But... They do have magic.

...that was my point. If they have enough advanced metallurgical knowledge to produce gun barrels they can use magic to do it. Of course, even with magic, they have to understand what they're doing, so it's not going to be easy at all. Well, depending on their ability to manipulate metal...
 
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40
Chapter Thirty-Nine

I floated behind Harry, as we made our way towards the Black House's library.
"Kreacher cleaned the house," I remarked.
Harry nodded. "He's happy to be of service," he said softly.
"Oh?"
Harry looked a bit uncomfortable. "I did as you said. Said 'thank you'. He was surprised. Then he did what you told me to tell him, and then a week later he did all of this."
The house was sparkling clean. There wasn't a smudge of dust anywhere.
"Did you receive any visits?" I asked.
Harry shook his head. "No. I mean, I think someone tried to come by, but Kreacher didn't let them in. Said they weren't allowed."
I hummed. "Well, that's good, I suppose. Now," I looked around. "What have you been doing for the most part? Practicing magic?"
Harry flushed. "A bit," he acquiesced. "There are a lot of books around here."
"Oh, I see," I nodded. The library did indeed have many, many, many books. "So, what spells have you learned?"
"Cleaning charms," Harry said. "And how to repair my glasses," he added.

I gave him a long look.
Harry fidgeted a bit under my stare. "I...shouldn't have?"
"You will need to learn how to protect yourself," I replied calmly, as calmly as I could. "You might not need it in the long run, of course, but it is better to be prepared. How fares the patronus?"
Harry grinned. "I got it down, all of it!"
He proudly boasted, chest puffed out in pride. "And it's a stag like you said!"
"Good," I nodded. "At least that's something. Now," I hummed. "No one but a visitor turned away at the door, uh? Did you get yourself an owl?"
Harry blinked, and nodded. "Yeah, I called her-"
"Hedwig?"
Harry frowned. "How do you know that?"
"I know a lot of things," I replied calmly.

Harry furrowed his brow. "So?"
"So did you get a letter?"
"The Hogwarts acceptance one!" Harry said.
"And no others?"
Harry shook his head. "No. I should have?"
"Probably," I acquiesced. "I would have thought they'd written to you or something, to ask why you were here, or how you managed...well, never mind," I sighed. I floated towards the books. "Oh! 'One hundred and one curses to rupture your enemy's organs, by Rupturus Organus'. Now...that's a bit..."
Harry looked very uncomfortable.
"Relax, I'm not asking you to learn that. I'm just looking through the books' titles. Uhm 'How to murder muggles and get away with it, by Itwasn Mey'." I blinked. "Nah, that can't be..."
I floated a bit higher.

"Charms for the house, by Miranda Goshawk. Uh, she sounds familiar," I mumbled. "Funny how they keep all the normal magic books on the higher shelves, and all the dark and curse learning ones on the lower ones. Really, they had quite the screwed up sense for 'reading a book before going to bed'. Get the ladder, this seems promising 'Defensive Charms, the Protego is your friend' by Turtlus...Turtley? Do wizards really have these strange names?"
I had to repress a chuckle as I floated a bit to the side. "And this one 'How to survive a Death Eater attack' by ...this is truly impossible... Cowardus Runnus? Who the hell calls his son 'Cowardus Runnus'? Who?"
Harry frowned, and quietly pushed the ladder to where I pointed him.
"And then this one," I said, "Constant Vigilance, by...Grandastor Moody? Must be Alastor's father. Didn't know he had one, but still," I mumbled. "Uhm...Oh! And this one," Harry bristled as he piled book after book on the table in the library.
"I have to read all of them?" Harry asked in the end, staring at the pile.
"No," I replied. "You have to learn them," I added. "Consider this: your enemy's minions can cast bowel rupturing curses that will kill you if they hit you even once," I looked at him, and he paled. "Now, ask yourself this question 'better if I know how to protect me' or 'better if I just ignore the issue and cry in a corner as people around me die trying to protect me'? Because that's the question you'll be asking yourself for the incoming years."

Harry looked down at the books. "If it's any consolation," I said calmly. "Tell me this doesn't beat being at the Dursley doing chores."
Grimacing, Harry picked up a book from the pile at random.
'How to Murder your Enemy, all while skiving the law' by Toeinth Eline.
Yeah, maybe that was a bit of a dark book.
Still, Harry didn't turn green at the first page, so that was progress, I suspected.

