Dark Prince of Camelot

[KnightDisciple]

I don't get it. It seems fairly standard politicking by medieval Europe era? I mean, if I were one of the King of the many kingdoms that Artura declared her land by right of magic, I would be pissed too. Especially if she's just a bloody snivelling knight who went head over heels for a pretty boy of a prince.

And Gwynn's a total arse, it's as if things like a woman pregnant out of wedlock was not a thing in that time, knight lady or not. Or was there something else there between him and Lorelei? Or was it the man Lorelei slept with?

Do enlighten me, I don't read the Arthurian Mythos so the names don't jump at me like most of you.

Click to shrink...

Well, I think it's more a combination of things like "Prince Eli was already married" (which increases scandal/shame), and "Camelot is trying to hold itself to a higher moral/ethical standard".
Just because in the muddy mundane world "pregnant out of wedlock" was/is a thing that happens a lot, doesn't mean Camelot's most esteemed figures of virtue, nobility, and honor aren't held to slightly higher standards.

(Gwynn was maybe just personally jealous, but I can understand the reasoning of some kind of punishment being levied.)

 

[chocolote12]

Well, I think it's more a combination of things like "Prince Eli was already married" (which increases scandal/shame), and "Camelot is trying to hold itself to a higher moral/ethical standard".
Just because in the muddy mundane world "pregnant out of wedlock" was/is a thing that happens a lot, doesn't mean Camelot's most esteemed figures of virtue, nobility, and honor aren't held to slightly higher standards.

(Gwynn was maybe just personally jealous, but I can understand the reasoning of some kind of punishment being levied.)

Click to shrink...

Yeah, and nobody was anywhere near as liberal with that kind of thing as they are today. Having children out of wedlock did turn you into a pariah.

 

[Gally]

Wait.

So, England, but it's also a "thousand thousand years ago"?

Is that supposed to be 1,000 times 1,000, or 1,000 plus 1,000?

Click to shrink...

Wow, that's a question alright. Yeah, that's a question. Mhm. Pretty important question too. Yup. I should answer that one, as it is important and I should really get around to answering that yes okay. Because I have an answer to that question. Yes. Right.

 

[JoshieWoshie]

Wow, that's a question alright. Yeah, that's a question. Mhm. Pretty important question too. Yup. I should answer that one, as it is important and I should really get around to answering that yes okay. Because I have an answer to that question. Yes. Right.

Click to shrink...

Honestly, I had always been taking that statement as simply a more poetic and fancy way of saying: 'A really fucking long time ago'. But I'm sure you already have an answer prepared in a powerpoint slide filled with graphs and illustrations, backed with references to research articles and published books in perfect EEE style.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

I don't get it. It seems fairly standard politicking by medieval Europe era? I mean, if I were one of the King of the many kingdoms that Artura declared her land by right of magic, I would be pissed too. Especially if she's just a bloody snivelling knight who went head over heels for a pretty boy of a prince.

And Gwynn's a total arse, it's as if things like a woman pregnant out of wedlock was not a thing in that time, knight lady or not. Or was there something else there between him and Lorelei? Or was it the man Lorelei slept with?

Do enlighten me, I don't read the Arthurian Mythos so the names don't jump at me like most of you.

Click to shrink...

Well, so far it seems everyone but Merlin got gender flipped, so all the names are off. But Lorelei is very clearly the Lancelot (*cough*non-canon Mary Sue French self insert*cough*) analogue.

Given how she and Gwynn are likely already interested in each other, I would say the official story that Mordred got told is a cover-up engineered to save face and maybe give Lorelei the ability to act independent of Camelot. She was only banished for two years anyway, so it was clearly temporary. As for it ending the golden age, I would say that might have just a coincidence, and that Lorelei's banishment was a symptom of the changing environment that actually ended the peace. Or it could be true as is. I dunno.

 

[StellarMonarch]

"Gwynn of Vere"
"Gui-ne-vere"
"Guinevere"

 

[Gally]

She was only banished for two years anyway

Click to shrink...

Five. I changed it, deal with my authorly powers.

"Gwynn of Vere"
"Gui-ne-vere"
"Guinevere"

Click to shrink...

I'm way too proud of that one.

 

[Nevill]

Well, I think it's more a combination of things like "Prince Eli was already married" (which increases scandal/shame), and "Camelot is trying to hold itself to a higher moral/ethical standard".

Click to shrink...

