Honestly, we can probably work with just about anyone in France that isn't a communist or a mouth frothing revanchist. Let's not limit ourselves, our path to mending bridges will be hard enough as it is.
[Continuation] Schwarz-Rot-Gold: An Interwar Germany Quest
- Thread starter mouli
- Start date
- Alt. History
mouli
Terrible QM
- Location
- United States
As a reward, choose from one of the below:
1) Out-of-character information on China, namely recent very important medical diagnoses that will be kept private until 1925 unless this is taken.
2) A shift in the Biennio Rosso, with the PSI (Italian Socialist Party) actively now backing the striking workers in northern Italy (IRL was relatively passive). This ratchets up tensions in Italy and polarizes things further.
3) A number of British soldiers who once played for first-line clubs and decided to stay in the army have formed an 'Army XI' in the Rhineland and are playing any and all German teams who come. This has interesting consequences for German football. Remember that as of 1920 England is the football nation.
Edit: The first option will not happen unless taken, i.e. I may not have a divergence unless that option is definitely taken. The third option is a more understated reward, but sports was a national outlet in the interwar, and football was not a small thing. The first international championship at the Olympics is in 1924.
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- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Interesting, I'm leaning towards the second option, anyone has an opinion on the choices presented? I'm guessing the first is related to Sun Yat Sen's medical condition, maybe it was diagnosed early and will thus prolong his life? That could make our interactions with China interesting. Not so sure about the third one though, I know nothing about football, which is disgraceful considering my Brazilian heritage 
Charles Dewitt
A Paladin With No Self Confidence
- Location
- Middle of Nowhere Appalachia
Oh come on! Option 3 would be so fun! After winning the German cup you need to defeat the secret end boss, the British Team!
- Location
- United States
Clearly, we have to pick the football option to restore Germany's national pride and find positive outlets for excessive nationalism.Interesting, I'm leaning towards the second option, anyone has an opinion on the choices presented? I'm guessing the first is related to Sun Yat Sen's medical condition, maybe it was diagnosed early and will thus prolong his life? That could make our interactions with China interesting. Not so sure about the third one though, I know nothing about football, which is disgraceful considering my Brazilian heritage
Plus, it's funny.
I also vote for taking the football option. We need something fun and lighthearted to happen in addition to the ceaseless wars and conflicts.
I wanted football at first too, but after thinking, pick first: even a small chance to prolong Sun Yat's life is worth it.
(Semi-Canon Player Omake) After Action Report, Case White, Reward TBA
Operational Analysis: Case White
Case White Encompasses all operations of the Reichswehr on the Eastern Front of the Civil War from April 1920 to July 1920.
Prelude: After the chaos of the Triad's Putsch and the KPD's uprising, the Republic was in a precarious position. Flanked from both sides by the insurgent forces, with the KPD controlling the largest industrial centre of Germany and attempting to rise up in several other cities nominally under Republican control, and the Triad having taken with them half of the army, officer corps and the best farmlands of Germany, the Republic's chances of survival looked grim. Yet it endured. By analysing the operations undertaken by the Reichswehr during the civil war, the tactical situation on the ground and the strategic situation hanging over the three participants, we may be able to find out how, and more importantly get a glimpse at the future of warfare.
As of April the battle lines on the Eastern Front had settled on the Oder and Neisse river lines. Two drafts were pushed forward; Case Yellow, an aggressive attempt to break through the defensive terrain and into the Prussian plains, where the rolling stock advantage of the Republic could be used in order to outmanoeuvre the Triad forces, and Case White, a defensive approach which would attempt to attrition and delay the enemy using the River Lines to its full advantage, taking advantage of the Triad's inadequacy when it came to expanding or replacing their forces, as a result of the lack of war industries in their territories. After a strategic analysis, Case White was chosen as the operational concept on the Eastern Front.
April - May
The first month of the war proper saw an aggressive push by concentrated Triad forces up the land bridge between Oder and Neisse, which managed to reach but halted at Frankfurt an der Oder. Republican forces managed to delay Triumvirate forces successfully, with a lack of decisive advantage on both sides proving telling. The Triad managed to concentrate its forces initially, but the Republican forces could afterwards use the rail lines to rapidly reinforce the critical sector and stabilize the front. Both sides took significant attrition, roughly 4 regiments worth of manpower each.
