Namek arc really had this interesting setup when you think about it. The bulk of Freeza Force soldiers weren't a serious threat to the Earthlings (though I think at least a few of them were probably at least stronger than those two Gohan and Krillin beat without a sweat, maybe there were even a handful about on par with Cui?), but they had numbers on their side, and their big hitters were all way out of their league, and they had a head start due to arriving first and collecting 4 Dragon Balls. But on the other hand the Freeza Force lose their Scouters that they're reliant on to find anyone and are all flying blind from that point on, allowing the heroes to act around them all the way until the Ginyus show up. You could actually turn that into essentially a guerrilla war, especially if they still don't want anything to do with Freeza but might still stand a chance if they can get Zarbon or Dodoria alone.

I've always enjoyed Namekians hanging around on earth, I had an AU where that specifically happened before Nail was even fused with, it has a lot of potential, plus we know some named one's who can be characterized anyway, though what would the end goal be?

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Mostly I just think it's cool and makes DB Earth even more colorful and diverse with these alien settlers integrating with the populace and exchanging ideas and culture and such, it could make for a neat background element and possible B-plot for stuff in-between the successive crises that canon focused on.

 

[Zam]

It sort of depends on where the mounting differences from canon actually leave things by that point. Like, if the cast of fighters is substantially larger than canon as we've traded ideas around for facilitating, there should probably be more than just the canon survivors making it out since it would feel like you were just clinging to the stations of canon, especially if extra threats are going to be added on Namek to compensate.

Speaking of which, the first part of the Namek arc really had this interesting setup when you think about it. The bulk of Freeza Force soldiers weren't a serious threat to the Earthlings (though I think at least a few of them were probably at least stronger than those two Gohan and Krillin beat without a sweat, maybe there were even a handful about on par with Cui?), but they had numbers on their side, and their big hitters were all way out of their league, and they had a head start due to arriving first and collecting 4 Dragon Balls. But on the other hand the Freeza Force lose their Scouters that they're reliant on to find anyone and are all flying blind from that point on, allowing the heroes to act around them all the way until the Ginyus show up. You could actually turn that into essentially a guerrilla war, especially if they still don't want anything to do with Freeza but might still stand a chance if they can get Zarbon or Dodoria alone.

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That is true facts and to be honest in order to justify a trip to Namek (Without just wanting to fight Frieza) all one really needs is for one of the following, Chaosu or Krillin, or Piccolo to die to ensure a trip is necessary so you could easily have everyone else stick around.

Indeed, the series used it OK I think, though Vegeta got the lions-share of fun and interesting stuff to do :/ But add in Nail, some other Nameks or just an expanded cast roster and they could definitely pull a cool hit and run campaign against Fieza and his forces.

Mostly I just think it's cool and makes DB Earth even more colorful and diverse with these alien settlers integrating with the populace and exchanging ideas and culture and such, it could make for a neat background element and possible B-plot for stuff in-between the successive crises that canon focused on, like Piccolo interacting more with his people and such.

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I agree and thik it works well. One thing I liked to toy with in a version where that happened was actually Gohan learning to use his Ki for healing over continuing to develop as a fighter (Cos he never liked fighting, and no I don't care what Super said. XD)

 

[Leingod]

I agree and thik it works well. One thing I liked to toy with in a version where that happened was actually Gohan learning to use his Ki for healing over continuing to develop as a fighter (Cos he never liked fighting, and no I don't care what Super said. XD)

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Personally, I kind of really like the story thread of Gohan really not liking fighting the way his dad does (though he at least seems to at least be okay with normal training and sparring and stuff, it's hurting people he hates), but still feels like he has a responsibility to use his incredible power to help protect the world and the people in it. Especially when the Spider-Man comparison grows even more explicit as he becomes a literal costumed superhero who has to juggle his secret identity with school.

But yes, him learning to heal with ki would be a great and fitting thing for him to take up; he's a scholar, after all, and if he's going to be spending so much time training to better harness and use ki why not really go in depth and learn to use it for than just punching and blasting, right?

