Dimensionist
Grandmaster of Apologism, Keeper of the Faith
- Location
- Bangalore, India
So we're doing this in this thread, and you're blaming me for it, when I told you to take it to PMs? Okay.
He did it to save Naruto and Sasuke's lives. Mentioning Rin was both a joke as well as a cliche soldier line - 'I'm going back to her before you', 'Don't come back too quickly and mess it up for us, you hear' that kind of thing. This isn't rocket science.
I'd consider sacrificing one's life to save the lives of those who can save the world fairly heroic, yes.
The fact that you think the joke is supposed to be the real reason really makes me facepalm.
It was, and you took the joke too seriously.
Yes, this whole convoluted plan, decades in the making, was so he could die! Genius!
So, we're trivializing everything that happened to him again, pretending people aren't what they are, but are actually divided into 'good' and 'bad' and not what their circumstances and environment makes them into? And we're also ignoring the fact that Obito was always Madara's patsy, and if he hadn't been there, Madara would have just used someone else?
Did we miss how he said no in the beginning? That it was Madara's actions - his brainwashing, his machinations, and everything else, that slowly warped Obito over to who he was?
'Thing I do not like because it doesn't support my hate' is not a retcon.
Actually, that was a good bit of storytelling, and worked with the first bit of philosophy we were imparted (underneath the underneath), explained the tablet, explained how Madara knew about Infinite Tsukyomi in the first place, and tons of things besides.
Once again - 'I do not like this because it doesn't support my headcanon and hate' is not a retcon.
Try hundreds of times over. Since, you know, if he hadn't been there, Naruto and Sasuke would have died, and the world would have ended.
Which is the qualification for a heroic death.
So their actions were perfectly justified by the story, but you're bitching that it happened ... why again?
As always, your inability to distinguish jokes from motivations and parse villain motivations and actions makes me facepalm.
And ...? Danzo wasn't lying when he said what he wanted for Konoha, and neither was Obito lying (especially when we have whole chapters dedicated to his motivations).
No, Madara killed thousands upon thousands. Obito might have, we don't know, but given all the people killed by White Zetsu (who are Madara's) and who died due to Madara's plans are Madara's fault ...
And Obito gave that speech because he ... was objectively right? Simple statistics would tell you that if this plan brought about eternal world peace and indefinite happiness for everyone, without problems, then the people who died fighting against it are statistically insignificant.
Please learn what well-intentioned extremists means before using it in an argument.
So is Naruto, you realize? Or pretty much most protagonists in fiction?
The difference is in the damage and benefits 'my way' leads to, and how it's couched and presented in-story.
Naruto certainly was.
To you, certainly.
As opposed to Obito, whose life was ruined by Madara (or, more pertinently, that rock nin)? And Pain's life was ruined by Danzou, Obito did fuck all besides form Akatsuki with him on Madara's orders.
People understanding what's being told isn't a 'difference of opinion'. You talked about understanding - well, they'd understand easily. No values dissonance here.
And the lives you've saved and helped?
No, just a pragmatist and realist's standing point. And someone who can actually look at a situation objectively.
Do you ... have any idea what happened in Naruto at all?
Kakashi was not a rival! Obito outright tells us, with corroborating flashbacks and internal musings and the whole shebang, how he's doing this, not for Rin, but because he wants to fix this world and bring about a lasting peace.
And he's not even remaking it in his image - he's letting everyone else make the world in their image.
Pointless tangent is pointless.
Sure, considering Kaguya and everything else.
But, from his perspective, it would have easily worked out. And even then, his perspective is shown to be wrong because of Kaguya and what's involved - Naruto's protests about it weren't about 'it won't work', but 'by doing this, you lose all this, and ignore all this'.
Lolwut? Obito being manipulated by Madara was blatantly obvious since Madara was revealed, let alone since when Obito was. We're even told that Obito was supposed to follow Madara's plan perfectly, but diverged in one specific instance. Before Tobi being Obito was revealed.
