This is how the attacks (notice the plural) turned out:
My forward group of shooters was sunk. Overwhelming saturation attacks claimed them once they ran out of missiles to shoot them down. I thought I had killed the last wave with four whole missiles to spare ("gee golly!"). Then another wave appeared 2 minutes later...
Lucky, I was able to spot it early enough to mitigate some of the damage. IE I was able to get their AShMs off their rails. All 32 of them. So I have at least 64 fewer defensive missiles to worry about, and even managed to claim a single FFG. The major victory was, when my missiles were detected the ENTIRE Indian fleet started illuminating, allowing me to pick out the CV in the middle of their formation. This means instead of having to pick between 3 probables with my newly reduced missile stockpiles I now can send all my combat power in a single decapitating strike. It also means I can focus my anti-radiation missiles on the most capable AAW platforms they have. For icing on the cake they've fired 112 AShMs so far, so their offensive magazines have to be running out....
52
The other 60 are an even-ish split between Sizzlers and Grizzlies.
Basically, once I was moderately certain that they had exhausted (most) of their stockpile of rocket-powered Death-Eaters I started putting out feelers for their capabilities do some house cleaning. I sent up 4 J-15s with ARMs with three missions:
Knock the Indian ASW and AEW helos out of the sky. I don't want what's happened to my surface assets to happen to my subs, nor do I want it to happen again to the same surface forces.
Run-down as much of their high-end SAM inventory as possible. I don't want want them to start interdicting missiles 70nmi out once the party starts.
If the opportunity presents itself, slam a high spend anti-radiation missile into one (or more) of the 3 DDGs they have running defensive line for the carrier.
I was successful on all three counts, I swept 4 or 5 helos from the sky; including, by sheer dumb luck, catching them changing over AEW helos on station and splattering them both.
And after volleying off all 16 ARMs I managed to get a hit on one of the DDGs. Not really a huge outcome, but a symbolic victory for me.
At this point I'm playing the positioning game. My remaining SAG (a DDG and two FFGs) is actually pulling both Indian fleets, as both are pursuing to engage it. I set it on a course north at flank speed (29 knots) which will keep it in range to engage with AShMs but not closing into gun range before the CVBG is in range to use all of its AShMs. As that would be a completely one-sided slaughter (my SAG against the gun line of the combined Indian Fleet with 4 DDGs and 5 FFGs). That being said, the Indian CVBG is steaming at 18 kts, their SAG is at 25 kts.
Wait a second...25kts....18kts....then one of the Indian FFGs breaks away from the SAG.
"Interesting."
Napkin math: For every hour I steam, the Indian SAG will create ~20 more minutes of distance between itself and the Indian CVBG. My own CVBG is coming in perpendicular to them so this doesn't effect it's own intercept much. I've already dumped their remaining AShMs, so loss of missile inventory isn't a concern. It only takes a couple minutes of concentrated fire to put a ship out of action and the Indian SAG is in a much looser formation than my own (they have roughly 4nmi of spacing between ships, while I only have 1nmi). I outnumber them now 3 to 2. My plan basically forms itself in my head.
I plot a course northeast for my SAG, with the Indian SAG about 45nmi immediately south and the Indian CVBG about 40nmi west of it. My own CVBG is directly to the east of the two and about 100nmi away. I'm aiming to simplify my intercept while positioning for a (literal) gun fight. At this point a Kilo pops up because I've been pinging away with active sonar the whole time and I launch a helo and torpedo it. Like this but underwater.
<Time Passes>
The battlefield is now getting pretty compact, I've strung out the Indian forces and tightened u my own formation a bit. My CVBG is almost in range to bring the entirety of it's missile inventory to bear on the Indian carrier (even the C-802s). I order an about face on the part of my SAG and bore in at flank speed. The first ship doesn't stand a chance. Two of my ships (the DDG and one of the FFGs) are able to engage the Indian FFG immediately. I order a full stop on their part to make the most of the time I have before the DDG gets in range. The Indian ship is able to fire ineffectually for about 45 seconds before all of it's guns are out of action. It doesn't take much longer to send it under, but that's all the time the Indian DDG needed to get in range of my unengaged FFG and knock it's radar and engine(!) out. It's sunk by a string of lucky hits, before I can get the other two ships engaged.
Part of the problem with the DDG is that it has a longer range gun than my ships. So it's able to score as my ships approach. Once in range though it's still 1 on 2, and all that entails in a gun battle, but it's still able to knock out all of batteries on my remaining frigate before it's own guns are silenced. So I order them to resume a course to the northeast before I end up cruising into range of the mountain of that is the Indian CVBG and it's escorts' guns.
Now, all the pieces are in place. My subs are sitting 25nmi and 40nmi south of the Indian CV, with my CVBG 60nmi to the east of it and likely undetected.
