De3ta reads....Ambience: A Fleet Symphony.
- Thread starter De3ta
- Start date
- Location
- Vancouver, Washington
Thank you to Icywinter for discussing at least some of his concerns with Sara's War.
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- Location
- Malaysia
Well i read Sara's War on the last page....unless i' missing something..it doesn't seem all that bad....especially if the writer is a first timer who just got into the Kancolle bandwagon...he's got most of his facts nailed down...the only problem i could see was consistency.
Genolution
Hello there
- Location
- [DATA EXPUNGED]
Now I feel like kind of an asshole for laughing at these. I think I'm seeing my hypocrisy when I only get this feeling when it was being done to a fic I actually kind of liked.
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- Void of Observation
@Kiyone4ever
Since your fic has been discussed here, I would like to raise the issue of your other fic - your SBY2199/AoBS crossover.
I wanted to read it, but the way you did your exposition caused me to drop it. It was dull and confusing with quite a few holes in it (especially the explanation on how humanity and the Fog united), which turned me off immediately. The lack of any scene-setting did not help in any bit, especially when you were using the already inferior anime-continuity for AoBS.
Also, while the others have discussed the problem with Sara's War already, I cannot stress enough how important is it for you to capture the picture of soldiers interacting accurately. Saratoga inside the fic, alongside the Admiral's actions, was SoD breaking enough to not like it.
Since your fic has been discussed here, I would like to raise the issue of your other fic - your SBY2199/AoBS crossover.
I wanted to read it, but the way you did your exposition caused me to drop it. It was dull and confusing with quite a few holes in it (especially the explanation on how humanity and the Fog united), which turned me off immediately. The lack of any scene-setting did not help in any bit, especially when you were using the already inferior anime-continuity for AoBS.
Also, while the others have discussed the problem with Sara's War already, I cannot stress enough how important is it for you to capture the picture of soldiers interacting accurately. Saratoga inside the fic, alongside the Admiral's actions, was SoD breaking enough to not like it.
- Location
- Vancouver, Washington
It's easy to say that the anime is inferior to the manga. If you know the manga when you start. That said, I appreciate your time and commentary.
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- Void of Observation
Uh, no. As someone who watched the anime first before reading the manga, the chopping of many plotlines hurt the anime greatly.
- Location
- Vancouver, Washington
Uh yes. I had not even SEEN the manga when I started (As in not aware it existed). When other readers commented I was able to take a look at it and agreed that in most ways the Manga was not only superior in absolute terms but better for what I was attempting to do. This is why Chibi Kirishima, Repulse, Zordan Stark, and other notable characters from the manga are present in Blue Steel 2199 as it stands.
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- Void of Observation
Well there's your problem, as your explanations in the exposition felt really half-assed, as if all the issues and problems in the Arpeggio setting were just handwaved for the excuse to bring Gunzou and his crew into a whole new different setting, as well as give humanity that tech advantage.
Still, I digress. This is De3ta's thread for Kancolle madness - if you wish to continue this line of discussion, you may PM me.
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- Void of Observation
Double post, but I should also point out that's the same problem for Ambiance - that the barely hand-waved bullshit in the setting of the fic is just a vehicle for the garbage plot.
If you want to make any sci-fi reader interested in your works, you have to do careful, sensible world-building for your fic. Sci-fi of any sort requires a large level of immersion, and the best way you can do that is to show the setting, demonstrate the advancements/changes in the society along the way, gradually and slowly. In fact, it should be done like how the Soulsborne series/DOOM does their lore - revealing bits and pieces one by one to the player.
Take the exposition at the start of Ambiance - if Hackyuu was worth the salt he gets, he would have slowly, carefully revealed bits and pieces behind the setting, instead of just that stupid dump of info. At least I would be interested for a few chapters instead of ragging on it immediately.
And also, you have to make sense, but that's a given, right?
Riiiight?
*cricket noises*
In fact, that's what I do for Abyssal Collection, so go read it, ya bitches
(Yes, this post is just a plug for AC, and no, I'm not ashamed)
If you want to make any sci-fi reader interested in your works, you have to do careful, sensible world-building for your fic. Sci-fi of any sort requires a large level of immersion, and the best way you can do that is to show the setting, demonstrate the advancements/changes in the society along the way, gradually and slowly. In fact, it should be done like how the Soulsborne series/DOOM does their lore - revealing bits and pieces one by one to the player.
Take the exposition at the start of Ambiance - if Hackyuu was worth the salt he gets, he would have slowly, carefully revealed bits and pieces behind the setting, instead of just that stupid dump of info. At least I would be interested for a few chapters instead of ragging on it immediately.
