BattleTech Ideas and Discussion

[Jonen C]

I am going to guess most wierdness about the IS map would be answered if we knew exactly what map they were looking at when they made it.

As for Nestor's Lantern, in concept it's really more of an instant Eye of Terror button, but calling it that adds context and implications that aren't intended (this is a 100% Chaos God-free zone, thank you very fucking much).

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I am picturing an ACME atomic bomb style device (almost entirely decorative) with the serial number NOFTL4U, hooked up to a big red button.

Pushing it breaks hyperspace, makes the lights go out (because every fusion reactor in range now needs serious retuning), makes thrusters fail hilariously with severe consequences (because fusion thrust in BT depends on hyperspace interaction, also see fusion reactors above) and the nearest star - at a minimum - undergoes core collapse.

... Eye-of-Terror-inna-can unleashing Chaos daemons would be less lethal for anyone within a few lightyears of ground zero.

... also probably the kind of thing that makes things more knowledgeable about hyperspace sit up and take notice. No mysterious ships flitting around the edges of systems in Wild Space?

 

[Jake]

I am going to guess most wierdness about the IS map would be answered if we knew exactly what map they were looking at when they made it.

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And a bit more about the "horrible mathematical things", as Mal puts it, that were done to turn it into the stellar cartography equivalent of the London Underground map: Accurate as far as it goes and easily comprehensible, but strips out a huge amount of detail and is only useful for people who are interacting with it as passengers.

 

[namar13766]

If the Outer Sphere was more populated, the Clans wouldn't have hesitated to launch attacks on their neighbors. So why didn't they?

Hell, in OTL, the Cloud Cobras launched an invasion of the Tanite Worlds by themselves, and those planets were just past the Clans Homeworlds!

 

[Pirx]

If the Outer Sphere was more populated, the Clans wouldn't have hesitated to launch attacks on their neighbors. So why didn't they?

Hell, in OTL, the Cloud Cobras launched an invasion of the Tanite Worlds by themselves, and those planets were just past the Clans Homeworlds!

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Committing genocide against the population of just this one system proved to be so taxing that the Cobras brought in the Burrocks for help.

Conquering a larger state may simply be outside the capabilities of a single clan. They'd have to defend their existing enclaves against their rivals and prior to the Wars of Reaving no single clan was so much ahead of their rivals.

All examples we have of clans launching interstellar operations like this either involve a forced peace at home (OP Revival) or desparate Clans abandoning the Homeworlds (Hellions, Scorpions, Ravens)

 

[namar13766]

...You know, something just hit me. If the Outer Sphere was more populated, and those polities were hostile to the Clans...why did they let the Wolf's Dragoons reach the Inner Sphere?

Hell, the Wolverines could have ended up taking refuge in one of those nations, or making their own (With BlackJack and Hookers!)

 

[Mal-3]

...You know, something just hit me. If the Outer Sphere was more populated, and those polities were hostile to the Clans...why did they let the Wolf's Dragoons reach the Inner Sphere?

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Space is Big. For every star displayed on a map there are thousands not shown. If one wishes to go anywhere without being seen it's entirely possible to travel through uninhabited systems and thus pass undectected.

 

[Pirx]

The other polities would absolutely hate the Clans, because they would be facing constant raids. And the Clans might finally have a reason to keep all those lovely battleships around.

...you know, this could make for an interesting scenario all on its own.

 

[namar13766]

The other polities would absolutely hate the Clans, because they would be facing constant raids. And the Clans might finally have a reason to keep all those lovely battleships around.

...you know, this could make for an interesting scenario all on its own.

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It casts Revival in a different light.

"Once we conquer Terra and restore the Star League, we'll be able to conquer the Outer Sphere!"

 

[Dark Mage]

It casts Revival in a different light.

"Once we conquer Terra and restore the Star League, we'll be able to conquer the Outer Sphere!"