 

[Zam]

Personally, I kind of really like the story thread of Gohan really not liking fighting the way his dad does (though he at least seems to at least be okay with normal training and sparring and stuff, it's hurting people he hates), but still feels like he has a responsibility to use his incredible power to help protect the world and the people in it. Especially when the Spider-Man comparison grows even more explicit as he becomes a literal costumed superhero who has to juggle his secret identity with school.

But yes, him learning to heal with ki would be a great and fitting thing for him to take up; he's a scholar, after all, and if he's going to be spending so much time training to better harness and use ki why not really go in depth and learn to use it for than just punching and blasting, right?

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I think it works well and has dramatic weight back in Z, I confess I never got the impression he even enjoyed training that much so much as just spending time around his loved one's but that may just be me. Neat comparison there as well.

Thanks I am glad it works, it is done by me for a few reasons, partially so Gohan doesn't "have" to fight but can still contribute cos forcing him into battles he finds upsetting is more unpleasant to me than it is anything else. It also means however he won't be fighting so I don't have to deal with any "Gohan's natural talent is so great he'd solve all problems if he just trained more" type of issues, be they comments or from the series itself XD Plus yeah, I think it suits his personality better, he dislikes hurting things, likes helping and becoming a i doctor scholar seems like a very fitting mingling of his desired path and family history.

 

[Leingod]

I think it works well and has dramatic weight back in Z, I confess I never got the impression he even enjoyed training that much so much as just spending time around his loved one's but that may just be me. Neat comparison there as well.

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Well he certainly didn't enjoy Piccolo's training in the Saiyan Saga, but I personally always felt like Goku actually seemed to strike a much more enjoyable balance when he and Gohan trained together that kept it from becoming this dangerous, painful ordeal or a rigorous chore. Which makes sense IMO: Goku is the guy who fights and trains primarily because it's fun, so he seems like a great option for someone whose enthusiasm would be infectious and would know exactly when it stops being enjoyable and/or effective to keep going. Which also fits with him explaining to Gohan that training a second time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in their current time-frame wouldn't help them.

For someone who often seems to only have fighting and training on his mind, Goku actually seems to understand when you need to take a break and do something else pretty well, now that I think about it.

Also, back-pedalling a bit:

Just thought of an idea where between Z and Super Hercule goes into semi-retirement, and Videl takes over the Satan dojo.

Also, after taking over she begins to bring some of Gohan's work into her teachings, since he is the one who eventually makes knowledge of ki more widespread. This of course would mean that Videl kept training in ki techniques after the Buu Sage, even studying under some of the other Z warriors. So you could have different stories about Videl studying under Goku, Piccolo ... geez, Videl studying under Roshi.

Gohan and Videl's relationship could also make an interesting inverse of Goku and ChiChi's marriage, where it's the wife who's always going off to train.

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I am absolutely in favor of this. Videl quitting fighting entirely to be a homemaking housewife was just doo-doo. I feel like, as the Earthling Z Fighter who never actually gave up on training to get stronger, Tenshinhan would be a cool person to be her primary mentor.

 

[Zam]

Well he certainly didn't enjoy Piccolo's training in the Saiyan Saga, but I personally always felt like Goku actually seemed to strike a much more enjoyable balance when he and Gohan trained together that kept it from becoming this dangerous, painful ordeal or a rigorous chore. Which makes sense IMO: Goku is the guy who fights and trains primarily because it's fun, so he seems like a great option for someone whose enthusiasm would be infectious and would know exactly when it stops being enjoyable and/or effective to keep going. Which also fits with him explaining to Gohan that training a second time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in their current time-frame wouldn't help them.

For someone who often seems to only have fighting and training on his mind, Goku actually seems to understand when you need to take a break and do something else pretty well, now that I think about it.

Also, back-pedalling a bit:

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All excellent and fair insights, though by the same token, Goku is also the one who thought Gohan enjoyed fighting and a challenge like he did, while Piccolo grasped Gohan only fought out of necessity, ironic XD

Also it is good Goku maintained that as it was a thing Roshi taught him back in the early days and a good approach to carry through.