And also, you have to make sense, but that's a given, right?
Riiiight?
*cricket noises*
In fact, that's what I do for Abyssal Collection, so go read it, ya bitches
(Yes, this post is just a plug for AC, and no, I'm not ashamed
)
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- Location
- Philippines
In fact, that's what I do for Abyssal Collection, so go read it, ya bitches
(Yes, this post is just a plug for AC, and no, I'm not ashamed
On a technical writing level, Abyssal Collection is a good story. You're a decent writer, Magician, which is far more than I can say for some writers I've known.
Unfortunately, I cannot bring myself to read your story past the first couple of chapters that I forced myself to power through.
This is not through any fault of yours as a writer. As I mentioned, you are a decent writer.
No, it's because of a flaw I've found in your premise that leads to a rather morbid interpretation of your scenario.
In your story, Wo explains that the Abyssals gained individuality, stopped attacking humans, and began building their own civilization.
Okay, that's an interesting twist. It's strange and unexplained, but I can suspend my disbelief because I am interested in how it will turn out.
Unfortunately, that does not change the fact that they still killed millions of civilians and soldiers during the early part of the war.
Now, one may argue that those deaths and injuries should not be held against the Abyssals since they were mindless at the time.
But the problem is that the Abyssals of your story did not attempt to contact the humans, ask for a ceasefire, explain themselves, and try to apologize for what they did.
If they did so, I would have been sympathetic to them. Especially if the humans were so blinded by rage and grief that they rejected the peaceful overtures of the now-sapient Abyssals and attacked anyway. The Abyssals would be the wronged party.
Instead, your Abyssals just withdrew from combat and built cities of their own. Which makes sense to them.
But you know what that would seem to the humans and ship-girls of that world?
The Abyssals are consolidating their gains. They're digging in. They have no intention of giving back what they took from humankind: The territory, the resources, the lives of all those sailors and merchantmen and civilians in the coastal cities that they decimated.
Your Abyssals have changed, yes. They're no longer mindless emotionless killing machines. But they have not changed enough to merit sympathy from me. I would not call them good; I would in fact call them foolish at best and selfish at worst because they only thought of themselves instead of reaching out to the brave new world before them.
I do not hate your Abyssals. But I cannot bring myself to like them. I will not root for them. I will not cheer for them. I will in fact cheer for their enemies, the ship-girls who are the antagonists of your story, because they have a much better reason to fight and defeat the Abyssals.
The only character in your story that I can relate with is your protagonist. I pity him. He is stuck on the Abyssal side and is forced to protect them against the ship-girls who are avenging all of the deaths and suffering that the Abyssals caused. Your hero is a victim, a prisoner; he needs to be freed from those bonds.
To close my observation, here is a painful lesson I learned from writing Tsun Silent, Tsun Deep, which is set during World War II.You can go through a lot of effort to make a character sympathetic. You can portray him as a good man who admired his warship so much because her spirit saved his life, he developed the means to summon the spirit of that warship.
You could show that he cares so much for his ship-girls that he actually sleeps with one, though a certain pirate torpedo spammer thinks he and Kaga are wrestling.
You could make it that he is the ancestor of a JMSDF admiral who is beloved by her ship-girls in another world where USS Enterprise became JDS Yonaga.
You could go out of your way to show that he orders his kanmusu to restrain the American ship-girl he accidentally summoned with minimal violence, instead of ordering her executed for attempting to kill him.
But when your readers realize that that same man gave Imperial Japan the means to prolong the Battle of Okinawa into a bloody stalemate... When you find out that he uses a certain lovable traffic cone as an assassin to eliminate threats to his ship-girls...
When they learn that a corrupted version of his summoning ceremony was used by his Army rivals to bring forth what turned out to be the Shinkai, the Abyssals, who proceeded to turn the Ryukyuu Islands into a hellhole...
