Capitalism ho! Let's Read Kengan Asura

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Manic Dogma said:
So hey, remember my little aside on the many stupid ways that people who don't know how fighting works think you can easily win every fight? Here's another one for the people who think an automatic copycat process like Chiba was pretending he had is an automatic win. It isn't as scary as it sounds.

It's all in the application, baby.
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I'm actually kinda surprised anyone bit the bait Chiba was dangling.
It should be pretty obvious to anyone who thinks about that he can't replicate the long hair martial arts techniques without years to grow out his hair. Or using techniques that are heavily related to your physique like Sekibayashi or the decathlon guy isn't going to go well for anyone without that sort of physique to back it up.

I guess you just have to attribute it to acting so convincing that everyone's suspension of disbelief was triggered and maybe if the match took longer than 30-40 seconds Sen would have wised up, and noticed that Chiba doesn't have the decision making process to match the martial artists he's copying.
 
I honestly like the next fight, but I think that's just because I love Hajime as this utter terrible gremlin of a doctor.

This one... it's not great at building hype for Hatsumi, IMO, but it's certainly fun as a fight. Well paced, an interesting gimmick for a gimmick fighter, it's all good.
 
The multiple blowouts of first-timers are really making me want a Kengan Rookie's Association with more of the batshit insane One Weird Trick idea guys getting their own tournament arc.

If you've got more than 2 Kengan wins under your belt fuck you.
If you've actually studied martial arts fuck you.
If you're a professional in any of the traditional fighting sports fuck you.
If you're a member of any gangster association or assassin family fuck you.

We clown in this motherfucker.
 
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I appreciate that Chiba's mindgames was portrayed as like, actually effective? During the whole sequence where he shows off how many fighters he's downloaded I was wondering "okay, but why isn't this him fighting instead of just shadow-boxing to show off his moves and revealing all his tricks in the process," but the explanation "that's because he knows he's actually fairly weak and needs his superior opponent to think Chiba is an overwhelming force to put him off his game" actually made sense and was decent strategy, and it was undone not by Hatsumi going "oh, this guy was a jobber all along" but by Chiba himself making a mistake out of arrogance and using Hatsumi's own style, thereby both putting himself on a battlefield where Hatsumi is superior and revealing to Hatsumi that he isn't as hot shit as he looks by using a style Hatsumi has intimate knowledge of and can spot an amateur at.

It's still kinda bullshit that the guy using Gaolang and Okubo's moves during his flexing routine and shows them off as the two Kengan fighter movesets he's mastered and then... Proceeds to not actually use them in the fight in favor of moves by lesser MMA fighters. I guess he couldn't because they hadn't actually fought yet so it would have been 'spoilers' for upcoming fights, but at the same time, showing a copycat using these techniques as set-up for showing their master using them 'properly' and the difference that makes would have been pretty fun... But required giving Chiba at least an extra chapter to breathe and shine.

Ultimately the lesson of this chapter is... "The superior fighter whom everyone knew was superior wins after the inferior fighter's bluff fails." Much surprise, woo.

But all of this, of course, is missing the forest for the trees of why I'm pretty sure Chiba exists in the first place: To allow Sandrovitch to pack in as many gratuitous references to real-life fighters he likes but couldn't justify a direct expy for in the manga in one chapter. "Andrew Filho, the Kidokan Karate Master" is probably referring to Francisco Filho, a Kyokushin Karate MMA fighter, Bruce Lee is obvious, I'm sure there are a couple more I could see if I was more familiar with the milieu.
 
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Two kind of meta notes as fun trivia.

First, this fight in the anime actually lasts the stated time, accounting for slow downs/pauses, which I think is a neat detail:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJODeI-hT-g

Second, there is a brief panel in 99 that shows Chiba's first appearance on the boat, and the art style is such a stark contrast to the current one it was honestly shocking the first time I saw it. Art Evolution is a thing that happens in any long runner, but I don't know if I've ever seen such a drastic change in such a comparatively small time frame.

Lastly, on the chapter itself, here is what I think is the first bit of what appears to be one of either the artist's or author's favorite tricks: playing with perception. Specifically, Chiba's Gaolang and Okubo impressions. It's rendered as essentially shapeshifting to the reader, but obviously in-universe it is simply just that good of an act. It's a trick mixing in and out of universe perceptions that I genuinely applaud. Similar things will come up later, one of them even involving Hatsumi, but this is the one that made me go "wait, what?" way back when I first read it.
 
