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Burning Twice As Bright (ATLA Azula SI)

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iamnuff said:
Like i said, If spirits can do emotions, despite not having bodies, then what-fucking-ever, right?

Fuck it, it's magic.
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If I ever get around to actually writing my Avatar SI idea, my character will drive Sokka absolutely nuts with that line of reasoning. :D

>: < "Just because spirit stuff is weird that doesn't mean there isn't an underlying explanation!"

"Yeah, a magical explanation."
 
FurikoMaru said:
If I ever get around to actually writing my Avatar SI idea, my character will drive Sokka absolutely nuts with that line of reasoning. :D

>: < "Just because spirit stuff is weird that doesn't mean there isn't an underlying explanation!"

"Yeah, a magical explanation."
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If a world that explicitly has magic as a thing, then something happening "by magic" doesn't really mean the same thing as it does in our world.

In our world, it means "without cause or explanation" but in a world with observable magic, then you could preform empirical experiments on (or using) magic.

TLDR: Magic is a science, and contrary to popular belief, you do gotta explain shit.
 
iamnuff said:
If a world that explicitly has magic as a thing, then something happening "by magic" doesn't really mean the same thing as it does in our world.

In our world, it means "without cause or explanation" but in a world with observable magic, then you could preform empirical experiments on (or using) magic.

TLDR: Magic is a science, and contrary to popular belief, you do gotta explain shit.
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Pretty much all of that is flat-out wrong given the slightest inspection of your premises and the fact that you even think it's correct and it passed without comment for a bit shows the conceit of the site. There are an absurd number of works of great literature in which magic occurs and it's provenance and function is completely unknown and it remains unknown.

Add to this that our factual understanding of WHY numerous fundamental forces like gravity function amounts to 'It's magic' in any case, and the premise of people knowing HOW something works and how to use it but not WHY becomes very plausible.

That said, no one in the Avatarverse considers spirits or bending magic, so the expression 'it must be magic' remains a plausible thing for them to say to explain something they don't understand.
 
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In Chinese, 'magic' is 'muoshu', which is directly translated as 'demon arts', or 'evil spirit arts'. Take from that what you will on what magic is in this setting.
 
midnightmissiles said:
Someone needs to put this together into an omake, because I can't just link every couple lines, I might miss something!
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"And people randomly drop to the ground and bow to me. Its wierd"

*Sigh* "Yeah... you get used to it eventually... or you can start burning them, the good zealots should be put into cannon fodder squads though. I would say put them up higher in the chain but zealots always do something screwy right when you most need them not to, you know?"

*Stares Horrified*

"... What? Do you not actually have zealots?"
******​
Iroh: "Well Zuko, when two people love each other very, very much--"
Zuko: "Gah! Uncle, stop!"
Iroh: "--they each go off on their own, their chromosomes duplicate, and their bodies split into two clones of their--"
Zuko: "...what."
Azula: "Ha, I've known that all along, foolish brother."
Itachi: "Stop stealing my lines!"
Ursa: I'm always going to be there for you, even if only as an obstacle for you to overcome. Even if you hate me. That's a mother's role.
Ursa: Also, I implanted my eggs into your father's stomach using my ovipositor.
Zuko: Mom!
Ursa: You have to learn the facts of life sometime, Zuko.
Me: That's not how it actually works! You first have to XXXX your XXXXX and then XXXX! Finally XXX will XX your X, and then XXXXX and then YYY. And that's how kids are born.
Zuko: *Covers ears*
Ursa: ....why do you keep saying letters out loud?​
 
drake_azathoth said:
Pretty much all of that is flat-out wrong given the slightest inspection of your premises and the fact that you even think it's correct and it passed without comment for a bit shows the conceit of the site. There are an absurd number of works of great literature in which magic occurs and it's provenance and function is completely unknown and it remains unknown.

Add to this that our factual understanding of WHY numerous fundamental forces like gravity function amounts to 'It's magic' in any case, and the premise of people knowing HOW something works and how to use it but not WHY becomes very plausible.

