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Capitalism ho! Let's Read Kengan Asura

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no. said:
For all that Kengan can be sexist, I don't really have that much a problem with all the Kengan Fighters being male. The difference in strength between men and women matters more in some sports than in others, but in combat sports it's a huge factor. Kengan treats weight classes like a big deal, and generally aims for a feeling of heightened reality more than it does outright fantasy(barring a certain J. Lee, but fuck him), so it makes sense for that difference to also be respected. I do wish women got to do more in this series in general though.
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It gets very weird especially when you look at Strike It Rich, his manga in the same setting about women combat sports. Not that it has many chapters, but the way they portray certain characters makes you think they could measure up to some Kengan characters. Yet at the same time there are constantly comments from characters in the audience saying things like "oh step on me" and such and things like a competent but boring fighter getting criticized because people would obviously only ever watch women fight for the "sensuality" of it.

But it doesn't seem to narratively treat it like that. And it's just like... I really can't get a handle on what the author thinks between all their works.
 
Having not read Kengan Omega before, I'm actually surprised by this outcome. There was a ton of work setting up Akoya as the ultimate heel in the tournament, which would narratively make him a natural match against Ohma as the protagonist. Also, Cosmo took a ton of damage here! From the way it's framed and sold, I've got doubts about his ability to fight next round. This introduces the opportunity for backroom shenanigans. I'm digging the subversion, looking forward to seeing what happens next.
 
dugong said:
There was a ton of work setting up Akoya as the ultimate heel in the tournament, which would narratively make him a natural match against Ohma as the protagonist.
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The thing here, I think, is twofold: first that this tournament actually has several protags, despite Ohma being the actual narrative one, and second that, given Ohma is about to go fight one of the tournament's other big heels, it would get a bit repetitive to have him fight Mr. Acorn Blues over here. Although it would make for a good contrast since Ohma is also dealing with an obsession of his own that he's learning to let go of.

That said, Kengan Asura does subversion of expectations really really well.
 
And here we have it! I remember reading this fight for the first time and being incredibly impressed at how it interweaves not just Cosmo and Akoya's matches from round 1, but also multiple other moments scattered about the tournament's first round. Characters receive development and fleshing out even when they aren't directly fighting, and this match pulls together a *lot* of elements and weaves them into a cohesive whole. Pretty dang masterful, and by god what a high water mark for the quality of matches in this manga.

Get ready, though, cuz the fucking deluge is coming.

Also, I wanna spotlight Walter's point here. Yeah, Cosmo has been wrung out like a dishrag. He has all of his round one injuries, plus like twice as many sustained this round. And Akoya?

Akoya has none. He got bruised a bit, sure. But he's barely hurt, while his vanquisher is on death's door. I think that's the real impact that weight classes have on this story.
 
As someone who has actually tried to bite another dude in the testicles, I can testify to just how much of a mental switch needs to be flipped in order to go there. It's one of those things that gets drilled into boys from a very young age as they rough-house. It's a horrific escalation. You're not supposed to bite, you're not supposed to hit someone in the nuts, and you are definitely not supposed to try to combine the two. And if you try, the other guy has moral carte blanche to kick your face in.

On the flip side, your attempting to do it establishes you as an absolute fucking nutter. It's a way of telling other people not to mess with you because if it will not be worth the damage they are likely to take. That even if they put you in hospital you will be in adjacent gurneys.

Suffice to say, after that incident, that dude stopped trying to fuck with me aside from the occasional verbal.
 
Akoya's total injury tally is one scratched eye, a somewhat sore back from slamming himself on a wall and the ground multiple times, and a bit of a scuffed chin. That's basically all I remember him getting, and all of it was towards the end of the fight.
 
no. said:
For all that Kengan can be sexist, I don't really have that much a problem with all the Kengan Fighters being male.
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I do! The gap between men and women gets constantly oversold regardless, especially by battle manga, and while Kengan Asura is heightened reality it's not the sort of heightened reality that has any excuse to give a shit. And on top of that we're working with the oversized eugenics program that is the Kure clan, even if we grant that women are actually such fragile and delicate creatures that it's impossible for even the strongest one in history to fight on even terms with the weakest man in this tournament (which I don't, in case it isn't obvious) then there's still no excuse! The Kure are superhuman at baseline!