I load up the targeting menu, launch the 4 J-15s that have C-803Ks loaded and do the quick math on how to get max dakka hitting the target at once. The Indian carrier ends up with 46 missiles aimed at it, with a handful of others aimed elsewhere.
I sit with rapt attention as the range closes and the Indians realize they're under attack and energize their radars. The missiles counter on the CV goes down with each successful interception as they empty their magazines at the swarm. I realize I've won when the Indian carrier's closest escort starts using it's CIWS to shoot down the missiles and there are still 28 coming. I hit the carrier and win. Then keep hitting it and win big as it begins to sink. At least 10 missiles hit it once it was derelict and the scenario was finished.
I managed to sink 2 DDGs, a FFG, a SSK, and the carrier (embarked airwing included, natch) itself. I lost 2 DDGs, 3 FFGs, the Spy Trawler (at some point they got wise and had a helo ID it, then smoked it), 5 J-15s, and 5 helos.
SIDE: China
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
5x J-15 Flying Shark [Su-33 Copy]
5x Z-9C Dauphin 2
1x Type 053H3 Jiangwei II [564 Yichang]
1x Type 051 Mod 4 Luda I [109 Kaifeng]
1x Type 051B Luhai [167 Shenzhen]
1x Type 052B Luyang I [168 Guangzhou]
1x Commercial Large Trawler [1,250t DWT]
1x Type 054A Jiangkai II [530 Xuzhou]
Of particular note. If this had actually happened (this would not happen) in real life It would have involved more AShMs fired in anger than in the (open source) history of warfare (230 v 222).
Quoting because I like the picture more than I like 53 degree days (11.6 degrees Celsius).
Anyway, this is gonna be one of those kinda boring serious face posts I sometimes make. I'll probably spin it off into another thread (which itself is meant to be spun off into something else).
--------------------------------------------------------- Successful attacks on protected shipping by air in the contemporary era, a how to guide by the (second*) best Command player on SV**:
I usually use a mix of ISR aircraft, electronic attack aircraft, airborne decoys, anti-radiation missiles (ARMs), and long-range anti-ship missiles (AShMs).
The ISR platform, I always use something with serious electronic intelligence/electronic surveillance measures (ELINT/ESM), is for finding/tracking/discriminating the target. The electronic attack planes are for pushing back the range of their sensors, to give me room to work without exposing my aircraft to attack and to shorten the amount of warning they get so they can't get in as many shots on my missiles. The decoys are used to trick reluctant ships into emitting so I can fix and discriminate them, additionally I use them to make my targets waste their defensive missile inventories (I do this by trickling in decoys in a wide spread so that excess missiles can't be redirected onto other targets, making the minimum number of missiles they burn for each decoy killed 2), as a bonus my aircraft can usually carry 4 decoys as opposed to 2 AShMs doubling the effect each aircraft has on my targets missile inventories. Once I've sussed out who's who in the body of ships I send in ARMs, this burns more of the missile inventory. I may save a few (half or a quarter) for the actual main attack as they'll be able to slip through and damage radars (I think I've seen radars shut down in response to them too but I haven't been able to reproduce the behavior). The long range AShMs are the sunday punch, they're what's going to knock my target out of action. I usually pick the ones that allow me to sit comfortably outside of range of hostile response.
This attack happens over the course of only a couple of minutes and when I pull it off it's a thing of beauty, especially when i get my timing right and my surface launched AShMs are hitting at the same time.
Every other force outside the US naval aviation lacks those capabilities, the USAF is a close second with MALD-Js being subbed in for jammers and pulling double duty as decoys, but they are poor substitutes and the USAF still lacks AShMs but has JSOW. The UK and France are in the same boat with Hammer/Exocet/Brimstone, but minus the jammers. From there is a gaggle of nations who have to rely on LGBs and a bottom tier of nations who don't even have those (I suppose the actual bottom is nations without air forces).
Let's start with basic principles: Successful attacks are dependent on not coming under attack before you're able to launch your own attack.
Your aircraft have to get to within ~35nmi for weapons like JSOW (Brimstone/Exocet/Hammer), ~5nmi (LGBs/Mavericks) or 1nmi (iron bombs). If you're attacked before then you may never be able to get your shots off before you lose your aircraft (can't drop bombs while trying desperately to break SAM lock) and if you o manage your bombs will straggle in a slow stream, making your attack much more manageable.
You can not afford to exhaust missile magazines via attrition. Quite simply, you are probably going to lose aircraft in these attacks. If your initial attacks are shut down you're only going to get weaker on repeat attempts. Go hard or go home.