It would be extremely ironic if Lorelei was pregnant with Gwynn's daughter (we know the two had an affair, though the timing may be off), and the whole exile was imposed by Arturia. After all, there was something about Gala that would make Mordred disappointed with Gwynn.

That would be one high ethical standard.

But it looks like most of the court believed in that Eli of Corbenic was indeed the father.

 

[Emerald Oracle]

Kind of the defining thing was the incestous origin though?

Click to shrink...

Indeed, but in most iterations of the myth Arthur is the father. Female Arthur is only something I've seen here, and in Fate. Now, Fate got around that by having Mordred be a homunculus creation that was the result of Morgana taking advantage of one of Merlin's pranks. Here though, we're pretty sure that Mordred is an actual human being, and not a magical construct.

A way to get around the whole "Morgana is responsible" thing without going for the direct incestuous lesbian rape, would be for her to have been responsible for his conception. It's clear that in this setting Merlin was probably always in love with Artura. He probably spent his life pining for her, and the whole Nimue thing (if it happened) was basically the exception that proved the rule. It'd be just like Morgana to come to him in a moment of weakness and use that to work an enchantment or otherwise manipulate things such that Artura had a child out of wedlock.

That'd be a major strike against Camelot given the whole Shining City on a Hill thing they had going. Even the Queen's greatest and most loyal knight was exiled for bearing a bastard. The Queen herself doing so would be a black mark against the very marriage that formed the foundation of Camelot! Especially since Mordred would then be Artura's primary heir, but perhaps not the Royal Consort's heir. This'd create a gigantic exploitable fracture in the foundations of Camelot itself!

It's also play interestingly into the relationship between Mordred and Galla. If Galla was truly Gwynn's child (as seems likely at present) then they were even more mirror images of one another.

 

[cokerpilot]

[X] Head to Gaming

 

[Shura12305]

Ten years after the start of the Golden Age, Lorelei returned from one of her many quests with a shameful confession to make. In a private audience with King Gwynn, she revealed that she had slept with Prince Eli of Corbenic out of wedlock and was pregnant because it. Such behavior was scandalous, especially to the foremost Knight of all the realm, and Gwynn banished Lorelei from Camelot. She would not return for five years, and her banishment marked the end of the Golden Age.

Click to shrink...

Sounds more like she told him she got pregnant from one of their trysts, and they both basically agreed to cover it up and had her banished to save the King face, and to keep Camelot from imploding from the drama bomb that that affair eventually turned out to be.

I suppose it's only natural then that his own heir's parentage is a complete mystery, though man this is some real thick drama, gotta wonder how exactly their teenage reincarnations talk about all this

 

[Marla]

Sounds more like she told him she got pregnant from one of their trysts, and they both basically agreed to cover it up and had her banished to save the King face, and to keep Camelot from imploding from the drama bomb that that affair eventually turned out to be.

I suppose it's only natural then that his own heir's parentage is a complete mystery, though man this is some real thick drama, gotta wonder how exactly their teenage reincarnations talk about all this

Click to shrink...

Most likely they don't. I mean, who would want to?

 

[Nevill]

Most likely they don't. I mean, who would want to?

Click to shrink...

It is implied that character dynamics stays the same between reincarnations, and that there are tensions between Gwynn and Merlin. It's not a question of 'want'.

Though without Lorelei it woudn't be the same. I mean, why would they be forced to commit similar mistakes if the major part of the love triangle were missing?

(actually, is it even a triangle when there are 4 participants?)

Sounds more like she told him she got pregnant from one of their trysts, and they both basically agreed to cover it up and had her banished to save the King face

Click to shrink...

I find it very unlikely that both parties were equally amenable to the arrangement.

Though pinning the parentage on (other) royalty sounds like a good excuse to raise the daughter in the court. A bargaining chip? Still, five years... There is something overly harsh in that punishment that I can't quite attribute to 'they both willingly decided it would be for the best'.

 

[Muer'ci]

Five years is a good time to disappear for if you don't want others to know how old your kid is, exactly. Kind of important if timing of pregnancy doesn't exactly fit the story.

As for "thousands of thousands years", Morgana did mention cycles. Maybe it's been, say, several centuries since Camelot's fall, but it's not the first time it's been several centuries since Camelot's fall.

Know what I mean?

 

[Zhead]

Morgana did mention cycles.

Click to shrink...

Um, uh, that was in my 'review'.
Meaning it's fanon.
I think.

Same with:

and that there are tensions between Gwynn and Merlin

Click to shrink...

