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Breaker of Chains (30k Angron Quest)

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FractiousDay said:
Given the sort of warfare this would involve, what do the Chainbreakers bring to the table? Their specialities are in assault, and the Raven Guard already have stealth stuff down. I could have imagined maybe Magnus for his wizards, but not necessarily just an assault formation.
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Chainbreakers are the muscles to Raven guard tracking basically. They'll also most likely be focused in cutting off escape routes of Conrad's legion while we don't have to worry about pursuit and just tear their throats out.
 
I do think that we should make killing Konrad a political statement and make it loud and clear that we'd not have done so, if the Imperium actually had laws that weren't a facade to allow the Council of Terra to take what they want and kill who they want.

"Until you get all the Primarchs in line and make us killing whoever we want allowed, I am going to do it again."

Force the Imperium to establish fair and equitable laws by breaking the previous ones.
 
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Dekutulla said:
The Emperor saw fit to let this fester and rot, as Corax says - is there anything about Malcador that indicates he thinks the Emperor is wrong in doing so?
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I mean, yes? He's a big believer in the Crusade as a cause, something Konrad makes a mess of - and that's just it, Konrad is messy, and Malcador is the kind of guy who abhores mess. He's a pragmatist at heart. For much the same reason that he doesn't hold grudges against the Primarchs, he likewise isn't the Emperor's yes-man who shares his mind in every particular. He simply prefers not to rock the boat because it would cause setbacks for The Cause. Well, Konrad is already stabbing holes in the boat, so that's no longer an obstacle.

That said, you have convinced me to support Alpharius, and I've always kinda liked the guy, so I'll amend my vote in one particular,

[X] Yes
- [X] Approach the Sigillite
- [X] Approach Alpharius
 
Malcador could absolutely use this to score points against us by tattling to big E. Fuck that, and I'd rather not stab horus in the back.

Furthermore, Alpharius would go apeshit if he missed this lol

[X] Yes. Frame it as a capture/neutralize operation that "may have to" resort to field execution.
-[X]Do NOT approach the Sigillite.
[x]Approach Horus.
-[x]Approach Alpharius
 
Why are we so eager to work with Malcador after he psychically attacked Angron for raising his voice at the council?
 
Mayto said:
Why are we so eager to work with Malcador after he psychically attacked Angron for raising his voice at the council?
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a) He'd be really good at pulling this off.
b) While he almost certainly can screw us on this, the smart money says he won't, because he has everything to gain from a good-faith effort in exactly the ways he needs after his recent defeat, and he's ultimately a hardcore pragmatist who doesn't hold grudges.
c) The prospect of Old Man Genocide going full-tilt apeshit on someone just seems like a really fun read.
 
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We know that Angron has been getting commands (which we ignored) from the Council of Terra to exterminate abhuman populations he conquered. Do you think those get sent without Malcador's approval? He does nothing without the Emperor wanting it.

Malcador literally assaulted us for daring to speak against him
 
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Mayto said:
We know that Angron has been getting commands (which we ignored) from the Council of Terra to exterminate abhuman populations he conquered. Do you think those get sent without Malcador's approval? He does nothing without the Emperor wanting it.

Malcador literally assaulted us for daring to speak against him
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That is that, and this is this. We don't have to like the guy to work with him.
 
YOLF said:
Extra thoughts: I don't think Angron would necessarily be more inclined to try to ask Malcador for help than he would Alpharius, and there's been solid reasoning given for why the Sigilite would be helpful, but it's also compelling because it's such an unexpected option. Leaning on the new complicity with Alpharius and getting his expertise on shady action is probably just as well (with different complications).
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True, but let's be honest, it's Cruze, and if we can get Mal on board, that means we get the one Legion who has a reputation of doing this in the past working with us.

Plus, least we can do is tell him.
 
[X] Yes. Frame it as a capture/neutralize operation that "may have to" resort to field execution.
-[X]Do NOT approach the Sigillite.
[x]Approach Horus.
-[x]Approach Alpharius
 
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Primarch Relationships
  • Informational
    • And since I just realised I never got around to actually writing this up properly, this is a reference for how the relations between Angron and his brother Primarchs currently stand.