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This is the same thinking that made Imperial Japan decide they could take on the British Empire and USA after stalemating in China.

Hmmm, thinking of the various Clans as military cliches with different agendas makes the Clans more Imperial Japan than Mongol Empire.

 

[Jonen C]

Space is Big. For every star displayed on a map there are thousands not shown. If one wishes to go anywhere without being seen it's entirely possible to travel through uninhabited systems and thus pass undectected.

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Hell, you put 4500 populated worlds in the outer sphere on your map?

None of the great houses (including the Capellans, cut down to size as they are) would have much issue identifying more than 4500 "uninhabited" systems inside their borders, possibly they would be able to find an order of magnitude more if they did comprehensive stellar surveys. (Actual degree of nonhabitation not guaranteed.)

The outer sphere is a few isolated beads strung out in the wastness of space.
I imagine anyplace where you find inhabited systems that are within one jump of each other that is considered a densly populated region.

Edit: quoth BT wiki
"The Inner Sphere is a region of interstellar space surrounding Earth to a radius of roughly 450 - 550 light-years, generally demarcated by the outer borders of the "Great Houses." Within this region of about 2 million stars, there are approximately 2000 inhabited planets. Beyond the Inner Sphere is the Periphery."
Meaning, on average, for every inhabited planet in the Sphere, there are a about thousand stars in the sphere. And the sphere ia densly populated.

Edit2: Compare contrast Elite Dangerous: The Bubble (of human inhabited space) is a rough sphere with poorly defined edges about 150-200 LY radius from Sol, and consists of ~20k inhabited systems.

 

[YuffieK]

Well, BT was started 20+ years before ED. Back then, the idea that exoplanets were abundant was kind of farfetched. The 1/1000 stars with potential colonizable worlds probably was being generous back then, even if slightly illogical in some cases.

(Sirius VI is one of the more egregious possible planetary systems, from an astrophysical standpoint)

 

[Jonen C]

I note that ED retconned the Elite universe in a way that is not at all impossible to do with BT - it's fairly easy to go with the idea that there're a lot of planetary systems that got passed over in the initial sweep of exodus simply on account of seeming to be more work to make habitable than worthwhile. Of course - as Mal-3 noted doing that would be a lot of work.

... OTOH one can always speculate what one may find in the systems passed over.

 

[Aztez Fan]

Which, I mean, not the end of the world but it does raise a lot of questions about how the Clans managed to stay a secret once the Inner and Outer Spheres start talking.

There's a lot to be workshopped there.

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Note, that it depends on WHEN the Outer sphere properly rencountered the Innersphere. And interestingly the Warden/Crusader split didnt form until 2980, while the Golden Century when the clans were vibing so hard they were creating stuff none stop and even creating warships (Which with more nations in the outersphere means they simply won't stop doing so) which went from 2830 and 2930. Meaning all you need to do is have it be that the innersphere does know about the clans. Not everything, and with the shattering of the IS the info gets even more fragmented. But this understanding that both sides know each other is what fed into things going to shit over in Clan space.

Afterall, what better cause for the clans to invad as early as 3000....then the Spark which caused the total collapse of the Great houses leaving them fractured and "vulnrable" to the Outersphere. Either your going to have to make the fall of the clans earlier, or have the clans invaded but Broke themselves and retreated back home, and things are going to hell.

Since all evidence points to the Clan Warden/Crusader debate being settled by the fact Sparks have broken the Innersphere and the Outer sphere not is a genuine threat to it and Terra. Something that their culture would not allow for, and thus would be forced to initiate General Order 137, Hidden Hope Doctrine.

Personally like to refer to this CYOA for the clans for some great fun. My best choice was everyone except the Wolves and Jaguars got to invade lol. So the invasion can star as early as 2980, or as late as 3000, but no later then that as by that point the great house has firmly started to crumble.