I crossed my arms over my chest as Harry read dutifully. The fact I was constantly hovering over his back meant pretty much that he couldn't skive off -and I was quick to realize when he tried to dally off or fake reading.
"You really want Voldemort to kill you, then?" I offhandedly asked as I caught him not turning the page after ten minutes.
It usually worked.
"You really want your parents' sacrifice to have been in vain?"
Yes, I surprised myself sometimes with how cruel I could be while giving pep-talks to eleven years old.
It didn't please me to do this.
At all.
But if he had to capture Pettigrew, then he was going to at least be able to face him off.

And then Harry practiced. He did what he could, really, but all children have limits.
Thankfully, I knew enough about tantrums from my brother's to...
I winced as the thought hit me.
I hadn't thought about that.
I hadn't thought about my family at all, had I?
I wonder what that made me, thinking about 'fixing things' around the worlds I visited when in fact I should be more worried about returning home. Were they worried?
"Are you all right?" Harry asked, and I blinked as I stared down at him from my spot.
"What is it?" I asked.
"You look...kind of down," Harry acquiesced.
"Just thinking about things," I replied quietly. "Things that might come, might not, and so on."
"Oh," Harry blinked. "You can see the future?"
I chuckled. "I saw the future, but now it's probably changed a lot. You go back to studying-"
Harry pouted. "I'm tired. I've been at this for hours."
"You need to reach the experience of a seventy years old wizard, in short time," I deadpanned. "And you're even lucky you have books. I want to see you practice spells until you can no longer stand. If you don't, you aren't going to survive the first year at all."

"But what's the point of being free from the Dursley if all you're making me do is study!?" Harry exclaimed, staring at me. I crossed my arms over my chest and narrowed my eyes.
"Then what's the point of breathing, if we're all going to die in the end?" I retorted. "What's the point of walking, if you're going to end up frail, weak and old dying in a bed? Stop whining like a spoiled child," I hissed at him. "You got the short end of the stick, but that's it. You can either sharpen it and turn it into a weapon, or you can keep flailing it around crying until you no longer have it. You barely tasted freedom, Harry, and you already wish to give it away? To be free, you'll need power. To be free, you'll need cunning, wits, knowledge and everything that can aid you."
I gestured at the library around us, my eyes still fixed on the boy. "And you think freedom comes for free? Freedom is earned. Freedom is fought for. You will bleed and you will suffer in order to be free, Harry."
"But why me," Harry whimpered. "Why did it have to be me?"
"The God-Author hates you," I shrugged. "Just like the God-Author hates me."

Harry looked at me as if I'd grown a second head.
"Well, think positive. You at least have an afterlife to look forward to," I continued. "I mean, I'm pretty sure you do have one."
"Really?"
"Yes. There you go. I just solved a great mystery of life for you. You have an afterlife. Just never do a Horcrux and you'll be set for life."
"Horcrux?"
"Very dark stuff," I nodded. "Don't murder anyone and you'll be fine, or if you murder someone, then repent afterwards. Really, that's how it works. Love cures all, killing people is wrong, and who the hell cares Molly Weasley killed Bellatrix during the battle of Hogwarts."
"Who?" Harry frowned.
"No one important, yet." I shrugged. "Point of order is, laws can be bent, and reshaped, provided there is a good reason for it. Imperius is wrong, but it isn't if it's done on a Death Eater. Funny, uh? The Unforgivables are wrong, but they aren't, really, if the ministry approves using them against Death Eaters."
Harry brought a hand to his head, a light headache probably forming.
"Don't think too hard about it," I said. "You're young, cheerful, innocent...and we've got some time to make sure two out of three of those things disappear."
I grinned. "But think positive. You can still be cheerful when everything's over."

Ka-chink.

Harry gripped the sides of the book, and nodded softly.
There were no other bouts of rebellion from him after that.
None at all.

