BattleTech Ideas and Discussion

[XelianEmperor]

Their seems to be recs thread but no ideas or discussion thread now there is.

first of i joined SB after the failure of Entry with a Bang so what happened?

 

[consequences]

Their seems to be recs thread but no ideas or discussion thread now there is.

first of i joined SB after the failure of Entry with a Bang so what happened?

Click to shrink...

Too many cooks, no real agreement on direction, and no one willing or able to put in the time and energy to keep it actively moving forward.

That's the polite answer anyway. Certain people being shitposters, notably Psyckosama declaring that if no one was going to play with the ball the way he wanted to then we all sucked and our ideas were dumb and we smelled funny, along with the hurr durr stomp battletech them dumb brigade noticeably contributed to its final failure state.

 

[XelianEmperor]

Too many cooks, no real agreement on direction, and no one willing or able to put in the time and energy to keep it actively moving forward.

That's the polite answer anyway. Certain people being shitposters, notably Psyckosama declaring that if no one was going to play with the ball the way he wanted to then we all sucked and our ideas were dumb and we smelled funny, along with the hurr durr stomp battletech them dumb brigade noticeably contributed to its final failure state.

Click to shrink...

Now i want to make a fic with the same premise.

also a few months back i think I saw someone made a Reentry with a bang but i kinda lost the link do you know this?

 

[consequences]

Now i want to make a fic with the same premise.

also a few months back i think I saw someone made a Reentry with a bang but i kinda lost the link do you know this?

Click to shrink...

Sb's search is back up, so here you go. Of course that attempt also had a number of issues and then apparently died.


Then there was My own abortive attempt, which I made in a futile effort to get the various naysaying noncontributors to either put up or shut up instead of constantly saying how much aEwaB sucked without adding anything useful. The only story snippet I'm aware of I was something I knocked out here.

Somewhat, by which I mean entirely more usefully, you have Death By Chains/Trace Coburn's Meeting Engagement, which has the unique virtue among the four approaches to the same premise of not actually confirmed as being entirely dead, raised as undead, killed again, resurrected, then disintegrated with the soul captured in a gem, although the last contribution is by the author's words an outtake contained here.

 

[XelianEmperor]

Sb's search is back up, so here you go. Of course that attempt also had a number of issues and then apparently died.


Then there was My own abortive attempt, which I made in a futile effort to get the various naysaying noncontributors to either put up or shut up instead of constantly saying how much aEwaB sucked without adding anything useful. The only story snippet I'm aware of I was something I knocked out here.

Somewhat, by which I mean entirely more usefully, you have Death By Chains/Trace Coburn's Meeting Engagement, which has the unique virtue among the four approaches to the same premise of not actually confirmed as being entirely dead, raised as undead, killed again, resurrected, then disintegrated with the soul captured in a gem, although the last contribution is by the author's words an outtake contained here.

Click to shrink...

Why wont you just make your own?

 

[Vehrec]

Because for some of us, writing is like pulling teeth?

 

[ecs05norway]

So, my own plot bunny jumped up and bit me, figured I might get some discussion going over here.

3014: Seeing a chance for success with the Federated Suns distracted, Max Liao pours more resources and troops into backing Anton Marik's rebellion. He is able to make significant gains along the border, including the oft-contested Andurien worlds.

Janos Marik turns to unlikely ally Hanse Davion, who also has cause to dislike the Liao regime. Max has also been stirring the pot there, backing the ambitions of Michael Hasek, who was already working against the First Prince even before his later, outright treachery. That, and Operation Doppelganger, are still a decade away, but even now Hasek is enough to prove an annoyance. With Marik providing evidence of Liao's backing to both insurrections Hanse has the excuse he needs for war.

Without the benefit of the full series of Galahad excercises, however, the AFFS is not prepared for the kind of serious, all-in assaults seen in the canonical 4th Succession War. The result instead is a series of limited offenses, more akin to the skirmishes of the 3rd Succession War. The infusion of Davion troops helps to crush Anton's rebellion, and Hanse is able to negotiate a separate agreement with Jamie Wolf when an MI-6 team rescues Joshua and the Dragoon dependents that Anton had taken hostage. Some Liao territory is taken on both sides, but not a great deal before the skirmishes peter out.