I am absolutely in favor of this. Videl quitting fighting entirely to be a homemaking housewife was just doo-doo. I feel like, as the Earthling Z Fighter who never actually gave up on training to get stronger, Tenshinhan would be a cool person to be her primary mentor.

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Very much agreed on these fronts and yeah Tenshinhan always strikes me as the best fit, especially for a Videl centric story. Plus I feel his high intensity and harsh combat style would actually resonate well with Videl.

 

[Leingod]

All excellent and fair insights, though by the same token, Goku is also the one who thought Gohan enjoyed fighting and a challenge like he did, while Piccolo grasped Gohan only fought out of necessity, ironic XD

Also it is good Goku maintained that as it was a thing Roshi taught him back in the early days and a good approach to carry through.

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Ironic, or appropriate? After all, if Goku was able to make training at least partly fun for Gohan, it makes sense that he was more likely than Piccolo to have the mistaken impression that Gohan likes fighting and getting stronger for its own sake the way he does, not quite getting that Gohan draws a much harder line than Goku does between training and sparring sessions with his old man and fighting for his life against a monster out to destroy the world.

EDIT: Especially since Goku was never actually around to see Gohan in any of his most desperate battles. Both on Earth and Namek, he only ever showed up right after, so he didn't get to see as much of Gohan in a fight where he was an active participant as Piccolo did.

Huh, I hadn't made that connection. Cool.

 

[Zam]

Ironic, or appropriate? After all, if Goku was able to make training at least partly fun for Gohan, it makes sense that he was more likely than Piccolo to have the mistaken impression that Gohan likes fighting and getting stronger for its own sake the way he does, not quite getting that Gohan draws a much harder line than Goku does between training and sparring sessions with his old man and fighting for his life against a monster out to destroy the world.

EDIT: Especially since Goku was never actually around to see Gohan in any of his most desperate battles. Both on Earth and Namek, he only ever showed up right after, so he didn't get to see as much of Gohan in a fight where he was an active participant as Piccolo did.

Huh, I hadn't made that connection. Cool.

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Good insights there, yeah, despite the environment it was a much more casual form of training than Gohan usually got given Goku was pretty fun and chill and within filler we saw him emphasizing taking breaks and having fun so it was probably more like camping with lots of exercise to Gohan barring a few intense moments. Very distinct to just constant sparring and pummeling with Piccolo or a real fight.

Glad to have been of use!

Also if you wanted to change up the Namek attendance... Honestly I'd maybe just kill Piccolo, that way if you feel you need Gohan there he has personal investment and everyone else is going to save Kami and the DBs and keep an eye on Gohan. Chaosu can survive cos Nappa knocked him off his back or cos he go knocked out fighting too many Saibamen, Yamcha maybe avoided the kamikaze attack or someone jumped in to sabotage it leaving him alive but injured and with no Chaosu death Tenshinhan doesn't "quite" kill himself with the Kikoho ETC. Then you can include some of Frieza's other minions, or have more team centric battles....

I do think Vegeta would probably be dead though. Krillin will listen to Goku saying he wants to fight him again, but Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaosu? Not so much.

 

[Leingod]

Also if you wanted to change up the Namek attendance... Honestly I'd maybe just kill Piccolo, that way if you feel you need Gohan there he has personal investment and everyone else is going to save Kami and the DBs and keep an eye on Gohan. Chaosu can survive cos Nappa knocked him off his back or cos he go knocked out fighting too many Saibamen, Yamcha maybe avoided the kamikaze attack or someone jumped in to sabotage it leaving him alive but injured and with no Chaosu death Tenshinhan doesn't "quite" kill himself with the Kikoho ETC. Then you can include some of Frieza's other minions, or have more team centric battles....

I do think Vegeta would probably be dead though. Krillin will listen to Goku saying he wants to fight him again, but Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chaosu? Not so much.

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I mean, if Nappa and Vegeta are killed and only took out one of the heroes with them in a Dragon Ball story, it's honestly just going to make the whole arc come off as a bit of a cakewalk after the fact even if the moment-to-moment story was still really intense, which feels like a bit of a disservice to how much of a game-changer and a down-to-the-wire finish the Saiyan Saga was, even if it did also mark the start of a lot of Z's bad storytelling habits.