The Love Triangle jokes are just that for now. I don't think we've actually had any confirmation on tensions between Merlin and Gwynn.

However, all this discussing has done has give me more madness to work with. Excellent.
Given past shenanigans, if there IS a triangle, it's Merlin/Matthew -> Artura/Annabelle -> Gwynn/Gavin. Gavin prolly doesnt return Annabelle's feelings to that level cuz Gwynn remembers Lorelei.

... Hell, what if Lorelei wanted to win that tourney to gain enough prestige so that she could pursue Gwynn without social crap? And Gwynn might have liked her a bit too, before Artura. Then things happened, and they got together behind Artie's back.


... Artuuuraaaa, did you NTR Lorelei by acciiiddeeeennnttt?

 

[Nevill]

The Love Triangle jokes are just that for now. I don't think we've actually had any confirmation on tensions between Merlin and Gwynn.

Click to shrink...

Not IC, of course, since we've only seen Merlin for the briefest of glances, but:

Artura was married to Gwynn when she had Mordred, but then there was the affair, and the whole civil war...

The only person who knew definitively who Mordred's father is was Artura, and she never told anyone. It was a big sore point for everyone involved, and continues to cause friction between each successive Merlin/Gwynn reincarnation.

Click to shrink...

So it's a bit more than a crack theory.

I don't know the timeline for the war, though. Do we know Gala's age compared to Mordred's?

 

[ShadowAngelBeta]

Babies out of wedlock? Oh, yeah. That was nasty back then, because that basically ruined a woman/girl's prospects for marriage. If they weren't just disowned or killed outright anyway. And remember, back then marriage was pretty much a young woman's (or even girl's) only and entire future.

... Artuuuraaaa, did you NTR Lorelei by acciiiddeeeennnttt?

Click to shrink...

By accident my ass. Merlin saw visions of the future, she just so happens to fall head over heels with a future King that has holdings large enough to make the other kingdoms sweat on its own and who's current King would challange her with pulling the sword in the stone out?

Oh no. There are a lot of implications in the little lines in that post. And you know, I might be able to overlook that a bit. Maybe she really did fall head over heels. Maybe it was coincidence... But she was ambitious. It's right there in the update, she was ambitious and told all the other rulers to Kneel to her.

Like I said, read between the lines and things get... interesting.

Um, uh, that was in my 'review'.
Meaning it's fanon.
I think.

Click to shrink...

You might have coined the term with that, but they have all been reincarnating and doing this song and dance for a while now. "Cycle" isn't an inappropriate term for it.

 

[Muer'ci]

Um, uh, that was in my 'review'.
Meaning it's fanon.
I think.

Same with:


The Love Triangle jokes are just that for now. I don't think we've actually had any confirmation on tensions between Merlin and Gwynn.

However, all this discussing has done has give me more madness to work with. Excellent.
Given past shenanigans, if there IS a triangle, it's Merlin/Matthew -> Artura/Annabelle -> Gwynn/Gavin. Gavin prolly doesnt return Annabelle's feelings to that level cuz Gwynn remembers Lorelei.

... Hell, what if Lorelei wanted to win that tourney to gain enough prestige so that she could pursue Gwynn without social crap? And Gwynn might have liked her a bit too, before Artura. Then things happened, and they got together behind Artie's back.


... Artuuuraaaa, did you NTR Lorelei by acciiiddeeeennnttt?

Click to shrink...

The wording was influenced by your 'review', yeah, but the idea was there since the first time I've read "thousand thousand". Basically i took that at face value and tried to figure out how it might happen.


Re: Lorelei, that's pretty much my read on her motivation for participating in the tournament.

Running into Artura must've sucked.

 

[Muer'ci]

Your mother weaves an enchantment so complex that you can barely comprehend its entirety. She traps your body in a crystal cage and banishes your soul to the void between worlds where nothing is or ever will be. She watches her friends fall around her and gathers their power, their souls, and flings them through time.

You see their souls awaken in new bodies, ignorant of their past. You see them awaken their power, fight together, lose, love and live together. You seem them stand up to the very darkness you marshaled to destroy them, time and again, and emerge victorious.

But then you watch them die, valiantly protecting the light. You watch the cycle begin again. And again. And again. You watch them fight the same battles, make the same mistakes, die the same deaths.

You watch the soul of your Mother awaken in Annabelle, and then you are torn from your vision and dragged back to the waking world.

Click to shrink...

So... yeah. Souls thrown through time, cycle that begins again and again...