Clan Invasion CYOA

Clan Invasion CYOA Trothkin, the time has come. The Grand Council has voted in favour of our return to the Inner Sphere and while the Wardens called for a Trial of Refusal they were defeated. Prepare yourselves to win the right to participate in the Invasion of the Inner Sphere and the cre...

docs.google.com

 

[Jonen C]

Frankly, how the Clans deal with the spark is probably going to be a bigger wrench in the works for how the clans develop than anything.

They are statistically unlikely to have no sparks. Their societal set up causes friction by default, and adding sparks to it is akin to dousing the entire pile of oily rags and kindling with accelerant.
And given there are many clans with their own take on things, there's probably a spread of different approaches with variying degrees of success and failure, catastrophic or otherwise.

I'd expect there's a full blown Society, where one or more Clans tried to breed for and strengthen the Spark to get better scientists, and therefore the Sparks took over.
Other clans seeing that and not liking that outcome may try to control the Spark (resulting in much Fun to be had by all), though I believe some of the more balanced clans may instead try to channel the spark towards productive ends, which is likely going to be the approach with the best outcomes for any of the Clans.
Then you know there will be Clans that will deny or try to abjure the Spark, resulting in even more fun.

... so howabout wars of Reaving kicking off right out of the Golden Century?

 

[Aztez Fan]

... so howabout wars of Reaving kicking off right out of the Golden Century?

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Considering how much more advancement in their tech they'll be under pressure of doing being flanked by other nations....Oh dear lord I wouldn't want to be in the middle of it. But no, considering the nature of things beyond the society behind the scenes. I full expect SOMETHING to happen by 3000, and that something isnt just going to be the Wolf's Dragoons. Its going to be FAR larger then anything then just simple Refugees thats for sure.

 

[Jonen C]

And to throw into the mix: Words that send Clanners into paranoid witchhunts: GeneCaste Impostors among us.

 

[Aztez Fan]

Yep thats certainly going to be fun. Also heres the only depection of what rout Kerensky went on the exodus. And how it would roughly look in the spark AU

Spoiler: the path

It's honestly pretty naratively intriguing that Prinz Eugens mutiny happens extremely close if not in the lands of that Outer Sphere nation. Meaning weather they know it or not, Kerensky stopped a potential chunk of the fleet from just straight-up invading people. Sure he could have carted things to avoid them, but still, maybe some poor calculations being so far from the inner sphere made some hic-ups.

Just food for thought for @Mal-3 when writing their lore.

 

[Jonen C]

AFAIK that's the Gum "nebula".

 

[namar13766]

It's honestly pretty naratively intriguing that Prinz Eugens mutiny happens extremely close if not in the lands of that Outer Sphere nation. Meaning weather they know it or not, Kerensky stopped a potential chunk of the fleet from just straight-up invading people.

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…What if they weren't invading?

What if they wanted to split off and settle in that nation instead, but Kerensky couldn't allow it because that would have accelerated the fracturing of the Exodus Fleet?

Hell for all we know, some of the Fleet may have successfully done so, but Little Nicky changed the records to Conceal that little fact?

 

[Aztez Fan]

…What if they weren't invading?

What if they wanted to split off and settle in that nation instead, but Kerensky couldn't allow it because that would have accelerated the fracturing of the Exodus Fleet?

Hell for all we know, some of the Fleet may have successfully done so, but Little Nicky changed the records to Conceal that little fact?

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To be fair if they only just wanted to settle down, as in leaving behind their Warships and Mechs. Then Kerensky would no doubt have let them. If they tried to KEEP their Gear then kerensky would put his foot down. Cant forget how volatile people are and became due to not liking being civlians and decided to fight people or take their stuff.

As such if a part of the fleet did leave, it would have been shockinly peacefull, minus any attempt at trying to sleank away with a warship.