That said, no one in the Avatarverse considers spirits or bending magic, so the expression 'it must be magic' remains a plausible thing for them to say to explain something they don't understand.
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His "Premises" are based on historical fact that "Magic" was long considered to operate under consistent rules and explanations. It wasn't until the late nineteenth to twentieth century that "Magic means that shit doesn't have to make sense" meme popped up. Before that though, that meme was not considered the case, and the fact you do not know this says you have no room to be speaking about the "Premises" others are using. -_-
 
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Science is all about "what" and "how" anyway. "Why" is incidental, and usually left to religion to deal with.
 
There's an original Web series called Tales of MU where magic is completely subjective. In the past, people have tried the scientific method. They died horribly because magic doesn't like being analyzed.
 
If magic is nothing more than a fictional form of energy which can be harnessed in a similar fashion to kinetic or thermal energy, then you have to ask yourself what purpose it serves in regards to the narrative. Magic, as a rule, has a degree of symbolic importance to it and reducing it to the level of the internal combustion engine usually involves abstracting it's intended function in the story.

You are, of course, free to treat made up fantasy worlds as credible science-fiction, but I tend to think that's missing the point somewhat.
 
Chargone said:
If it's consistent, you can do science to it. (This conversation's come up before.)
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I suppose that's true. Given that in many settings magic has its own laws and is often exploited for God-like power.

Also, Chargone? Kyubey approves.

If we could just observe [the phenomenon], we'd be able to interfere with it. And if we could interfere with it, we'd be able to control it.
—Kyubey
 
Chargone said:
Science is all about "what" and "how" anyway. "Why" is incidental, and usually left to religion to deal with.
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That's not correct, despite it being an oft-repeated position.
why: (adv) for what reason or purpose; (n) a reason or explanation​
Out of those three things, {reason, explanation, purpose}, science very clearly deals with at least two of them. Science doesn't deal with purpose in the teleological sense (what philosophy call 'final causes'), but different sciences banished final causes at different times—physics fairly early on, biology after the development of evolutionary theory, etc.

In other words, that science doesn't need to consider purpose was itself a discovery about the universe. In some other universe, science could have developed very differently, and even in this one, science deals with all kinds of why questions.

Felix said:
If magic is nothing more than a fictional form of energy which can be harnessed in a similar fashion to kinetic or thermal energy, then you have to ask yourself what purpose it serves in regards to the narrative. Magic, as a rule, has a degree of symbolic importance to it and reducing it to the level of the internal combustion engine usually involves abstracting it's intended function in the story.
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Here it might be noted that this kind of memetic association of energy and science was itself a conceit born of mostly of the technological developments in the nineteenth century, most notably different sorts of engines. It's actually more than a little bit annoying in sci-fi; a lot of authors seem think that merely by slapping some buzzwords around, things are now 'scientific'. Energy fetishism in particular is rather terrible and even crops up in popular science, not just sci-fi.

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Robo Jesus said:
His "Premises" are based on historical fact that "Magic" was long considered to operate under consistent rules and explanations. It wasn't until the late nineteenth to twentieth century that "Magic means that shit doesn't have to make sense" meme popped up.
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This is very true. The principles of sympathy and contagion are examples of magical explanations.
And while reductionism to physical law has sometimes appeared as a philosophical position since times from around Newton, it wasn't a serious scientific position until the late-nineteenth century at the earliest—no earlier than the development of electromagnetic theory, and arguably as late as proof of existence of atoms in the early twentieth. That reductionist attitude is most likely responsible for shifting views on magic.
 
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Actually, if you define magic as a supernatural phenomenon, then by definition it can't be analyzed scientifically. That's what the word supernatural means: something that cannot be quantified and explained by scientific models.

EDIT: That isn't to say that you shouldn't try to analyze "magic" if you encounter it. After all, the only way to find out if an explanation exists or not is to frickin' look for it. Be prepared for the search to exceed you lifespan, though.
 
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Vorpal said:
That's not correct, despite it being an oft-repeated position.
why: (adv) for what reason or purpose; (n) a reason or explanation​
Out of those three things, {reason, explanation, purpose}, science very clearly deals with at least two of them. Science doesn't deal with purpose in the teleological sense (what philosophy call 'final causes'), but different sciences banished final causes at different times—physics fairly early on, biology after the development of evolutionary theory, etc.