    Friends and Allies

    • Horus Lupercal
      • Horus decked Angron in the face on their first meeting, and they promptly became fast friends. Angron respects his brother for his skill and accomplishments, but more than that he just plain likes the man. Horus is easy to get along with, and though they bicker and compete like brothers, Angron would follow the Warmaster into hell without a second's hesitation. Horus in turn genuinely likes Angron, taking pleasure in the easy camaraderie of a fellow warrior spirit (who, if one is being cynical, has no aspirations to ever challenge him for command).
    • Magnus
      • Angron has never been much of a scholar, but as one of society's outcasts he has a reflexive disdain for hidebound dogmatism and the growing imperial obsession with purity, and it is these traits that he shares with the Cyclops of Prospero. They became friends slowly, one shared decision or spirited disagreement at a time. Ironically, Angron's lack of scholarship actually helps - he has zero objection to the idea that Magnus knows more than him, which removes a lot of the friction and resentment that characterises his brother's other relationships.
    • Lorgar
      • Angron expected to hate the preacher, and certainly their early relationship was a fraught one. As the tide of public sentiment turned ever further against Lorgar, however, Angron found his sympathies growing, and Lorgar played on those to build bonds of friendship between them, a sentiment eased by their shared disregard for the Imperial Truth and the successes of their joint Chaplain Project. Monarchia solidified the bond, an offer of brotherhood and support given without question or hesitation in Lorgar's darkest moment, and he will never forget that.
    • Vulkan
      • There's nothing complicated about this one - Angron and Vulkan are friends, drinking buddies and friendly rivals, both willing to just forget all higher responsibility for a day or three and go hunting magma drakes or something.
    • Corvus Corax
      • A shared past as rebels and liberators, a mutual disdain for all who would see their fellow man in chains, and a shared secret in the purging of the worst of the Dust Clad - Corax and Angron have much in common, and surprisingly few differences.
    • Roboute Guilliman
      • A quirk of stellar geography, Nuceria's proximity to Ultramar, saw many of Angron's earlier campaigns being fought alongside the Thirteenth, and Kharn did the rest. By the time the brothers met in person, their subordinates had already established a solid working relationship and given each Primarch reason to look past their reflexive disdain for the other.

    Enemies and Rivals

    • Mortarion
      • Mortarion looks at Angron and sees the same effortless charisma and unapologetic warlord that took his people and rendered his accomplishments meaningless. Angron in turn hates Mortarion for his brutal tactics and callous disregard for collateral damage or innocent life. Perhaps this could have been averted, once, but by now there is simply too much bad blood and spite between the two Primarchs for any reconciliation. Even Horus mostly sticks to keeping them separated.
    • Leman Russ
      • Russ was Angron's friend, once. Two warriors possessed of rough charisma and an aggressive approach to war, they bonded on a dozen battlefields. Yet as the Crusade wore on, their differences slowly prised them apart; Russ came to disdain his brother's lack of fealty and sympathy for their enemies, while Angron grew frustrated with his brother's slavish devotion to a man unworthy of his loyalty. Their friendship has curdled into hatred, and now both look forward to the day when they can settle their grudge with blood.
    • Lion El'Johnson
      • The Lion does not doubt or second-guess. He looks at Angron and sees a monster - a blood-soaked marauder without honour or loyalty, who befriends foes and threatens the great work through sedition and a disdain for orthodoxy. What does a Knight do, when confronted with a monster? He slays it. Angron for his part is only too happy to return the hostility.

    The Rest

    • Fulgrim
      • It's Complicated. Fulgrim and Angron respect each other, in isolation and at a distance, but in person each cannot seem to stand the other. Their personalities grind against each other like rusted gears, and neither is interested in the compromises necessary to smooth the relationship out.
    • Dorn
      • Angron's brand of fierce personal charisma simply does not work on Dorn, and at this point neither of them can really be bothered to do more than exchange nods when they pass in the hallway. They are simply too different for a real bond to form, positive or negative.
    • Ferrus Manus
      • On paper the two should be friends, but somehow it just never works out. They work well enough together on shared projects, and then part ways with no particular desire to repeat the experience.
    • Jaghatai Khan
      • A poor first impression can sour a relationship for years, and so it was with Angron and Jaghatai. They're not picking fights with each other by this point, but neither are they ever likely to be friends.
    • Perturabo
      • Angron tried, he really did. He reached out to his brother, wanting to discuss sculpture or warfare, and Perturabo spat bile and retreated behind his walls. Without any particular motivation to press on, Angron shrugged and left the man there to stew.
    • Sanguinius
      • Though they have perhaps worked past the issue of secrets and made the first steps towards rebuilding bridges, Sanguinius and Angron are still distant in their way. It will take more work to successfully forge a bond, even in the absence of that original obstacle.
    • Konrad Curze
      • Angron fully intends to kill the man. Curze barely thinks about Angron at all.
    • Alpharius
      • What few shared experiences that Alpharius has with Angron mostly consist of Angron needling his younger brother for amusement and Alpharius biting back or recording a grudge for later. Their relationship is too young to really settle down into friends or enemies just yet.
     