May-June
The second month of the war, despite being undergunned and somewhat outnumbered, the Republican forces decided to attempt to take a stand in Frankfurt and der Oder, likely partially due to political considerations. The Triad attempted a diversionary attack across the river in the north, and a stronger, concentrated push across the Neisse river in the south in order to pin the Republican Forces and set up an attack on Frankfurt an der Oder from two directions. The northern attack was easily rebuffed thanks to fresh reinforcements, hampering this plan, and neither the southern push nor the attack into Frankfurt an der Oder were clean successes for the Triad. Republican attempts to counterattack into Frankfurt an der Oder were foiled by light coastal artillery repositioned into the area and the lifting of shell restrictions for the Triad's forces, however they were successful in denying more staging areas. Casualties were again mostly even by all appearances, and significant, although it is possible they were more in the Republic's favour thanks to the Northern Offensive being rebuffed so harshly. The Republic took actions during this period to accelerate cadet training and consolidating and upping the firepower of Freikorps, rather then attempting to simply fill the gaps with more men. The numbers involved were starting to look somewhat precarious for the republic as a result, but the quality of their units saw an increase in return, twice so as the less capable units attrited away.
June-July
The third month of the war might be pointed to by some as the 'turning point' of the Eastern Front, while others may regard it as the inevitable conclusion resulting from the previous two months actions. A short and violent assault continuing on their gains in the previous month, accompanied by diversionary attacks across the Oder was enough to draw in Republican reserves in anticipation of a decisive push in the centre. As it turns out this was a feint, and the Triad managed to take advantage of it in order to cross the Neisse with a daring night assault. The war turned mobile for almost two weeks, as the Triad managed to apply their advantage in training, junior leadership and cavalry to outmanoeuvre Republican forces, and strike for Berlin. The General in charge of Third Army also misjudged the aim of the offensive, prioritising the defence of industrial centres in Saxony rather then Berlin. However, things quickly stabilized when Infantry Division 'Deutschland' deployed to meet their thrust, and the enemy lacked the numbers to achieve numerical superiority anywhere. As a result the attack stalled, and the enemy was left in a precarious position, significantly overextended both regarding their supply situation and the troops to frontage ratio. Despite the impressive speed they managed to maintain for a less then impressive week, they were still unable to leverage this to cause large casualties on Republican Forces; The losses were again mostly even, predicted to be higher on the Triad's side. They also had at this point run out of their capacity to reinforce their high combat power units, as Abwehr intelligence noted that their Infantry Divisions were getting consolidated and militia units raised to replace them. Their shell situation was predicted to be poor, and their most impressive units were all stuck in the salient they've created, exhausted and unable to rest and refit. Their situation had gone from poor to terrible, and the republic was ready to counterattack.
July-August
A very large influx of reinforcements, three (3) fresh Divisions, and the reallocation of another heavy artillery regiment up from one (1) to (2) allowed the Republic to embark on what could be called the most ambitious offensive of the war. Rather then limiting itself to merely punishing the overextended forces in Saxony, the Republic decided to lunge over the Oder near Stettin. Internal Unrest delayed the original plans to pressure the Saxon Salient, but after a week that too commenced. Steady pressure on the south combined with the Northern Lunge managed to dismantle their forces completely; after three weeks of fighting the Baltic ports had been seized, and just afterwards most of their forces in the South had been forced to surrender while desertions across every level of the Triads forces apart from their High Command had reached crippling levels. Shortly after an unconditional surrender arrived from Königsberg as the military leadership and civil servants had revolted after the Triads plan for a total defence of Eastern Prussia had been unveiled. 3 months of hard fought offensives had degraded the whole house of cards the Triad had built, and all that was needed to bring the whole thing down was kicking the door in.
Tactical Analysis:
The war has brought two points into focus above all else; the success of our Infantry reforms as to achieving breakthroughs while limiting losses in personnel, and the continued failures of exploiting said breakthroughs. The triad managed to leverage a small but noticeable advantage to impressive effect compared to the battles of 1914, as breakthroughs were achieved without the appalling loss of life seen during the great war. Some of that can be attributed to the lower troop density, however a larger part can be pointed towards the many advances in the tactics and equipment of German Infantry Divisions. Despite this however the Triad could never leverage this into more decisive blows; the Republics mostly equivalent troop quality kept the Triad from inflicting disproportionate losses, and even when they managed to completely outmanoeuvre the Republic in June they failed to inflict large casualties nor gain a strategic advantage. This lack of exploitation points towards the need to motorise the army; Cavalry are unable to bring the firepower needed to apply modern German doctrine. The potential of tanks to multiply the firepower of such a mobile force should also be stressed, and efforts to develop this equipment, despite the treaty, should be attempted in order for the Reichswehr to compete with its peers in the future.
