Behind the Serpent Throne (CK2)

[X] Plan Neptune Deployment

If the reason we started ro match early was to seize the initiative from the Prince, we should capitalize on that.
 
Why does "seizing the iniative" have to involve sending a large part of our forces so far away that they can't intercept the Prince if he does make it through Irit?

Besides, isn't simply moving our troops into advantageous positions before the Prince makes his move, like I try to do, just a different way of "seizing the initiative"?
 
To clarify, once all the armies have linked up in Irit, do you want them to move towards Basrat (provided the Prince hasn't attacked them yet of course)? Because that would mean abandoning the fortifications we have there.
Why wouldn't we if they're not being attacked? You don't raise armies and have them do nothing, they're meant to apply pressure to your opponents, and leaving the fortifications doesn't mean they can't be fallen back too.

Regardless if our army in Irit haven't been attacked by that point in time then we should've honestly won, or more specifically the Emperor has, as Kiralo himself could still die during battle. Prince Jinhai would have three choices:
  1. Do nothing and keep his forces within Basrat. It's passive, and not remotely a way to win a war when you're outnumbered. The forces in Irit could simply stay on the defensive in Irit building more fortifications while skirmishing, while Kiralo conquers Hirand and threatens both northern Basrat and northern Hari-Os. Thus for a variety of reasons this can be discounted as something Prince Jinhai would not do.
  2. Moved his army in force north towards Hirand and confronts the army there perhaps hoping a great enough win can shatter the army, kill Kiralo/Generals, and push on the capital. Unlikely to happen unless the dice fucks Kiralo with all the light cavalry/scouting bonuses giving tactical bonuses, and with a very good reserve army nearby in Hari-Nat but it's a winning play if it works and if he can count on someone/thing within the capital so it doesn't have to be sieged. The problem as I mentioned earlier though is this leaves Basrat quite vulnerable to the 100k troops in Irit.
  3. He leaves enough troops to be able to defend Basrat, but that means it's highly unlikely he has enough forces to win in Hirand particularly with the reserves that can be called upon from the border city.
I'd like to say I was being naive or overly optimistic, but this is kind of reality when your enemy numbers 120-140k, with an additional 30k he can call upon but leaves areas incredibly vulnerable, and has no noticeable qualitative advantage vs our forces which number 330k. We can't even be overly pessimistic and assume the numbers Prince Jinhai has are wildly wrong and incorrect either, as Kiralo's martial score is high enough he rerolls dice under ten and further applies a +30 bonus. So if were pessimistic and say we rolled 11, with a bonus of +30, it'd still give us a roll of 44 thus the numbers would still be within reasonable margin. Our forces simply out number them to that degree.

I guess there was a reason Prince Jinhai was trying to hire mercenaries even with Csirit's xenophobia, while at the same time exploiting Hari-Os's riches. We cockblocked that though and did the same with Hari-Su, if I remember correctly getting 90+ on both rolls which were critical. If that hadn't happened we'd be in a much more uncertain position, if still having the numbers advantage. We'd also be worse off if we didn't already have an army raised within Irit when the rebellion was launched.

Prince Jinhai may also simply have been expecting less competent leadership given Kuojah's distaste and inexperience with war along with his age, where as Prince Jinhai was both reknowned for his military leadership and young. Kiralo kind of cock blocked him there too though.
 
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Even then, Kiralo's judgement is that Prince Jinhai still definitely has paths to victory. But the events of the last month or so have finally started to turn against him in a way that they hadn't before. Still, one 'glory' of the battlefield is that the entire destiny of a people can be changed by a single mistake.
 
