- Location
- Southern Virginia
Blood of the Gods: A Fantasy CKII Quest
- Thread starter Cavalier
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Alright so last night I read the quest in more detail and I am frankly convinced that if we choose Khui we will lose the game. Let's consider the following:
Some could say, well what about what our mom said about him, she's an unreliable narrator! I am suspicious of our mother, and no one seems to have asked why exactly our mother would come from a foreign land and have a child wirth the pharoah, but she does sincerely want to protect us. She wouldn't advise us against Khui if she didn't think he was bad business.
And furthermore I think people need to realize that generals, especially for a dynasty such as ours that lacks such a high amount of legitimacy, are the #1 danger we will face. Considering the many reasons why we are not very legitimate, letting Khui near us is a recipe for disaster. Letting him marry us will end the quest. He will inevitably sire a son with us and then we will mysteriously disappear if we try to challenge him, or even if we don't.
uh, lol. See Marie Antoinette (an Austrian Queen hated by the Parisian public), Catherine de Medici (an Italian hated by a good portion of France), or the fact that in Egypt there are very few cases of foreign first-mothers during the late bronze age. Satysis is very clearly someone who is not going to be popular with many people and is already our mum. She is a foreign witch who is not even allowed to see the ceremonies, with antipathy between her and the regent. We can see a clear tension between her and the rest of the court. She is not really welcome, she's a desperate attempt to sire an heir that practically failed because it wasn't a boy.
Here is what I think we should do having re-read the quest.
PLAN SWORD AND SCEPTER
Isis
[ ] Reconcile with Ptahshepses
Did people really want to kill this dude? I know everyone's blaming the eunuchs for the corruption and devastation but why should we trust them? Eunuchs in China and the Ottoman Empire were historically abused as a scapegoat for the hatred of others. They're weird and unnatural and keep more to themselves, so they must be evil. I don't think so. At the very least if we keep this festering wound open it will haunt us through the rest of our reign. The eunuchs appear to be the most skilled administrators in the realm. Considering the level of decay and corruption observed under our father, we rather need to be careful.
Set
[ ] Establish network of informants in the palace [100 s. deben]
I was split between this and investigating Khui, but he hasn't shown up as an oblique danger yet.
Hathor-Sekhmet
[ ] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
We need to learn martial and this could connect us to someone in the army other than Khui that we can play against him.
Ptah
[ ] Choose a Mentor (Neferet...Meryawy, Ipy)
We can trust the dowager queen. Why? Because she has no skin in the game. She is someone with a genetic wasting disease and no heir. She has no antipathy towards us even if she doesn't like our mother. She has skills and legitimacy in the court we don't have, and she clearly cares for us and has since we were six and she saw us reading the Theogeny of Memphet. I think people need to take a step back and realize she might just step aside when we want to end the regency if we're in her good graces. Furthermore, she seems to be on the path to dying in the long-run. Let's use what we can from her and become perfect courtly queens.
These are my three choices for mentor and I'd like to get it out of the way now. These are people who I think we can trust, and the idea that we shouldn't need to trust our mentor implicitly is ludicrous. Our mentor is going to be the person that will most influence how we see the world as we rule, at least while they're teaching us. If we don't trust them, then we're setting ourselves up for failure and the mentor up for sabotaging us, and possibly becoming our enemy. Neferet is going to die, and like I said she has no skin in the game. Meryawy has isolated himself from the priests because of his lack of corruption, but picking him would still make the priests smile, even if he is not their creature, because it shows some respect. Ipy seems capable and stable, although pessimistic, which mixed with our wroth could turn us quite...caustic. I don't want us to be Voltaire with witty cynical quips about the state of things as queen, as hilarious as that would be.
Fundamentally, none of the other choices appeal to me. Red is right in that Ptahshepses cannot be our mentor- we don't even like the dude, slow down. Khui is as I mentioned above probably the single greatest threat to our monarchy. If we want a male martial companion or husband, Paneferer might be a good idea, although I'm not sure how the nobles are rolling here.