It also posthumously makes Piccolo look kind of dumb for letting himself die even though he is the most important person to keep alive out of the entire group against a threat that turns out not to have been as desperate as what the canon invasion of the Saiyans represented, as shown by their body count.

But yes, basically any configuration of characters can work just fine so long as at least one person dies who can't just be wished back with Earth's Dragon Balls and necessitates a trip to Namek, so it's really down to the characters you actually want to use and have play off each other, the fights you want to show, etc.

And if you don't want everyone to pile onto the ship to Namek even if you don't kill off a whole bunch of characters, you can justify a few staying back if, say, going with the idea I gave above with Nappa making a lot more, it turns out not all the Saibamen died, so even if they know Freeza's out there at least one fighter needs to stay behind to root them out and make sure they don't get out of hand.

Personally, I think a good way of handling the cast would be to sort of create your own categories to slot characters into for every given arc to sort of determine who gets to rise to prominence and step up the most during a given arc, and sort of rotate that out periodically. Because with a big cast it can become a slog if you feel like you have to give all of them equal screentime every step of the way, but you don't want just this big cast herd where most of them spend the majority of an arc just kind of spectating.

EDIT: As one example, you might decide that, say, Yamcha is calling the shots in the first half of the Namek arc, because he knows a little bit about hit-and-run tactics from his time as a bandit and taking a sort of leadership position and getting the most character moments and some cool fights, then when Piccolo arrives he shifts more into focus. Stuff like that.

 

[Zam]

I mean, if Nappa and Vegeta are killed and only took out one of the heroes with them in a Dragon Ball story, it's honestly just going to make the whole arc come off as a bit of a cakewalk after the fact even if the moment-to-moment story was still really intense, which feels like a bit of a disservice to how much of a game-changer and a down-to-the-wire finish the Saiyan Saga was, even if it did also mark the start of a lot of Z's bad storytelling habits.

It also posthumously makes Piccolo look kind of dumb for letting himself die even though he is the most important person to keep alive out of the entire group against a threat that turns out not to have been as desperate as what the canon invasion of the Saiyans represented, as shown by their body count.

But yes, basically any configuration of characters can work just fine so long as at least one person dies who can't just be wished back with Earth's Dragon Balls and necessitates a trip to Namek, so it's really down to the characters you actually want to use and have play off each other, the fights you want to show, etc.

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That is a totally fair take, I was mostly just throwing examples at the wall over specifically suggesting Piccolo. As to the intensity aspect, I do get you, I guess my nominal counterpoint is we already saw that in canon so I'm not as stressed about recreating it?

I could see Vegeta upon finding out the DBs have been used blowing Piccolo up just to be petty, if one wanted to justify it.

Pretty much XD I'd probably go with Krillin or maybe Gohan (IE they want to rush him back cos he's a kid) if only cos we already saw them on Namek so they're be lower on my list of characters to send there.

And if you don't want everyone to pile onto the ship to Namek even if you don't kill off a whole bunch of characters, you can justify a few staying back if, say, going with the idea I gave above with Nappa making a lot more, it turns out not all the Saibamen died, so even if they know Freeza's out there at least one fighter needs to stay behind to root them out and make sure they don't get out of hand.

Personally, I think a good way of handling the cast would be to sort of create your own categories to slot characters into for every given arc to sort of determine who gets to rise to prominence and step up the most during a given arc, and sort of rotate that out periodically. Because with a big cast it can become a slog if you feel like you have to give all of them equal screentime every step of the way, but you don't want just this big cast herd where most of them spend the majority of an arc just kind of spectating.

EDIT: As one example, you might decide that, say, Yamcha is calling the shots in the first half of the Namek arc, because he knows a little bit about hit-and-run tactics from his time as a bandit and taking a sort of leadership position and getting the most character moments and some cool fights, then when Piccolo arrives he shifts more into focus. Stuff like that.