Woof, that was a chunky post. An analysis of the wargame as played out in the first quest over at SpaceBattles. 2 more posts are planned, one covering the Western Front against the KPD and then an overall Strategic Analysis and conclusion. Not part of the writing prompts, but I've had this in my mind for longer.
Case White Encompasses all operations of the Reichswehr on the Eastern Front of the Civil War from April 1920 to July 1920.
Prelude: After the chaos of the Triad's Putsch and the KPD's uprising, the Republic was in a precarious position. Flanked from both sides by the insurgent forces, with the KPD controlling the largest industrial centre of Germany and attempting to rise up in several other cities nominally under Republican control, and the Triad having taken with them half of the army, officer corps and the best farmlands of Germany, the Republic's chances of survival looked grim. Yet it endured. By analysing the operations undertaken by the Reichswehr during the civil war, the tactical situation on the ground and the strategic situation hanging over the three participants, we may be able to find out how, and more importantly get a glimpse at the future of warfare.
As of April the battle lines on the Eastern Front had settled on the Oder and Neisse river lines. Two drafts were pushed forward; Case Yellow, an aggressive attempt to break through the defensive terrain and into the Prussian plains, where the rolling stock advantage of the Republic could be used in order to outmanoeuvre the Triad forces, and Case White, a defensive approach which would attempt to attrition and delay the enemy using the River Lines to its full advantage, taking advantage of the Triad's inadequacy when it came to expanding or replacing their forces, as a result of the lack of war industries in their territories. After a strategic analysis, Case White was chosen as the operational concept on the Eastern Front.
April - May
The first month of the war proper saw an aggressive push by concentrated Triad forces up the land bridge between Oder and Neisse, which managed to reach but halted at Frankfurt an der Oder. Republican forces managed to delay Triumvirate forces successfully, with a lack of decisive advantage on both sides proving telling. The Triad managed to concentrate its forces initially, but the Republican forces could afterwards use the rail lines to rapidly reinforce the critical sector and stabilize the front. Both sides took significant attrition, roughly 4 regiments worth of manpower each.
May-June
The second month of the war, despite being undergunned and somewhat outnumbered, the Republican forces decided to attempt to take a stand in Frankfurt and der Oder, likely partially due to political considerations. The Triad attempted a diversionary attack across the river in the north, and a stronger, concentrated push across the Neisse river in the south in order to pin the Republican Forces and set up an attack on Frankfurt an der Oder from two directions. The northern attack was easily rebuffed thanks to fresh reinforcements, hampering this plan, and neither the southern push nor the attack into Frankfurt an der Oder were clean successes for the Triad. Republican attempts to counterattack into Frankfurt an der Oder were foiled by light coastal artillery repositioned into the area and the lifting of shell restrictions for the Triad's forces, however they were successful in denying more staging areas. Casualties were again mostly even by all appearances, and significant, although it is possible they were more in the Republic's favour thanks to the Northern Offensive being rebuffed so harshly. The Republic took actions during this period to accelerate cadet training and consolidating and upping the firepower of Freikorps, rather then attempting to simply fill the gaps with more men. The numbers involved were starting to look somewhat precarious for the republic as a result, but the quality of their units saw an increase in return, twice so as the less capable units attrited away.