- The dynasty is on its last legs, it might not even continue after us if we follow tradition and don't do a matrilineal marriage.
- Khui has risen in a short time from being a captain to a general.
- He is handsome and capable, a fit man with the clear respect of his soldiers or else he wouldn't be able to command them with such ease.
- The dynasty has recently suffered a crushing famine under a regency.
- The noble families are holding back from marriage, partially because they are feuding over who will be next. Khui would be an excellent way to sidestep noble concern about x family becoming more powerful than them, because they would all be convinced they could curry favor with Khui.
- Khui's greatest weakness right now is that he is not as involved with the court. If we allow him to go close to us, even for the sake of martial training, he will use that opportunity to connect with the court. He could sow dissent between our mother and our aunt, he could plot against us. We would be functionally defenseless against him.
- The army has been neglected with few campaigns, meaning very likely that its allegiance to the pharoah has been precipitously weakened. Then Khui comes along and in two years rises from Captain to General? He's likely to be far well known among the organized component of the army than we are.
Some could say, well what about what our mom said about him, she's an unreliable narrator! I am suspicious of our mother, and no one seems to have asked why exactly our mother would come from a foreign land and have a child wirth the pharoah, but she does sincerely want to protect us. She wouldn't advise us against Khui if she didn't think he was bad business.
And furthermore I think people need to realize that generals, especially for a dynasty such as ours that lacks such a high amount of legitimacy, are the #1 danger we will face. Considering the many reasons why we are not very legitimate, letting Khui near us is a recipe for disaster. Letting him marry us will end the quest. He will inevitably sire a son with us and then we will mysteriously disappear if we try to challenge him, or even if we don't.
uh, lol. See Marie Antoinette (an Austrian Queen hated by the Parisian public), Catherine de Medici (an Italian hated by a good portion of France), or the fact that in Egypt there are very few cases of foreign first-mothers during the late bronze age. Satysis is very clearly someone who is not going to be popular with many people and is already our mum. She is a foreign witch who is not even allowed to see the ceremonies, with antipathy between her and the regent. We can see a clear tension between her and the rest of the court. She is not really welcome, she's a desperate attempt to sire an heir that practically failed because it wasn't a boy.
Here is what I think we should do having re-read the quest.
PLAN SWORD AND SCEPTER
Isis
[ ] Reconcile with Ptahshepses
Did people really want to kill this dude? I know everyone's blaming the eunuchs for the corruption and devastation but why should we trust them? Eunuchs in China and the Ottoman Empire were historically abused as a scapegoat for the hatred of others. They're weird and unnatural and keep more to themselves, so they must be evil. I don't think so. At the very least if we keep this festering wound open it will haunt us through the rest of our reign. The eunuchs appear to be the most skilled administrators in the realm. Considering the level of decay and corruption observed under our father, we rather need to be careful.
Set
[ ] Establish network of informants in the palace [100 s. deben]
I was split between this and investigating Khui, but he hasn't shown up as an oblique danger yet.
Hathor-Sekhmet
[ ] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
We need to learn martial and this could connect us to someone in the army other than Khui that we can play against him.
Ptah
[ ] Choose a Mentor (Neferet...Meryawy, Ipy)
We can trust the dowager queen. Why? Because she has no skin in the game. She is someone with a genetic wasting disease and no heir. She has no antipathy towards us even if she doesn't like our mother. She has skills and legitimacy in the court we don't have, and she clearly cares for us and has since we were six and she saw us reading the Theogeny of Memphet. I think people need to take a step back and realize she might just step aside when we want to end the regency if we're in her good graces. Furthermore, she seems to be on the path to dying in the long-run. Let's use what we can from her and become perfect courtly queens.