[s͖͔i̞̻͚n̯͔͙͝k̟̪.͕̙̱̗̣̗̥.̶̰.̫]
[a̕l̪̣̩̭̙͜l̪̗̰̜͔̝̯ ̳̮̮o̪͉̼͘f̶ ̮͎̜̟̮̩yo̳͓u̜ ͖̥͓͜w͙̦i͈̥̜̯̘ĺ̥̖l̘̪̱̱͇̬ ̣̤̫̪̤s̝̳̺̰̩͟i͞n̖k̳̝͘.͍̦.̞̩͔̠.̫͝ ]
[s̱i̙͇̱̗nk͍̟͍͖̬ ̻ţ͓ǫ̝̻̦̹̱͇͔ ̨t͚h͍̣̞̗̀ȩ͇͚̘̣̦̗ ̻͡b̰̝̖̱̦̳̝o̰͈t̖̼̟t͔͠o̧͈̣͇͙m͕͈̳̜̰̲̳ ̛͈̜̱̖̼o̮̕f̴ t̥̰͞ḥ̰e̗͖͞ ̗͎̥̘̝̣s̷̹̺͉̠̰̱̖e̬̼͓͉̤̖a͉̫̘̙.̥̠̩̟̳̭̳̕.̴.̙̲̥͎]
[s͖̮̼̥͓i̻̣̤̫͓͙ͅǹ͇̪̜̝̝k͇̯ ̮̼̭̠̮̙ͅa͕̞l͚͔͍̳̯̼̝o̡̼͖n͍͉̰̞̬g̯͖̟̯͙̥̼s̠͘i̗͉̬̲d̝͇̬ͅe͔ ͇͓͉͓̀ṃ̝̤͠e̤̪̟̖̼͠ͅ.͇͕̟͙̫̖̟.̯̤̰̤.̲̣]
Well. You, too, would hate Rear Admiral Ryoichi Togo, descendant of Heihachiro Togo and commander of the Kanmusu of the Imperial Japanese Navy of 1945. You, too, would wish that the United States obliterate Yokosuka from the face of the Earth using nuclear weapons even if that meant all of the kanmusu will also die, because there are few worse fates that to be defending an Empire that espouses evil.
"Hello, Maya-sama."
"Ryo-kun... I'm so glad you're safe... I did not fail my charge. I protected you..."
"Ryo-kun... I'm so glad you're safe... I did not fail my charge. I protected you..."
You could show that he cares so much for his ship-girls that he actually sleeps with one, though a certain pirate torpedo spammer thinks he and Kaga are wrestling.
You could make it that he is the ancestor of a JMSDF admiral who is beloved by her ship-girls in another world where USS Enterprise became JDS Yonaga.
You could go out of your way to show that he orders his kanmusu to restrain the American ship-girl he accidentally summoned with minimal violence, instead of ordering her executed for attempting to kill him.
"Subdue her, Maya-sama. But try not to kill her."
But when your readers realize that that same man gave Imperial Japan the means to prolong the Battle of Okinawa into a bloody stalemate... When you find out that he uses a certain lovable traffic cone as an assassin to eliminate threats to his ship-girls...
"The exiles of the Floating World send their regards, Army dog."
When they learn that a corrupted version of his summoning ceremony was used by his Army rivals to bring forth what turned out to be the Shinkai, the Abyssals, who proceeded to turn the Ryukyuu Islands into a hellhole...
[s͖͔i̞̻͚n̯͔͙͝k̟̪.͕̙̱̗̣̗̥.̶̰.̫]
[a̕l̪̣̩̭̙͜l̪̗̰̜͔̝̯ ̳̮̮o̪͉̼͘f̶ ̮͎̜̟̮̩yo̳͓u̜ ͖̥͓͜w͙̦i͈̥̜̯̘ĺ̥̖l̘̪̱̱͇̬ ̣̤̫̪̤s̝̳̺̰̩͟i͞n̖k̳̝͘.͍̦.̞̩͔̠.̫͝ ]
[s̱i̙͇̱̗nk͍̟͍͖̬ ̻ţ͓ǫ̝̻̦̹̱͇͔ ̨t͚h͍̣̞̗̀ȩ͇͚̘̣̦̗ ̻͡b̰̝̖̱̦̳̝o̰͈t̖̼̟t͔͠o̧͈̣͇͙m͕͈̳̜̰̲̳ ̛͈̜̱̖̼o̮̕f̴ t̥̰͞ḥ̰e̗͖͞ ̗͎̥̘̝̣s̷̹̺͉̠̰̱̖e̬̼͓͉̤̖a͉̫̘̙.̥̠̩̟̳̭̳̕.̴.̙̲̥͎]
[s͖̮̼̥͓i̻̣̤̫͓͙ͅǹ͇̪̜̝̝k͇̯ ̮̼̭̠̮̙ͅa͕̞l͚͔͍̳̯̼̝o̡̼͖n͍͉̰̞̬g̯͖̟̯͙̥̼s̠͘i̗͉̬̲d̝͇̬ͅe͔ ͇͓͉͓̀ṃ̝̤͠e̤̪̟̖̼͠ͅ.͇͕̟͙̫̖̟.̯̤̰̤.̲̣]
Well. You, too, would hate Rear Admiral Ryoichi Togo, descendant of Heihachiro Togo and commander of the Kanmusu of the Imperial Japanese Navy of 1945. You, too, would wish that the United States obliterate Yokosuka from the face of the Earth using nuclear weapons even if that meant all of the kanmusu will also die, because there are few worse fates that to be defending an Empire that espouses evil.