June-July
The third month of the war might be pointed to by some as the 'turning point' of the Eastern Front, while others may regard it as the inevitable conclusion resulting from the previous two months actions. A short and violent assault continuing on their gains in the previous month, accompanied by diversionary attacks across the Oder was enough to draw in Republican reserves in anticipation of a decisive push in the centre. As it turns out this was a feint, and the Triad managed to take advantage of it in order to cross the Neisse with a daring night assault. The war turned mobile for almost two weeks, as the Triad managed to apply their advantage in training, junior leadership and cavalry to outmanoeuvre Republican forces, and strike for Berlin. The General in charge of Third Army also misjudged the aim of the offensive, prioritising the defence of industrial centres in Saxony rather then Berlin. However, things quickly stabilized when Infantry Division 'Deutschland' deployed to meet their thrust, and the enemy lacked the numbers to achieve numerical superiority anywhere. As a result the attack stalled, and the enemy was left in a precarious position, significantly overextended both regarding their supply situation and the troops to frontage ratio. Despite the impressive speed they managed to maintain for a less then impressive week, they were still unable to leverage this to cause large casualties on Republican Forces; The losses were again mostly even, predicted to be higher on the Triad's side. They also had at this point run out of their capacity to reinforce their high combat power units, as Abwehr intelligence noted that their Infantry Divisions were getting consolidated and militia units raised to replace them. Their shell situation was predicted to be poor, and their most impressive units were all stuck in the salient they've created, exhausted and unable to rest and refit. Their situation had gone from poor to terrible, and the republic was ready to counterattack.
July-August
A very large influx of reinforcements, three (3) fresh Divisions, and the reallocation of another heavy artillery regiment up from one (1) to (2) allowed the Republic to embark on what could be called the most ambitious offensive of the war. Rather then limiting itself to merely punishing the overextended forces in Saxony, the Republic decided to lunge over the Oder near Stettin. Internal Unrest delayed the original plans to pressure the Saxon Salient, but after a week that too commenced. Steady pressure on the south combined with the Northern Lunge managed to dismantle their forces completely; after three weeks of fighting the Baltic ports had been seized, and just afterwards most of their forces in the South had been forced to surrender while desertions across every level of the Triads forces apart from their High Command had reached crippling levels. Shortly after an unconditional surrender arrived from Königsberg as the military leadership and civil servants had revolted after the Triads plan for a total defence of Eastern Prussia had been unveiled. 3 months of hard fought offensives had degraded the whole house of cards the Triad had built, and all that was needed to bring the whole thing down was kicking the door in.
Tactical Analysis:
The war has brought two points into focus above all else; the success of our Infantry reforms as to achieving breakthroughs while limiting losses in personnel, and the continued failures of exploiting said breakthroughs. The triad managed to leverage a small but noticeable advantage to impressive effect compared to the battles of 1914, as breakthroughs were achieved without the appalling loss of life seen during the great war. Some of that can be attributed to the lower troop density, however a larger part can be pointed towards the many advances in the tactics and equipment of German Infantry Divisions. Despite this however the Triad could never leverage this into more decisive blows; the Republics mostly equivalent troop quality kept the Triad from inflicting disproportionate losses, and even when they managed to completely outmanoeuvre the Republic in June they failed to inflict large casualties nor gain a strategic advantage. This lack of exploitation points towards the need to motorise the army; Cavalry are unable to bring the firepower needed to apply modern German doctrine. The potential of tanks to multiply the firepower of such a mobile force should also be stressed, and efforts to develop this equipment, despite the treaty, should be attempted in order for the Reichswehr to compete with its peers in the future.
Woof, that was a chunky post. An analysis of the wargame as played out in the first quest over at SpaceBattles. 2 more posts are planned, one covering the Western Front against the KPD and then an overall Strategic Analysis and conclusion. Not part of the writing prompts, but I've had this in my mind for longer.
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- Pronouns
- He
@Mr. Sandman
I´d advise number 1. Sun Yat Sen survival could mean a more stable china which would massively profit any cooperation between us and them
I´d advise number 1. Sun Yat Sen survival could mean a more stable china which would massively profit any cooperation between us and them
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Unlikely you say? That is different than impossible, interesting...
Yeah, that's what I thought as well, might take that one. Anyone has thoughts on what benefits option two might bring us?
- Pronouns
- He
Making the situation in Italy worse maybe? I don´t really see how it would have benefits us though
Southern Italy would rely on us even more. We saw how everyone around us benefited from our war. And they would need more of our guns with food and coin to buy it with. Additionally it would weaken Italy a potential rival in the Balkans and create a new international issue to draw attention away from us for good or bad.
Now I still feel football is best, it is a great distraction for our people and helps build ties with the UK along with allowing us to potential build up our international reputation and relations through football.
- Pronouns
- He
how does football beat out a potentially stable china as our partner against japan and the soviets in the east.
Sun Yat Sen is a legitimately awesome person, pretty much the best option China has. Him surviving to fullfill his great vision of saving china would have more consequences on history than anything else that happened so far, especially if it is german medicine that saves the father of modern china
- Location
- United States
Are you sure that's what the option actually is?