Morgana likely knows, and it's the kind of thing she would taunt others with. Her actually doing so is, indeed, fanon, but the idea that there were a fair few more resets than our history would imply has merit, I think.

Like, most of the time Knights get their Happy End, but occasionally they fuck up so bad we reset all the way to post-Camelot.

And that's how you get thousand thousand years shoved in several centuries.

Hope that makes sense, and isn't to repetitive. I'm running a slight fever, and staying coherent is somewhat challenging ^^"

 

[ShadowAngelBeta]

Hope that makes sense, and isn't to repetitive. I'm running a slight fever, and staying coherent is somewhat challenging ^^"

Click to shrink...

Don't worry, you're making sense.

 

[Aioria]

Aaaaaaaand caught up.

Mind If I join this Quest? Seems cool.

 

[KnightDisciple]

So, I've been pondering the ultimate goal of Mordred at this point in time.
I see 2 broad goals.

1.) Destroy the Forces of Darkness. We never felt true loyalty to them, and we care more about people/humanity/the world. Sealing them away from Earth is acceptable as well.
2.) Break the Cycle. This isn't actually the same as "Kill Artura and the Knights". Ideally, they all get to live, they just stop being stuck in an endless loop of reincarnations. Their choices can more truly become their own. They become their own people more fully. And when they die, they pass on (I don't know what the "default" fate of the souls of mankind are in @Gally 's setting here, and I don't necessarily need an answer) like anyone else. Ideally that means they die of old age after spending their lives keeping the world safe (I don't think we're hugely opposed to them being protectors, just rulers). Then their power can be passed on to another generation. Who may make mistakes, but at least it'll be their mistakes.

 

[Gally]

I suppose it's only natural then that his own heir's parentage is a complete mystery, though man this is some real thick drama, gotta wonder how exactly their teenage reincarnations talk about all this

Click to shrink...

Most likely they don't. I mean, who would want to?

Click to shrink...

It is implied that character dynamics stays the same between reincarnations, and that there are tensions between Gwynn and Merlin. It's not a question of 'want'.

Though without Lorelei it woudn't be the same. I mean, why would they be forced to commit similar mistakes if the major part of the love triangle were missing?

Click to shrink...

Nevill's right, it's not a question of "want."

The enchantment that ensures the reincarnations aren't perfect. The Knights can't actually change, because they can't remember their previous lives (except in brief, plot-relevant spurts). They actually can't even learn The Arthur mythos for themselves, because there's a mental block in their heads similar to the spell you're using to hide your identity. You can try to tell them that Lorelei will have an affair with Gwynn which will lead to ruin, but it'll go in one ear and out the other.

Once it actually happens to them - then the block is lifted. And your return may have consequences for these mental blocks as well (but that's just idle speculation, Mordred hasn't really put a lot of thought into this yet).

I don't know the timeline for the war, though. Do we know Gala's age compared to Mordred's?

Click to shrink...

You'll learn next post.

Like, most of the time Knights get their Happy End, but occasionally they fuck up so bad we reset all the way to post-Camelot.

Click to shrink...

Mordred knows from his little mind-meld with Annabelle that the Knights have never had a happy ending. They often go out like heroes, foiling the bad guys' plots and buying the Earth some more time, but they always die, and die young.

Ironically, you know a lot more about the Knights' histories than they do. It's one of the bigger implications of your return.

Aaaaaaaand caught up.

Mind If I join this Quest? Seems cool.

Click to shrink...

The more the merrier! Glad you've enjoyed the quest so far.

 

[meganeshounen]

Mordred knows from his little mind-meld with Annabelle that the Knights have never had a happy ending. They often go out like heroes, foiling the bad guys' plots and buying the Earth some more time, but they always die, and die young.

Ironically, you know a lot more about the Knights' histories than they do. It's one of the bigger implications of your return.

Click to shrink...

Getting some Homura vibes there. In a good way.

Except we're not part of the loops, and we're antagonistic of the cast.

Mordred wants the Golden Ending, but it won't be easy, and there's only one chance.

 

[ShadowAngelBeta]

snip

Click to shrink...

Pretty much. Maybe with a side of ruling the world, some people seem to want to try that, but... Well, Camelot is gone, and this cycle is just... Cruel really.

*Suddenly GM post*

Very cruel.

Except we're not part of the loops, and we're antagonistic of the cast.

Click to shrink...

Except Camelot is dead and gone. We're not a villain anymore, we're a rogue now.

Probably. We really need Mordred's Motivation, and I am very glad that's being written up.