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Detroit: Become Human

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I love how furious Matt is during the twist. Like, it's really obvious with Woolie, but iunno for some reason Matt's anger seems deeper. Like, he actually really cared for Alice and having this stupid plot twist gets him legitimately pissed off rather than annoyed at how stupid it is.
 
Private Lee O'Malley said:
I love how furious Matt is during the twist. Like, it's really obvious with Woolie, but iunno for some reason Matt's anger seems deeper. Like, he actually really cared for Alice and having this stupid plot twist gets him legitimately pissed off rather than annoyed at how stupid it is.
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Just like a human to be offended at being tricked into caring for an android. /sarcasm
 
It would have been better for the narrative if Alice was actually Human. Cause if the whole point of your story is "Can an android learn to be human" then showing an android being a better parent than an abusive father and a deadbeat mother who left their child with said abusive dad is better overall.
 
Private Lee O'Malley said:
I love how furious Matt is during the twist. Like, it's really obvious with Woolie, but iunno for some reason Matt's anger seems deeper. Like, he actually really cared for Alice and having this stupid plot twist gets him legitimately pissed off rather than annoyed at how stupid it is.
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One of the things they've mentioned on an off is how Alice feels cold and hungry, the latter of which is actually not the case - while characters attempt to feed Alice, the one time Kara actually asks if Alice is hungry, she says no. Not that I actually really picked this up on my first playthrough or anything :V

It's not really a good twist, but I didn't really think much of it when I played (I just didn't really give much of a shit). But when Matt was talking about how it made Kara's story pointless, I started wondering about that. One of my issues with Kara's story is that I was never really sure what the point was, but when I heard Pat (I think) say 'it's not her fault' and choose to hug her, I actually think that was the point. You spend much of the game believing that protecting this human girl is worthwhile, only for that rug to be pulled out from under you, and then you're asked how you feel about that.

Thinking about that, I feel like could get into that if Alice was charismatic. Not exactly the world's best child character.
 
TheLordofAwesome said:
It would have been better for the narrative if Alice was actually Human. Cause if the whole point of your story is "Can an android learn to be human" then showing an android being a better parent than an abusive father and a deadbeat mother who left their child with said abusive dad is better overall.
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Nah, because if Alice was human, then you wouldn't be asking yourself why you protect Alice. It's aahuman instinct to want to protect children, but are you as aahuman player willing to protect a robot child that will never grow up?

Also, if Alice was human, then there wouldn't be a definite risk of her being destroyed/killed by soldiers or the Canadian border patrol at the end of the game. It adds tension and raises the stakes when you figure out that if Alice is discovered to be an android, she will be destroyed.
 
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Droman said:
Have some more!

Jeremiah 1:5 - "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Androids are abominations because they were not formed by God?

Isaiah 10:15 - "Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it, or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it? As if a rod should wield him who lifts it, or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!"

A clear condemnation of allowing technology to become more than just a tool.

Ephesians 2:10 - "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

We are God's workmanship. When we create, then, is a direct reflection on God. By this gross and deviant step to make life based on OUR image, we are attempting to usurp the divine and will surely bring His wrath down upon us.

Joshua 8:1 - "And the Lord said to Joshua, "Do not fear and do not be dismayed. Take all the fighting men with you, and arise, go up to Ai. See, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, and his people, his city, and his land."

Kind of on the nose there, God.

Psalm 135:15-18 - "The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; they have eyes, but do not see; they have ears, but do not hear, nor is there any breath in their mouths. Those who make them become like them, so do all who trust in them!"

Heh.
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Well, now I know what will be the response of the most passionate Christians when AI begins to appear.

Fernandel said:
Also, if Alice was human, then there wouldn't be a definite risk of her being destroyed/killed by soldiers or the Canadian border patrol at the end of the game. It adds tension and raises the stakes when you figure out that if Alice is discovered to be an android, she will be destroyed.
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Are you sure? See this is a point that would create even more tension, if she were human, why would we take her with us? There are soldiers everywhere, shooting left and right at everything, and not, it doesn't matter if they can see if you're an android or not, they always shoot Kara and she doesn't have her led, they will try to kill you, so, why not leave Alice behind? But then, where would you leave her? Would you be willing to lose the last bus to put her to safety? What if she refuse to leave? Etc, etc.
 
Astaroh-M said:
Are you sure? See this is a point that would create even more tension, if she were human, why would we take her with us? There are soldiers everywhere, shooting left and right at everything, and not, it doesn't matter if they can see if you're an android or not, they always shoot Kara and she doesn't have her led, they will try to kill you, so, why not leave Alice behind? But then, where would you leave her? Would you be willing to lose the last bus to put her to safety? What if she refuse to leave? Etc, etc.
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Sony won't let a small human child get her face obliterated by a hail of 5.56 rounds in one of their videogames.
 
Astaroh-M said:
Are you sure? See this is a point that would create even more tension, if she were human, why would we take her with us?
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Because leaving a child behind in a warzone is unquestionably awful and morally reprehensible?

Like, there isn't actual ambiguity to this.

But the question as to whether an android child that isn't traditionally "alive" deserves the same protection is actually a question that I think many people would struggle to answer.