  • Informational
    • Curze... I kind of imagine he will have just enough insight to stage a trap. Draw in a brother that want our head as well as his and see which necks meet blades first. His own survival is secondary to seeing the finest conflagration he can set.

    With our friends? It would be a dire betrayal indeed that would see us wanting their deaths even should they fall. We might not fall but... if Lorgar did we'd see it as a tragedy. Why one should be careful when one listens to strange birds. We'll rage against all of creation but not to him or to Horus.

    Part of me thinks the Heresy, or at least the Chaos-component of a broader Heresy, will come from another source. An unexpected one.
     
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    Dark as Silver said:
    :wtf:
    I guess the Dammaz Kron is also 40k canon?
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    Nah, that's just what Alpharius is like. He has a prickly ego that bristles easily at any implication that someone else is better than him, intentional or otherwise. Guilliman mildly talked down to him one time, and Alpharius' response was to throw all practicality out the window to orchestrate an absurdly over-the-top hundred gambit pileup, just to prove he could, that he was good enough to pull it off.

    Alpharius is a genuinely brilliant schemer and tactician, but when it comes to personally relating to his brothers he has no chill, nor any self-control beyond the bare minimum to not haul off and deck someone then and there. Horus alone gets a pass, because they've built up enough of a personal rapport that their rivalry is an above-board, friendly thing that allows for some trash-talk and ribbing (and also Horus is the Warmaster, the universally-agreed first among equals, so Alpharius can console himself that it's okay if he's only second best, For Now), but with anybody else Alpharius is permanently one bout of mild sassing away from practically flipping out and shrieking, "YOU WANNA GO, SCRUB? YOU AND ME, RIGHT NOW!!!"

    He's the School Shooter Primarch, basically. He spent decades stewing over what he percieves as his status as the runt of the litter, with the fewest battle honours and the least respect, and then he turned up to the canon Heresy with piles and piles of gear that spoke of years or decades of preparation to kill other Astartes.

    "What do you have there, brother?"
    "Armour-piercing anti-Astartes ammunition."
    "Uh, whyyyy do you-"
    "Fuck you, that's why. Here is an itemised list of times you have slighted me over the last century."
    "alpharius you could have talked to us about any of these. all of these"
    "I AM SORRY BROTHER GUILLIMAN, I CANNOT HEAR YOU OVER OPENING FIRE!"
     
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    DocMatoi said:
    Malcador
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    Gods, that would be astounding. A black and rotting heart of the Imperium, cancerous tendrils having spread to the loyal first and leaving the disloyal to raise arms for an empire we can not bear. That would be a hell of a twist.

    I don't think Chaos could pull it off but all four deities are masturbating as hard as they can to the idea.
     
    [X] Yes
    - [X] Suggest tactics and allies (Vulkan) Your brother has always been the most humane, that much is obvious to anyone whose met him, given the loyalty between us and no love lost over the Eighths tactics it would be an easy thing to convince the Dragon to face the Night haunter. Upon gathering the three legions suggest a form of bait to bring the most of the Nightlords to bear in one system, then use the combined might of your legions and brothers to bring down Konrads bastard sons and haul their father before the gates of terra for judgement.
     
    Modus_Tollens said:
    Gods, that would be astounding. A black and rotting heart of the Imperium, cancerous tendrils having spread to the loyal first and leaving the disloyal to raise arms for an empire we can not bear. That would be a hell of a twist.