The day of departure, we appeared directly into the Hogwarts train station, thanks to Kreacher.
And Harry was already robed, his stuff already in the train thanks, once more, to the House Elf.
"Bye Kreacher," Harry said. "See you in Summer. Thanks again."
"Kreacher is glad he could help Master Regulus' brother's friend's son Harry Potter."
Really Kreacher, sometimes you try too hard to show how much you still feel disgust for Sirius. Saying 'Harry Potter' wouldn't hurt you.
Harry boarded the train, and I sighed. "Well, do you remember what I told you?"
Harry nodded. "Yes, I do. You told me again five minutes ago."
"Repeat it then," I said calmly.
Harry found an empty compartment, and closed the door.
"Go to the seventh floor, find the Room of Requirements. Use it to train. Go to the library, look out for books I don't have, check them out and train with them. Don't trust Quirrell, no matter what. If I end up in Slytherin, talk with Professor Snape without yelling. Show more of my mother's side than my father's. Don't look anyone in the eyes. Behave. No Quidditch." He droned on. "Do not acquire the philosopher's stone. Don't even look for it." He swallowed thickly. "Use power if people don't take me seriously."
"And?"
"And whatever happens, never lose my temper."
"And why is that?"

He grimaced. "Because tantrums make me look weak and childish. Because I need to be strong."
"And why is that?"
"So that I can be free."
I nodded.
"Good. Now, about Pettigrew," I looked at him.
"Tell Dumbledore. Tell Dumbledore about the Horcruxes, and about everything else," he winced. "Tell him that until all others are destroyed he will not know where the last one is. Don't look him in the eyes."
Harry shivered a bit.
"And?" I stressed.
"Ask him for the Invisibility cloak and- do I really have to do it?"

I looked at him and growled. "Do you want to live, Harry?"
"And then I must use it to acquire the password to the Slytherin common room if I'm not in Slytherin, find Draco and...do I have-"
"Ask it as many times as you like, it won't change," I drawled.
"I must send a message to his father through him," Harry finished. "But that's-"
"Harry."
"I mean, you can't expect me to do that."
"It's nothing permanent."
"You want me to carve a 'Deliver the Diary to Dumbledore or your son dies' on his face! I think that's pretty much permanent!" Harry shrilly hissed.
I shrugged. "He has the diary, and he might decide to use it another way now that the future has changed. We can't risk it. The others aren't at risk, since they don't have living guardians. And I know the only weakness Lucius has is his son," I hummed. "He'll do it."
"That's wrong," Harry whispered. "That's still something wrong to do," he added, shaking his head. "Why can't I just...scare him? Prank him?"
"Because you want to deliver a message," I retorted. "And the flesh of an offspring is the perfect chalkboard for it."

I blinked.
"No, wait a moment."
The flesh of an offspring is the perfect chalkboard?
Really?
I scratched the underside of my chin. "Scratch that part. All of it."
Harry exhaled in relief.
"I'm not really myself most of the time," I said softly. "The longer I stay, the darker the thoughts become. Really," I shook my head. "Still, this means the laws were merely mitigated, not removed. Listen, change of plans," I looked at him. "Keep on training and practicing, and speak to Dumbledore. The training is just in case that if things go south, you can survive on your own long enough for reinforcements."
Harry nodded.
"And remember, be mature, act mature, and whatever happens-"
"Keep my composure," Harry muttered.

Ka-chink.

I nodded. "Good."
The door rattled open with a huff, as a bushy brown haired girl entered, accompanied by a round-faced boy.
"Excuse me, have you seen a toad? Neville lost his."
Harry shook his head. "I haven't."
"Oh, well," and with that, Hermione Granger closed the door and walked away with Neville in tow.
"See? The miracle of holding a bit of hair over your forehead to hide your scar does wonders. Anyway, that was Hermione Granger and Neville Longbottom, both future Gryffindors. Now that they're gone, you can take out the book on History of Magic."
Harry dutifully obeyed.