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Manic Dogma said:
Hatsumi still looks terrified. Reeling from the perfection of the imitation, as Chiba reveals his true nature he is…

An Actor.
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Sekibayashi Jun: "...just an actor? Not even a good actor?"

I believe Wakatsuki when he says Chiba had a shot at winning. But even if he did, Chiba was flying in defiance of something one of the very people he copied said. A thousand kicks once, rather than one kick a thousand times. Chiba's understanding of the techniques he was using was relatively shallow, in large part because of his strategy. He wants to overwhelm frightened opponents using sheer versatility. And it's a strat, sure, but even if Chiba hadn't spoken a single lie in that match then it would have ended the same way. His application was thoughtless.
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Sekibayashi Jun: "You would be a terrible pro wrestler."
 
Manic Dogma said:
Including one very distinct looking black man who's probably a reference to someone or other
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Correct! He's a reference to legendary fight promoter Don King, best known for putting on the Rumble in the Jungle, stomping a man to death before getting acquitted for self defense, and screwing over so many of his fighters (including Mike Tyson) that I'm frankly shocked he never got his skeleton punched clean out of his skin by a pissed-off heavyweight.

Omicron said:
"Andrew Filho, the Kidokan Karate Master" is probably referring to Francisco Filho, a Kyokushin Karate MMA fighter
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Potentially also another Brazilian karateka in Andrews Nakahara, who started his career in Japan's DREAM promotion.

I agree with people's criticism of the fight, but I do also have a soft spot for it. It's very funny to me when someone takes the classic "explain my powers to the enemy" bit and just straight-up fucking lies and I enjoyed how the fight basically boiled down to information management: Chiba dominated early because he preyed on Sen's lack of knowledge about his capabilities but lost because he, in turn, didn't know Sen's capabilities due to never having seen any of his underground fights. Mutual dramatic irony.

A little bummed that Chiba basically vanishes from the series until Omega, where he actually does pretty damn well for himself. You'd think he'd at least stick around for some cameos like the others.

...unless he did and we just never noticed.
 
Manic Dogma said:
It's all in the application, baby.

Have you ever tried to get into a fighting game, hammered out combos in the training room until you can do them in your sleep, then gotten walloped anyway in ranked because you couldn't get the opportunities to actually fire off your TODs? Same basic principle. If you just throw out attacks and techniques willy nilly without thought for your context or the state of the fight then you're going to get folded. And Chiba clearly wasn't completely fucking us around, those techniques he was firing off were serious business, I believe Wakatsuki when he says Chiba had a shot at winning. But even if he did, Chiba was flying in defiance of something one of the very people he copied said. A thousand kicks once, rather than one kick a thousand times. Chiba's understanding of the techniques he was using was relatively shallow, in large part because of his strategy. He wants to overwhelm frightened opponents using sheer versatility. And it's a strat, sure, but even if Chiba hadn't spoken a single lie in that match then it would have ended the same way. His application was thoughtless. He'd still have tried to Aikido Hatsumi. And Chiba's execution was never going to outpace someone who is actually dedicated to the art. So yeah, Chiba had a shot…but that's all it was. It was up to him to land it, and that's a long, long shot.
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This fight is interesting to me when I compare it to the fight between Kuroki and Rihito. The sheer difference in skill of application and how much correct application becomes a theme for Kuroki later on stands out.

Which does lead to the thought of swapping the two fighters - Chiba fights Kuroki, Rihito fights Hatsumi. But too be honest while an interesting idea, I feel like that misses out on the inexperienced fighter vs masterful fighter dynamic Rihito and Kuroki have as well as the specific development Rihito gets in the aftermath. Such a swap would be making Kuroki and Rihito's fight worse to make Hatsumi's better.
 
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Kuja said:
The multiple blowouts of first-timers are really making me want a Kengan Rookie's Association with more of the batshit insane One Weird Trick idea guys getting their own tournament arc.

If you've got more than 2 Kengan wins under your belt fuck you.
If you've actually studied martial arts fuck you.
If you're a professional in any of the traditional fighting sports fuck you.
If you're a member of any gangster association or assassin family fuck you.

