And would there there have been a famine?
Scissors Crisis - Wikipedia

Wikipedia said:
Like the blades of a pair of open scissors, the prices of industrial and agricultural goods diverged, reaching a peak in October 1923 where industrial prices were 276 percent of their 1913 levels, while agricultural prices were only 89 percent. The name was coined by Leon Trotsky after the scissors-shaped price/time graph.[1] This meant that peasants' incomes fell, and it became difficult for them to buy manufactured goods. As a result, peasants began to stop selling their produce and revert to subsistence farming, leading to fears of a famine.
(Emphasis mine)

So looks like the NEP also had chances of famine. This, without taking into consideration the fact that without mechanization the USSR would continue having regular famines of different size, just like Tsarist Russia did.

Edit: Not that Stalin's methods were good or humane ofc
 
It does matter who is in charge. A proponent of the nep, like Bukharin, would be very unlikely to commit the atrocities of Stalin in his pursuit of collectivization. You clearly aren't familiar with Soviet history and need to learn more

a question of scale is important here though. Stalin and especially mao were truly monstrous in the level of death and suffering directly flowing from their actions and beliefs. A bukharin led ussr would, imho, look more like a post Stalin ussr. Still oppressive and authoritarian, but lacking the truly heinous disregard for life and the rampant paranoia that characterized Stalin and that led to the death of millions. And it would also be a state more likely to liberalize sooner in the future. My only sticking point is if the nep program would be successful enough twenty years out and bukharin militaristic enough to fight hitler

this is so surreal considering the first thing a Turkish monarch would do in your fantasy of him would be to reclaim the title of caliph and then probably try and kill people like you.

they replaced a hero with a hero. The shock worker is nothing different than any other propagandized heroic figure.

Also this idea that the Russian monarchy was working well up until starving people stormed the palace and suddenly communism is truly bizarre. The tzar has to go, the bolsheviks then pitched a fit when the provisional government didn't immediately fall to their whim, but like, a transition to a more stable republic would have been better than maintaining the tzar

most monks weren't ascetic and they were privileged. A privilege of having lots of money or land

the will of even a democratically elected state, and britain's Democracy cred is shakey considering its actual electoral system, can be damaged by those in charge as they seek to manipulate or remove democracy to ensure their continuing power.

that is because you propose insanity and a world shrouded in ignorance and darkness the like we struggled to escape a century ago and are forever in risk of sliding back to, only this time with the added benefit of the same sort of assholes who launched Jewish progroms and sailed off to yacht while everyone in Europe was mobilizing for total war get nukes to ruin everything with

"people who disagree with me here are maoists" is such a crazy hot take I had to sit here and consider it I should respond to the post or report it.

you can because they continued to demand extortionate amounts of produce in the form of cash crops and their response to lowered profit from mass die offs was to literally fucking raise taxes. The British were worse for India than the Mughals.

india was also run for a short term profit factor for most of British rule, and aid would have dipped profits. It is literally the clearest example of what happens when a corporation is the state

there's some push and pull here. I'd argue that the ptlomies were better for Egypt than the archaemenids were, as the ptlomies empire centered on it and forced them to create a truly syncretic society. On the other hand, the seleucids were worse for Mesopotamia than the archaemanids were. Cause the seleucids were assholes. I don't really have much to say about the antigonids cause they disappeared way too fast. I guess it's a wash since they lost and died in a way reminiscent to the archaemenids, in a region that was not particularly loyal to their Persian overlords




Macedonia survived Alexander by centuries man. It was the romans that did Macedonia in

while Sulla was the last gasp of the republic, the republic was on life support for decades. It's military and economy hollowed out by a careless aristocracy that walked in its halls of power and any dissented voice shut down by any means including murder. You have to go back furthers to fix the republic. Also it was always a looter economy that survived by stealing shit from other people

I mean a war on terror prompted by being the occupying power over a nation that wanted its own self determination. Austria isn't the good guy. They launched a world war to maintain their imperialist state. The Slavs did not want or need their German and Magyar overlords.

not jokingly, Germans. Modern society has more foundation in Germanic traditions than Roman ones.
When I was speaking about restoring the Turkish monarchy, I was speaking about a figurehead Turkish monarchy. In fact the Ottoman Sultanate was a figurehead monarchy from 1908 to its abolition in 1922. I don't understand why constitutional monarchies, where the monarch reigns, but doesn't rule, is insanity, ignorance and darkness. Concerning the Russian Tsardom, I didn't claim, that it was working fine right up until the revolution. The Russian Tsardom ought to have enacted a far-reaching land reform stripping the landlords of most of their land in order to survive. It is a fact, that Abdullah Öcalan is inspired by Maoism.
 