A few minutes later, a blond-haired boy and two goons stepped inside.
"I heard Harry Potter was on this train."
Harry lowered his book. "Really? I haven't seen him yet. He might be further up."
"And who would you be?" Draco asked with a sniff.
"Jeremiah Armstrong," Harry replied and inwardly, I chuckled at my inside-out joke. "Half-Blood, if that's what you're about to ask, Malfoy Draco, isn't it? And those are Gregory Goyle and Vincent Crabbe, right?"
"You seem well informed, for a half-blood."
"I approve of your father, he's doing such great things for the wizard world," Harry said with a light grin. I'd taught him how to do that. The light grin that makes people think you're really honest even while insulting them.
"Well, you're an all-right sort of guy then," Draco replied. "Which house do you think you're going to end up in?"
"Slytherin," Harry said. "Professor Snape's a half-blood and he's the head of the house. I'm sure I can go far in Slytherin."
"Well, sure, why not, he's my godfather," Draco said proudly. "Slytherin is the best house there is after all."
"Really? Cool!" Harry gushed. "I want to read more of History of Magic, because I heard that the professor isn't really all that great, but I hope you find Harry Potter. I'm sure he'll love to be friends with someone as important as you!"
Draco's head probably inflated. Really. Only an idiot would fall for such a thing.
"See you in Slytherin, Armstrong."

Oh, you had no idea, Malfoy.
...
I chuckled.
And the door closed. "See? You strung him along and avoided anyone disturbing you. Now you can take out the book on jinxes."
"I could have always locked the door," Harry mumbled.
"It would have made them suspicious, and they would have knocked and kept up at it. This way, no risks...Armstrong."
"Where did you get that name anyway?" Harry asked.
"Oh, somewhere," I shrugged. "Don't worry about that," I added. "It's not like it's important."

We were heading towards Hogwarts, and I wasn't in pain or suffering, yet.
The train was going fast, the countryside disappearing all around us.
And I hummed.
The 'Dark' side had to be cunning then, if it made me 'less dumb' with being Evil.

I just hoped Voldemort wasn't smart.
If he was, Harry was screwed seven ways over.
And without butter.

//Prepare for extraction. This derailment is improbable. That seems a bit excessive even for my tastes.
 
You have no idea how to interact with kids, do you?

I'll admit, I laughed at all the author names on the books. But, frankly? You're being pretty dumb about this, thinking learning all these spells will mean a damn thing for Harry if it ever comes down to a serious fight between him and Voldemort. Rather than trying to match a genius wizard who's spent half a century amassing knowledge and power in a fight involving magic and who's very experienced in using his magic for combat and killing, which is an utterly futile endeavor, he should be trying to prevent Voldemort from ever coming back (for fuck's sake, you have the info to permanently stop him, get someone trustworthy to help you), approach this problem through non-alternative means Voldemort's not experienced with, or try and get a base of people willing to fight with you/for you.

Maybe you can justify it by saying the universe is twisting you into 'stupid evil' or something, which is dumb but hey - author fiat. But it's still not fun to read about.
 
...
The flesh of an offspring is the perfect chalkboard?
>.<
Yeah. Good thing you caught yourself.
Calling Harry Jeremiya Armstrong is not taunting Murphy at all. :p
 
Well, this is an entertaining fic. Those author fiat laws on the HP works sound annoying.
 
Naruto's theme is relationships and social links count for more than power, and that everyone has their reasons for doing what they do. What follows from the latter is that communication and understanding is the key to peace and prosperity, which the Ninshuu rather blatantly represents.
 
Naruto's theme is relationships and social links count for more than power, and that everyone has their reasons for doing what they do. What follows from the latter is that communication and understanding is the key to peace and prosperity, which the Ninshuu rather blatantly represents.
Huh, that seems like an almost competent message about the world. Almost, because power and violence can solve problems just that most of the times it's in ways most people would not care for. Yah know after saying this it seems like naruto despite the ninjas, is one of the most realistic pieces of fiction out their.
 
Huh, that seems like an almost competent message about the world. Almost, because power and violence can solve problems just that most of the times it's in ways most people would not care for. Yah know after saying this it seems like naruto despite the ninjas, is one of the most realistic pieces of fiction out their.

Social structures and their failings have always been a thing Kishimoto likes to play with. Normally that would make a good story and it makes for an interesting hook for fans.

But! This is also the same guy who decided Obito Uchiha can have a happy ending. So the story points to Kishimoto still not have come to accept and understand the societal flaws and what to do about it.

This is a sad picture he draws for us. In fact, this SI fiction is much more emotionally mature than that side of the manga.
 