Nonetheless, the cooperation and friendship between Davion and Marik has begun to solidify. Feeling pressured on both sides even more than in canon, Maximilian Liao responds positively to Katrina Steiner's peace overtures, hoping to bring them in on the FWL's far border. Initially pleased at seeing no less than three of her four rivals respond to her proposal, Katrina Steiner sees the truth quickly enough: Liao is desperate, and Davion and Marik simply want to ensure that no one comes to the Confederation's rescue. Disgusted, she decides that perhaps now is not the best of times for such a radical approach. She does come to a limited understanding with Davion, but remains wary of his close ties to her realm's longtime enemies in the Free Worlds League.

Operation Doppelganger and the subornment of Michael Hasek are but the beginning of Max Liao's desperate attempts to save his realm from the destruction everyone knows is coming. Justin Xiang Allard plays his part to perfection, delivering several highly successful raids for the Capellan armies in the mid-3020's while simultaneously orchestrating their preparation for the final hammerfall. A marriage does take place, between Ardan Sortek and Kristen Marik, but with Kristen already leading her own mercenary unit in Davion's service it is seen as more symbolic than of dynastic import.

The Gray Death Legion is used by the FWLM as an Opposition Force during Project Perseus, their version of the Davion Galahad excercises, and never raids Sirius V. They are provably elsewhere when ComStar distributes footage of what appears to be them destroying the domed city of Tiantan. Investigation of the charges leads to the arrest and trial of several minor nobles in the region. Grayson Carlyle discovers the Helm cache and manages to arrange to keep a full half of the material discovered, turning the remainder over to House Marik. Janos and Hanse both agree to Carlyle's proposal to freely distribute the memory core, sharing copies with both Steiner and Kurita. Research industries throughout the Inner Sphere begin work on decrypting its contents. Meanwhile, the Gray Death Legion has expanded from a single 'mech company to two full regiments, along with a full regiment of armor and a squadron of aerospace fighters. (The cache contains much more, but Carlyle maintains the rest to serve as a store of spares for the advanced units he is now able to field. Most of the material turned over to Marik ends up in various research institutes in FWL and FS space, such as the NAIS.)

The end comes more as an inevitability than the sudden shock of the canonical Fourth Succession War. Kurita's involvement is limited to their dispute with the Wolf Dragoons, who are slightly better prepared thanks to Joshua's canniness and are able to make their escape into FedSuns space in much better shape. The Capellan Confederation, trapped between two massive opponents, is crushed utterly, Hanse and Janos meeting on the surface of Sian to accept surrender from Candace Liao, the only survivor of the primary ruling family. Marrying Justin Allard, Candace will go on to swear fealty to Hanse, becoming Duchess of the new "Free Worlds March", covering St Ives, Tikonov, and most of the worlds that would have been part of the Federated Commonwealth. A dozen worlds are added to the Duchy of Andurien, others to Oriente, and the remainder forming a new province of the Free Worlds League. Sian itself and a few surrounding worlds are operated as a joint holding, administered jointly by the two powers.

3030's: Julian Tiepolo maneuvers Steiner and Kurita into agreeing to the creation of the Rasalhague Republic as a buffer state, the core of a peace agreement between them. He hopes to maneuver the two - now three - states into a counterbalance to the FedSuns/FreeWorlds alliance. As the secrets of the Helm Archive are slowly unlocked, Davion and Marik begin fielding new 'mechs and other combat machines equipped with the first fruits of the advanced technology. Thomas Marik's brief regency over the FWL, during Janos' incapacity, proves a shining example of what FWL industry matched with Davion's research and development institutions can do, rapidly expanding production of war material.

Lacking the working hardware examples available to the pair, Steiner, Kurita, and Rasalhague are unable to match them and lose several border worlds between 3030 and 3035. ComStar intervenes to balance the technological disparity, providing covert assistance to the research establishments in those states.

Undistracted by the Skye Rebellion, Hanse uses the DCMS' distraction by the Ronin War to launch his first wave of assaults against the Combine. Spearheaded by units equipped with the first fruits of the Helm Archive's Star League tech, the initial gains are strong. The ronin units quickly abandon their attempt to reconquer Rasalhague in light of the invasion, ending the conflict quickly. Davion's second wave, even with FWLM support, runs into much stiffer resistance, including advanced-tech units courtesy of ComStar's covert assistance to the Combine.

3035: Duncan Marik assassinates Janos and Duggan Marik, attempting to seize power with an anti-FedSuns platform. Thomas Marik, the most popular potential successor to Janos, is also killed in the attack.