And ultimately, I probably wouldn't even have commented if Sandro didn't bring it up. I don't like being a broken record, I try not to bring up the gender politics in this Let's Read too much because if I talk about it every time it's relevant I wouldn't have enough breath left for anything else. But this comment, especially in regard to a character treated like Karla is, just raises my fucking hackles every time I think about it. The extra clarification is so fucking unnecessary. He could have left it at "she's super strong by the standards of this manga" but chose to dump that extra mile.

(My venom is aimed at Kengan Asura and fiction like it, to be clear, not you.)
 
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Man, I wish I could like this match as much as some people do, but I just… I don't like Akoya and I don't care for Cosmo. Akoya I just dearly wish has a heart attack offscreen and Cosmo is cool, sure, but something about him specifically going through that arc puts me off. Maybe it's the age thing. That said, it is undeniably technically well executed, the referee fakeout especially is just mwah.
 
no. said:
For all that Kengan can be sexist, I don't really have that much a problem with all the Kengan Fighters being male. The difference in strength between men and women matters more in some sports than in others, but in combat sports it's a huge factor. Kengan treats weight classes like a big deal, and generally aims for a feeling of heightened reality more than it does outright fantasy(barring a certain J. Lee, but fuck him), so it makes sense for that difference to also be respected. I do wish women got to do more in this series in general though.
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I don't think that perspective really holds water on examination

Like sure, physical differences in size and strength matter in a fight

But Cosmo here is 19 years old, stands at 5'6'' and weighs 150 lbs
And he's fighting a guy who's 31, stands at 6'3'' and weighs 251 lbs
Akoya is nearly a foot taller, a hundred pounds heavier and built like he's got tree trunks for arms compared to Cosmo
And Cosmo walked into that match already saddled with the kinds of injuries that would cancel a fight in a "realistic" competition
Oh sure, he's the underdog, the David to Akoya's Goliath
And he gets utterly fucked up achieving that victory
But at no point does the idea of Cosmo fighting Akoya get treated as some kind of unthinkable, ridiculous notion by the peanut gallery

Hanafusa's an inch taller than Cosmo and weighs 137 lbs
And he fought Bando, who's 6'6'' and weighs 324 lbs, nearly two hundred pounds heavier
Now, Hanafusa's a medical freak of nature with bone blades built into his arms
But what about that has anything to do with him being a man, exactly? If Hanafusa were a woman what exactly would have changed about the medical nonsense about turning her femurs into bone blades, surgically altering her hypothalamus to not feel pain, or being able to unsnap her neck and restart her heart on command?

The very first fight in this whole series was Ohma squaring up against a guy so big he was built like a giant upside down triangle on legs
Who would not shut up about how much bigger and stronger he clearly is and how Ohma obviously stands no chance
And then Ohma obliterates him


Kengan likes to actually address weight classes and physical differences when it feels like it, sure
But it's also very eager to show how smaller, less physically powerful fighters can still hold their own and present a threat
Unless they're women, Kengan treats the idea of a woman fighting a man as completely inconceivable
It doesn't mock the idea, it just doesn't seem to ever even think of it as a thing that can happen at all

Karla's as close as it will ever get, where the manga is willing to half heartedly talk about how she's strong (and even there it feels the need to add "for a woman" as a qualifier even though she's explicitly superhuman), but she will never actually fight anyone
 
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Let's not forget that later on we have coming up the one fight where Wakatsuki is the tiny guy on the floor

CrimsonOddball said:
But what about that has anything to do with him being a man, exactly?
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Hey, if any guy was ever gonna work out magic HRT and transition into a guy, it would be Hanafusa.
...shit that'd make for a good mad scientist character, became a mad scientist while trying to discover magic HRT and then just kept going weirder and cooler
 
CrimsonOddball said:
I don't think that perspective really holds water on examination