... Eh. Obito spent most of his life consumed by his obsession with the plan Madara concocted and manipulated and brainwashed into ensuring the plan went into play. At the end, he was shown who he used to be, the beliefs he held, and how happy those times were, and it shook him. In the end, he argued with Naruto, and Naruto (using his absurd charisma) was able to convince Obito of the futility of the plan. Kaguya's appearance just drove it home.

And then, at the end, Obito gave his life for the future Naruto inspired him to see. If you've read Naruto, you know how important a person's death is in ninja culture - Jiraiya mentions it, Kisame mentions it, but either way, a person is defined by who they are at the time of their death in Narutoverse society and culture. Then we also get into the cycle of hate and how damaging it can be, meaning Naruto, who exemplifies someone taking steps away from it, would definitely not bother with hating Obito when he's actively moving away from what he hated.

And then there's Obito's 'happy ending', which boils down to him dying and Rin forgiving him in the afterlife.

... Actually, why did I bother with this whole thing? I mean, the argument:

But! This is also the same guy who decided Obito Uchiha can have a happy ending. So the story points to Kishimoto still not have come to accept and understand the societal flaws and what to do about it.

Obito Uchiha having a happy ending has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of understanding of societal flaws.

This is a sad picture he draws for us. In fact, this SI fiction is much more emotionally mature than that side of the manga.

The SI hasn't done or shown anything in the story besides training Naruto in the Narutoverse, so I'm wondering where you're getting that from. If you're talking about the rest of the story, a lot of it's really just amateur psychology and pointless cynicism.
 
All of that is true in the perception of manga. Yet, Obito nearly causing everything to fail numerous times and then having scenes like Kakashi and Obito being dragged by Rin to save Naruto and Sasuke is cheesy and twisted. What is the reader expected to get from that? How you die is important in Kishimoto's eyes. But that's not how it works. Because Danzou died an asshole just like Obito died. Many of the people because of this, put him in the well-intentioned extremist category. That is one of the values dissonance instances.

But Naruto the main character saying Obito is awesome is really reaching. He can forgive. But even that won't necessarily be understood by the fans. Obito getting death as a clean slate card, is one of the wth moments for many people. He had many times to do the right thing. Only after failing numerous times,he got that what he was after was nothing.

Obito getting to be a Karma Houdini has everything to do with understanding crime and its punishments in a society. Obito doing the right thing after getting his ass kicked and having no hope for his own plan doesn't actually make him a good guy for dying anyway. But in Kishimoto's eyes,that makes everything okay.

The SI handling Shepard was more mature than Sasuke is treated in the manga.

Kishimoto deals with the isolation humans feel in a society better than expected considering it's a shounen. But his interpretation of things and solutions are childish at best.
 
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All of that is true in the perception of manga. Yet, Obito nearly causing everything to fail numerous times and then having scenes like Kakashi and Obito being dragged by Rin to save Naruto and Sasuke is cheesy and twisted.

Rin didn't actually drag them to save Naruto and Sasuke - she didn't actually appear. What you see is the representation of their thoughts and feelings.

And they made the decision to save Naruto and Sasuke themselves.

What is the reader expected to get from that?

That they both made the choice to save Naruto and Sasuke, and their past, feelings and motivation gave them the strength to manage it? I mean, it's cheesy, yes, but hardly 'twisted'.

How you die is important in Kishimoto's eyes. But that's not how it works. Because Danzou died an asshole just like Obito died.

What? No he didn't. Obito died saving the lives of the only two people who could save the world. Before that, he saved Sasuke's life.

Danzo died believing in his 'Hard Men Making Hard Decisions' schtick. Danzo died an asshole, Obito died a hero.

Many of the people because of this, put him in the well-intentioned extremist category. That is one of the values dissonance instances.

But ... he is a well-intentioned extremist. Both of them are, it's just the degrees and the good intentions that are different.

Danzo fought for a strong, capable, proud and safe Konoha. Obito fought for world peace.

But Naruto the main character saying Obito is awesome is really reaching.

Given who Naruto is, it really, really isn't.

He can forgive. But even that won't necessarily be understood by the fans.

Those who understand what the story's been trying to tell them for hundreds of chapters now will get it fairly easily.

Obito getting death as a clean slate card, is one of the wth moments for many people. He had many times to do the right thing. Only after failing numerous times,he got that what he was after was nothing.