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This is also a good idea, Earthling Chronicles actually did this with Tenshinhan requesting Chichi to stay back in case the PTO sent anyone after earth, she is instead stuck fighting Garlic Junior and co, it was very cool. The Saibamen also works well!

Yeah I think that is a good approach and system. Also it remidns me of how I wanted to reflect on how I wanted to reflect on how the Android Saga might have changed if focus was shifted based on who had, had the most attention last arc. So Vegeta gets the least focus, then Gohan, and Krillin, then Piccolo and Goku while Yamcha, Tenshihan and Chaosu and Bulma are much more in focus.

Really clever idea with Yamcha's experience there! Plus he wants to have a family so I like to imagine him was good, or as trying to be good with kids XD

 

[Zam]

Ya know @Leingod

Speaking of Satan, a character who I think does a much better job of filling a similar role while also being funnier and more likable than him is Bleach's Don Kanonji.

Like he has some legit (But due to lack of training) limited super powers. Legitimately thought he was a spiritual expert but was capable of seeing others skills both in general and when they were superior to his own. Did still take credit for an exorcism that he only helped in rather than did but if I recall that was actually an agreement over him stealing credit. He was totally willing to stare down foes he knew damn well could crush him like a bug to protect others and refused the prospect of retreat because he knew children looked up to him and couldn't see their hero being cowardly.

All while being dramatic, flamboyant and wildly dressed and generally performative.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

All while being dramatic, flamboyant and wildly dressed and generally performative.

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That's the genre advancing for you. For all that it was the pioneer of modern action manga, subsequent series have really developed on its model - everything from giving the enemy miniboss squad consistent interesting designs, abilities, and personalities (instead of just one instance of such) to clever use of unique powersets (instead of everybody using the same generic punches and energy beams) to doing more with powerup transformations (instead of just a hair color change and being told that they're stronger now). Kanoiji does it better... but would he have done it if he didn't have the Satan model to build off of?

 

[Zam]

That's a very interesting take, thanks for sharing Zap Rowsdower!

Also do we have a Bleach fanfic thread around her?

Anyway on Namek, the number of times I have toyed with alternate Namek arcs is absurd. Partially cos one of the great things about it is, you don't need to defeat Frieza there. So long as the cast which themselves and anyone else away, they can have tome to prep for round two on earth making the power scale jumping less absurd too and letting everyone be more involved as they can be wished back in the interim. Heck one can even act in time to save Nail, and if one managed to rope some of Frieza's minions or the likes of the Ginyu's into either an Alliance or they just knew they were dead for failing you can even expand the cast, tons of fun!

So like if Yamcha survives but Gohan comes along I imagine them gettiing along quite well. Yamcha always wanted a family and was kind of a big brother to Goku over a pure peer friend like Krillen so that probably carries over in his handling of Gohan. I also imagine him radiating "I want one" energy around Bulma the entire time while trying not to show it (he is failing) also Puar would be there which could be fun for stealing dragon balls!

Tenshinhan is probably more power centric, he would have only survived due to passing out or being knocked out, and resents his weakness, so he's hyper focused. He's probably stronger post fight and likely has been able to piece together the Kaio-Ken from observation so he'd definitely post Guru be a good match for at least the Ginyu. (I also had a version where he full on took down Frieza thanks to Guru and a year in the hyperbolic time chamber before leaving.)

Piccolo is easy to include if just Chaosu is dead, but even easier with Krillin, there's less chance of Gohan on this one assuming he's even alive. I imagine there'd be a lot of complicated feels as Kami might come and he' engaging with his world, creator and so much all at once. (Also if Gohan is dead he may have been forced to train Chichi in the time chamber maybe so she could come?)

In the case of Krillin dying in a self sacrifice play to take Vegeta with him, I've had Chichi train and go after a year with Yajirobe in the time chamber leaving her a few thousand behind Vegeta, She usually dies trying to stall Frieza post Spirit Bomb and believes firmly in group training sessions. (Yairobe stayed behind and killed Cui when he showed up to "Finish the job")

Also an interesting one I hadn't considered till recently, Krillin and Chaosu, (Possibly post time chamber as Chaosu feels too weak to help or they know about Frieza, massively developing his psychic powers.)