What was originally a joke in Duncan's propaganda machine, talk of a unified 'Free Suns League', leads a small but vocal Parliament faction to support Kristen Marik's candidacy for the Captain-Generalship, her marriage to Ardan Sortek tying the two realms closer together. Andurien and Oriente, their influence expanded by the conquest of the Confederation, back Kristen's faction, and in the end she is victorious with minimal fighting.

The internal conflict distracts FWLM forces from their participation in the assault on the Dieron District of the Combine, however, and Kurita regains several critical worlds in that region. Others in the Benjamin district remain in Davion hands as the war grinds to a stop despite ComStar's best efforts to fan the flames. Seeing their technology advantage disappearing, Hanse and Kristen agree to end it with what they've taken for the time.

The Inner Sphere sees an uneasy peace for some time. Minor raids still take place across the Steiner/FWL and Draconis/FedSuns borders, and the Combine makes a partially-successful attempt to regain more lost worlds in the Dieron district. Major fighting seems to be over, however, for a time.

The swift end to the Ronin War leaves Rasalhague in a somewhat better position, with only a few mercenary units opting to contract-lawyer their way out of fighting, negating much of the resentment that might have appeared within the small nation.

And as ComStar's Explorer Corps works its way through the coreward Deep Periphery towards the Pentagon Worlds, the 3040's wane...

 

[Terra Novan]

Cross-posting from SB:

After graduating from the Nagelring, Victor Ian Steiner-Davion gains little angel and devil advisers on his shoulders. The angel is, for some reason, Kuritan named Kitsune, while the devil is called Alaric who speaks without contractions and uses a lot of strange words.

Click to shrink...

 

[Silversun17]

last night i reread stuck somewhere else and stuck sometime else while today i've been rereading duelist and i came accross the comment @Gideon020 about how he considered using Airmech rather then heavy gear.

how would the IS respond to air mechs the robotic armies they lead into battle? and how would an SI use them to shake things up?

 

[Radek]

Master Arminas over on SB once wrote a very good series on an alternate Inner Sphere where the Star League never fell. Unfortunately, it came to a close very soon after Terra was liberated, and further changes remain unwritten. I propose it be continued:
- There were no Dark Ages, and indeed, human space as a whole is wealthier and more advanced than ever before. But Nicholas Kerensky, now deceased Lord Protector of the Rim Worlds Republic, was not alone in his ambitions. Centuries have passed, and the time to strike may just be approaching. But how?
- As there was no tech loss, JumpShips will be able to ferry armies across the void just fine with WarShips standing guard in their eternal vigil for whatever realm they serve. Living standards across both the IS and the Periphery are higher than ever, with populations to match. A single at best medium-sized state will never be able to topple the League through force of arms... but there are other ways. And perhaps, just perhaps, those who now rule have forgotten the lessons their ancestors bought with blood...
- And so begins the campaign, one fought not on the fields of open war with Battlemechs, but in the halls of politics, with words as the weapon. Failure means certain death, victory promises untold riches and power...

 

[ecs05norway]

Yeah, CGL did a similar plotline for this year's April Fools' freebie. Have you checked out "Empires Aflame"?

The Amaris War goes pretty much as canon, but after it's over a sniper takes out Kerensky. DeChevalier stays and keeps the SLDF in place to defend and rebuild the Hegemony.

300 years later, a group of PC's misjumps in from the canonverse...

 

[consequences]

Yeah, CGL did a similar plotline for this year's April Fools' freebie. Have you checked out "Empires Aflame"?

The Amaris War goes pretty much as canon, but after it's over a sniper takes out Kerensky. DeChevalier stays and keeps the SLDF in place to defend and rebuild the Hegemony.

300 years later, a group of PC's misjumps in from the canonverse...

Click to shrink...

A brilliant alternate universe sir, with only two minor drawbacks. One, the world building was nonsensically braindead, and two, the world building was nonsensically braindead. I realize that technically this is only one drawback, but it was such a large one that I felt it needed to be mentioned twice.



Snarky Red Dwarf references notwithstanding, there are a few semi decent ideas to be mined from it, but mostly it was an enormous pile of lazy writing and painfully unfunny injokes. It was in no way worth what I paid for the dubious privilege of reading it.

 

[ecs05norway]

... wow, Cons, tell us how you REALLY feel.

 

[consequences]

... wow, Cons, tell us how you REALLY feel.

