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Capitalism ho! Let's Read Kengan Asura

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GreatWyrmGold said:
It would probably if there were other gay characters in the series who were normal, clarifying that it's Kiryu's obsession that makes him dangerous and not his sexuality...but that's not a change to Kiryu, now is it? That's a change to Cosmo or Sukizo or something.
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We do have the one gay ceo. Still problematic, but for different reasons.
 
As a general principle, including more members of a given minority in your fiction tends to go a pretty decent way toward heading off any one member being actively problematic. This goes for women too, but I repeat myself.

I can't go into it fully without entering spoiler territory, but for my money I'd start by leaning into some of the dialogue in these chapters. Kiryu's active self-loathing, his belief that he is unworthy of love or kindness, and how that translates into a sort of manic worship of the version of Ohma that exists in his head. It'd take a better writer than Sandro to pull it off, but there's potentially a very sad and affecting story there, especially if you can match it with an Ohma who is dealing with his own trauma.
 
This has me thinking.

One possibility in my head is that you could try to show that potential for healthier relationships exists in him, through chill Kiryu. You could have him sincerely being friends and express interest in guys while being more normal, while on the other hand having that inner darkness, plus the self-loathing that Manic Dogma mentions, be something that muddled things for both others and himself. So, have someone who's both threatening, but also has enough moments of something sincerely nice to have readers wonder about him and be ready to sympathise when you get to showing the sympathetically sad side to him, which could be made tragic via the potential for something healthier coming up against the part of him that feels like his horribly unhealthy thing for Ohma is all that he can hope for. There's also a potential to have that tragedy tie narratively to how the appearence of chill Ohma can be linked to something improving in how he connects to and cares about others.
 
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Laplace said:
Nikaido doesn't even use sanda. He uses a stereotypical mystical chinese martial art made for bad 90's ninja movies with a bad understanding of Asian geography. Nikaido could pull out a hadouken and I wouldn't even be surprised.

Also Sandro was on something with Fa Jin and he made Liu Dongcheng's only winning move spamming Fa Jin 24/7 :V
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Hey man, Dongcheng also uhhhh rolls with punches real good? A-and sometimes he kicks too!

Yeah, when you're a striker and your opponent is kinda bad at striking, you don't really have enough resistance to show off why your moves are good. That fight is mainly just him and Nitoku both trying to set the battle on their terms, where they can bully their opponent with their specialty.
 
Dealer said:
Honestly given what happened next I thought the childishness was Kiryu mocking Nikaido, reducing Nikaido to the level of a schoolyard bully instead of a powerful martial artist.

Though at this point I'm honestly curious, what would be the minimum required to 'fix' Kiryu as a character?
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There's a really strong concept at the core of Kiryu. Frankly, I like him already, warts and all. All you really gotta do is give him a little bit more panel-time and get rid of the homophobic jokes elsewhere in the manga. And maybe cut the boner joke. Do that and his attraction to Ohma just becomes another aspect of his tragic and very complicated mindset.
 
Dealer said:
Though at this point I'm honestly curious, what would be the minimum required to 'fix' Kiryu as a character?
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Honestly, just have like eight other queer characters (who are actually queer, not just implied to be subtextually) who the story isn't weird about.

You can have a creepy stalker yandere character in your story and have it not actually come across as a pointed statement about The Way Gay People Are.
 
Manic Dogma said:
As a general principle, including more members of a given minority in your fiction tends to go a pretty decent way toward heading off any one member being actively problematic. This goes for women too, but I repeat myself.

I can't go into it fully without entering spoiler territory, but for my money I'd start by leaning into some of the dialogue in these chapters. Kiryu's active self-loathing, his belief that he is unworthy of love or kindness, and how that translates into a sort of manic worship of the version of Ohma that exists in his head. It'd take a better writer than Sandro to pull it off, but there's potentially a very sad and affecting story there, especially if you can match it with an Ohma who is dealing with his own trauma.
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There's one good moment in their final fight that I feel approached this. It's ruined by the context around it but it's worth examining for how a well written Kiryu who keeps most of his essential elements would look.

Ohma realizes he doesn't hate Kiryu, not really. He's someone from very similar circumstances who he can see a lot of his own struggles in. In that moment he needs to stop him before he hurts someone else but he pities him and wants to help him.

To paraphrase it "The other Niko came along and fucked up your life to huh?"

At his core Kiryu is a terrified kid who wants to die and was used as a disposable weapon to get at Ohma. Once Ohma has really remembered what Niko taught him he stops thinking of Kiryu as his enemy and just sees him as another in the long string of his real foes victims.

It's good characterization for the final form of Chill Ohma and were Kiryu better written.

As for how to rewrite him while keeping him gay... Well it's always going to raise an eyebrow to have a gay serial killer with mental problems as the primary bad guy. Textually have some of the other fighters and CEOs implied to be gay without it being a punchline and it could work though. Remove the sexual attraction treated as alternately a joke or used for creep factor. Instead make him actually in love with Ohma's carnage and the idea he has of his "God".

Have him cheer when he uses the advance, be worried for him when he's not overwhelming his opponents, and disappointed when he's chilling. Build up the spookiness for Setsuna not because he's in love with Ohma but because he's in love with Ohma specifically when Ohma is acting like an inhuman fight beast. Have him get angrier and angrier as Ohma develops away from that part of himself. Use that to build up the drama around Ohma's past and the mystery of Kiryu fits into it and why he wants him to go back there.

