Breaker of Chains (30k Angron Quest)
- Thread starter Maugan Ra
- Start date
- Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Free Tchar
- Location
- AxeLand
[X] Slay Tchar
Ill side with this lorgar over a demon
Ill side with this lorgar over a demon
What's interesting is that Angron has hated the emperor and his empire for a long time. The problem seems to have been that Angron didn't have any real alternative ideas. This could explain in character why Angron has been jumping from 1 short term idea to another. We have a bunch of things we don't like and want to change but no coherent plan or ideology to tie them together. This revelation from Lorgar might provide the solution for that, in that this provides a ready made viable alternative to the current system.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Slay Tchar
- Location
- Third planet from the star named Sol
- Pronouns
- He/They
Loyalty has never really been Angron's thing.
Brotherhood, fraternity, the bonds of kinship and shared suffering. That's his stick.
But Angron's never been loyal. Tchar has never fought with the Chainbreakers. He's never shared in their suffering, their courage, or their peril. He's been an ally, yes, but he's never been a brother or comrade with whom life has been lived alongside. Angron turned on Fulgrim by refusing to prosecute a Compliance as doctrine said it should. He (probably) killed that Custodes guy despite nominally being on the same side.
I believe all these options are perilous and don't particularly outweigh each other on the good/bad scale. But killing Tchar is not uniquely 'betraying a brother' or something like that.
[X] Slay Tchar
Brotherhood, fraternity, the bonds of kinship and shared suffering. That's his stick.
But Angron's never been loyal. Tchar has never fought with the Chainbreakers. He's never shared in their suffering, their courage, or their peril. He's been an ally, yes, but he's never been a brother or comrade with whom life has been lived alongside. Angron turned on Fulgrim by refusing to prosecute a Compliance as doctrine said it should. He (probably) killed that Custodes guy despite nominally being on the same side.
I believe all these options are perilous and don't particularly outweigh each other on the good/bad scale. But killing Tchar is not uniquely 'betraying a brother' or something like that.
[X] Slay Tchar
Last edited:
Also everyone is aware that while tchar may, MAY not be our enemy if we free him, he will certainly be lorgars enemy.
It feels kind of ratty to go to our brother for help, and when he presents us a solution take the option that saves us, but goes against his wishes and leaves him with a dangerous enemy.
It feels kind of ratty to go to our brother for help, and when he presents us a solution take the option that saves us, but goes against his wishes and leaves him with a dangerous enemy.
ContemplateLife
Philosopher Thesaurus
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Slay Tchar
Yeah, also worth questioning - this isn't necessarily about who would throw in with us, but who would be willing to rebel. We could end up getting totally preempted by Chaos, and there's the separate Horus-Malcador squabble ongoing. This could end up breaking really funny in a lot of ways, and we could end up in some verry fun alliances of convenience. Should be interesting.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive
Sod off again : )
This is all a lot of hairsplitting that elides the thrust of my point, frankly.
Yes, the conventions of war are not iron laws of morality - there are no iron laws of morality, we as a species have been arguing over the topic, pushing and pulling this way and that, since we were wearing furs and huddling around firelight in caves. But you're the one who asserts that 'The distinctions of warriors are the lies of cowards', and 'how you kill someone is not a moral distinction', that murder is murder and all forms of killing in war are morally equivalent, and my point is that the existence of codes of war throughout history, the Geneva Conventions, the Peace and Truce of God, the instructions Abu Bakr gave to his army, passages of the Mahabharata, hell, even all the way back to the Code of Hammurabi, puts the lie to that. They demonstrate that it is, as I said at the start, a steaming pile of edgy horsecrap.
As long as we as a species have been making laws, we have been making laws trying to restrain the practice of warmaking, out of at least in part a moral urge to curb its worst excesses and restrain its horrors. If they contradict with each other and our own modern ideas of ethical behaviour, what of it? We've been arguing over morality throughout our entire history, and we're still trying because it matters.
Again, Lorgar is inventing a god because the world should be better than what it is. Now is exactly the time to cling to principles and fine ideals. Angron is a killer, but he's not a murderer, and gods of 'truth and light and boundless love' are not made by murdering a defeated prisoner (a former ally, however uneasily) bound in chains at your feet.
Last edited:
prometheus110
Join Cayman-Global & be part of the 1E-9 percent!
- Location
- La Ballena City Raft
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Slay Tchar
here we go killing again.
here we go killing again.
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
- Pronouns
- She/They
[x] Slay Tchar
i want to see what happens
But I'm not making an argument against the idea of war crimes?