Click to shrink...

Well let's see, I could talk about idiot balls, nonsensical political decisions, failures to act in unenlightened self interest, and hideous SoD straining bullshit to make sure that Victor Not-Steiner-Davion ends up in the Erehps eht fo Cilbuper, but I think I'll go with the single most infuriatingly absurd aspect of the setting:


Star League Defense Force pattern warships after two hundred years of ongoing warfare with no tech loss or wholesale butchery of educators and educated.


*Drops the Mic*

 

[Prince Charon]

There's a thread for this over there, partly because I didn't know this thread existed until well after posting it.

Conrad Toyama is killed during the Fall of the Star League, leading to Jerome Blake's successor being someone with a vision closer to that of Blake himself. The religious trappings and mystic rituals associated with canon ComStar do not occur (and indeed, the name of the organization will not be ComStar, as that was also Toyama's idea), though the 'secret society' aspect remains. Likewise, there will be no Operation Divine Intervention, Operation Holy Shroud, or similar attacks on the recovery of the Successor States and Periphery Powers.

I think it quite likely that this change will result in a very different Inner Spere and Periphery, by the time the Wolf Dragoons arrive in 3005.

I suggest that they discover that the Periphery Powers are, on average, about as advanced as the Clans (ahead in some areas, behind in others, and varying from state to state, like the Outworlds Alliance having better WarShips and ASFs, along with new ideas called 'Pocket WarShips' and 'Monitors', or the Magistracy of Canopus effectively creating genecaste), while the Successor States are ahead of the Clans by a significant margin. Worse (from a Clanner's PoV), they're advancing faster than the Clans are. Even in communications, they're well ahead, with a Terra-based company called CommNet operating a service similar to the Diamond Sharks' ChatterWeb, but faster and higher capacity... though it seems to contain a hell of a lot of pornography (some of it involving those Canopian genecaste), and cute animal pictures and videos. Strategically, any attack by the Clans on the Inner Sphere will be a humiliating defeat for the Clan forces, and some of the Periphery Powers would themselves be a serious threat, particularly the expanding Outworlds Alliance.

The Dragoons' relatively outdated tech means that if not for their size and discipline, they would be a second-rate merc unit in the Periphery, or a third-rate unit in the Inner Sphere. They could go back to their supply cache for the more advanced equipment that they left there, but that would only help a little, particularly as they'd still have to leave the WarShips, which are illegal for private ownership. I imagine that they do a lot of pirate hunting, garrison work on less important worlds, and so forth, while buying up as many different technical books and examples of NewTech as possible (focusing on military tech, obviously), and then leave in 3009 to make their report to the Grand Council (or maybe only a few volunteers leave, due to the possibility of 'kill the bringer of bad news' syndrome).

They aren't going to be happy about this, but are also unlikely to fully believe or comprehend it, quiaff?


So, thoughts?

 

[Susano]

Here's another idea: What if certain early authors' hateboner for the Cappies didn't interfere with in-universe logic, and in the 4th Succession War the FedCom power actually go for the logical target: The Combine. Not only is that their mutual enemy, with centuries of loathing behind that enemyship, much more than what the realms feel for FWL or CC, respectively, it also is a far more logical choice if you want to conquer a corridor between the realms. Hell, in canon, the Terran Corridor only happened by accident when Ridzik's new "Tikonov Republic" decided to attack the FWL for shits and giggles. So instead, FS and LC decide to create a Dieron corridor, targetting Proserpina, Al Na'ir, Dieron, Altair, Kessel, Vega.

That as a general question: Both LC and FS focus on the DC in the 4SW, to open up a Dieron Corridor.

Now, an idea for a scenario I had based on that:

There is no canon 4SW miracle logistics. The war happens at the same glacial speed as the previous Succession Wars. Really, having the 4SW over in 4 years, with half a successor state conquered, while the previous wars had lasted decades, is just ridiculous. So, LCAF and AFFS slowly push the Combine back, but are taking losses from the CC and the FWL. Especially as the Taurians also join in the fray to attack the FS, and Michael Hasek, conspiring with Maximilian Liao, uses this as pretext to build up an own zone of authority, basically sabotaging the Capellan front.

Things eventually go sour for FWL and CC as well, though. Maximilian Liao dies, and using the characterization from the old Liao Housebook, both Candace and Romano are cold, power hungry bitches - and Romano, to boot, with a murderboner for the FWL. With the aid of Maximilian's widow (who is opposed to Candace because Candace protects Tormano, the third sibling - I swear it's all soap opera with those Liaos) she becomes the new Chancellor and since the FS front is more or less taken care of attacks the FWL.