The horizon is the best stealth feature an aircraft can have on its side, and it's free.Most of these forces lack VLO airframes, so just fly low and either use another sensor platform or pop up well within detection range (and I do mean well within, if you don't get solid detection you may or may not be boned). It's literally the only thing that makes this workable.
Now on to brass tacks. In order to walk before we start run the first target is a lone PLAN Type 052D AAW Destroyer.
For attackers I'm using 4x F-16Cs equipped with BLU-109s***.
Initial detection (not solid) of the Type 052D, was with the F-16s RWR ~115nmi, they were counter-detected at about the same time (solidly, they're being tracked).
Type 052D finally tracked/ID'ed at 20nmi by the F-16s, the F-16s as low as possible (46m) to break the track and continued on.
Mutual detection/tracking of each other as the F-16s crested over the horizon at ~24nmi (F-16s still not ID'ed by Type 052D).
Initiate climb to 3650m (just above minimum release altitude for the BLU-109s, or any LGB really) during the ingress from 20nmi out.
Type 052D positively ID's F-16s' Mk1 Eyeball at 3nmi, F-16s still not ID'ed.
Weapon release at 2.2nmi, 8 bombs away, F-16s STILL NOT ID'ed!
F-16s designated as hostile (but still not ID'ed) as a result of weapons release. CIWS (FL-3000N missiles, ROF 1 per second 2 missiles each for 4 aircraft equals 8 seconds of free flight time for the bombs then another 14 before the last bomb is even engaged) used for defense because the attack is inside the minimum range of the Type 052D's HQ-9.
F-16s ordered to dive back to 46m and kick it up to afterburner. This is the fun part, a race for the bombs to hit and disable the HQ-9s before the F-16s clear it's minimum range.
Attack completed; first two bombs shot down, third malfunctioned (Laser Spot Tracker spoofed by chaff), fourth hit and destroyed both fore and aft VLS (with the HQ-9s inside), FL-3000N launcher, and main gun.
Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh bombs hit and sealed the ship's fate, instantly sunk (8th bomb disappeared into ether). Two F-16s shot down.
For ideas of how this work with more/less capable platforms:
Anything with an active or passive seeker head (IIR, EO, etc) doesn't need the attacking aircraft to survive.
It's better to launch a larger number of bombs/missiles 500lbs bombs are better than 2000lbs which are better than Deep Throat, Brimstone and SDB dominate this game. I only use BLU-109s because I can only carry 2 bombs regardless of how big they are.
The F-35 is king shit of this tactic, the combination of highly capable ESM (you'll get a solid track from it before you even enter it's maximum detection range), VLO (you can cruise well into their radar range and fire from outside of his detection range in some cases), and available weapons (Brimstone, SDB, JSOW) is basically unbeatable.
For aircraft without PGMs, you're going to have to increase the attacking force considerably (between 8 - 12) and expect to take lots of losses (most of which will die with a full load of bombs on their rails). Reason being they'll be engaged before they fire and immediately bank off target when they go defensive. You'll have to overwhelm their launcher's ROF with your strikers to get your bombs off. Once they're away though you'll likely completely overwhelm the system, even if you miss as they will attempt to shoot them down. If a string of hits doesn't outright sink your target then any strikers with bombs left will preform follow-up attacks. If the ships don't die then you need to bring more strikers next time (Fission Mailed).
Here's an info graphic to help you visualize:
The blue half circle is my aircraft (the F-16s). The red square is the Type 052D. The yellow circle is the radar horizon (it's actually the range of it's surface search radar but that's the exact same thing when dealing with surface ships). The green line is the ingress route. The red line is the egress route.****
Turn off "RTB when Winchester" in the group RoE.
Minimum altitude at cruise once you detect your target (dive to the deck and coast in unobserved).
Medium altitude at military power as you ingress. Once you hit the horizon of your target (or where you think it'll be).
Release weapons just before you hit the way point (~2nm from the target).
Minimum altitude at afterburner as you egress until you get passed the point where you first reacquired your target.
Manual plot your egress out of their weapon range and drop your speed.
DO NOT RTB until you're clear of their weapons/sensors (the game RTBs at max altitude, you'll be shot at doing that).
*Possibly third.
**Alternate title: "How to attack ships when you're not playing the US Navy" ***I'll explain this later if someone reminds me (but seriously remind me, I'll forget).
****I'll also explain this in the next post, but I'm already making typos like crazy so it'll have to wait.
You can not afford to exhaust missile magazines via attrition. Quite simply, you are probably going to lose aircraft in these attacks. If your initial attacks are shut down you're only going to get weaker on repeat attempts. Go hard or go home.
Kind of Scrub*, actually. I really like how the fact that you've only just now figured out what used to be Swedish Air Force Maritime Strike doctrine.