 

[namar13766]

To be fair if they only just wanted to settle down, as in leaving behind their Warships and Mechs. Then Kerensky would no doubt have let them. If they tried to KEEP their Gear then kerensky would put his foot down. Cant forget how volatile people are and became due to not liking being civlians and decided to fight people or take their stuff.

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And what if Alexsandr Mother-REMFing Kerensky decided he wouldn't let them go even if they left their military materials behind, because that would still have been the first step on the slippery slope to fracturing the fleet?

 

[Aztez Fan]

And what if Alexsandr Mother-REMFing Kerensky decided he wouldn't let them go even if they left their military materials behind, because that would still have been the first step on the slippery slope to fracturing the fleet?

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Think it this way, everyone who leaves would have anyway. The only thing keeping them there is their loyalty and gear. As such, they would still make it to the Cluster. Perhaps fewer in number, but less broken as a whole. Besides being able to just take a rest in an Outersphere nation while BSing about whats happening at home would be a funny send off when the fleet restocked with supplies leaves.

 

[namar13766]

I think it might be hilarious if some of the nations they passed went "Here's some supplies. Now fuck off."

 

[Mal-3]

First of all I want to apologize for not responding sooner: I've been dealing with a nasty cold the last couple days, and then internet at my place broke so hard you'd think Elon Musk bought Xfinity.

Note, that it depends on WHEN the Outer sphere properly rencountered the Innersphere. And interestingly the Warden/Crusader split didnt form until 2980, while the Golden Century when the clans were vibing so hard they were creating stuff none stop and even creating warships (Which with more nations in the outersphere means they simply won't stop doing so) which went from 2830 and 2930.

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The spark emerges in strength in the 2970s, roughly the same time the Political Century begins in earnest. And while the emergence isn't exactly uniform it covers all of charted space and Beyond. (What's Beyond? None of your business, that's what.)

Frankly, how the Clans deal with the spark is probably going to be a bigger wrench in the works for how the clans develop than anything.

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Oh absolutely. The biggest headache when it comes to workshopping the Clans in the Spark Age is figuring out how to introduce the spark into that system without it breaking down entirely and/or mutating it well beyond what we'd understand as Clanner. Clan society is... brittle. It doesn't handle change or challenges to its precepts with much grace; canonically when it was successfully challenged in the Great Refusal Clan society imploded in ways that one single battle, no matter how decisive, should've caused.

The Clans existing in a more populated Deep Periphery is easy enough to reconcile with a little thought: having learned that they have neighbors, and that the neighbors don't have anything near the military capability of the SLDF, the Clans decide to stretch out a bit and bring Kerensky-style Civilization to them. In short, instead of Tanis being a secret one-off side project of the Cloud Cobras, every Clan gets a bunch of similar worlds to add to their resource and labor pool, with varying levels of bastardry based on the clan involved in the colonialism. The Golden Century is also the Century of the Great Khanate, where the Blood of Kerensky proved their worthiness as conquerors, etc. So Clan Space is probably bigger (and here is where I realize I'd have to redraw the map again) and maybe has vassal states or somesuch, I don't know.

The spark, though... the key attribute of the spark - at least when it comes to the Clans - is that it crosses caste lines. It can appear in the lowest freebirth laborer or in a trueborn warrior with equal potential. A situation where any person in any caste can be a force magnifier of absurd proportions is a recipe for a complete and total breakdown of Clan society. Which, while I suppose is realistic, is also not quite as much fun from a literary standpoint?

 

[DReznov]

The spark, though... the key attribute of the spark - at least when it comes to the Clans - is that it crosses caste lines. It can appear in the lowest freebirth laborer or in a trueborn warrior with equal potential. A situation where any person in any caste can be a force magnifier of absurd proportions is a recipe for a complete and total breakdown of Clan society. Which, while I suppose is realistic, is also not quite as much fun from a literary standpoint?

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Add an entirely new caste, one made entirely of those with the spark; have that caste be internally divided between those born in the original castes. but outwardly appear unified to the rest of the castes.