In other words, that science doesn't need to consider purpose was itself a discovery about the universe. In some other universe, science could have developed very differently, and even in this one, science deals with all kinds of why questions.


Here it might be noted that this kind of memetic association of energy and science was itself a conceit born of mostly of the technological developments in the nineteenth century, most notably different sorts of engines. It's actually more than a little bit annoying in sci-fi; a lot of authors seem think that merely by slapping some buzzwords around, things are now 'scientific'. Energy fetishism in particular is rather terrible and even crops up in popular science, not just sci-fi.
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Is this a rebuttal what I wrote, or are you merely using it as a point of departure? Because I only used energy as an example; would it have been more appropriate if I had used the more generic term ''force''? I have very little background in physics, so I genuinely want to know why this might be problematic.
 
Felix said:
Is this a rebuttal what I wrote, or are you merely using it as a point of departure? Because I only used energy as an example; would it have been more appropriate if I had used the more generic term ''force''? I have very little background in physics, so I genuinely want to know why this might be problematic.
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Regarding sci-fi vs fantasy, it was an agreement, in that those differences are mostly thematic and symbolic. Regarding science in particular, it was mostly a disagreement (because I also view most sci-fi as having almost nothing to do with science)—specifically, because science is primarily a way of thinking and investigating the world, and only incidentally a collection of facts, or even theories. Most fiction tends to treat it more as the latter rather than the former.
 
Vorpal said:
Regarding sci-fi vs fantasy, it was an agreement, in that those differences are mostly thematic and symbolic. Regarding science in particular, it was mostly a disagreement (because I also view most sci-fi as having almost nothing to do with science)—specifically, because science is primarily a way of thinking and investigating the world, and only incidentally a collection of facts, or even theories. Most fiction tends to treat it more as the latter rather than the former.
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Whereas science-fiction is more about exploring the likely consequences of specific technological or social developments. I actually agree with that, and if I implied otherwise it was through clumsiness on my part.
 
Vorpal said:
Regarding sci-fi vs fantasy, it was an agreement, in that those differences are mostly thematic and symbolic. Regarding science in particular, it was mostly a disagreement (because I also view most sci-fi as having almost nothing to do with science)—specifically, because science is primarily a way of thinking and investigating the world, and only incidentally a collection of facts, or even theories. Most fiction tends to treat it more as the latter rather than the former.
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Ironically enough, despite their inability to distinguish science from engineering and the utterly physics breaking, inconsistent bullshit, mad scientist stories tend do a better job of remembering that science is a way of thinking and not just a database.

Granted, their methodology is shit but at least they keep the mindset of "I don't know what the hell is going on. Imma poke it some more until answers fall out of it."
 
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    • Tootired from work. Can't write more. I'm sorry. I tried. And I fail you.

    16

    Moving over and changing the colors of the ironclad into a merchant vessel does not take as much time as I originally imagined it might. It is a relatively painless affair, filled with pirates being thrown overboard and a lot of sailors grumbling. Still, the ironclad is nearly twice the size of the junk; I even have my own cabin now. The good captain knows he owes me for this, even if we have not ironed out the terms yet…

    Well, it is better that we set the terms at port, where he is reminded of what he might lose if he does not agree. That and few men will disagree with a girl if she has a whole garrison at her call.

    With that said and done, Mai and I settle in and I now turn to a more unpleasant affair of confronting the proof of my failures.

    Our eyes set upon Private Lin again. This is the eleventh time. I am pretty sure she hasn't noticed us taking peeks at her, but does it matter if we are found out. Yes, why does it matter, when I am the Princess?

    "I'm not suffering, my Princess," Private Lin interrupts our thoughts softly with a serene expression on her face.

    "I…" We stutter. It must be because we stared too long, but we can't help but be embarrassed. But it's not embarrassment! It's not. "I'm not worried or anything! Really, I'm just…"

    "If I may speak freely, Princess Azula," Lin murmurs at our expense, interrupting us as we are about to say our thoughts.

    We allow it with a slight nod because a ruler must be gregarious and such.

    "I will bear the scars with pride," She states with a palm pressed against her chest as if to swear upon some unknown spirit. Her gaze falls as her head slowly dips. "It is an honor to protect the future of our nation. I am loyal."