The 'right thing' is completely subjective and meaningless, especially in Obito's case.

Had his plan worked, from his perspective and from the perspective of someone familiar with the plan itself and who believed in peoples happiness being paramount, it would most definitely have been the right thing. Literally everyone would have been living the life of their dreams!

Only, in following this plan, in following this one hope he had which Madara had brainwashed him into believing completely, he lost sight of other factors involved. Things Naruto reminded him off, showed him and convinced him off, that led to him looking at his past and making the decision he made. And he made that decision, even though it made everything he'd done for decades meaningless, because he believed in it and in the hope he saw in Naruto.

And that's just one side of the argument - the other's the notion of rehabilitation over punishment in civilized society. Over punishing someone for a wrong they committed in the past, over ensuring they do the right thing in the future.

This is not some simple argument to be treated so cavalierly, and Kishimoto is actually being more mature by actually presenting the rehabilitation side of the argument. From a purely objective level, it is superior. The arguments against it are mired in emotional reactions and notions of revenge, which are 'immature', for all the meaning of the word.

Obito getting to be a Karma Houdini has everything to do with understanding crime and its punishments in a society.

... He spent his whole life fighting for a peace he was brainwashed into believing, saw everything he fought for ground to dust in front of him, and basically committed suicide, and you think he's a Karma Houdini? Lolwut.

The SI handling Shepard was more mature than Sasuke is treated in the manga.

...

You have got to be joking.

The SI was a condescending jerkass to Shepard. He trivialized everything that happened to her, and consistently tried to break her. His handling of her was pure revenge fantasy material - except it's justified in story, since this is one of the few ways he has to both make her hate him and prevent him from moving on, and also ensure he can get his goal accomplished quicker. For all that, however, it is the wrong way to treat someone, and the SI actually acknowledges that in-story.

EDIT: This is getting kinda tangential to the story, so let's take this to the PMs, if you want to continue it, alright?
 
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Rin didn't actually drag them to save Naruto and Sasuke - she didn't actually appear. What you see is the representation of their thoughts and feelings.
And they made the decision to save Naruto and Sasuke themselves.
That they both made the choice to save Naruto and Sasuke, and their past, feelings and motivation gave them the strength to manage it? I mean, it's cheesy, yes, but hardly 'twisted'....

It's twisted to say that Obito's intentions were pure and now he is doing it for Rin again. Both cheesy and expects the reader to accept Obito as a hero. No.

...
What? No he didn't. Obito died saving the lives of the only two people who could save the world. Before that, he saved Sasuke's life.

Danzo died believing in his 'Hard Men Making Hard Decisions' schtick. Danzo died an asshole, Obito died a hero....

Obito died saying he would see Rin and didn't want Kakashi to be there as a rival. Sorry, if this was expected to be seen as cute. Let me say no to that. Obito did everything to get things to that point. The world is in danger because he could do the right thing numerous times and said no every time. Then we got the bullshit retcon that Madara had chosen Obito because he was too good. Except Kishimoto didn't stop there. He made a third brother to Hagoromo and said that brother had manipulated Madara and Uchiha clan all along. Failure at story telling.

Obito's death didn't even make up for one tenth of his body count. Did he die a hero?No. He just did just one thing right. Zabuza comes to mind. And the setting was deliberately set up to make him that way. If Kaguya wasn't the blatant puppet that she was, Kakashi and Obito jumping in the way stone spikes would be the least of their problems.

Well done, kishimoto. You made Kaguya a failure at villain genre to have Obito doing a good act and get to be with Rin. Wow.

..
But ... he is a well-intentioned extremist. Both of them are, it's just the degrees and the good intentions that are different.

Danzo fought for a strong, capable, proud and safe Konoha. Obito fought for world peace.
...

People lie to themselves according to Naruto.He said so to Sakura.

Danzou and Obito are champions of that. They are assholes. Kishimoto knew how much extreme the character was. So he had Obito giving a speech about none of it matters. That way, we get an out for the guy who killed thousands upon thousands.

They aren't well intentioned extremists. They are villains who call themselves the right ones in the swirling chaos.

The definitive villain type. My way or highway.

...
Given who Naruto is, it really, really isn't....