Why wouldn't we if they're not being attacked? You don't raise armies and have them do nothing, they're meant to apply pressure to your opponents, and leaving the fortifications doesn't mean they can't be fallen back too.
Because the Prince could still be on his way to attack them and if they leave the fortifications, they lose an advantage.
Regardless if our army in Irit haven't been attacked by that point in time then we should've honestly won, or more specifically the Emperor has, as Kiralo himself could still die during battle. Prince Jinhai would have three choices:
  1. Do nothing and keep his forces within Basrat. It's passive, and not remotely a way to win a war when you're outnumbered. The forces in Irit could simply stay on the defensive in Irit building more fortifications while skirmishing, while Kiralo conquers Hirand and threatens both northern Basrat and northern Hari-Os. Thus for a variety of reasons this can be discounted as something Prince Jinhai would not do.
  2. Moved his army in force north towards Hirand and confronts the army there perhaps hoping a great enough win can shatter the army, kill Kiralo, and push on the capital. Unlikely to happen unless the dice fucks Kiralo with all the light cavalry/scouting bonuses giving tactical bonuses, and with a very good reserve army nearby in Hari-Nat but it's a winning play if it works and if he can count on someone/thing within the capital so it doesn't have to be sieged. The problem as I mentioned earlier though is this leaves Basrat quite vulnerable to the 100k troops in Irit.
  3. He leaves enough troops to be able to defend Basrat, but that means it's highly unlikely he has enough forces to win in Hirand particularly with the reserves that can be called upon from the border city.
You're still assuming that if one of our armies attack Basrat while the Prince has attacked and defeated the other one, he will be forced to turn around to defend Basrat. But he's already managed to talk his supporters into rebellion and gotten a victory by then. His path to the capital would be as good as open and he's not going to be willing to pull back. Maybe his supporters will desert or maybe he's a good enough diplomancer that he can convince them to keep going. And then we're in trouble since the army in Basrat can't intercept him when he's closing in on the capital.
 
[X] Plan Random
We are in the situation where we have a significant strategic advantage and time favors us. Therefore we don't need any brilliant tactical reversals we simply need to make sure to avoid making any major mistakes and avoid giving our enemy the chance to pull something audacious like defeating us in detail which is still possible at this juncture. It's also worth remembering that our opponent has better troops than our provincial armies do so anywhere near numerical parity favors him. Also the QM said this plan was more solid if more passive which makes this decision easier.

On another note, if this plan comes together and nothing disastrous occurs what's the plan to actually end the war?
 
My problem with Plan Neptune Deployment is the weakness in Irit. The Irit troops are not of the highest caliber, and the Nestirin reinforcements are still some way off and split into two competing armies.

Prince Jinhai can't afford to sit and wait, so I guess he will gamble everything on an all-out attack. If he should strike Irit, there is a very real risk that the army will break and Jinahi has a free road to the Capital. And, as The Laurent has said, if he takes Csrae while we take Basrat, then Prince Jinhai wins.

So I think we should send a good number of high morale troops with a tough general into Irit to make sure that the armies put up a hard fight, and even if they get unlucky and lose, they will manage to retreat and not rout.

Now Plan Random is defensive, but we can afford to go slow. If Jinahi should really do nothing, then the southern armies can fortify Irit and the northern armies can start an advance through Hirand. But I would like to delay that decision until all the southern armies have arrived in Irit and are firmly entrenched.
 
Wait, did I say it was more solid? It was more that I said 'it isn't totally unsolid.'

...I'm trying to carefully not take sides here? Like, as far as it goes, neither plan is a clear disaster.
 
On another note, if this plan comes together and nothing disastrous occurs what's the plan to actually end the war?
Either Kill Jinahi or drag him to the capital in chains or force him to flee the country, I would think.

...I'm trying to carefully not take sides here? Like, as far as it goes, neither plan is a clear disaster.
That sounds highly... encouraging. Clearly we are master strategists.
 
Because the Prince could still be on his way to attack them and if they leave the fortifications, they lose an advantage.
Did you read my post? I addressed that very thing in the first point.
You're still assuming that if one of our armies attack Basrat while the Prince has attacked and defeated the other one, he will be forced to turn around to defend Basrat. But he's already managed to talk his supporters into rebellion and gotten a victory by then. His path to the capital would be as good as open and he's not going to be willing to pull back. Maybe his supporters will desert or maybe he's a good enough diplomancer that he can convince them to keep going. And then we're in trouble since the army in Basrat can't intercept him when he's closing in on the capital.
No I'm not. It's you whose seems to be basing things on games like EU4 or Crusader Kings where people sieging you is simplified thus meaningless and trivial.