    We turn away, unwilling to meet her eyes. We are not embarrassed or anything like that! It's just our fault that she is suffering. There are no ifs or buts about it; our deficiency is why her once flat and smooth belly is now a hideous mess, and her shoulder is faring no better. Nevertheless, we keep our back straight and our hands behind our back in a dignified pose. "Yes, pride and honor. Loyalty is…"

    The girls shift outside our door. They are listening in on our conversation, but we allow it even if it breaks protocol. We will have fewer and fewer opportunities to shape their impression of us as we continue down this route.

    Mai looks up, her eyes questioning.

    We make a cutting gesture horizontally, telling her not to worry about it. While we practice our heat senses to see our surroundings, Mai is simply more physically gifted and can hear the light shuffling outside.

    "Loyalty shall be rewarded," We intone. Turning back to Private Lin, we add, "I will find a way to heal you, Lin."

    She finally turns her gaze away, as if I have just reminded her of a hidden shame. "It is… I am not priority, Princess. I am not worthy. We have more urgent concerns."

    But she cannot even convince herself in this, and we know better.

    From the way the Fire Nation and people treat Zuko after his scarring, it is safe to say that most of those who are equal in rank will treat it as a shame, not something to be honored. Maybe the common people will buy it; they buy our propaganda well enough.

    But I doubt the aristocracy will care. The Fire Nation is a strange beast. The average income and the median income are closely aligned, thus the standard of living for the average people is high enough that they do not question our rule. Even those in what should be a 'lower class' can tell you that things are better now than they were one hundred—or even fifty—years ago. Only those with too much wealth want to meddle in the affairs of their betters…

    We do not reply to her after that, knowing that we must cultivate our reputation.

    And we do not need to hold our silence for long. This conversation happens only after we have rested and watered ourselves, so as we are mostly in a good shape, we are fast approaching our destination. I will not bore you with details, but this is where Ty Lee should be.

    Yes, it's probably best that I leave it at this.

    We turn away again. It takes conscious effort to control our body to absolute perfection, and similarly so for emotions. Letting our thoughts wander has the effect of letting something through the cracks. We are not embarrassed, damn it!

    Yes, it's probably best Lin doesn't see our face, as red as it is. We can only hope that the blushing goes away as we exit our quarters.

    … This is so embarrassing.​
     
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    • Each time I remind myself that Azula is, what? Ten years old? as I read, I giggle because the image of someone the same age as my bratty little cousin talking and acting like that is just too much to handle XD

    And if she does manage to heal Lin, I can only imagine the sheer number of people both within and outside the Fire Nation who would desire her services which will make her filthy, independently, rich as god. And Zuko, before he comes to accept his scarring as a source of strength (or something because idk much about ATLA or LOK), would offer her anything she wanted in exchange (although daddy Fire Lord would probably not be pleased if she fixed it.
     
    midnightmissiles said:
    The average income and the median income are closely aligned, thus the standard of living for the average people is high enough that they do not question our rule.
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    I await the analysis of each nation's gini coefficient, the strength of the correlation between their gini coefficients and the scale of actual inequality in those nations, inequality trends over time, and the societal risks each nation faces due to their level of inequality. :D

    Edit: Nooooo, @midnightmissiles rated this as Funny. I'm being (slightly) serious here! I want my A:TLA econ fix!

    What if the modernization of the Fire Nation's cottage industries was primarily due to the scaling up of war production and rapid prototyping at the start of the Hundred Year War?
    What if the Dai Li's main job is to combat counterfeiting and quell news of Ba Sing Se's hyper-inflation, to prevent the increasing number of bank runs?
    What if bender-familes are on average significantly more wealthy, and that is the main cause of lingering resentment against benders and their political/mercantile collaborators?
    What if the Air Temples held a monopoly on fast airborne trade, and Fire-Air Nation relations reached a boiling point when the Air Nation refused services until the new smoke-belching factories were closed down?
    What if the sandbenders were formerly a massive civilization but lost everything to desertification when they mismanaged their resources?
    Perhaps nowadays the Fire Nation is in a constant state of war due to its Military-Industrial complex, and not even Ozai fully understands their influence?
     
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