Naruto saying that and meaning it is different than acknowledging a heroic deed. Kishimoto broke SoD on that one. He drew parallels to Pain whose life was ruined by both Obito and Danzou. Good one.

...
Those who understand what the story's been trying to tell them for hundreds of chapters now will get it fairly easily...

Sorry. No. That's a difference of opinion and many share that. That's why we call it values dissonance.

...
The 'right thing' is completely subjective and meaningless, especially in Obito's case.

Had his plan worked, from his perspective and from the perspective of someone familiar with the plan itself and who believed in peoples happiness being paramount, it would most definitely have been the right thing. Literally everyone would have been living the life of their dreams!

Only, in following this plan, in following this one hope he had which Madara had brainwashed him into believing completely, he lost sight of other factors involved. Things Naruto reminded him off, showed him and convinced him off, that led to him looking at his past and making the decision he made. And he made that decision, even though it made everything he'd done for decades meaningless, because he believed in it and in the hope he saw in Naruto.

And that's just one side of the argument - the other's the notion of rehabilitation over punishment in civilized society. Over punishing someone for a wrong they committed in the past, over ensuring they do the right thing in the future.

This is not some simple argument to be treated so cavalierly, and Kishimoto is actually being more mature by actually presenting the rehabilitation side of the argument. From a purely objective level, it is superior. The arguments against it are mired in emotional reactions and notions of revenge, which are 'immature', for all the meaning of the word.
...

That's how you explain all the lives you have ruined. And a sociopath's standing point. I liked a girl who liked me as a friend. And maybe could love me if not for the rival. So I'm going to destroy the world and remake it in my image!

Hello Gendo Rokubungi or whatever. We definitely didn't miss you.

That plan wouldn't have worked and everyone knows that. Madara brainwashing thing was also a crutch that was retconned hundreds of chapters later. That was so blatant, Obito somehow died after Minato had become hokage. Let me tell you, that was hilariously bad in obvious meddling being obvious.

Then after Obito denying every time Naruto wanted to talk,we get how woe is Obito. And we should totally understand after he failed to end the world a few times! Yeah great parallel/callback to the past there Kishimoto. Good work.

After Obito knows that there is no future. He gets to die in a meaningful way when it's obvious he is going to die anyway. And his reward is waiting for him in the afterlife. What the hell is this? Redemption story? No. Just no.

Immature is all of that above being somehow equal to being forgiven and being called a hero. It's immature to call this the rehabilitation convicts get. This is either a story telling failure or just no holds barred Uchiha clan worship. Both are immature.

..
... He spent his whole life fighting for a peace he was brainwashed into believing, saw everything he fought for ground to dust in front of him, and basically committed suicide, and you think he's a Karma Houdini? Lolwut...

He wasn't brainwashed at first. We got that explanation after everything to make Obito sympathetic. He was brainwashed to believe while he was bombing bijuu dammas killing thousands? No,he knew full well at that point. Otherwise,he wouldn't have devised a way to con Madara and become ten tails jinchuriki. That's the problem with bad story telling. You somehow forget what you just told means.

Obito was going to die anyway. He chose to do something with his death and after seeing his own way wrong after numerous times being told so. He went to be together with Rin. Really? At least don't show it to us and make it uncertain. Then what was the point?

....
You have got to be joking.

The SI was a condescending jerkass to Shepard. He trivialized everything that happened to her, and consistently tried to break her. His handling of her was pure revenge fantasy material - except it's justified in story, since this is one of the few ways he has to both make her hate him and prevent him from moving on, and also ensure he can get his goal accomplished quicker. For all that, however, it is the wrong way to treat someone, and the SI actually acknowledges that in-story.

Yeah and Sasuke deserves that treatment. Instead he got both Itachi and Hashirama to whitewash him. Which would be acceptable if he became different. No, he just decided that he was right. And all of the world were morons. He was going to kill all the bijuu with Amaterasu. Then lectured Naruto for saving Kakashi and Sakura.

Instead this Sasuke gets both new techniques and attaboy from everyone. And Naruto is hopelessly reciting words from 4 years ago. Good one.

PS: I really didn't want to do this in this thread. But when you actually tried to go quote for quote, this became out of proportion.
 
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