People matter, families matter, land matters, politics matter in war. Prince Jinhai can't leave land undefended. He just can't. That is simply so politically unfeasible it's ludicrous to consider and it's how you turn people loyal to you away with a snap of a finger, as while he may be fine with his supporters land being ruined and their families being captured or killed if it makes military strategic sense, they most certainly are not and even the greatest of diplomats won't convince them to do so. Thus he must split his force, or his force will split of on their own. Thus where my argument of having two separate armies comes as it applies pressure from different directions, thus from different political factions within his supporters.

You also seem to only apply movement when it applies to our armies, and not his. It takes 8 weeks to travel from Basrat, through Irit, to the capital, and that's without considering there will be a 100k army right in the way behind fortifications. A 6-7 week time frame going the other way, with an even larger army in the way.
 
I'll say that you both make points at least good enough that people would make them IC about either plan.

/Trying to be coy and careful.
Oh god, Neptune and I are a noble and a general squabling about what to do while Kiralo just looks at us while thinking we're all idiots, aren't we?
Wait, did I say it was more solid? It was more that I said 'it isn't totally unsolid.'

...I'm trying to carefully not take sides here? Like, as far as it goes, neither plan is a clear disaster.
"Not a clear disaster" is a good enough endorsement to me!

Wouldn't it be funny though if during the first battle, the Prince gets killed by a stray arrow/cannonball/firebolt, thus making this entire discussion useless?
 
(Awfully sorry for the doublepost!)
People matter, families matter, land matters, politics matter in war. Prince Jinhai can't leave land undefended. He just can't. That is simply so politically unfeasible it's ludicrous to consider and it's how you turn people loyal to you away with a snap of a finger, as while he may be fine with his supporters land being ruined and their families being captured or killed if it makes military strategic sense, they most certainly are not and even the greatest of diplomats won't convince them to do so.
You say that, but Kiralo doesn't discount the possibility of this scenario happening, even if it's unlikely.
Kiralo would feint into Irit and have his main force go through Hirand. Ultimately, if Jinhai took the capital and Kiralo took Basrat, that meant that Jinhai won. With control of the Emperor, he'd be able to tear apart the coalition, and the army would no doubt dissolve into infighting and distrust, at best.
If he can convince his supporters that attacking the capital would end our raiding of their land sooner than falling back to Basrat would.... I mean, he could basically use your own strategy against us: attacking the land of our supporters, forcing us to either fall back to defend them or continue and risk losing their support. He doesn't even have to do it, the mere fact that he'd be in a position to potentially do it would cause the nobles in our army to panic. And then what?

Look, I'm not against sending troops into Basrat to pressure the Prince, I'm just against sending them right now before we know for sure what move the Prince is going to pull. If the Prince throws his army one way and we can hold him back, I'm totally fine with having the other army sending the majority of its men into Basrat, I just don't want to do it now when we could be needing them as backup.
You also seem to only apply movement when it applies to our armies, and not his. It takes 8 weeks to travel from Basrat, through Irit, to the capital, and that's without considering there will be a 100k army right in the way behind fortifications. A 6-7 week time frame going the other way, with an even larger army in the way.
100k if the Imperial Army and the Armies of Nestirin arrive before the Prince manages to attack them. And if the Prince manages to defeat our forces in Irit while we're in Hirand, it'll take awhile before message about that reaches us.

@The Laurent Actually, how long would a spirit message take over this distance in this case?

In any case, it's 3 weeks from the capital until the border of Hirand and we'd be further than that, so it would be atleast a month after this before we're back to the capital, including the time it takes for the message to reach us.

Calculating how long the Prince would then need to move from Irit to the capital is trickier. For one, we don't know if there will be enough of our army there left to stall him, if he'll have to besiege cities or if they'll just panic and surrender or whether the Army of Hari-Nat can intercept and stall them long enough. There's a chance we'll make it, there's also a not insignificant chance that we won't. And if the Prince manages to reach the capital, it would be a disaster.
 