Before we got RBS 04 in the 1960's (well, okay, it was still relevant if the RBS 04 was not equipped).
Of course, there's two, minor elements that can still be improved.
1: You want to spot your target with something other than the attacking element - either a recon aircraft, a sub, a boat, or a fixed radar installation. - Attacking elements should appear out of nowhere with no warning, and immediately disappear after release.
2: You want to hit with several groups of aircraft from multiple directions, and preferably AShMs/torpedoes/gunfire from naval/coastal arty, at the same time. - MORE DISTRACTIONS! More likely to kill the enemy, more likely to leave your own side alive.
EDIT:
* That said, yes - it's tricky to execute, well done. Now practice until it's second nature.
There's an official Command scenario called "Sea of Fire", a Falklands War clash that illustrates these anti-ship principles quite well. Try to go in at high altitude and you'll get a face full of SAMs.
Fly towards target at minimum altitude.
When close to target, pop one aircraft up to altitude above horizon to confirm target location (if necessary).
- If target is not where expected, adjust attack vector and continue.
- If target is not found, abort - not enough fuel to search, not enough planes to risk losses.
All aircraft to minimum launch height - fire.
All aircraft to deck.
Egress towards land.
RTB when covered by friendly AD.
Kind of Scrub*, actually. I really like how the fact that you've only just now figured out what used to be Swedish Air Force Maritime Strike doctrine.
Before we got RBS 04 in the 1960's (well, okay, it was still relevant if the RBS 04 was not equipped).
Of course, there's two, minor elements that can still be improved.
1: You want to spot your target with something other than the attacking element - either a recon aircraft, a sub, a boat, or a fixed radar installation. - Attacking elements should appear out of nowhere with no warning, and immediately disappear after release.
2: You want to hit with several groups of aircraft from multiple directions, and preferably AShMs/torpedoes/gunfire from naval/coastal arty, at the same time. - MORE DISTRACTIONS! More likely to kill the enemy, more likely to leave your own side alive.
EDIT:
* That said, yes - it's tricky to execute, well done. Now practice until it's second nature.
I never had a reason to learn, because I hadn't come across a scenario that required me to learn it. I was always given an "out" in the form of really robust standoff naval strike options (with included support) or enough sub/surface-launched missiles to overwhelm the defenses. I was also looking at what would work specific to CMANO. That's real life tactics work for the most part with minimum "gamey-ness*" was a pleasant (but somewhat expected) surprise.
1. I was specifically denying myself "crutches" like off-board sensors. Just to see how I'd be forced to attack without them (a great many strike aircraft were lost in the making of that post).
2. Yeah, I could do that. But that would mean I'm a good player, and we can't have that**.
The high altitude is probably because F-16s aren't real naval strike aircraft. Depending on what I use the minimum altitude will change. Helos, and some fixed wing aircraft can get down to 6 meters. Which is like, the balliest shit ever (waves are that high on the ocean).
*There are a couple aspects that are inaccurate, but I'm pretty sure I can "fix" one of them and the other isn't that big of a deal.
1. I was specifically denying myself "crutches" like off-board sensors. Just to see how I'd be forced to attack without them (a great many strike aircraft were lost in the making of that post).
1.1 Keeping in mind - I was not suggesting using an external platform to keep eyes on the target, but just getting at least enough spottings (two or more) to get a general location and heading, and then plotting an intercept/attack vector by dead reckoning.
1.2 If you're not losing aircraft (to accidents or the enemy), you're not taking enough risks.
2 Getting there, though.
The high altitude is probably because F-16s aren't real naval strike aircraft. Depending on what I use the minimum altitude will change. Helos, and some fixed wing aircraft can get down to 6 meters. Which is like, the balliest shit ever (waves are that high on the ocean).
I have no idea how to clear a minefield in this game. Or even find one. I tell my helicopters to use their dipping sonar but I don't really get anything.
I have no idea how to clear a minefield in this game. Or even find one. I tell my helicopters to use their dipping sonar but I don't really get anything.
Has to do with parodies and reality being hard to tell apart. I think the land mines thing was a joke, but I can almost see them doing that, so I dunno.
Has to do with parodies and reality being hard to tell apart. I think the land mines thing was a joke, but I can almost see them doing that, so I dunno.
The high altitude is probably because F-16s aren't real naval strike aircraft. Depending on what I use the minimum altitude will change. Helos, and some fixed wing aircraft can get down to 6 meters. Which is like, the balliest shit ever (waves are that high on the ocean).
There are a number of factors at play, including crew proficiency, terrain avoidance / terrain following capability (e.g. an F-16C with LANTIRN has an inherent advantage vis-a-vis an early F-16A), sea state (pilots automatically bump their minimum safe altitude a few meters if they see big waves), day / night visibility and a few other things.