These are my three choices for mentor and I'd like to get it out of the way now. These are people who I think we can trust, and the idea that we shouldn't need to trust our mentor implicitly is ludicrous. Our mentor is going to be the person that will most influence how we see the world as we rule, at least while they're teaching us. If we don't trust them, then we're setting ourselves up for failure and the mentor up for sabotaging us, and possibly becoming our enemy. Neferet is going to die, and like I said she has no skin in the game. Meryawy has isolated himself from the priests because of his lack of corruption, but picking him would still make the priests smile, even if he is not their creature, because it shows some respect. Ipy seems capable and stable, although pessimistic, which mixed with our wroth could turn us quite...caustic. I don't want us to be Voltaire with witty cynical quips about the state of things as queen, as hilarious as that would be.
Fundamentally, none of the other choices appeal to me. Red is right in that Ptahshepses cannot be our mentor- we don't even like the dude, slow down. Khui is as I mentioned above probably the single greatest threat to our monarchy. If we want a male martial companion or husband, Paneferer might be a good idea, although I'm not sure how the nobles are rolling here.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Of course, that's six choices and we only have four. 
I was actually asking where you got the idea that "we don't have that problem" (with having an unpopular mother). But it sounds like we actually agree that our mother is tremendously unpopular in Court and that trusting her as our official Mentor would damage our Base Authority.
Your note of caution about Khui convinced me to see him as a rival and potential threat. I still think we can and should use him, but there is a great danger in having a competent general, especially since the last Pharaoh let the army become so weak. Ideally we'll be able to find and prop up a second competent general and play the two off each other, so neither one has total support from the common soldier and so that if one grows too powerful the other will try to preemptively weaken them. We can probably do the same between different officials in different officials (pitting a general against a priest, for instance), but fostering 'healthy' competition within the same field (two generals, two scholars, two priests, etc.) would be ideal.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Yeah, I narrowed those down to six. Personally I'd drop learn court protocol and take Neferet as our mentor to get that action+extra influence with the regent to do what we want. As for what else to drop...
Do you think sacred rites are more important than learning to drive a chariot? Because to me those two are lesser.
That was a copy-paste when I confused Neferet with Satysis.
Do you think sacred rites are more important than learning to drive a chariot? Because to me those two are lesser.
That was a copy-paste when I confused Neferet with Satysis.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I will say, if we're going to do that plan, we need more Martial. I know that sounds crazy, right? But basically, if we're going to find a competent man who can serve as a rival, then we need the skills to know what makes a good military man. And I think that chariot riding is more important than the rites, with the note that next year we need to do the Rites.
Basically, @Cetashwayo , I think the options you chose are pretty good, and any not chosen this year should be done next year. But I prefer Chariot slightly merely because I think it might 'block' a further developmental path.
Last edited:
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I've dropped court protocol and rites. Plan SWORD AND SCEPTER is a-go.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Can you choose multiple people with the same action?
- Location
- Austria
Hm. Are you sure it is not too early to establish informants? Wouldn't it be better to reconcile with eunuchs, and then, with their help, establish network?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Possibly. What would you choose there instead? The other possibility for me is investigate Khui.
- Location
- Austria
...which is not all that good without eunuchs and informants.
How about learning court protocol? We will need to take it anyway, and there is not visible downside to taking it right now.
Or do you think that choosing Neferet as Mentor will auto-get this action?
Alternatively, learning rites of Hathor-Sekhmet - again, will have to take it sometime anyway.
Last edited:
My only instinctive objection was dropping 'Court Protocol' since I consider that so important. OTOH, if we're going to take on the Dowager Queen Neferet as our Mentor, then it certainly make sense to leave that option for next turn. Temple rites are likewise important but not urgent.
That's a good point -- if the eunuch is going to be our spymaster, we should wait until we have his help to start with Palace intrigue
I don't think this is necessary or a good idea so early on. We know he's ambitious, and we know he will be a danger to us. However, I very much doubt he's actively seditious or treasonous at this early point in his career. Investigating him now -- especially when we're on the outs with our spymaster and don't have a network of informants -- probably gain us nothing and probably cost us his respect and trust (since I doubt our investigation would be secret).