Like sure, physical differences in size and strength matter in a fight

But Cosmo here is 19 years old, stands at 5'6'' and weighs 150 lbs
And he's fighting a guy who's 31, stands at 6'3'' and weighs 251 lbs
Akoya is nearly a foot taller, a hundred pounds heavier and built like he's got tree trunks for arms compared to Cosmo
And Cosmo walked into that match already saddled with the kinds of injuries that would cancel a fight in a "realistic" competition
Oh sure, he's the underdog, the David to Akoya's Goliath
And he gets utterly fucked up achieving that victory
But at no point does the idea of Cosmo fighting Akoya get treated as some kind of unthinkable, ridiculous notion by the peanut gallery

Hanafusa's an inch taller than Cosmo and weighs 137 lbs
And he fought Bando, who's 6'6'' and weighs 324 lbs, nearly two hundred pounds heavier
Now, Hanafusa's a medical freak of nature with bone blades built into his arms
But what about that has anything to do with him being a man, exactly? If Hanafusa were a woman what exactly would have changed about the medical nonsense about turning her femurs into bone blades, surgically altering her hypothalamus to not feel pain, or being able to unsnap her neck and restart her heart on command?

The very first fight in this whole series was Ohma squaring up against a guy so big he was built like a giant upside down triangle on legs
Who would not shut up about how much bigger and stronger he clearly is and how Ohma obviously stands no chance
And then Ohma obliterates him


Kenga likes to actually address weight classes and physical differences when it feels like it, sure
But it's also very eager to show how smaller, less physically powerful fighters can still hold their own and present a threat
Unless they're women, Kengan treats the idea of a woman fighting a man as completely inconceivable
It doesn't mock the idea, it just doesn't seem to ever even think of it as a thing that can happen at all

Karla's as close as it will ever get, where the manga is willing to half heartedly talk about how she's strong (and even there it feels the need to add "for a woman" as a qualifier even though she's explicitly superhuman), but she will never actually fight anyone
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Also, "fun" part about Kaela! We get her height and weight in the chart here:

Now, if I plug those numbers in to a child's BMI calculator for her age, we get, uh:

Now, like... lol, no. She's short, sure, but like, she was legitimately ripped when we saw her and even now (although she's used more for fanservice which she's fucking 16 ew) she's clearly got abs and definition on her arms and the like.

There was no reason to make her like, legimitely kinda thin (this is even lower if you use an adult BMI calculator) for her height and age! Why!
 
As far as the "Cosmo took a lot more damage", that is absolutely true but I do feel it's important to point out if he held on to that triangle choke instead of letting go at the ref stoppage Akoya would be straight up dead, JIU JITSU JIU JITSU STRONGEST WAY OF FIGHT TAP SNAP OR NAP
 
no. said:
For all that Kengan can be sexist, I don't really have that much a problem with all the Kengan Fighters being male. The difference in strength between men and women matters more in some sports than in others, but in combat sports it's a huge factor. Kengan treats weight classes like a big deal, and generally aims for a feeling of heightened reality more than it does outright fantasy(barring a certain J. Lee, but fuck him), so it makes sense for that difference to also be respected. I do wish women got to do more in this series in general though.
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I don't think this video's been posted in this thread, but it seems relevant to the discussion at hand.

View: https://youtu.be/AaEGOLr0vqI&t=497

I realize the video's kinda rambly (I'd suggest watching the bits after 8 minutes until you think the point's been made, then go to 30:15 or something), so TL;DW:

Women's weight classes are borked. The upper weight limit for many female combat sports—that is, the upper limit for the highest weight class—is close to average for women (mentioned right after the timestamp the video should start at); by contrast, the upper limit for male combat sports range from "well above normal male weight" to "theoretically infinite". Female fighters therefore are more likely to need to manipulate their weight to compete at all, a problem which even affects women's sports without weight classes to some extent.
The video also touches on other issues female MMA fighters face, but it's obviously focused on weight classes, as per the title.

It might be true that the average women MMA fighter would lose to the average male MMA fighter. However, a significant part of that comes down to how women MMA fighters need to be small to average women who have probably starved and/or dehydrated themselves, either to make their weight class or because their trainers have absurd body standards, while the men are big dudes encouraged to bulk up. Not exactly an even playing field!

I could see some of these factors affecting a hypothetical Kengan women's division; the people running the Kengan tournament aren't anywhere near woke enough to correct for systemic misogyny. But none of this should apply to Karla. Assassins don't have weight classes, and if the clan has figured out how to make Super Saiyans, they probably know better than to make their women lose weight just because.