Also an idea I haven't considered before but.. Goku? Like his injuries weren't that bad so he's going alone, or just with Krillin or Chichi or someone, not sure, (Also Bulma obviously)

Long story short, tons of options.

 

[Jcogginsa]

That's the genre advancing for you. For all that it was the pioneer of modern action manga, subsequent series have really developed on its model - everything from giving the enemy miniboss squad consistent interesting designs, abilities, and personalities (instead of just one instance of such) to clever use of unique powersets (instead of everybody using the same generic punches and energy beams) to doing more with powerup transformations (instead of just a hair color change and being told that they're stronger now). Kanoiji does it better... but would he have done it if he didn't have the Satan model to build off of?

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I should note that complex Transformation designs were a thing when Super Saiyan first showed up. The simplicity of the design was a deliberate subversion.

 

[gwainknight]

I mean, if Nappa and Vegeta are killed and only took out one of the heroes with them in a Dragon Ball story, it's honestly just going to make the whole arc come off as a bit of a cakewalk after the fact even if the moment-to-moment story was still really intense, which feels like a bit of a disservice to how much of a game-changer and a down-to-the-wire finish the Saiyan Saga was, even if it did also mark the start of a lot of Z's bad storytelling habits.

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It's not too hard to make believable. Krillin's Destructo Disc could have killed Nappa if Vegeta hadn't warned him at the last moment that it was a bad idea to try and tank it.

 

[Zam]

I had some largely new thoughts I needed to share.

So, future Bulma creates a time machine. But in this idea it is a much smaller time machine, one that is easier to build with limited resources and so instead she uses it to send packages back to the past that materialize in the Capsule Corp compound. So what does she send?

An information packet with pictures, meticulously kept journal entries and even video logs that chart her life story, her tech, Gero's tech and everything she knows about her allies, their pasts and their trainers. Why send all that?

Cos she sent it to her much, much younger self, something like twelve years or so with intent on giving her forewarning of basically everything so they can't be taken by surprise year old self or get it by the potential ripple effects of her machine.

Thus with this the Earth Special Forces know all the threats, they know the timeline, they know all their teachers, but its Bulma's job to find and unite them.

Of course, multi verse theory is a cruel mistress. Now there's a lot of options from ending up in an already grittier past timeline, or a movie timeline but I'm leaning towards pure ripple effect right now and where else to start that but with possibly the biggest splash of all.

The death of Goku.

Yup, long story short thanks to the butterfly effect when Goku fell and hit his head he came down with a serious cold and passed away before Gohan could save him. Thus when Bu;ma turns up to begin her quest she is surprised to meet an old man over a young boy, reveals the truth and they take off on the adventure with the promise to resurrect Goku at the end of it, they don't expect any serious trouble,

Note: Bulma may have found and hired Launch as her maid/bodyguard (A sneeze away in either case) for the early stages of the journey as the world is looking very dangerous right now, oddly, more dangerous than her counterpart ever implied.

Long story short.

The Red Ribbon Army has gotten their start on the DB Hunt much earlier and is intensely ruthless about it. Not sure on all the specifics but after their first encounter with Gohan they realize who he is as Gohan won a world martial arts tournament and is easier to look up than "Random child".

Realizing they need a martial artist of their own, they hire Tao early... But never tel him who targets 'bodyguard' is, meaning Tao is surprised by one of the only people on the planet who could conceivably kill him and is none to happy about it.

Long story short he loses an arm in the fight but manages to kill Gohan (Possibly) with a on handed Kikoho before escaping with most of the DBs and heading back to the base.

That's when Commander Red tries to literally shoot him in the back against Assistant Black's advice who tries to stop him. Tao spins around and catches the bullet but pretends to die and listens to the two bicker when upon Red reveals his true motive.

A sibilant chuckle cut through the tension like a knife as Tao's body stirred and the man sat up with a gentle groan, flashing his palm and revealing a captured bullet as he spat, "So if I understand correctly. You hired me and knowingly sent me after the legendary Son Gohan with no warning, without informing me of the Dragon Ball true nature and tried to execute me rather than pay because you'll still need money after you waste a wish to gain a couple of inches?"