I'm making an argument against absurd rules invented by delusional mass murderers who want to imagine that what they do is somehow special or different. The executioner kills a man in chains, the soldier fires an artillery shell into a town. The soldier sneers at the executioner for killing a guilty man even as he butchers the innocent. But that's "war", so it's okay.
The Warhammer universe is lacking in any proper laws of war. I propose that any future laws should be written by people who don't think that going through a daycare with chainswords is awesome and based, actually, just so long as those tiny tiny children are Nucerians.
Angron is a murderer. He murdered nine billion people. Could you please acknowledge that fact? Could you discuss the small detail that Angron committed genocide? I seriously don't understand the endless whitewashing, because executing the Final Solution seems like the kind of thing that people should remember.
If you execute the Final Solution on a planet, you are a murderer. Full stop.
So now that we've established that Angron is absolutely a murderer on a scale that makes Hitler and Stalin look like small-timers, we can move on to the idea of our happy new god. I think Lorgar's idea is promising. It's dangerous, of course, but it has potential.
If we want to make a god of "truth and light and boundless love", we're not going to make it with Angron, a genocidal monster who still has happy memories of the time his "little brothers" made a giant pile of toddler skulls. While we're discussing all these "principles and fine ideals", maybe we should start with the principle that the Final Solution is a Bad Thing?
Restalaan
What do you mean i am not a real cowboy?
Well, if Alpharius joins us, that would mean we have nearly all the legions that specialize in subterfuge and stealth all on our side.
(Granted, that might be lessened since Emps still have newly minted Inquisition and Malcador on their side)
So it will be fun times for the Angron alliance side. With a balance of a unbreakable frontline, melee specialist, and total masters of infiltration forces.
- Location
- Dreiländereck
This might not be directly related to the vote, but I had some thoughts to the content of this update and the future with the Lorgar Instrumentality Project.
First of all, we haven't heard or seen anything of Kor Phaeron or Erebus. Four times we met Lorgar in this quest and neither of them, the captain of the first company and the first chaplain, were there. By now I think they didn't survive Lorgar's pilgrimage or are otherwise indisposed.
Secondly, assuming we join Lorgar's project and use this as an impetus to create a third faction between Chaos and Emperor, where will the different primarchs and notables fall. Though my grasp of some of the primarchs is a bit shaky I think it may look something like this.
First of all, we haven't heard or seen anything of Kor Phaeron or Erebus. Four times we met Lorgar in this quest and neither of them, the captain of the first company and the first chaplain, were there. By now I think they didn't survive Lorgar's pilgrimage or are otherwise indisposed.
Secondly, assuming we join Lorgar's project and use this as an impetus to create a third faction between Chaos and Emperor, where will the different primarchs and notables fall. Though my grasp of some of the primarchs is a bit shaky I think it may look something like this.
Prophet of the Human God Project.
Assuming we go all in, most likely Lorgar's first convert outside his legion and with him the Conqueror and the Chainbreakers in his immediate vicinity. The Chainbreakers in total are split and dispersed at the moment. When things get hot, some will come back to us out of personal loyalty no matter the creed, some will fight us as traitors and some will be too far away to be of any direct use. The legion and the expeditionary fleet must be reestablished and put back under Angron's command for that to be changed.
In principle I think he and his legion are susceptible to Lorgar and his message, especially if Angron is there too. Magnus' faith in his father has badly shaken by Nikea, but it is not broken. Depending on the changes through Angron and Alpharius it should be possible to get him on our side.
I think he would come to our side, not because he particularly cares for cosmic truths but because we are his brother and he was willing to throw down the gauntlet with Malcador and Dorn right then and there over Thramas. That the vision offered by Lorgar is on the surface more appealing than a golden tyrant or tentacles from beyond space-time is most likely a nice bonus.
I think we can get Vulkan on similiar principles as Corvus and maybe some Salamanders will come fight side by side with their gene-father and champion. But to get the Salamander legion on our side we need to offer them something different and I have no idea what they would want
Would be an invaluable ally to have in our corner, he harbors doubts and secessionist tendencies as we have seen and regards Angron as a close friend. Even if he would not care about the particulars of the Word Bearer faith, I think he can be enticed with either the chance of rebuilding a galactic human polity from the ground up without the emperor's idiocrasy, or at least a chance to get Ultramar independent. The biggest hurdle would be his personal relationship with Lorgar. Not neccessarily from Guillaume's side but that Lorgar would not accept his help or even in the worst case go out of his way to fuck with him.