This causes Andurien to throw a tantrum about that open failure of the Concord of Kapteyn (the loose, never really realized alliance between CC, FWL and DC in response to FedCom). With the aid of Andurien, which invades FWL border worlds, Andurien secedes, though only nabs some surrounding FWL and CC worlds instead of going on a full out offensive. The end result of that little shuffle is that Canopus keeps the conquered planets, Andurien is independent and allies (but not united) with Canopus, FWL and CC return to a truce. Candace ends up Chancellor, and Thomas Marik Captain-General, and just like in canon he can use the Andurien secession to push through his centralization efforts. Overall, the FWL still has made some few gains against the LC, and the CC some considerable gains against the FS thanks to Michael Hasek (who is eventually deposed by his son George and flees into the CC).

Meanwhile, the DC is gutted, despite ever increasing covert ComStar support. As in canon, Theodore Kurita becomes Kanrei and hence de facto ruler, but there is only so much he can do. Deciding a grand gesture is necessary, Coordinator Takashi Kurita, his father, commits seppuku, which throws the Draconian society into such a shock that Theodore as new Coordinator has basically free hand for even the most radical reforms. He seets Raselhague free (smaller than the canon FRR) to create a buffer to the LC and to concentrate on Dieron. However, as by that time FWL and CC had their falling out, the Draconian counter-offensive mainly fizzles against FedCom reinforcements

However, by that time it's somewhen after 3040s already. This was really not what Archon Katrina had in mind when she had issued her Peace Proclamation. The Davions would like to push the issue; the Lyrans really, really wouldn't. They have their corridor, trade can flow freely between Tharkad and New Avalon now, and they're thus set to dominate the Inner Sphere economically within a generation or so. War is just wasteful. That's the Lyran way

In addition, there is the issue of Hanse's and Melissia's marriage. It's a political one; it's silly to turn it into something to do with love as canon did. And the increasing political disagreement between Tharkad and New Avalon puts a strain on the marriage. Also, who will administer the Dieron territories, anyway? So, to solve all those issues, the conquered Dieron worlds are formed into a Principality of Dieron, with Melissa as Princess. She holds court in Dieron, and takes her children (or maybe all her children except Victor as the eldest) there. Per the plan for the future, as soon as Katrina, Hanse and Melissa have all died or abdicated, Victor will unite the three realms and hold his court at Dieron, which is neither Steiner nor Davion and hence a good compromise.

To end the war, there is an actual peace conference, instead of it just petering out like the 3rd. The DC has to accept the current borders, but gets to live. LC and FRR exchange some worlds, but Tamar getting decisively less out of the deal as it had wanted (as in canon, but less severely so). FS and CC also recognize the current borders. LC and FWL, the two most trade orientated and most peaceful successor states (really, a shame they had to duke it out with each other for centuries..) actually hash out a much more comprehensive agreement, which includes the establishment of two buffer zones, as both sides honestly want to avoid war now. Also, DC, CC and FWL try to reinstate the Concord of Kapteyn.

So, by dreaded 3050:
Political
-The DC is still gutted, and the smaller FRR even more of a joke than its canon counterpart.
-The CC is slightly larger than pre-war (to say nothing of canon post-war), having made gains especially in its "southern" half, and the FWL is about even.
-FedCom exists, but there is a third component to it. Also, New Avalon is frequently at odds with Tharkad and Dieron (Katrina and Melissa usually side with each other, and most of the Dieron administration is made up of Lyrans) - it is more of a political, pragmatical alliance here than a literal marriage of love.
-Two buffer zones between LC and FWL; one of them a sort of mini-Chaos March and one a functioning mini-state including the industrialized worlds of Gienah, Ford, Loric. Let's say the Wolf Dragoons use that instead of Outreach for their base of operations...
-Andurien is independent and allied with Canopus.
-The Taurians are again in open enemyship to the Suns, and likely to ally with the Capellans (though no Triple Alliance as in canon, as Canopians and Capellans are on opposite sides)