Also have him think that Yamashitakazou is the best thing since sliced toast because he's clearly a callous maniac here for blood sport and is pushing Ohma towards that. This has nothing to do with fixing the problematic bits but I think it would be very funny.
 
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SInce this goes into where Kiryu's character ends up going later on, even if only vaguely, I'm putting it into spoilers:
I feel like actively making Kiryu's love for Ohma a redeeming trait - a light in the darkness of Kiryu's life that Ohma might be able to use to save him from himself - rather than something creepy would go a long way towards making Kiryu a better character.
 
Peanut-007 said:
Also have him think that Yamashitakazou is the best thing since sliced toast because he's clearly a callous maniac here for blood sport and is pushing Ohma towards that. This has nothing to do with fixing the problematic bits but I think it would be very funny.
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I like pretty much all of your idea, but I have something to say about this part.

Specifically, that the running gag of people wildly overestimating Yamashita would be even funnier if different characters had different ideas of who the real Yamashita was. Some would still thing that he's a canny, ruthless businessman; others would think he's a manipulative schemer who strongarmed Nogi into giving him his own company; some would pick up on the times he does something that looks physically impressive (like accidentally avoiding an undodgeable attack) and suspect he's a retired Kengan Association fighter; etc. Kiryu thinking that he's a blood sport monster pushing Ohma towards the worst best version of himself would fit into that gag template well.

Never mind the reveal that some or all of his analytical abilities come from inheriting some special thingy from his ancestor that worked for Nogi's ancestor, which suggests that maybe the people assuming Yamashita was more than he appeared are just picking up on his genetic potential or whatever.
People can just have a special talent without needing a unique genetic trait! And they certainly don't need to inherit that trait from a distant cool ancestor or something!


GilliamYaeger said:
SInce this goes into where Kiryu's character ends up going later on, even if only vaguely, I'm putting it into spoilers:
I feel like actively making Kiryu's love for Ohma a redeeming trait - a light in the darkness of Kiryu's life that Ohma might be able to use to save him from himself - rather than something creepy would go a long way towards making Kiryu a better character.
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On one hand, this is true!
On the other hand, changing Kiryu from a character who is evil and violent because of his unhealthy obsession with Ohma to someone who is evil and violent despite his love for Ohma is a pretty big change.

Unless maybe it's something more redemption-arc-ish. Like, KIryu falls in love with the violent, savage Ohma he sees, and rejects chill Ohma once he appears. But the two spend time together, and Kiryu realizes chill Ohma isn't so bad, and that makes him question his own violence.

But that would require Ohma learning more emotional maturity, adding a pretty substantial subplot to the series, and still starting with a predatory gay. Which is still a problem, even if it gets better in chapter 108.
 
If it was Yuri then Ohma would redeem Kiryu by hitting him with a Kamehameha.
 
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News and Christmas Special
  • Informational
    • Good evening creatures and critters, I got a couple of little doodads to discuss.

    First of all, once the first round has been concluded to my satisaction, I'll be taking a brief holiday to rebuild my buffer. I'll put up precise dates closer to the time, since that's still a few months off yet (fuck me this round is so fucking long), which brings me to my next point.

    The 25th of December this year is a Monday. And I want to give y'all something special for it.

    With that in mind, from this post until next monday's update, I want people to present and discuss manga they want to see given the Capitalism Ho treatment. I'll keep track of the names presented, and once I've assembled a shortlist of the ones I'd be willing to cover, I'll set up a poll in this thread until that friday's update. The front runner once the poll ends will be taken aside, and I'll do a full update's worth of that manga's opening chapter or two, which will go up on Christmas day once I have a moment away from my family.

    So, just to be clear on the steps and dates. From now until monday the 13th, suggest manga. From Monday the 13th to 3pm Friday the 17th, I'll run a poll of the candidates. And on Friday the 17th I'll declare the winner. Suggestions don't need to be able to sustain a full series, I'll just be covering one update's worth of material.

    I'm curious to see what I'll get. See you all next time.
     
  • Informational
    • Trapped in a rice cooker!: My otaku sister accidentally runs me over with a lawnmower and puts my remains in a magical rice cooker!
    ....is what I'd like to suggest. Sigh, one day that'll be one a reality.
     
    TIME PARADOX GHOSTWRITER BAYBEEEE. the pinnacle of shonen jump axebait

    or was that one The Hunter's Guild: Red Hood? I forget. there are so many good axebait titles to suggest.
     
    I'd recommend MARRIAGETOXIN for the shared premise of highly trained, eccentric individuals fight at the behest of forces of capitalism. But mainly because I like it.
     
    The Dragon, the Hero, and the Courier would, I think, be fun for a short review. Admittedly you won't get to any of the really interesting arcs, which is a shame, but still.
     
    Kengan Omega :V

    Uh anyway more seriously I second Dragon The Hero the Courier. My second choice is the deliquient tournament arc of Batuque for another tournament arc.
     
    Chainsaw Man Chainsaw Man Chainsaw Man. I am so fucking shocked that manga is not a hundred times more popular on SV. You're just the right person to spread the good word.

    Edit: and yeah, please do continue Kengan into Omega. That manga is very weird. Even when it's bafflingly stupid there's a ton to talk about.
     
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