As above Horus in his personal might and in his position as warmaster would be an invaluable ally. The good, Horus is not a true believer in the imperial project, he does what he does out of filial piety and personal ambition. The bad, Angron's relationship with him is a fraught one at the moment, Horus feels betrayed, is hurt and does not really care for higher ideals like Lorgar does. On the other hand the close proximity of Angron, for an extended period of time, to Horus could work as an attack vector if you will. But only for as long as Angron manages to reearn his trust, while at the same time his personal loyalty to the emperor is broken. Something like that should be engineerable by a sufficiently crafty person. Another complication would be the rivalry between Corvus and Horus, similair to Lorgar and Guillaume. Depending on the situation I can see Horus do all sorts of things supporting the Emperor to the bitter end as his father, falling to Chaos if the offer is good enough, joining Lorgar if that is where his friends are or even going independent and in case he can't trust anybody. In that sense Horus Lupercal is a real wildcard.
Another wildcard, the question here is who offers the most protection for Baal. We would have a better chance here I think, because neither Angron nor Lorgar would paricularly care about genetic impurity and deviation among the systems inhabitants and they would not press the purge button upon learning of the red thirst. Chaos on the other hand would be the option that offers Sanguinius and his marines to indulge their worst instincts, but that is something the Angel actively tries to move away from.
A true believer in the imperial cause and at the same time walking, talking Slaanesh bait. Will be difficult to entice him to Lorgar's cause and I have no idea how. Maybe something like the creation of the pinnacle of human ingenuity and spirit.
Would be a good ally in terms of ressources and manpower. Is also a miserable, spiteful prick that actively slaps away the hands of everybody who tries to reach out to him. By this point I think Perturabo would simply choose the side that would allow him to fuck over Dorn the most. It might be possible to entice him to join us if we get Magnus on side.
When we go against the Imperium we will need to fight against Dorn and the Lion for the same reason, they are true believers in the imperial cause and most of all the Emperor on Terra. Though if a sufficiently good orator could sell Luther on the benefits of secession, than we could at least splinter a part of the Dark Angels.
Will most definetly choose the side that will allow him to preen at his brothers when they are forced to concede what a genius he is. In that sense he is a wildcard of no loyalty to anybody but himself and his own brand of aggrandizement.
I think the Khan would look at a galactic civil war and not really care. Especially if there are more than two factions, most likely he will try to stay out of it until somebody forces his hand by attacking his domain. Though Jaghatai might be more inclined to the imperial or Lorgar's side.
I have no idea.
Most likely imperial, definetly not Lorgar. Especially not if we get Magnus to join too. Maybe Chaos if somebody leaks the mutation problems of the Space Wolves and the imperial authorities get purge happy
I think Mortarion is a lock in for Chaos. He hates the Emperor, he hates us and he hates Magnus, psykers and maybe Lorgar? I don't know if he will fall to Nurgle but I am pretty he will fall to one of the four.
Most definitely on the imperial side due to personal loyalty to the Emperor. If this becomes a civil war with three or more sides, than I guess it might be possible that we can arrange local detentes and limited agreements if in a particular region of space a bigger problem appears. He seems pragmatic like that. Now if the choice were us or Chaos, than I guess he would choose us.
The Forgeworlds are not really united. There are true believers that the Emperor is the Omnissiah, proto-Dark-Mechanicus schismatics like Ulan Huda, orthodox sects from before unification and sects like our friends from Sarum who idolize Angron as as living breathing Angel of War. In other words when the civil war kicks off the Mechanicus as an institution too will shatter in a thousand pieces. Perhaps it might be possible to direct some of Word Bearer and Chainbreaker chaplains to builds a syncretized ideology out of the worship of the Omnissiah and the Golden God of Lorgar.
Most alien empires will stay out of this and be happy that the genocidal madmen are killing each other. Our protectorates would most likely join us, because what else are they gonna do? Get purged when the other guys win? Commoragh and eldar corasairs will definetly step up their raiding activity and the craftworld eldar will try to inhibit an outright Chaos win. Which side they will help will most likely depend on the situation.
Last edited:
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
"I'm not making an argument against the idea of war crimes," you say, before essentially dismissing the idea of war crimes. No, it's not 'okay' because it's war, but it is different, and throughout history we have pretty consistently treated it differently.
I understand that cynics like to call themselves realists, my thude, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are required to take them at their word.