If we do swap out 'informants' with anything, I'd suggest replacing it with either of the two pieces you cut out earlier. Learning court protocol would double-up on Neferet's teaching, but would prepare us sooner for court, for hearing petitions from our subjects and holding audiences with foreign ambassadors. Learning temple rites would give us more legitimacy with our patron goddess and with the priestly class. Good options, either.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
You can take an action regarding multiple people if noted, but the cost of doing so is not shared. IE, you could [ ] Investigate Khui and [ ] Investigate Meryawy on the same turn, but that would be 2 separate actions. If you had someone you trusted and felt capable enough you could also delegate an action to them; say if you trusted Ma'atneferure you could ask her to [ ] Investigate Atumnemhat (Ma'atneferure) for you.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I'll let it swim around during discussion and then present an updated plan in a bit. Main point I'm willing to move on is replacing informants with another action like court protocol or rites.
- Location
- Austria
I am in favor of court protocol, because we need to impress since day 1.
Since gods are probably less concerned about blood and legitimacy and are a wee bit more patient, we can afford to delay rites.
OTOH, mortals are going to be trying to undermine our authority (purposefully or as a side effect of being popular general or whatnot) right off the bat, so delay on court protocol will probably be more costly.
EDIT: Edited for clarity.
Since gods are probably less concerned about blood and legitimacy and are a wee bit more patient, we can afford to delay rites.
OTOH, mortals are going to be trying to undermine our authority (purposefully or as a side effect of being popular general or whatnot) right off the bat, so delay on court protocol will probably be more costly.
EDIT: Edited for clarity.
Last edited:
[X] Plan Trust Is In Short Supply
-[X] Learn Court protocol from Dowager Queen Neferet
-[X] Establish network of informants in the palace [100 s. deben]
-[X] Choose a Mentor (write in who)
--[X] Mother
-[X] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
Main focus on setting up the informants and getting the only Mentor I feel I can actually trust fully around here. This means we need to spend extra time with Neferet as well, to avoid looking too foreign...but that's okay because she's not a bad choice either.
-[X] Learn Court protocol from Dowager Queen Neferet
-[X] Establish network of informants in the palace [100 s. deben]
-[X] Choose a Mentor (write in who)
--[X] Mother
-[X] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
Main focus on setting up the informants and getting the only Mentor I feel I can actually trust fully around here. This means we need to spend extra time with Neferet as well, to avoid looking too foreign...but that's okay because she's not a bad choice either.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I don't know if we want Mum as a mentor here. She's already going to be our mom regardless.
[X] Plan Firm Foundations
(Reasoning: the key difference between this plan and the others so far is that I don't pick a Mentor this turn. There are several good options, and I want to lay the groundwork to make an informed decision next turn -- different actions let us work closely with the Dowager Queen, the Chief Scribe, and the Chief Eunuch for a year before we decide which of them should be trusted to mold us for the rest of our adolescence. Another feature of this plan: it spends as much of our Authority this turn as possible (15 out of 20) -- our Authority replenishes at the end of the year, but spending it early should ensure we aren't positively swamped with too many 'necessary but costly' actions in the future).
Ra
[X] Learn Court protocol from Dowager Queen Neferet
[X] Negotiate with tribes in Mefkat [-10 Royal Authority]
(Reasoning: 'Court protocol' is an absolute necessity -- if we're going to be acting publicly, we need to know what to do so we don't discredit ourselves. More importantly, this action also lets us work with Neferet to see how competent she is -- I agree with Cetashwayo that she's probably the best choice for Mentor in terms of acceptability, but we don't know whether she's capable enough to boost our final education trait as high as it can go.)
(Reasoning: 'Negotiate with Mefkat' is more a matter of discretion. I picked it because (1) we have limited Authority and will need to spend it on many actions in the future, so taking care of this task early on, while we have the Authority to spare, will ease any headaches later, (2) we have a very high Diplomacy stat and this action gives us a chance to 'show off' and demonstrate our competency as Pharaoh, and (3) this action also puts us in close contact with Wenamun, the Chief Scribe, who is another Mentor candidate).
Osiris
[X] Search for a new Apis bull [200 s. deben, 1 year] (Atumnemhat)
[X] Perform the New Year Rites to bless the Flood [-1 talent] (Meritamun)
(Reasoning: both actions are locked. I decided against 'studying the sacred rites' this turn -- in favor of the Mefkat negotiation -- but that will be a priority for next turn).
Isis
[X] Repair the irrigation canal systems [3000 s. deben 2-3 years] (Heranamenpanaef)
[X] Re-staff the Granaries Inspectorate [300 s. deben, 1-2 years ] (Sennefer)
[X] Sell gold for wheat [-5 talents] (Ipy)
[X] Reconcile with Ptahshepses
(Reasoning: 'Reconciling' with our chief eunuch is another absolute necessity. He is highly skilled at multiple fields -- Intrigue, Diplomacy, and Stewardship -- and seems fairly trustworthy despite the usual palace gossip and prejudice against eunuchs. We definitely want him on our side. If we do succeed in reconciling, he might prove a viable Mentor candidate as well. Ptahshepses is also ideally suited to serve as our spymaster, so we should reconcile with him before establishing our network of informants.
Hathor-Sekhmet
[X] Train Division (Ra) [Khui]
[X] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
(Reasoning: we need a Martial action to boost our Authority and establish our credibility as Pharaoh. We should learn to 'drive a chariot' now, since we have the Authority to spare -- remember it replenishes each turn -- and because it gives us an 'in' with our soldiers. We should pick up archery later, though, since that's more typical of past Pharaohs and more suited for a leadership role).
(Reasoning: the key difference between this plan and the others so far is that I don't pick a Mentor this turn. There are several good options, and I want to lay the groundwork to make an informed decision next turn -- different actions let us work closely with the Dowager Queen, the Chief Scribe, and the Chief Eunuch for a year before we decide which of them should be trusted to mold us for the rest of our adolescence. Another feature of this plan: it spends as much of our Authority this turn as possible (15 out of 20) -- our Authority replenishes at the end of the year, but spending it early should ensure we aren't positively swamped with too many 'necessary but costly' actions in the future).
Ra
[X] Learn Court protocol from Dowager Queen Neferet
[X] Negotiate with tribes in Mefkat [-10 Royal Authority]
(Reasoning: 'Court protocol' is an absolute necessity -- if we're going to be acting publicly, we need to know what to do so we don't discredit ourselves. More importantly, this action also lets us work with Neferet to see how competent she is -- I agree with Cetashwayo that she's probably the best choice for Mentor in terms of acceptability, but we don't know whether she's capable enough to boost our final education trait as high as it can go.)
(Reasoning: 'Negotiate with Mefkat' is more a matter of discretion. I picked it because (1) we have limited Authority and will need to spend it on many actions in the future, so taking care of this task early on, while we have the Authority to spare, will ease any headaches later, (2) we have a very high Diplomacy stat and this action gives us a chance to 'show off' and demonstrate our competency as Pharaoh, and (3) this action also puts us in close contact with Wenamun, the Chief Scribe, who is another Mentor candidate).
Osiris
[X] Search for a new Apis bull [200 s. deben, 1 year] (Atumnemhat)
[X] Perform the New Year Rites to bless the Flood [-1 talent] (Meritamun)
(Reasoning: both actions are locked. I decided against 'studying the sacred rites' this turn -- in favor of the Mefkat negotiation -- but that will be a priority for next turn).
Isis
[X] Repair the irrigation canal systems [3000 s. deben 2-3 years] (Heranamenpanaef)
[X] Re-staff the Granaries Inspectorate [300 s. deben, 1-2 years ] (Sennefer)
[X] Sell gold for wheat [-5 talents] (Ipy)
[X] Reconcile with Ptahshepses
(Reasoning: 'Reconciling' with our chief eunuch is another absolute necessity. He is highly skilled at multiple fields -- Intrigue, Diplomacy, and Stewardship -- and seems fairly trustworthy despite the usual palace gossip and prejudice against eunuchs. We definitely want him on our side. If we do succeed in reconciling, he might prove a viable Mentor candidate as well. Ptahshepses is also ideally suited to serve as our spymaster, so we should reconcile with him before establishing our network of informants.
Hathor-Sekhmet
[X] Train Division (Ra) [Khui]
[X] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
(Reasoning: we need a Martial action to boost our Authority and establish our credibility as Pharaoh. We should learn to 'drive a chariot' now, since we have the Authority to spare -- remember it replenishes each turn -- and because it gives us an 'in' with our soldiers. We should pick up archery later, though, since that's more typical of past Pharaohs and more suited for a leadership role).
Last edited:
- Location
- Austria
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Publicola's plan isn't bad. Maybe we could wait a year to pick a mentor if we use the time to establish an understanding of who's who.
- Location
- in the trash
A weak emperor and a strong general makes for a dangerous combination.
And yeah, I have to argue against making our mom our official mentor. She's a foreigner, she's distrusted and disliked by a lot of people, drawing attention to her in that way will inevitably inspire jealousy and resentment, and she serves to remind people of the lack of legitimacy of our rule. Unofficially, but officially giving her that kind of patronage is very dangerous when our position is shaky as it is.
After @Cetashwayo's argument, I'm much more swayed towards our aunt, who very much has a vested interest in seeing that we are able to rule successfully and continue the dynasty.
And yeah, I have to argue against making our mom our official mentor. She's a foreigner, she's distrusted and disliked by a lot of people, drawing attention to her in that way will inevitably inspire jealousy and resentment, and she serves to remind people of the lack of legitimacy of our rule. Unofficially, but officially giving her that kind of patronage is very dangerous when our position is shaky as it is.
After @Cetashwayo's argument, I'm much more swayed towards our aunt, who very much has a vested interest in seeing that we are able to rule successfully and continue the dynasty.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
[X] Plan Foundation of Power
-[X] Learn Court protocol from Dowager Queen Neferet
-[X] Hear public petitions at court
-[X] Establish network of informants in the palace [100 s. deben]
-[X] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
I'm sticking with the plan I came up with in the first place. Gets us an information network so we can properly evaluate mentor candidates, and the diplomatic skills to handle rulership. The rest is building our personal prestige and reputation so we can't be disappeared all of a sudden.
And for those of you who are talking about how useful mothers are as mentors, let's not forget Agrippina the Younger. Mothers can be just as ruthless and power-hungry as any others. Not that I think that about ours, but we still shouldn't extend unlimited trust to her.
-[X] Learn Court protocol from Dowager Queen Neferet
-[X] Hear public petitions at court
-[X] Establish network of informants in the palace [100 s. deben]
-[X] Learn to drive a chariot [-5 Authority]
I'm sticking with the plan I came up with in the first place. Gets us an information network so we can properly evaluate mentor candidates, and the diplomatic skills to handle rulership. The rest is building our personal prestige and reputation so we can't be disappeared all of a sudden.
And for those of you who are talking about how useful mothers are as mentors, let's not forget Agrippina the Younger. Mothers can be just as ruthless and power-hungry as any others. Not that I think that about ours, but we still shouldn't extend unlimited trust to her.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I don't think our mother is power-hungry, I do think she has an ulterior motive and using us as an Azor Ahai or something. Because I don't see much other reason for a random foreign woman to sire a heir to the Pharoah.
Why did I choose mentor first? Because I frankly think that evaluation of mentors doesn't change anything. Our aunt is regent, she is respected, she is the sister of the late pharoah, and she is dying. I'd like to get as much out of her, as quickly as possible, before she dies. Having our regency end amiably is by far the most important thing for us in that respect.
Why did I choose mentor first? Because I frankly think that evaluation of mentors doesn't change anything. Our aunt is regent, she is respected, she is the sister of the late pharoah, and she is dying. I'd like to get as much out of her, as quickly as possible, before she dies. Having our regency end amiably is by far the most important thing for us in that respect.