"Don't patronize me you-"

BANG!

Assistant Black executed Red right there for wasting soldiers on a vanity project and apologizes to Tao and promises to pay him double but Tao waves him off and says once 'they' have the Dragon Balls money won't be a concern. However he laughs off the idea of wishing to rule the world and says once he has recovered he'll explain.

"We may have some people who can help with that."

Cur Tao getting a cybernetic hand from Gero and "21" and tests it out by using a Dodon to wipe out a chunk of forest and is pleased with the result. He then reveals his thinking not just to Assistant Black, but the scientists and soldiers too.

"Why waste a wish to rule the earth for a lifetime, when alongside me you could rule it for an eternity? We will not wish to rule this earth, we shall wish for immortality and then claim this planet as our own. With Son Gohan gone there is no warrior on earth who can challenge me and the world governments's feeble forces can fall before you like blades of grass before a roaring blaze. With me at the helm there is no force in this world that can stop us!"

He then unleashes a new "Super Dodonpa" and obliterates the peak of a mountain to the cheers of the soldiers and applause of the commanding staff who are quickly put to work scouring the globe for the rest of the Dragon Balls as they currently only have three, Bulma's, Gohan's and their own original ball and Bulma's radar was destroyed in the scuffle, hence him 'needing' the army to speed up the search. Tao may also call in Tenshinhan, Chaozu and Shen, though oddly Shen may find Tao as going too far and not support his efforts as while he could be vicious it was rarely world conquering villainy level stuff.

After which it likely becomes an are centered (Initially) around denying the Red Ribbon Army Dragon Balls as they try to just catch their breath and also have to keep Dr Gero in mind as they need to ensure he doesn't escape should they ever win.

Obviously more need to be filled in but yeah I couldn't get some of the ideas out of my head and had to share.

 

[EcoSyndieDragon]

So I recently started getting back into Dragon Ball full force and inspired by MasakoX's what if videos I've started toying with a couple of fic ideas. One, in particular, I'm looking for input on is for now is titled Great Saiyaman! Protector of Earth! [happy for suggestions on alternate titles] that embraces the zany fun of the whole Saiyaman and the idea Gohan as the protagonist of the post-Cell era of Dragon Ball with themes and influence from the likes of One Punch Man and Mob Psycho 100. Sorta exploring the 'human' part of the superhuman.

The PoD is after the Cell Games Gohan talked to Piccolo or perhaps Dende about his anxieties about inheriting his father's mantle and about his actions during the games. This results in Gohan maintaining his training* but with a focus on control and refinement over power during the time skip and applying a more scholarly approach to understanding Ki and his Saiyan heritage. One thing I'm struggling is how much of this I should cover rather I should cover a few chapters before jumping into the Saiyaman/Satan City stuff or cover it via flashback chapters an/or one-shots.

Another thing is that while I do want to cover the Buu Arc and Super I wanna spend a little more time with Gohan and Videl as training and crime-fighting partners in Satan City. My thoughts either just have the World Martial Arts Tournament delayed for no stated reason or incorporate one of the movies and some world-threatening disaster strike that postpones that event for a year? I'd be grateful for thoughts, criticisms, or questions anyone might have.

*He works out an understanding with Chi Chi

 

[Leingod]

One thing I'm struggling is how much of this I should cover rather I should cover a few chapters before jumping into the Saiyaman/Satan City stuff or cover it via flashback chapters an/or one-shots.

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I would go for a little bit at the start just to establish that it's a thing, then have side chapters or whatever spread out. I tend to find fanfics that spend a lot of time at the beginning on frontloading endless set-up and training and such (like those alt-power Taylor fics where there's whole chapters of just "Taylor tools around with her power for hours to figure out what it is, and that's the entire chapter") losing my interest really quickly.

Another thing is that while I do want to cover the Buu Arc and Super I wanna spend a little more time with Gohan and Videl as training and crime-fighting partners in Satan City. My thoughts either just have the World Martial Arts Tournament delayed for no stated reason or incorporate one of the movies and some world-threatening disaster strike that postpones that event for a year? I'd be grateful for thoughts, criticisms, or questions anyone might have.