Evidently I can, because I already did. It's a thing he did one time, in the exceptional circumstances of having been subject to the cruelty of the Nucerian elite for his whole life until he was suddenly handed a Legion of Astartes. Yes, in a story about galactic war, it is only one planet. It's a stain on him, but you seem to think it's one that should define the sum of him for his whole life. I do not. Nuceria was centuries ago, and Angron has spent those centuries pointedly not repeating it, prosecuting wars with more of an attempt at mercy and justice than just about anybody else in the Great Crusade. I have been largely ignoring your obsession with re-treading this ground because I bluntly do not think it is substantive or meaningful.
Last edited:
- Location
- Austria
I agree that this act will likely affect how will the hypothetical God be.
Which is exactly why we should do it. Tchar is a malicious lying presence - a literal demon. That we got him, for once, cornered, does not make him any similar to a human prisoner.
A faith would only benefit from killing lying, malicious tempter figures who seek to abuse and manipulate all being its founding mythos.
It's not like Angron is killing everyone all the time either, if there is a question of his character. He kills Tchar here because Tchar is the traitor demon, he is ok with not killing people and talking to them and shit.
God made on such a foundation would of course be necessarily warlike, but it is 30K and it is Angron, so that was never under question. Killing evil (and Tchar is as close go personification of it as we can get) to protect your brothers is pretty neat.
[X] Slay Tchar
Which is exactly why we should do it. Tchar is a malicious lying presence - a literal demon. That we got him, for once, cornered, does not make him any similar to a human prisoner.
A faith would only benefit from killing lying, malicious tempter figures who seek to abuse and manipulate all being its founding mythos.
It's not like Angron is killing everyone all the time either, if there is a question of his character. He kills Tchar here because Tchar is the traitor demon, he is ok with not killing people and talking to them and shit.
God made on such a foundation would of course be necessarily warlike, but it is 30K and it is Angron, so that was never under question. Killing evil (and Tchar is as close go personification of it as we can get) to protect your brothers is pretty neat.
[X] Slay Tchar
- Location
- a place
On the other hand, I'm not super sure gods of 'truth and light and boundless love' are made by letting a creature that just got done manipulating a man in his weakest moments into a faustian bargain that would have caused him too mass murder innocents just too incite further kinslaying get off scot free so they victimize countless more people, simply because they were personally useful to us and promised not to hurt anyone we actually care about. Actually, putting it like that, it sounds less like a murder and more like a execution of a remorseless machiavellian schemer that has ruined innumerable lives over it's long existence, who we have no real hope of reforming and dubious ability to restrain in any fashion beyond slavery, and has every intention to continue doing so if we simply take their bribe of absolving our subordinate.
And while I understand that it's just one daemon, and that maybe in some grand scheme, it doesn't really matter whether we let T'char go on the scale of galactic suffering, but I know it would matter to T'Char's future victims and their loved ones and it's hard for me too conclude God of Boundless Love wouldn't value their lives atleast as much as T'Chars. And if I were to pick what kind I'd view as more compassionate, I'd take the one that prioritized mercy to a unrepetant monster less then the victims that they'd continue to leave in their wake.
Last edited:
- Location
- Austria
Angron's track record of relative mercy is part of the reason I think it is fine and good to kill Tchar.
We are not killing a helpless victim, in fact we have enough of _not_ doing that for it to probably matter.
We are killing a malicious tempter who abused despaired and ignorance and love for Angron of our little brother in order to squeeze out a contract for we don't even know what, and it dares call that "freely entered contract".
If it is freed, it will haunt not only Angron, but also, and it is worse, Lorgar. We are _not_ backstabbing our brother, who revealed his deepest secrets and trusted us with sword of his future faith, his heart's work, for the sake of the malice incarnate, even if said malicious incarnate is momentarily weakened.
God of truth and love in universe as cruel and malicious as Warhammer must be also God of strength and defeating evil, due to sheer necessity. Otherwise all that truth and love will just die.
If lie and hatred are sapient and hunt you down with knives out, truth and love must have a sword and will to use it.
Last edited:
HalfTangible
Only half sane (it's less cringe)
- Location
- Valkyrie, Primus
This. And that's without even considering his nature as a piece of Tzeentch.
The notion that we're executing a "helpless prisoner" baffles me because it implies innocence on Tchar's part that he simply does not have.
- Location
- Austria
I suppose it's less about innocence and more helplessness and, like, lack of trial and shit.
But he is sufficiently malicious any trial would result in execution anyway, and Angron is not Roboute enough to bother with such theatrics when outcome is known.