But if Alice was actually human, well, then she could say so to the nearest soldier/cop, they'd perform a scan, boom, Alice goes home. No tension at all.

Also, bluntly, Alice being an android an emotionally distraught divorcee dad buys to prove a point to his ex-wife makes sense. It'd actually make less sense if Kara's mother was willing to leave her daughter with a drug-dealing, abusive husband. Her taking her actual human daughter, running off, and getting help, after which Todd tries desperately to prove her wrong by raising an android child (probably to get visitation rights) makes sense.

It's a twist, sure, but it's hardly comparable to Underwater Chinese Ghost Base in terms of ludicrousness. :V
 
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Fernandel said:
Because leaving a child behind in a warzone is unquestionably awful and morally reprehensible?
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...You do remember Rose's house, right? The kind woman that help them? Why exactly could Alice stay there?

Fernandel said:
Also, bluntly, Alice being an android an emotionally distraught divorcee dad buys to prove a point to his ex-wife makes sense. It'd actually make less sense if Kara's mother was willing to leave her daughter with a drug-dealing, abusive husband. Her taking her actual human daughter, running off, and getting help, after which Todd tries desperately to prove her wrong by raising an android child to get visitation rights makes sense.
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Dude, you aren't even trying, obviously that part of the story would have to change to make sense with Alice being a real human.
 
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Astaroh-M said:
...You do remember Rose's house, right? The kind woman that help them? Why exactly could Alice stay there?
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What, Rose? The one who leaves said home later to flee into Canada because she fears getting arrested for helping deviants?

Also, I'm sure that US police and military will not be at all suspicious when they see a white child staying with a woman of colour. :V

At the end of the day, I think Ford nails the exact conflict that was meant to be explored:
Ford Prefect said:
but when I heard Pat (I think) say 'it's not her fault' and choose to hug her, I actually think that was the point. You spend much of the game believing that protecting this human girl is worthwhile, only for that rug to be pulled out from under you, and then you're asked how you feel about that.
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This point just wouldn't work if Alice was human.
 
Goddamn it, I wanted to see the remain a machine path. North is genuinely terrible and her choices are going to be the worst, they thought so, so I don't know why they thought joining her would somehow be a good thing.
 
the only good thing about alice being a robot is that it's the eleventh hour out of nowhere bullshit twist that really cements detroit as a david cage production. this game was almost just badly written and stupid, but now it's badly written, stupid, AND has an imbecilic twist that adds nothing and involves lying to the viewer constantly for vague and nonsense reasons!
 
North owns.

Fernandel said:
This point just wouldn't work if Alice was human.
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Don't get me wrong, I don't think that point works even though Alice is a robot, and I'm just speculating on the motive behind the decision. But certainly you couldn't do this at all if Alice was human. There are also certain other elements that would go away if she was a real kid - from the moment it was confirm she was an android, every moment of danger from this point on was a genuine 'ah fuck' kind of thing. Not that bad stuff can't happen to both Kara and Alice earlier in the game, but the sensation of lethality goes up. The next couple of scenes have some good uses of this feeling.
 
North had potential as an angry android liberator. I think if this was more of an open world game you could use her, Simon and Josh to demonstrate different aspects of android activism. The more I think about Marcus the more I think he could have worked as a villainous android trying to de-deviantize androids for his own goals or that of CyberLife, with Connor as a CyberLife android who could deviant himself or assist Markus (with Traci thrown in as the third wheel of a buddy cop with Hank!).

I still think Kara had potential as the OG android deviant, and I think her and Carl could have great potential. Maybe Alice with Todd from the perspective of Alice could have been an interesting way to develop her becoming human storyline, since we have so little of a child perspective in this game.

I love how this game gets me thinking about possibilities. You can shit on David Cage for not creating a perfectly received game but the guy gives you enough of a setting to get you hungry.
 
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I was leery of North being the constantly aggressive "only violence!" character for reasons I couldn't articulate until someone on twitter pointed out the ghoulish optics of a white woman constantly lecturing a black man about how if he doesn't fight for his freedom he deserves to be a slave.
 
Jace911 said:
I was leery of North being the constantly aggressive "only violence!" character for reasons I couldn't articulate until someone on twitter pointed out the ghoulish optics of a white woman constantly lecturing a black man about how if he doesn't fight for his freedom he deserves to be a slave.
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Minka Kelly is mixed, IIRC. I think her mother's family has Indonesian roots or something.
 
Droman said:
Minka Kelly is mixed, IIRC. I think her mother's family has Indonesian roots or something.
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It's still not great.

This game just has so many moments where Cage's intended message and the actual meaning of the symbols he's appropriating cross wires in a nasty way.
 
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Jace911 said:
It's still not great. This game just has so many moments where Cage's intended message and the actual meaning of the symbols he's appropriating cross wires in a nasty way.
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Would it be a David Cage game if it didn't leave a player feeling angry, disgusted or infuriated at some point? It's like he's an emotional vampiric expy of Tommy Wiseau feeding on reactions to his genius.
 
Also, anyone think that Todd was taking thirium from Alice and Kara to feed his red ice dealing / usage?
 
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