Personal
-Candace Liao is Chancellor of the CC. And not married to any silly Allards, so no Kai Allard-Liao. In the wheeling and dealing that made her Romano's successor, Romano actually gained the Prefectureship of Capella, so she is still around as well. But not quite as insane as in canon. Since Romano's lover was a random Maskirovka agent, Sun-Tzu and Kali Liao may still be born, but may have a bit of an healther upbringing.
-Hell if I know if the FWL is led by the real or like canon a fake Thomas Marik. The whole WoB "Master" arch always seemed very silly to me. But with Andurien's secession never really disputed due to the needs of other fronts, Duncan Marik could still be alive. Probably in exile somewhere... Dieron or New Avalon. Always good to have a spare Marik on your side
-Dieron could also be an exile court for some losers in Lyran power struggles. Say Frederick Steiner, also known in canon as Anastasius Focht
-And speaking of exiles, Michael Hasek is also still around spins schemes on Sian, though his agent network is no match for the Maskirovka.
-On Canopus, Kyalla Centralla's course has been completely vindicated. Therefore, she won't be toppled by her daughter Emma, and will most likely move Canopian culture away from being a pleasure circuit towards somewhat more militarism.
-If we say Victor stayed on New Avalon, then unlike canon, the association of Victor <-> FS and Katherine <-> Lyran actually makes sense. He grew up at a Feddie court, and she and the others at a Lyran court. So there could be genuine cultural differences here that would allow making Katherine more than just the most generic of evil cackling villains.

 

[Susano]

*stubbornly keeps posting*

Katherine/Katrina Steiner-Davion, 18 September 3057 (canon): "My brother, the warrior has taken his half of the Federated Commonwealth into war. I will not bleed my people to defend his actions. It is my sacred duty tow ard your welfare - the same duty my mother honoured before she was so cruelly cut down. I hereby lay claim to her mantle, though aware of the dangers inherent in doing so. Anything less would be to deny my heritage as a Steiner and my responsibility as your Archon.

Peter Steiner-Davion, 21st September 3057: "My sister, the Archon, has seceded a newly created 'Lyran Alliance' from us. I will not comment on that, but I do wonder what Archon starts her reign by mutilating Lyran territory? By abandoning an entire March to enemy or oppressive regimes? If Donegal, Skye and Tamar want secession, then let them go. But what about Sarna? I am a FedCom citizen and I am a Lyran - and I will not let this March be sacrificed in a power grab. I do not care what happens on Tharkad; I will not contest my sister - but I will contest her abandonment of the Sarna March, and everyone willing to save it is welcome in my ranks and under my protection. Let's ignore this 'Lyran Alliance', and instead continue the true Lyran Commonwealth here, in the Sarna March."

So, somehow, in 3057 Peter appears back on the scene (or maybe has never truly left it), and plays up his own supposed Lyran identity. He convinces enough Lyran units to stay in the Sarna March (which is after all part of the Lyran half of FedCom) to blunt Operation Guerrero. The former FWL planets are lost regardless, but the Cappies only manage to take maybe Sarna itself and some more systems. Meanwhile, Victor recognizes Peter as his Lyran regent based on Tikonov. So there is no Chaos March, and for all practical purposes a third March Lord in the rump FedCom during the Civil War...

 

[Prince Charon]

So, somehow, in 3057 Peter appears back on the scene (or maybe has never truly left it), and plays up his own supposed Lyran identity. He convinces enough Lyran units to stay in the Sarna March (which is after all part of the Lyran half of FedCom) to blunt Operation Guerrero. The former FWL planets are lost regardless, but the Cappies only manage to take maybe Sarna itself and some more systems. Meanwhile, Victor recognizes Peter as his Lyran regent based on Tikonov. So there is no Chaos March, and for all practical purposes a third March Lord in the rump FedCom during the Civil War...

Click to shrink...

Huh. Well, that would be different.

 

[consequences]

Eh, I wanted to respond to your first in depth hypothetical @Susano but an in depth reply would require more time sitting at a computer that can keep 8 different pdfs open than I have to spare at this time of year. Some highlights:


Calling the pace of 3SW glacial, and the prosecution of 4SW miracle logistics is ignoring pretty much the entire campaign history of Wolf's Dragoons as well as Galtor, and the way the FS was knocking over a Combine world every few months without any strain starting in 3022, despite having ten regiments of badasses tearing things up on both fronts. While the scale of 4SW was larger, it also represented an absolute full court press, and still had thirty regiments or so twiddling their thumbs near St Ives and Grand Base due to there being absolutely no transport for them to use.