- Location
- Void of Observation
Crap...
*sigh of relief* Thanks for the feedback.
As for your reaction... I think that's a bit of a waste. AC's biggest theme has always been about the clash of two civilisations over events that affected them in the past, whether the Abyssals deserve blame on the actions of their pre-sentient forerunners.
While I understand how you feel, dropping it now is a bit of a waste; pushing on you can see stories on both sides of the conflict, and perhaps understand more of each group, even if you have made up your choice in the matter.
I honestly suggest you read more, seeing how my writing isn't really a problem for you.
Well, I guess I succeeded on that front. I honestly thought people would be turned off given its a SI, but I guess trying to humanize my character really worked well.
- Location
- Philippines
You're welcome. I hope my analysis proves helpful.
Unfortunately, I'm the same guy who wrote biting parodies of Ambulance and dropped Eternity to hammer out 25K words of New Ironsides in just one month in response to a butchery of Kongou and American values. When I feel strongly about something, I am fully committed heart, mind, and soul. And I really cannot make myself like the Abyssals in your story.
On the other hand, I'm not dissuading anyone from reading your fic if they want to. It's just not my cup of tea, so to speak, but it's still better written than Ambulance or Lady Liberty. So I wish you well in your writing even though I cannot support your story itself.
SI isn't a big problem so long as readers can find something to sympathize with him about. And your protagonist is quite human and in a very unenviable position. It's just that the emotions he stirs in me does not extend to the Abyssals he is forced to protect. I'm fine with your hero, but the rest of the cast bugs me on a fundamental level.
- Location
- Void of Observation
Time to revise notes, I guess.
Again, thanks for the input. I'm always thankful for any criticism that comes my way, and what you said have genuinely helped me.
Honestly, I wish more people would step forward and tell me what to work on, what to improve and so on. Criticism always makes one's work better, and perhaps I would be a lot better at writing if I was a more prominent whipping boy. Alas, with such a small readership, I guess I will just have to make do with the advice that comes in once in a while *shrug*
-which is why most of us can't stand writers like Hackyuu, who genuinely cannot believe that anything is wrong with the drivel they push out, despite all the advice they get.
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CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Actually, I heard somewhere that Hackyuu is aware that Ambulance is shit. He just doesn't give a fuck and likes writing it more than he dislikes all the criticism.
Icywinter
50% ice, 50% winter
- Location
- ?
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Then if he doesn't really care all that much about the criticism, why did he put up a giant foreword in one of the chapters that called out this Let's Read?
Attempted Trolling is my guess.
AWACS Sky Eye
....
- Location
- Everywhere
Which chapter? the chapter 200?
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
He does care. He just likes writing this the way he wants to more.
- Location
- Malaysia
To use his exact terminology...he call it his "personal journey"...his dedication is...commendable....if nothing else.
- Location
- Malaysia
Wow got some hugs and a like for this....well thanks guys...at any rate i should clarify my stance on this matter, while it's certainly fun to critique a poorly written story, it's important to KNOW when and where to this....the guy who wrote Sara's war seems like a complete newbie...it isn't a bad thing it's just that he's new and he's learning the ropes...we should encourage him to do better and help him learn....contrast this with Ambulance...and well you get the picture.
- Location
- Vancouver, Washington
Well with Kancolle fics, I am a newbie. With fanfiction in general I'm something MUCH worse:
Self taught. Self taught people obviously aren't very good at self critiquing.
Fortunately I have gotten some good conversation as a result of all this. With work, I may yet improve.
Self taught. Self taught people obviously aren't very good at self critiquing.
Fortunately I have gotten some good conversation as a result of all this. With work, I may yet improve.
De3ta
Mae
- Location
- The hellish pit known as New Jersey
I know ya will!
- Location
- Vancouver, Washington
With the encouragement I have received here, I present a revision to the start of Sara's War
End of the line
I can only benefit from commentary.
End of the line
I can only benefit from commentary.
- Location
- Malaysia
Nicely done....so you're the writer for Sara's war, forgive me for not realising this sooner, well you just need some polishing up for your skills but really, your writing is pretty solid.