When I was speaking about restoring the Turkish monarchy, I was speaking about a figurehead Turkish monarchy. In fact the Ottoman Sultanate was a figurehead monarchy from 1908 to its abolition in 1922. I don't understand why constitutional monarchies, where the monarch reigns, but doesn't rule, is insanity, ignorance and darkness. Concerning the Russian Tsardom, I didn't claim, that it was working fine right up until the revolution. The Russian Tsardom ought to have enacted a far-reaching land reform stripping the landlords of most of their land in order to survive. It is a fact, that Abdullah Öcalan is inspired by Maoism.
If the monarch is just a figurehead, then what's the point?
 
I would rather like sources for this if you don't mind, can't find much of that unless you just mean general Marxism-Leninism, in which case yes of course, he was one until a decade ago.
I mean Maoism specifically. PKK are Maoists, not Soviet-style Marxist-Leninists. The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of the two largest parties in South (Iraqi) Kurdistan, is historically a pro-Soviet socialist party, but is today a social democratic party. I personally prefer Soviet-style Communism to Maoism, because Maoism is far more extreme than Soviet-style Communism. Mao was anti-intellectual and ordered mass destruction of Chinese cultural heritage. Khmer Rouge was an extreme version of Maoism.
 
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I mean Maoism specifically. PKK are Maoists, not Soviet-style Marxist-Leninists. The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of the two largest parties in South (Iraqi) Kurdistan, is historically a pro-Soviet socialist party, but is today a social democratic party. I personally prefer Soviet-style Communism to Maoism, because Maoism is far more extreme than Soviet-style Communism. Mao was anti-intellectual and ordered mass destruction of Chinese cultural heritage. Khmer Rouge was an extreme version of Maoism.
Right, you've said most of this before, your opinion of Maoism and Soviet Communism.
But I was asking for your sources that Ocalan and the PKK are Maoists or influenced by Maoism, since I can find no proof of that.
 
Right, you've said most of this before, your opinion of Maoism and Soviet Communism.
But I was asking for your sources that Ocalan and the PKK are Maoists or influenced by Maoism, since I can find no proof of that.

Look, you're not going to get a good answer. Earlier in the thread he said the Rojava are Maoists.
 
We should return to our old Pagan culture and religion, as a better way to preserve the environment and fight for social justice.
 
We should return to our old Pagan culture and religion, as a better way to preserve the environment and fight for social justice.

Which ones? Pagan religions are often just as patriarchal as modern ones, if not more, and if I can say one good thing about modern religions it is that there are a lot fewer child sacrifices.
 
No thanks, Islam does right by me just fine.

(Also it implies religions don't change and adapt over time, and that's most certainly false)
 
I mean a war on terror prompted by being the occupying power over a nation that wanted its own self determination. Austria isn't the good guy. They launched a world war to maintain their imperialist state. The Slavs did not want or need their German and Magyar overlords.

I mean, some did. A boatload of war crimes were committed on Serb civilians and it was Austro-Hungarian Slav minorities doing a lot of it.

I agree Austria can get fucked and Serbia was entirely fine in campaigning for release of the Serbs held captive by Austria, but the Black Hand and the Serbian royalty didn't want independence for all, they wanted a union of the south Slavs under Serbian domination.
 
It does matter who is in charge.

->Great Man Theory of History.
->Soviet Union.

Well, that's a weird juxtaposition. But no, probably not. For the simple reason that for Bukharin to be in charge, you can't have the Soviet system. What Lenin set up would ultimately reward Stalins, not Bukharins.
 
It's more like just adopting Neo-paganism which are just updated to fit our modern sensibilities, i.e Wicca.
I don't agree, that everybody should adopt a specific region in order to solve the problems of society. I support secularism and religion being a private matter.

Jews adopting Paganism is unthinkable, because Jewish identity is based on Mosaic monotheism. Paganism has far better prospects in Europe than in the Middle East, because in the pre-Islamic Middle East, Christianity and Zoroastrianism were the predominant religions. In Egypt, one tenth of the population are still Coptic Christians and in Kurdistan, Zoroastrianism is presently the most popular alternative to Islam.
 