    I don't think Chaos could pull it off but all four deities are masturbating as hard as they can to the idea.
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    He just had his pride in being the emperor's most loyal shattered, in being chastised just as hard as the other Arrogant Sons at the council
    He has also been informed of the existence of spirits
    a path exists that connects these dots and forms the Malcadrene Heresy

    [X] Yes
    - [X] Suggest tactics and allies (Vulkan) Your brother has always been the most humane, that much is obvious to anyone whose met him, given the loyalty between us and no love lost over the Eighths tactics it would be an easy thing to convince the Dragon to face the Night haunter. Upon gathering the three legions suggest a form of bait to bring the most of the Nightlords to bear in one system, then use the combined might of your legions and brothers to bring down Konrads bastard sons and haul their father before the gates of terra for judgement.
     
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    Mayto said:
    Why are we so eager to work with Malcador after he psychically attacked Angron for raising his voice at the council?
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    A few reasons. I'll open with the serious ones.

    1. Angron is not really a man to hold a grudge over something like that. Given that he once threatened Fulgrim into compliance by saying he'd kill a thousand of his sons and defile their corpses, it'd be a bit rich if he did. That, at least, is a trait he shares with Malcador.
    2. The political benefits serve Angron's aims well. He advocated for rule of law at Nikaea, for the rights of the common psyker and the rights and institutional legitimacy of the Imperium institutions. That Horus can shield the Night Lords from consequences for their crimes in the name of his own position will not sit well with him, and Corax never did get the opportunity to avenge his sons for Horus's mishandling of them. Perhaps with this grief given to the Warmaster, Corax might see them as somewhat more even.

    Then again, maybe not.
    3. It would work. More than any of the other options mentioned, Malcador is effective. He'll have had contingencies for the Night Lords for centuries and his own personal psychic might is second only to the Emperor and perhaps Magnus — and his knowledge far surpasses the latter. If Malcador buys in — and I've laid out earlier why I think he would — Curze and the Night Lords are dead, you just haven't deigned to inform them yet.
    4. This one is a bit of OoC reasoning: Malcador, for the first time in millennia... is not the Emperor's unquestioned right hand and most trusted. That's an opportunity. As I mentioned earlier, perhaps Mortarion is not the only person who looks at Angron and sees the Emperor. At the very least, the old monster will be greatly amused by the gall.
    5. This one is purely OoC — Malcador is perhaps the most interesting non-Primarch character in all of 30k (and more interesting than most of them, tbqh), and we get vanishingly little on him in canon beyond an audiobook that is, to be frank, not very good.


    The fun reasons:
    1. Dad said no, time to ask Other Dad.
    2. Oldest Man Genocide's magical kung fu has gotta be super sick in a fight scene.
    3. Malcador spending a solid two minutes doing the evil old man cackle after Angron asks him will be great.
     
    [X] Yes
    - [X] Suggest tactics and allies (Vulkan) Your brother has always been the most humane, that much is obvious to anyone whose met him, given the loyalty between us and no love lost over the Eighths tactics it would be an easy thing to convince the Dragon to face the Night haunter. Upon gathering the three legions suggest a form of bait to bring the most of the Nightlords to bear in one system, then use the combined might of your legions and brothers to bring down Konrads bastard sons and haul their father before the gates of terra for judgement.

    I have been busy but I am going to vote for Vulkan, because Vulkan is liked by everyone and the more primarchs we get aboard the better it will be for when we have the trial that starts the civil war.
     
    Nurgle said:
    [X] Yes
    - [X] Suggest tactics and allies (Vulkan) Your brother has always been the most humane, that much is obvious to anyone whose met him, given the loyalty between us and no love lost over the Eighths tactics it would be an easy thing to convince the Dragon to face the Night haunter. Upon gathering the three legions suggest a form of bait to bring the most of the Nightlords to bear in one system, then use the combined might of your legions and brothers to bring down Konrads bastard sons and haul their father before the gates of terra for judgement.

    I have been busy but I am going to vote for Vulkan, because Vulkan is liked by everyone and the more primarchs we get aboard the better it will be for when we have the trial that starts the civil war.
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    Okay but, it's been said before - how are you going to convince the Salamanders to go along with this? Not Vulkan, the Salamanders. We had a whole scene about how hands off Vulkan is, so that the one doesn't necessarily follow the other.
     
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