I don't see anything about Sun Yat-Sen or somebody surviving anything, we just get OOC info on an 'important medical diagnosis.'
Because all of those are more distant possibilities that help far away from home. Most of our issues in the short and medium term are all focused on Europe, Sun Yat Sen is a brilliant man, but even before his death he was failing to achieve what he wanted and even if he did it is a lot less directly helpful than building relations with the Uk who is still one of the most powerful nations in the world, a neighbor, and one of our main creditors.
- Location
- USA
Signal boosting this, it says OOC information, and whatever it is would probably happen anyways. We just get to be OOC explicitly aware of it.
It is unlikely to happen unless picked as a reward. In the end it IS a reward, so at a minimum it will probably give us opportunities to leverage it into something advantageous for us.
- Pronouns
- He
What he wanted? Yes since he wanted to created a chinese united states, a liberal modern democracy and considering that he had to work with an highly backwards agrarian, at places downright primitive society that never had any experiences whatsoever with democracy, that he managed to create a highly corrupt republic before his death is already extremely impressive and if he lives he may yet achieve more. I´d say saving chinese George Washington/Mustafa Kemal is defenitively worth more than the short term gains of football.
That is, if that options saves him, instead of us simply finding out that he is dying which, well, not a big shock. Than the football option is the better one
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Sun Yat Sen died in 1925, so his medical diagnosis would become very relevant then. I can't think of anyone whose health would become suddenly significant then in China, so I'm pretty sure that's what it is.
Eh, the benefits would take a while to pay off, and they wouldn't be very tangible in the first place.
Yeah, that was my take as well. We already know ooc he will die in 1925, and the QM did describe this as a divergence. My guess is that he finds out what is his condition earlier and gets treatment, to if not save them, prolong his life. A more united China can make bigger purchases and engage in heightened Sino-German cooperation.
By the point he started getting treatment, his cancer had metastasized, progressing to stage IV (Which even today has a 2% survival rate over 5 years.). A medical intervention before could have significantly prolonged his life, radiotherapy and surgery were available by the 20s. Here is an analysis of his disease.
If I do pick this option (an ideia I am warming up to), and I am guessing right, you might be interested by this @mouli (it is pretty short and concise, but insightful):
Milestones in Cancer Research and Discovery
During the past 250 years, we have witnessed many landmark discoveries in our efforts to make progress against cancer, an affliction known to humanity for thousands of years. This timeline shows a few key milestones in the history of cancer research.
www.cancer.gov
Also, if you want me to just pick something now instead of endlessly divagating jk, please tell me!
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Dutch
Bored Spearman of the Wind
- Location
- CET
I'm betting that it won't save him, but it will allow him to make more preparations for after his death.
For those wondering what this is all about. Sun Yat Sen died of gallbladder cancer which had already spread to his liver at the time when it was discovered. Gallblader cancer is treatable if it's caught early, but also uncommon and lacks specific signs and symptoms. If you catch it in the later stages, then uh, boy...
It's also the gallbladder, which isn't your standard place to start looking.
That's with our current knowledge on cancer anyhow, not early 20th century knowledge.
For those wondering what this is all about. Sun Yat Sen died of gallbladder cancer which had already spread to his liver at the time when it was discovered. Gallblader cancer is treatable if it's caught early, but also uncommon and lacks specific signs and symptoms. If you catch it in the later stages, then uh, boy...
It's also the gallbladder, which isn't your standard place to start looking.
That's with our current knowledge on cancer anyhow, not early 20th century knowledge.
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- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Since back then the main definitive method of diagnosing cancer was exploratory surgery, then they'll either find it in the gall bladder or completely miss it. Since this a divergence, I doubt the latter would be the case, which would mean a pretty early diagnosis. Which in turn could mean he could survive this, he'll live till later than OTL for sure I think, the question is if he'll be cured and die of natural causes later on, or his treatment doesn't catch everything, which would still mean he'd likely live longer.
- Location
- United States
It should be noted that getting Sun Yat-Sen an early diagnosis would be of peripheral benefit to Germany and would take a long time to provide returns to our situation. It'd be putting the KMT in a better position, not weakening Italy or bolstering our stability and prestige in the long-term.
- Location
- USA
What's he doing in China?