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Reaction to posts almost a year old because why not:

"Well, that bun's one I cooked for him, so if you eat it, well, the sages of the south say…" Amai frowned and chuckled, "Uh, something something ties of substance something something food."

Narain frowned but took a bite of it anyways.

Oh! It was something about how eating someone's food created a bond with them, mixing of substances, something or other.

I like how she does that thing I do where you don't know what to say but instead of pausing or trailing off you just fill the space with whatever comes to mind?

"My apologies, Southern barbarian, I must respectfully say that it was not ultimately a request. Take my coin. Take it and move aside girl."

Amai briefly considered everything and said, in stumbling but rather on-point Csiritan (insults, now that was Csiritan she really knew well), "You can go fornicate with a donkey, if you weren't a eunuch, all respect owed and due to your position."

"What did you say, girl?" Fei-Da asked, and his voice wasn't raised at all but there was this cold fury in it, and she knew that it wasn't a smart move to annoy a sage.

Her mother said it wasn't a smart move to be a servant and go out on the town flirting with men instead of settling down with that poor cobbler...and yet here she was.

And this strikes me as absurdly bold. Like, if Kueli hadn't come in I imagine Fei Da could have covered up a murder, possibly. Or be incensed enough to not care.
 
Well, it was a close vote.
Vote Tally : Original - Fantasy - Behind the Serpent Throne (CK2) | Page 107 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.3.2

[X] Plan Neptune Deployment
No. of Votes: 5

[X] Plan Random
-[X] 30k men will stay in the capital. The Army of Yeadalt will remain there as well. This leaves a force of 55k men to guard the capital.
-[X] 110k men, the Northern Army, will move to the border with Hirand and fortify it to prevent the Prince from taking this route. If possible, they can send raids into the parts of Hirand that support the Prince, but the army itself shouldn't enter Hirand yet.
-[X] The Army of Hari-Nat will join with the Northern Army, bringing it up to 155k men. If the Governor thinks he can do this without too much problems, he should send his faster units ahead of the rest of his army so that they can join with the Northern Army as soon as possible.
-[X] The remaining 35k men, the Southern Army, will link up with the Army in Irit. Together with the Army of Rerin, this will bring the force there up to 89k men, 119k if the Armies of Nestirin can join them in time. If the Prince moves through Irit and the army can't drive him back, they should delay him as much as possible, no matter what it takes.
No. of Votes: 4

Total No. of Voters: 9
 
So, @Neptune , who are you thinking of tapping to lead the border army or the Iritan army? I mean, I assume Kiralo goes with the main force into Hirand, and you have Kueli going too because they're bros.
 
So, @Neptune , who are you thinking of tapping to lead the border army or the Iritan army? I mean, I assume Kiralo goes with the main force into Hirand, and you have Kueli going too because they're bros.
Well there's already a leader in charge of the army within Irit, so I was initially assuming they'd just continue their command at least in the short term just so they don't suffer any disruption or disorganization in case Prince Jinhai attacks. Once the reinforcements and the armies from the various provinces have arrived, I imagine they'd be a reorganization of command but that's a month away.

Or is that a generic leader we don't know about OOC, so you don't want to go with that approach? Given Kiralo knew there was good chance that army would be facing Prince Jinhai, the General should be competent at least.

For the border army, given it's going to consist of 10k Imperial troops and 45k Hari-Nat I'd imagine the command would be someone from Hari-Nat, or an imperial general either from that province or with experience there to make things easier. Given the Governor and his entourage are marching with the army, I'd imagine some political considerations are likely to come into play particularly as he wants to garner glory and fame.

So really, it depends how you want to play things out. Do you want to generate some characters form the various provinces, or would you prefer we use the ones we've already been told? Or the ones we can assign during the influence turn?
 
Hrm, that's what I'm trying to decide. I know that assignment stuff will probably not be easy, so I'm left torn at the moment. I mean, also sick, but that's another matter.
 
There's this.