We clown in this motherfucker.
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Kengan RU-Sura
 
Voting open
  • Informational
    • As the threadmark says, voting on the subject of the Christmas Special is now open. Cutting the options down to a sane number to poll was hard, I tell you what, but the show has to begin sometime.

    Thanks to everyone who made suggestions, and I'm sorry to those whose suggestions didn't make it through. I hope the result will be fun regardless.
     
  • Informational
    • I voted for my own rec, but I can also recommend the Dragon, the Hero, and the Courier in general. I think it's a really fun little series that doesn't get the love and recognition it deserves. It feels like very much the author's passion project, especially with the bits at the end of each chapter that explain their research into whatever bit of medieval life prompted the chapter.
     
    Dragon! Hero! Courier! It even covers like, four interesting medieval-fantasy things in the first couple chapters, and dropping off there doesn't feel like you're missing much, the early chapters are good at being standalone.
     
    Re-upping my rec for Tenkaichi. It's Kengan but set in the Sengoku period with a cast of all-star warriors from Japanese history.

     
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    DanZapman said:
    I can't stand Tenkaichi's announcer. Sets my teeth more on edge than anything Asura did. Love me Fuma Kotaro though. She's outstanding.
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    look sometimes to get the gigantic lesbian who can punch trees to death you gotta live with the flaming gay stereotype. that's a life lesson we all need to take to heart.

    also oops, didn't see the poll. my bad. recommendation is still open though :V
     
    Okay so I will say that for all application matters and he has some caveats, Chiba's ability here is still pretty fucking bullshit. The simple breadth of technique it would theoretically enable if he trained to work his moves into a cohesive style would make him an absolute monster of a martial artist. He's obviously a kinesthetic genius who can work out the complexities of bodily motion at a master level with just hours. Technical execution isn't everything but it is a lot.

    If he had spent more time working his moves together into a cohesive style I can see him shooting up in the rankings. His big weakness is that he's gone to broad and not really pushed everything together into a cohesive style to call his own. He just needs to spar and spar then spar some more to grind out the decision making ability.

    Chiba doesn't get much love after this but if he were to have shown up after a time skip as a proper monster of a fighter I wouldn't have been surprised. His raw potential is nuts.
     
    Peanut-007 said:
    His big weakness is that he's gone to broad and not really pushed everything together into a cohesive style to call his own.
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    Also he doesn't have superhuman strength. He's straight up lacking in the physique needed for e.g. some of Wakatsuki's nuttier moves. I still agree with your overall point but I think you're overestimating him a little bit.
     
    Sadly, Tenkaichi was a victim of the first pass, as a manga that I've read most of/am actively keeping up with.

    In its own right, it's kind of a super concentrated version of Kengan Asura. A lot of the same strengths and weaknesses, manifested even more intensely across a smaller pagecount.
     
    Kymme said:
    New legendary fighter unlocked: Chiba with unlimited prep time.
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    Which brings up a pretty simple question: If Chiba fought Batman, and both were given the same time to prepare, what ranges of prep time would allow Chiba to win and vise versa?


    Peanut-007 said:
    Okay so I will say that for all application matters and he has some caveats, Chiba's ability here is still pretty fucking bullshit. The simple breadth of technique it would theoretically enable if he trained to work his moves into a cohesive style would make him an absolute monster of a martial artist. He's obviously a kinesthetic genius who can work out the complexities of bodily motion at a master level with just hours. Technical execution isn't everything but it is a lot.
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    I get what you're saying, but I feel like it's missing the point. It's like saying Vegeta wouldn't have lost so many fights if he didn't constantly underestimate his opponents; it's true, but that flaw is kinda fundamental to who he is as a character.

    Theoretically, he could use his kinesthetic talent to become a martial artist the ordinary way. He could have learned boxing or judo or whatever quickly, achieving mastery equal to someone who spent decades honing his art while still in his physical prime. He might even learn the basics of other martial arts to fill in the gaps.

    But that man would not be Chiba. Chiba is not a man who wants to master a martial art. He wants to mimic others, to show off, to play to the crowd and psyche out his opponent and act like a martial artist. He wants to defeat martial artists at their own game, and assumes his talent lets him do so despite his lack of expertise. A Chiba who masters one punch and uses it well is not Chiba.
     
    It's fine, Kengan Asura had already adequately prepared my neck muscles. I Look like I'm smuggling a turkey in the back of my neck.
     
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