Estro said:
Now, like... lol, no. She's short, sure, but like, she was legitimately ripped when we saw her and even now (although she's used more for fanservice which she's fucking 16 ew) she's clearly got abs and definition on her arms and the like.

There was no reason to make her like, legimitely kinda thin (this is even lower if you use an adult BMI calculator) for her height and age! Why!
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I feel like the previous part of my post kinda indicates the reason to make her thin instead of reasonably heavy. Either Sandrovich was going off women's MMA weight classes, or he was subconsciously motivated by the same ambient BS behind them.
 
Manic Dogma said:
I don't know shit about these people, so I can't comment on the accuracy or lack thereof, but whatever.
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Visually, Erioh is pretty much a dead ringer for Helio, who also inspired Street Fighter's Oro.


In terms of fighting style, not remotely. The Gracies are essentially the first family of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu; they're not the originators, but nobody did more to spread it in the western hemisphere after its creation. Royce Gracie, intentionally picked by the clan as one of their weaker members, famously won three of the first four UFC events and the Gracies have had some sort of presence in combat sports ever since. There's Rickson, who claimed to be 400-0. Roger, who's among the greatest grapplers to ever walk the Earth. Clark, who was in a meme one time.

The dickery is accurate. Raian is named after Ryan Gracie, who died in a jail cell after being "arrested for stealing and crashing a car and attempting to hijack a motorcycle." Renzo, one of their more prolific mixed martial artist, is just a shitfuck on every level.
 
Estro said:
Also, "fun" part about Kaela! We get her height and weight in the chart here:
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I never internalized metric, so those numbers didn't mean much to me. I plugged them into a convertor and, in imperial, she's ninety nine pounds, three ounces. She's supposed to be, almost literally, one hundred pounds soaking wet. That's hilarious.
 
CrimsonOddball said:
I don't think that perspective really holds water on examination

Like sure, physical differences in size and strength matter in a fight

But Cosmo here is 19 years old, stands at 5'6'' and weighs 150 lbs
And he's fighting a guy who's 31, stands at 6'3'' and weighs 251 lbs
Akoya is nearly a foot taller, a hundred pounds heavier and built like he's got tree trunks for arms compared to Cosmo
And Cosmo walked into that match already saddled with the kinds of injuries that would cancel a fight in a "realistic" competition
Oh sure, he's the underdog, the David to Akoya's Goliath
And he gets utterly fucked up achieving that victory
But at no point does the idea of Cosmo fighting Akoya get treated as some kind of unthinkable, ridiculous notion by the peanut gallery

Hanafusa's an inch taller than Cosmo and weighs 137 lbs
And he fought Bando, who's 6'6'' and weighs 324 lbs, nearly two hundred pounds heavier
Now, Hanafusa's a medical freak of nature with bone blades built into his arms
But what about that has anything to do with him being a man, exactly? If Hanafusa were a woman what exactly would have changed about the medical nonsense about turning her femurs into bone blades, surgically altering her hypothalamus to not feel pain, or being able to unsnap her neck and restart her heart on command?

The very first fight in this whole series was Ohma squaring up against a guy so big he was built like a giant upside down triangle on legs
Who would not shut up about how much bigger and stronger he clearly is and how Ohma obviously stands no chance
And then Ohma obliterates him


Kengan likes to actually address weight classes and physical differences when it feels like it, sure
But it's also very eager to show how smaller, less physically powerful fighters can still hold their own and present a threat
Unless they're women, Kengan treats the idea of a woman fighting a man as completely inconceivable
It doesn't mock the idea, it just doesn't seem to ever even think of it as a thing that can happen at all

Karla's as close as it will ever get, where the manga is willing to half heartedly talk about how she's strong (and even there it feels the need to add "for a woman" as a qualifier even though she's explicitly superhuman), but she will never actually fight anyone
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You forgot the twink gaolang obliterated.

I mean yes he got obliterated but he's clearly an argument the manga makes (at the very least last in post content) that even someone ungifted in being a ball of muscles has a shot. Which begs the question why there aren't any from the non dominant gender in this manga, and begs the question how examples like Karla aren't but kaneda is.
 
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