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I don't really accept the idea that political fragmentation is good for progress which shows up in a lot of analysis of why Europe pulled ahead of China technologically. It's true that political fragmentation creates more room for innovation, but political centralization also has important benefits; it means fewer trade barriers, less resources squandered or destroyed in war, and more coordination. And in the case of why Europe pulled ahead of China, I think that was a historically contingent event and history could probably have easily turned out differently, and insofar as geographical factors contributed to the OTL outcome, Europe being harder for a single political entity to conquer wasn't the only one and might not have been the most important. Just breaking up China into a bunch of different competing states is pretty much my least favorite way to set up a "China has a scientific-industrial revolution first" scenario.

We should return to our old Pagan culture and religion, as a better way to preserve the environment and fight for social justice.
One of my controversial opinions about history is kind of the opposite: I think Christianity may have been an important cultural precondition for modern science and liberalism. Christianity was an important source of ideas like "God doesn't like privileged people better, in fact it's harder for them to please Him and they have extra obligations to help their less fortunate brethren," and "revenge and pride are bad motivations," and "being able to casually demand sexual favors from people shouldn't be treated as a natural perk of being a high-status man" and "nature is a single unified system with consistent rules, not a mess of arbitrary actions by a thousand different gods and spirits." I'm not going to say it was the source of those ideas, because those ideas existed before it and elsewhere, but I think it gave them a big boost and benefited Western civilization and ultimately humanity as a whole by doing so. To be fair, I think there was a big cost to that; "paganism" was much more accepting of religious diversity and I think in that way "paganism" was much better than Christianity (and Islam), so I think Christianity was at best very much a "two steps forward, one step back" trade. I suspect Christianity is close to the source of why the West is weird, and ... the author of that essay speculates about how the psychological weirdness of Westerners might make us deficient, but I have kind of the opposite perspective, I think the psychological atypicality of Westerners is strongly connected to Western culture's material and moral strengths (I guess that's another controversial opinion about history that I have).

I have an I guess probably controversial opinion that's downstream from this, which is that the people who think the Middle East's problems are because of Islam are not entirely wrong but at the same time are exactly wrong. I think one source of the Middle East's problems is that Islam failed to break the pre-Christian culture in the Middle East the way Christianity did in Europe. I figure it had to do with Islam being a victim of its own early success in a way. Christianity spent a long time as a weird persecuted fringe movement, and movements like that often actually draw solidarity from being alienated from the surrounding society and seeing themselves as a tiny island of virtue in an ocean of sin, and then Christianity took over society from the bottom up, by organically moving itself and its weird fringe values toward the center of the Overton Window. Islam had a much shorter period as a weird persecuted fringe movement, and then quickly became "The Man" and shifted to taking over society from the top down, and that meant early Islam had much more incentive to make itself palatable to privileged people and accommodate their values and interests. You can see this in how, for instance, Christianity is more radical about having a sexual morality that's functionally a culture war weapon aimed at the historical default sexual privileges of high-status men.
 
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I don't really accept the idea that political fragmentation is good for progress which shows up in a lot of analysis of why Europe pulled ahead of China technologically.

Personally I blame the mongols, and the Song being shitty at being good generals.

I think Christianity may have been an important cultural precondition for modern science and liberalism.

There were great flourishings of science and liberalism outside Christendom, though. The Islamic World, as you mentioned, but Hindu India and Confucian Korea also stand out.
 
There were great flourishings of science and liberalism outside Christendom, though. The Islamic World, as you mentioned, but Hindu India and Confucian Korea also stand out.
I think this is partly an issue of how you define "science" and "liberalism," and partly an issue of those things existing vs. those things achieving something approaching cultural hegemony. If you define science and liberalism broadly and look at places where they had some cultural influence, you can probably find those conditions in lots of times and places, but there are important ways in which the Western scientific-industrial and liberal revolutions were unique (no other historical process transformed the world so radically in so short a time).
 
less resources squandered or destroyed in war,
Technical innovations in warfare might actually be enough. Then you can just steal all your wealth from others and use that to kickstart the industrial revolution.

Aside from the printing press, there really weren't that many really important innovation when Europe started to pull ahead of its competition that were not connected to war that I can think of.
 
Aside from the printing press, there really weren't that many really important innovation when Europe started to pull ahead of its competition that were not connected to war that I can think of.
I think improved sailing ships were probably crucial to putting Europe on a path to the Great Divergence - in a way that was very much connected to war and conquest, but I think the technology itself was basically upstream from that.
 
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