*He works out an understanding with Chi Chi

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Or just have Gohan start going to school a year earlier for whatever reason.

 

[Zam]

So I recently started getting back into Dragon Ball full force and inspired by MasakoX's what if videos I've started toying with a couple of fic ideas. One, in particular, I'm looking for input on is for now is titled Great Saiyaman! Protector of Earth! [happy for suggestions on alternate titles] that embraces the zany fun of the whole Saiyaman and the idea Gohan as the protagonist of the post-Cell era of Dragon Ball with themes and influence from the likes of One Punch Man and Mob Psycho 100. Sorta exploring the 'human' part of the superhuman.

The PoD is after the Cell Games Gohan talked to Piccolo or perhaps Dende about his anxieties about inheriting his father's mantle and about his actions during the games. This results in Gohan maintaining his training* but with a focus on control and refinement over power during the time skip and applying a more scholarly approach to understanding Ki and his Saiyan heritage. One thing I'm struggling is how much of this I should cover rather I should cover a few chapters before jumping into the Saiyaman/Satan City stuff or cover it via flashback chapters an/or one-shots.

Another thing is that while I do want to cover the Buu Arc and Super I wanna spend a little more time with Gohan and Videl as training and crime-fighting partners in Satan City. My thoughts either just have the World Martial Arts Tournament delayed for no stated reason or incorporate one of the movies and some world-threatening disaster strike that postpones that event for a year? I'd be grateful for thoughts, criticisms, or questions anyone might have.

*He works out an understanding with Chi Chi

Click to shrink...

I think at least one or two early chapters exploring how you get him from his canon 'self' to the adapted version of the fic, showing his concerns, characters interactions, responsibilities and a bit of back and forth would be good to make it feel like a natural shift. After that some time skip chapters could work quite well, maybe one chapter with several time jumps that ultimately include him adopting the Saiyaman persona sooner (Maybe he was flying off to visit someone and came across crimes?) thus allowing them to meet sooner, which would allow you to have them team up without having to shift around the tournament.

 

[EcoSyndieDragon]

Sorry about not replying sooner, today's been a bit busy 😓

I would go for a little bit at the start just to establish that it's a thing, then have side chapters or whatever spread out. I tend to find fanfics that spend a lot of time at the beginning on frontloading endless set-up and training and such (like those alt-power Taylor fics where there's whole chapters of just "Taylor tools around with her power for hours to figure out what it is, and that's the entire chapter") losing my interest really quickly.

Click to shrink...

I think at least one or two early chapters exploring how you get him from his canon 'self' to the adapted version of the fic, showing his concerns, characters interactions, responsibilities and a bit of back and forth would be good to make it feel like a natural shift. After that some time skip chapters could work quite well, maybe one chapter with several time jumps that ultimately include him adopting the Saiyaman persona sooner (Maybe he was flying off to visit someone and came across crimes?) thus allowing them to meet sooner, which would allow you to have them team up without having to shift around the tournament.

Click to shrink...

Alrighty, that sounds like a solid approach, a set up chapter or two show things diverging and then jumping into the main story interspersed by the occasional side chapter.

Or just have Gohan start going to school a year earlier for whatever reason.

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I think that would the simplest solution and gives me more time to set a few things up for down the road. Thank you both for the input!

Since I'm here I'd also like to share a fic that I can't recommend enough:

What If Gine Went with Goku? by meganchan720

Synopisis: A mother can't let go of her child so easily. What if Gine went with her son into hiding and stayed on Earth to raise him? An adaptation of the video series on MasakoX's youtube channel by the same name.

The simple description doesn't do this story justice, meganchan's crafted a beautiful novelization of MasakoX's already engaging scenario. Gine, through whom we experience the story, is such a wonderfully fleshed out character who's easy to empathize with and a wonderful lens through which to experience the weird and wonderful world of early Dragon Ball Earth and it's people. I'd like to share a dramatic reading MasakoX himself did of the story: