Remove ads

Black Panther 2

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Thanksgiving Box Office: ‘Black Panther 2’ Feasts on $64M as ‘Strange World’ Flops With $18.6M

Thanksgiving revenue was down sharply as many of the new holiday offerings failed to appeal to mainstream audiences. 'Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery' appears to have done good business, but Netflix doesn't report box office grosses.
www.hollywoodreporter.com www.hollywoodreporter.com
Marvel Studios and Disney's Black Panther: Wakanda Forever ... stayed atop the five-day holiday box office chart — Wednesday-Sunday — with a hearty domestic gross of $64 million from 4,258 theaters for a domestic total of $367.7 million through Sunday. Overseas, it grossed another $32.1 million over the weekend proper to clear the $300 million mark internationally and finish Sunday with $675.6 million.

Conversely, Disney Animation's Strange World bombed with a five-day opening of $18.6 million after receiving a mediocre B CinemaScore. That's the worst opening for a Disney Animation Thanksgiving title in modern times after getting pummeled by poor word-of-mouth, and the first of the studio's to earn anything less than an A- grade from CinemaScore. Overseas, it debuted over the weekend to $9 million from 43 material markets for a global bow of just $28 million.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Cosar said:
I'd be careful of assuming this, if only because while Wakanda's military showings haven't really been phenomenal most of that is more due to the medium in my mind than their actual capabilities.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think Wakanda has a worse bark than a bite... look at their tactics...

They fight in massed formations with spears.

Their big tactic to repel the Talocans on the ship? Tie ropes to people and hang off the side, and stab them spears...

The first BP highlights how one of Wakanda's weaknesses is their devotion to tradition. Wakanda has never been tested by an outside power. Everyone is afraid of them because of their demonstrations of technology, but I don't think they have the military doctrines in place to be able to actually fight a modern war. Okoye would scoff at using a ranged weapon...

I would really like to see Wakanda mess with Marvel Canada... who is just absolutely scary... and be humiliated. BUT THEN, you have progressive people in power like Shuri would then quickly adapt and make Wakanda something truly formidable.
 
There is a reason why the super soldier process is so similar to how Black Panthers are chosen. Stark told them all their tech is no match for the Hydra playbook
 
gyrobot said:
There is a reason why the super soldier process is so similar to how Black Panthers are chosen. Stark told them all their tech is no match for the Hydra playbook
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You know I never really thought about that.

Did Erskine essentially create a formula replicating the heart-shaped herb? I wonder how that might react with the afterlife. It sends Wakandan's on a trip to the ancestral plane, and since we know there are several known "afterlife" type things in Marvel... what happens to non-Wakandans? The interaction with the ancestors seems to a critical step in the Black Panther creation process...

Did Steve like, go talk to his dad or something?
 
Mind you it isn't a perfect procedure, but given how intrinsically Black Panther and Captain America have been tied together so far.
 
ladiesman said:
I think Wakanda has a worse bark than a bite... look at their tactics...

They fight in massed formations with spears.

Their big tactic to repel the Talocans on the ship? Tie ropes to people and hang off the side, and stab them spears...

The first BP highlights how one of Wakanda's weaknesses is their devotion to tradition. Wakanda has never been tested by an outside power. Everyone is afraid of them because of their demonstrations of technology, but I don't think they have the military doctrines in place to be able to actually fight a modern war. Okoye would scoff at using a ranged weapon...

I would really like to see Wakanda mess with Marvel Canada... who is just absolutely scary... and be humiliated. BUT THEN, you have progressive people in power like Shuri would then quickly adapt and make Wakanda something truly formidable.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Perhaps, but again I refer you to what I wrote above: we haven't seen any large scale military better than Wakanda onscreen. Like, seriously, nova corps? Not significantly better. Neither Asgard or Thanos were much better either, and both of those are supposed to be forces that could absolutely decimate advanced planets. Most of this is due to genre conventions, but for genre movies those matter.
 
Cosar said:
Perhaps, but again I refer you to what I wrote above: we haven't seen any large scale military better than Wakanda onscreen. Like, seriously, nova corps? Not significantly better. Neither Asgard or Thanos were much better either, and both of those are supposed to be forces that could absolutely decimate advanced planets. Most of this is due to genre conventions, but for genre movies those matter.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's true, but AT LEAST those armies had some ranged weaponry.

It is a bit odd that most advanced MCU people primarily fight melee. Wakanda does have personal energy shields, so it's possible advanced people of the MCU are in a Dune-like situation where ranged weapons tend to be fairly useless, so they've put everything into melee weapons.

I give a somewhat pass to Thanos' Endgame army... he was more so trying to prove a point to the Avengers. The Chitauri in Avengers were pretty chaotic swarmers, though.

It makes narrative sense for Wakanda. They're a society stifled by their adherence to tradition. Even in Wakanda Forever, Okoye openly scoffs at newer weaponry. They fight the way they have always fought. The problem is, their way of fighting was created to fend off raging barbarians... they've never had to fight a modern war. It's nothing to fault them for, they just have absolutely no experience.
 
Last edited:
ladiesman said:
That's true, but AT LEAST those armies had some ranged weaponry.

It is a bit odd that most advanced MCU people primarily fight melee. Wakanda does have personal energy shields, so it's possible advanced people of the MCU are in a Dune-like situation where ranged weapons tend to be fairly useless, so they've put everything into melee weapons.

I give a somewhat pass to Thanos' Endgame army... he was more so trying to prove a point to the Avengers. The Chitauri in Avengers were pretty chaotic swarmers, though.

It makes narrative sense for Wakanda. They're a society stifled by their adherence to tradition. Even in Wakanda Forever, Okoye openly scoffs at newer weaponry. They fight the way they have always fought. The problem is, their way of fighting was created to fend off raging barbarians... they've never had to fight a modern war. It's nothing to fault them for, they just have absolutely no experience.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wakanda has some ranged weaponry. We've even seen it used in battle, including in the battle at the end. They don't have a lot of it, but as you say we don't see a lot of ranged weaponry in big army post Avengers Chitari(and the Chitari weaponry had significant issues with such fearsome combatants as Guy with a bow and Woman with some guns). Hell, this even hits the heroes(at least the centerpiece ones): Iron man really tends to get up close and personal with enemies despite theoretically being much better at range, for example.

Also, the narrative for Wakanda that's been hammered home in the past 3 movies that feature it is that they're a superpower. The issue people had with Killmonger's plan wasn't that the world would just ignore it and stomp them. It was that it would be wrong to do so. The Avengers, including Captain America(who theoretically knows a thing or two about militaries and the like) took Vison to Wakanda because they though it was the most defensible spot. In this movie the other nations absolutely treat Wakanda as a big deal. Having Wakanda get spanked by Canada/US/Europe/etc wouldn't be furthering the narrative. It would be saying that the past movies talking about Wakanda's strengths were a lie. And, frankly, it would also be pretty terrible for the general idea of what Wakanda is meant to be out of universe.
 
Last edited:
Cosar said:
Also, the narrative for Wakanda that's been hammered home in the past 3 movies that feature it is that they're a superpower. The issue people had with Killmonger's plan wasn't that the world would just ignore it and stomp them. It was that it would be wrong to do so. The Avengers, including Captain America(who theoretically knows a thing or two about militaries and the like) took Vison to Wakanda because they though it was the most defensible spot. In this movie the other nations absolutely treat Wakanda as a big deal. Having Wakanda get spanked by Canada/US/Europe/etc wouldn't be furthering the narrative. It would be saying that the past movies talking about Wakanda's strengths were a lie.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not quite. The world believes Wakanda to be an existential threat of a superpower because they by all rights should be. But just as Wakanda has not been tested by the outside world, nor has the outside world actually been able to see what Wakanda is actually capable of.

Wakanda's strengths would never be a lie... they are still supremely technologically advanced over the rest of the world. That doesn't automatically mean they are militarily superior. They COULD be, but aren't necessarily so.

And, frankly, it would also be pretty terrible for the general idea of what Wakanda is meant to be out of universe.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is true, and why it won't actually happen this way.

I don't give the general movie going public enough credit to understand some nuance of how it could work really well for what Wakanda is supposed to be, or at least, for a facet of it. The old, ardent traditionalists almost saw Wakanda fall entirely through their strict adherence to that which came before. The young people broke free of those traditions and made a Wakanda a better, stronger place. That's beautiful!
 
ladiesman said:
Not quite. The world believes Wakanda to be an existential threat of a superpower because they by all rights should be. But just as Wakanda has not been tested by the outside world, nor has the outside world actually been able to see what Wakanda is actually capable of.

Wakanda's strengths would never be a lie... they are still supremely technologically advanced over the rest of the world. That doesn't automatically mean they are militarily superior. They COULD be, but aren't necessarily so.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sure, but by that standard we've never been able to see what America or the like is capable of, so the argument that Wakanda is militarily weaker then then them is somewhat suspect. Especially since, again, we've seen Thanos and Asgard's forces, and they aren't really out of par with Wakanda's forces. Though I don't think Wakanda is truly an existential threat, at least not militarily.

And, frankly, having a plot point in a new BP movie that in the first two BP movies and Avenger's Infinity war that all the cast were just complete and utter morons is not a good story move. Because that is what you're talking about: that the fight in BP was just about wether or not Wakanda was about to get it's face stomped in. That in Infinity war the Avengers were morons for going to just wakanda and not bringing in some other military forces. And so on.
ladiesman said:
This is true, and why it won't actually happen this way.

I don't give the general movie going public enough credit to understand some nuance of how it could work really well for what Wakanda is supposed to be, or at least, for a facet of it. The old, ardent traditionalists almost saw Wakanda fall entirely through their strict adherence to that which came before. The young people broke free of those traditions and made a Wakanda a better, stronger place. That's beautiful!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If it made narrative sense then the idea wouldn't be dissonant with what Wakanda is supposed to mean out of universe.

Also, I think audiences can absolutely understand some amount of nuance. The issue is that if you're in a situation with nuance then it's a situation that can be read in multiple ways, and at that point you can't blame people for having other reading. "The masses are sheep and just can't handle my ideas" is the argument of someone who's just making terrible ideas and is looking for an excuse.
 
Cosar said:
If it made narrative sense then the idea wouldn't be dissonant with what Wakanda is supposed to mean out of universe.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's not true at all.

Wakanda needs to be the Mary Sue of nations. It just is what it is. Portraying Wakanda as anything other than near perfect would cause a stir from the out of universe perspective. That is understandable given the cultural significance of the BP movies.

Also, I think audiences can absolutely understand some amount of nuance. The issue is that if you're in a situation with nuance then it's a situation that can be read in multiple ways, and at that point you can't blame people for having other reading. "The masses are sheep and just can't handle my ideas" is the argument of someone who's just making terrible ideas and is looking for an excuse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's not that, it's just that people tend to be somewhat defensive and reactionary in this case.

I think people would take issue with having a colonizer power (temporarily) take down Wakanda, and not consider the rest of the story.
 
ladiesman said:
Wakanda needs to be the Mary Sue of nations. It just is what it is. Portraying Wakanda as anything other than near perfect would cause a stir from the out of universe perspective. That is understandable given the cultural significance of the BP movies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is a weird take when the main plot of the first movie was how it was fucked up for Wakanda to isolate itself from the rest of the world to the point that the King would rather kill his brother than try and offer any type of help. Like the villain was born from their active inaction and destabilized the country because he was willing to abuse their traditions against them. Wakanda is a dream location but to call it perfect requires activity ignoring the plots of both movies.
 
ChildishChimera said:
This is a weird take when the main plot of the first movie was how it was fucked up for Wakanda to isolate itself from the rest of the world to the point that the King would rather kill his brother than try and offer any type of help. Like the villain was born from their active inaction and destabilized the country because he was willing to abuse their traditions against them. Wakanda is a dream location but to call it perfect requires activity ignoring the plots of both movies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Perfect... and admittedly "Mary Sue" was the wrong choice of words.

"Idealized" might be better? But that was my whole argument, that a core tenant of Black Panther is that Wakanda's greatest weakness is its absolute, dogmatic devotion to tradition, which we see on screen bleeds into the military. The Dora Milaje specifically eschew any sort of modern weaponry and choose to fight with spears. Granted, vibranium spears and they are EXCEPTIONALLY good at it, but they're still fighting with spears. And that's how they like it.

Wakanda's military strength makes sense given its nature... they are absolutely god-tier at stealth, recon, infiltration, spec-ops, etc. That's their whole thing. What they have precisely zero experience with is force projection, combined unit tactics, etc. They don't have the institutional knowledge or doctrines to fight an actual war because their very nature did not lend itself to that. Wakanda is designed to be defensive, with what offense they do have being highly specialized infiltration units.

A concentrated, "shock and awe" modern military advance on Wakanda would be an almost out-of-context problem for them which would rely mostly on their defensive shield... which again, might actually be enough. It's perfectly in-line with the universe of Black Panther... nations DON'T attack Wakanda because of all the secrecy, and that threatening Wakanda means the Dora Milaje show up and spear you in your sleep. They know Wakanda has technology beyond our imagination. They DON'T know that they don't really seem to have applied to that to their military.

A bit off of a tangent, but Wakanda's tech advantage seems to quickly be losing its edge. One of their "new" inventions in Wakanda Forever was... an Iron Man suit. That Stark had perfect a decade earlier, and Riri built in a garage (with SCRAPS! *sorry*). We should see in Armor Wars that Stark, Riri, and Shuri aren't the only ones who have made them. That's not even to mention the people casually selling alien tech on the streets, or the inevitable introduction of Latveria and Dr. Doom.

Mind you this isn't to trash Wakanda. I want to see an even better Wakanda that is able to put aside its traditions and become something greater... something which Wakanda Forever has already set the stage for.
 
The military wank discussion was already tiring on SB, why did you have to bring it over here because you got banned?

The reality is the average public isn't like SB/SV nerds, they largely don't give a flying fuck about military tactics.
 
ladiesman said:
That's not true at all.

Wakanda needs to be the Mary Sue of nations. It just is what it is. Portraying Wakanda as anything other than near perfect would cause a stir from the out of universe perspective. That is understandable given the cultural significance of the BP movies.

It's not that, it's just that people tend to be somewhat defensive and reactionary in this case.

I think people would take issue with having a colonizer power (temporarily) take down Wakanda, and not consider the rest of the story.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I haven't said that Wakanda needs to be perfect, and there are a number of flaws that Wakanda has shown in the movies and has been commented on. I said that this specific flaw that you want to introduce doesn't work, because it would go against some pretty core parts of what make Wakanda itself, especially in the manner that you want to have it be revealed. Having the nation who's character is that wasn't humbled by the west humbled by the west in that manner knocks out part of the core of the story regarding it.

And, no, it is exactly that. You're saying that people aren't able to handle the story beats, but you're just putting the issue there on everyone else, rather than thinking realizing maybe the issue is the story beats you're suggesting. It's like the 'Cap was a secret nazi/hydra' storyline. The backlash didn't occur because people thought that this was going to be the new normal going forward long term or whatever. It occurred because people didn't like the story beat because it went against the core of the character (especially in a way that obviously had to be reverted).
 
all fictions said:
The military wank discussion was already tiring on SB, why did you have to bring it over here because you got banned?

The reality is the average public isn't like SB/SV nerds, they largely don't give a flying fuck about military tactics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
More to the point, proper military tactics don't film as well as melee charges, and these ARE popcorn flicks.
 
all fictions said:
The military wank discussion was already tiring on SB, why did you have to bring it over here because you got banned?

The reality is the average public isn't like SB/SV nerds, they largely don't give a flying fuck about military tactics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean this is a nerd forum, on which we discuss nerd stuff. If we don´t discuss stuff, what is the point of making threads about stuff?

That said, in What If, Wakanda was perfectly able of beating a massive high-tech gundam-ish drone army, so, this Wakanda could probably do the same.
 
Last edited:
all fictions said:
The military wank discussion was already tiring on SB, why did you have to bring it over here because you got banned?

The reality is the average public isn't like SB/SV nerds, they largely don't give a flying fuck about military tactics.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean... but... we are the SV nerds that talk about this stuff. I never really got comments like this on boards like this. Isn't that why we are here?

I was trying to talk about it from a narrative perspective.

But I am trying to be New and Improved Ladiesman having learned from past mistakes, to grow and be better and MOST importantly... looking for a fresh start in a new home without bringing in baggage from elsewhere. If this line of discussion is unwelcome, i'm happy to drop it.

Sabertooth said:
That said, in What If, Wakanda was perfectly able of beating a massive high-tech gundam-ish drone army, so, this Wakanda could probably do the same.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's what I was getting at the whole time here.

Wakanda *CAN* absolutely be that... and... it would be even more awesome if it WAS.

But it was only that because... Wakanda was less tied up in its traditions and applied their technology differently than they had been.
 
I feel like I'm in a time warp back to 2009 and all the people seriously pissed off that the genocidal PMCs lost to some people shooting arrows the size of trees.

This argument's a nonsense.
 
foamy said:
I feel like I'm in a time warp back to 2009 and all the people seriously pissed off that the genocidal PMCs lost to some people shooting arrows the size of trees.

This argument's a nonsense.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not even, they're mad that a popcorn flick dared show a military superpower with dramatic to look at military tactics rather than realistic military tactics- mad at basic conventions of visual dramatic medium rather than at basic story direction
 
Last edited:
Zap Rowsdower said:
Not even, they're mad that a popcorn flicks dared show a military superpower with dramatic to look at military tactics rather than realistic military tactics- mad at basic conventions of visual dramatic medium rather than at basic story direction
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

*mad* feels like an exaggeration.

Even annoyed probably isn't right. It's more of a "this might work better" situation.

And if you don't think so, that's ok! We're having a discussion, and disagreements are expected. I apologize if my observations/ideas caused any sort of strife. I'm happy to drop the conversation and move on. Thank you.
 
foamy said:
I feel like I'm in a time warp back to 2009 and all the people seriously pissed off that the genocidal PMCs lost to some people shooting arrows the size of trees.

This argument's a nonsense.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Uh, where are people upset that Wakanda is a superpower? I didn't read any fetishizing about dropping rocks on them or sicking the Astartes on their civilization.
 
Last edited:
ladiesman said:
Not quite. The world believes Wakanda to be an existential threat of a superpower because they by all rights should be. But just as Wakanda has not been tested by the outside world, nor has the outside world actually been able to see what Wakanda is actually capable of.

Wakanda's strengths would never be a lie... they are still supremely technologically advanced over the rest of the world. That doesn't automatically mean they are militarily superior. They COULD be, but aren't necessarily so.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You are doing a lot of reading into a couple of battles that were choreographed by the MCU directors, who clearly don't care about choreographing anything that remotely resembles modern warfare. It's the MCU, guys rushing haphazardly into melee battles to stab/club other people is basically a sign of being an actual military at this point. Like yes, maybe in the MCU-that-cares-about-milnerdery, Wakanda would have 5th generation warfare using its multispectrally stealthed platforms and real-time microdrone meshes to monitor targets, which are then immediately marked for termination by orbital vibranium plasma cannons, and Talokan has like, weird abyssal biotech based on vibranium-catalyzed selective breeding so they have battleship whales that can ram things at 100 knots or whatever. But we're not in the world where the MCU directors and choreographers are obsessive milnerds who want to portray postmodern warfare, so we end up with what we've got.
 
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top