Council of Generals: The Council of Generals is a rather large entity on theory. Compromising of dozens and dozens of men, approaching a hundred, they are in charge of every aspect of the Imperial Army, as well as all potential aspects, and liasing and sorting out all matters between the Imperial Army and any provincial or noble forces. It is a Herculean task, and thus of course there is a large council in which all members have equal power, say, and ability to influence the outcome in order to best fulfill the will of the Emperor and make sure that the army does not stand united and viciously insubordinate against the will of the best people.

Ha. Ha. In truth they are, and have been for almost two or three generations, united in a sense. Their union is that there are always five powers in the Council, and everyone else bends their knee. The General of the East, West, North, South, and the general of the Center, who is in theory that most powerful, and the one who answers most directly to the Emperor...or to whoever in the court is pulling his particular strings.

Into this complicated mix, Kiralo has stepped, as the first Envoy To The Army From The Imperial Seat in decades, and if he is successful in his position for any longer than a year or two before being swept aside or suborned...the first ever to reach such lofty heights. All others have failed miserably.

Qing'lu of Lineage Nu: Born a bastard of some sort, he is a clearly a fighter. In his late forties, he is the 'General of the South' and thus the Southlands, Nestirin and certain portions of Rerin are all under his sway. He is a brash man, who deeply, deeply hates Kuojah, and yet he seems as well to know his policy, and under his sway are the council members who deal in such vital matters (and ones close to Kiralo's heart) as cavalry. He distrusts Kuang, and dislikes Juae...honestly, none of the other five are spared a harsh word when he gets a chance to dish the dirt.
--Chao of Lineage Hao: In charge of the cavalry of Csirit, he is an intelligent man who, six months ago, extended an offer of help and alliance to improve the cavalry of the Empire. Kiralo deflected calls for anything more immediate by saying that 'If the Wind-Dancers come to Csirit, everything changes'. He is still, one assumes, waiting for this miracle.

Juae: The General of the West, he is not a general at all. An enthusiastic and well-read scholar and bureaucrat, he is constantly, according to others, swept along by the winds of his own passions for new weapons, technologies, and other ways that war might be improved. He casts a deciding vote in council matters, and his opinion of the others is impossible to fully grasp. Either way, he's currently obsessed with an Anlan technology that, according to him, has great promise: in fact, Kiralo has agreed to follow up on this when he becomes Envoy. As has fortunately succeeded.

Ha'dong: The General of the East, he used to be a large supporter of Prince Jinhai. The youngest by far, he tends to be well dressed, in his early thirties. Now he leads the charge against the man, and Qing'lu speculates this is out of shame for his previous conduct. Either way, he is strongly opposed to Kuojah, despite his antagonism with Prince Jinhai as well.

Kueng: The General of the Center, and thus the leader of the entire Council, he is an old, withered man, rich, powerful, and entirely Kuojah's man. He is known for his lechery, at least as a younger man, with the young soldiers under his command. Under his command, though, is the key: he's the real deal, a skilled general that for all his reputation as merely Kuojah's mouthpiece, knows how to

Li-Jan: General of the North. A big, bearded man, he seems in some way to be affecting his stance and northern ways, and yet not much more can be said. It has been claimed that he would 'hear out' Kiralo based on his respect for Kuojah, and that much is clearly true, and yet his character and plans have not been sounded out. Qing'lu has accused him of enjoying sitting on the side and being the 'deciding vote' but it is uncertain whether this is mere prejudice, or a fuller truth.
"Compromising of dozens and dozens of men, approaching a hundred, they are in charge of every aspect of the Imperial Army, as well as all potential aspects, and liasing and sorting out all matters between the Imperial Army and any provincial or noble forces"

Given that part, it could be a good opportunity to introduce some portion of the Council of Generals again given it's highly relevant in the current situation.

Or if you don't want to go into much detail and keeps things focused on the macro scale, just obfuscate it behind the Council of Generals did their job. It'd allow you to focus on the wider scope of the war and Kiralo and the people you've already introduced, and should mean a faster progression of the war turns.
 
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