The Taurians committing to any kind of attack in the 3020s results in the FS owning their jumpships and the TDF being a nostalgic memory in short order unless you seriously change things to give them an offensive aerospace arm worthy of the name, and an intelligence service that wouldn't profit greatly from Memetic SAFE's tutelage.

If you want to have Michael Hasek the Anti-Davion's scheming amount to anything, you need to change at least one, and probably several of the decision points where he shot himself in the dick, maybe even going all the way back to having a different father who wasn't completely worthless as a feudal warlord. I fully support any and all such changes, but the fact that they would be changed has to be acknowledged and accounted for when crafting the scenario.

 

[Susano]

an in depth reply would require more time sitting at a computer that can keep 8 different pdfs open than I have to spare at this time of year.

Click to shrink...

Aww That's a pity. I liked your answer, it does make me curious what you would have to say about the other points

But on the central issue of the succession war... I really have to completely disagree. The Third Succession War lasted 154 years (taking Katrina's peace proposals in 3020 as end point, even though they failed). And even so, the territorial gains on all fronts were still only about two jumps deep at best, nothing more. Meanwhile, the 4SW lasted four years and conquered half of an entire successor realm, something that had never ever been seen before - and that's unrealistic. If it had been possible, it would have been done during the about 234 years of the Succession Wars. So what if during the canon 4SW there still were regiments without transportation? Apparently, if we go by how the 3SW went, even that much transportation as was shown during the 4SW should be impossible. Either that, or pacifying worlds should not be possible that quickly. If we go by sourcebook descriptions of the succession wars, even pushes against single planets were often considered major "campaigns", after all! Like the 4372 FWL attempts to take Loric, for example, and Loric is a completely unimportant system.

Either way, for some reason, 3SW was glacial, all succession wars were in terms of astrographic gains, and there had to be a reason for that - and that reason would then also apply to 4SW. That's just... basic logic. I mean, seriously - 154 years for some border changes compared to 4 years for the conquest of half of a successor realm. Just look at that comparison! How can you then not say Stackpole 4SW completely screwed over/ignored the previous established setting description?

As for the other two points, military intelligence is not that important in the context of BT. Given the high profile nature of mech regiments, their locations are generally known, and due to aforementioned restrictions in transportation it's not like they can be moved around nilly-willy. What matters is troops on the ground. Or, well, yes, in an incoming vector through the system. But if the FS is busy elsewhere, having concentrated most its troops in the "North" (and given 5 years of preparation, 3020-25, this would be possible even with glacial logistics), then the TDF may be able to draw together enough ASF forces. Though I admit it's a problem I hadn't considered. Maybe a deal with the Outworlders? Seriously, I just wanted the Taurians to have a go at it. Make the Big Three Priph nations involved. That's less boring than isolationism. And the TC in particular has always been described as a mini-successor state, with a higher level of development than most of the Davion Periphery. But if they truly are lacking in ASF escorts, then that's annoying...

And Michael Hasek - well, yeah. He was basically a bumbling idiot in the canon novels. He would practically have to be replaced wholesale as far as his character goes. But that would be for the better. Having the heroes face bumbling idiots as enemies whose schemes are easily pushed aside is boring. So yes, consider that a change Really, I suppose you could say I'm simply going by the 3025 housebooks and ignoring the novel characterization, hence also Candace as a cold and calculating power player rather than a carebear for St Ives.

 

[Radek]

When the few survivors of clan Wolverine fled Circe and outlying teritories, they of course scouted their options. It quickly became a question of where to go. Anywhere near the clans was asking for trouble, the Inner Sphere was tearing itself apart and striking out on their own left them dangerously exposed. The Periphery, on the other hand, had possibilities. Eventually, a choice was made; they would head to the Taurian Concordat - largest and wealthiest of the Periphery states - and try to bargain with whoever currently held the reins of power.

Fast forward some two centuries, and the combined populations are thriving. Technology and living standards unmatched in the IS - and likely the clans as well, though information from that direction is either well out of date or nonexistent - are reality, but such might brings with itself divisions. What are they to do now?

Reclaiming lost worlds from the Federated Suns sounds nice in theory, but would cost a fortune to rebuild to anything approaching useful condition. Davion would take exception anyway, and the Concordat can´t really afford to deal with two powerful enemies at the same time -a situation made worse by the appearance of the Wolf Dragoons and familiar names among them. Talks of uniting the Davion and Steiner lines and their realms are not good news either.