Now what are you talking about? Obito never died until the bit with Kaguya!
Given I'm pretty sure you're talking about nonsense, I'll take your word for it.
You mean one time, right? And he failed that one time, by deciding to abandon a plan he'd spent decades working on and dedicating his life to? Because Naruto convinced him to?
So, are you against the very idea of redemption stories or what? And he abandoned the plan before Kaguya came into the picture, so it's not like he suddenly jumped ship when he realized it's not going to work. And you're bitching about him trying to make his death mean something? Wut. What, you think it would have been narratively more apt for him to die in a ditch somewhere, with everyone cursing his name, and we completely go back on the one consistent message throughout the whole manga?
They already did that when they went back on the whole 'Naruto is an underdog, getting all he got in life through guts and hard work'. Doing it again would have just ruined the story.
His 'reward', after death, is to go to the Pure World, same as literally everyone in the Narutoverse. How is that even a reward?
No, immature is holding onto a revenge fantasy and hate boner when the guy you're hating on has given up on his life's work, which he spent decades on, and sacrificed his life to save the world.
You're right. Convicts don't end up saving the world when they get rehabilitated.
The fuck? A story talking about failure is the opposite of immature. This story does that, BTW - Itachi admitting his fuckups, the thing with Obito too.
As for 'no holds barred Uchiha Clan worship' ... um, since you're not talking about abilities, but on how people are treated ... did we miss Madara? Or the whole 'Uchiha clan members, strength through trauma bit' talking about how every Sharingan user is mentally damaged? Though that bit might just be Nidaime's bias ...
No, he was always brainwashed. The exact circumstances and situation were not explained till then.
So we were given Obito's motivations and the understandable reasons of why he did what we did ... and you want to decry that because he became more sympathetic to you?
If you want to only read/watch about Always Chaotic Evil villains, go watch saturday morning cartoons or kids' novels or something.
Once again - 'I don't like how this part doesn't support my hate of the character' is not a retcon.
This, um, somehow contradicts his motivations and heroic actions later how, again?
And you do remember this was a war situation, he bombed the Ninja Army secret base which was co-ordinating everyone. Nor does this, again, somehow change the fact that he had changed by the end, saving the world ... which is, um, quite a bit more than what you're talking about.
If you mean he was suicidal, certainly.
The point was that after a near lifetime of pain and hardship, he found peace with his death, doing what he could to save the world from Kaguya ... and it was reflected in the afterlife, where Rin accepted him.
Sasuke, who was mentally tortured by his trusted elder brother into seeing his family die at said brother's hands for three days straight at a young age? Sasuke, who was twisted by the Cursed Seal, and his continued impotence against Itachi, then mind-raped again? Who, even after all that, could not bring himself to kill Naruto when he had him dead to rights, even though it would make him stronger? Who refused to kill people Orochimaru sent against him in the beginning? Who then got further mind-whammied by Obito, when he revealed that all his hate and rage had been for nothing, that he'd killed the person who'd guaranteed his safety and wasted his life, when the people who'd ordered his family dead were perfectly fine in Konoha?
Sasuke, who ... I don't think has actually done much damage so far.
If by 'whitewash', you mean 'tell him the truth about everything and explain things to him, giving him something to work with", sure. Please stop misrepresenting what actually happens.
?
... Um, he did.
No, that is categorically not what happened, considering his original plan was to kill Itachi, then to destroy Konoha. Both of which he decided not to do.
Stop making shit up.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about here, but it probably doesn't matter even then, considering you can't permakill Bijuu with Amaterasu.
Yep, he told Naruto that, as harsh as it was, the fate of the world was resting on their shoulders as they were the only two who could beat Kaguya, and so they couldn't sacrifice themselves for Kakashi and Sakura. Which is totally true.
Indra.
Because being pointlessly antagonistic isn't going to help much? What did Sasuke even do?
So, Naruto is being Naruto? How horrible.
Ugh. I wasted far too much time on this argument. I'm done. This argument's going nowhere.
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