Taurians never trusted ComStar, but couldn´t do anything about it since the secrets behind HyperPulse Generators were not something they ever discovered. Then came Wolverine, another group with reasons to distrust the new interstellar communication group -but they had HPGs of their own and knew how to build more. No one believes Terra to have forgotten the insult delivered by seizure of their assests, so significant forces must remain at home to counter the long awaited assault whenever it finally materialises.

With Terra to the galactic south, Davions to the galactic east, and the clans to the galactic north, the Concordat finds itself in the eye of the storm. Now they must chooce a path that grants them victory -or at least minimizes losses. Time grows short...

 

[consequences]

Other points include that the CC has more easily grabbable industry within reach. Takashi somehow moving lots of industry back to Pesht is a major plot point in the 3025 Kurita book, and is mostly backed up by the location of important factories. Taking Tikonov, Grand Base, Capella, and St Ives massively improves the FC's position for the long hard slog towards Luthien and all the important worlds clustered around it, or just pushing back a sufficient buffer for the Terran Corridor.


Speaking of the Terran Corridor, the reason they didn't push for it as a deliberate goal is because with the nature of BT interstellar travel it pretty much didn't matter. The fastest path with the least wasted jump ship hours is going to be through uninhabited systems anyway, and the need to secure additional systems pretty much offsets any utility from somewhat better jumpship routes through inhabited systems. It's certainly something that you might as well do if you are going to secure Altair, Dieron, and whatever other worlds are actually net positives in that region, but not any kind of critical objective.

The Lyrans also have a Lot of historically Lyran worlds to take before they should remotely declare they are done with war, and even more historically Hegemony worlds to take to shut Skye up for even a tenth of the time. They also suck, as shown by them taking about three worlds and securing a Provincial Capital that was technically flying their flag compared to the FS knocking off a dozen worlds or so in the face of much more of the DC's A list units of the time. The Davion House book may say three, but the map in the same book begs to differ, unless the DC managed to hold Tancredi 4 for quite some time while it was literally surrounded out to three jumps by Davion worlds.

Aww That's a pity. I liked your answer, it does make me curious what you would have to say about the other points

But on the central issue of the succession war... I really have to completely disagree. The Third Succession War lasted 154 years (taking Katrina's peace proposals in 3020 as end point, even though they failed). And even so, the territorial gains on all fronts were still only about two jumps deep at best, nothing more. Meanwhile, the 4SW lasted four years and conquered half of an entire successor realm, something that had never ever been seen before - and that's unrealistic. If it had been possible, it would have been done during the about 234 years of the Succession Wars. So what if during the canon 4SW there still were regiments without transportation? Apparently, if we go by how the 3SW went, even that much transportation as was shown during the 4SW should be impossible. Either that, or pacifying worlds should not be possible that quickly. If we go by sourcebook descriptions of the succession wars, even pushes against single planets were often considered major "campaigns", after all! Like the 4372 FWL attempts to take Loric, for example, and Loric is a completely unimportant system.

Either way, for some reason, 3SW was glacial, all succession wars were in terms of astrographic gains, and there had to be a reason for that - and that reason would then also apply to 4SW. That's just... basic logic. I mean, seriously - 154 years for some border changes compared to 4 years for the conquest of half of a successor realm. Just look at that comparison! How can you then not say Stackpole 4SW completely screwed over/ignored the previous established setting description?

As for the other two points, military intelligence is not that important in the context of BT. Given the high profile nature of mech regiments, their locations are generally known, and due to aforementioned restrictions in transportation it's not like they can be moved around nilly-willy. What matters is troops on the ground. Or, well, yes, in an incoming vector through the system. But if the FS is busy elsewhere, having concentrated most its troops in the "North" (and given 5 years of preparation, 3020-25, this would be possible even with glacial logistics), then the TDF may be able to draw together enough ASF forces. Though I admit it's a problem I hadn't considered. Maybe a deal with the Outworlders? Seriously, I just wanted the Taurians to have a go at it. Make the Big Three Priph nations involved. That's less boring than isolationism. And the TC in particular has always been described as a mini-successor state, with a higher level of development than most of the Davion Periphery. But if they truly are lacking in ASF escorts, then that's annoying...

And Michael Hasek - well, yeah. He was basically a bumbling idiot in the canon novels. He would practically have to be replaced wholesale as far as his character goes. But that would be for the better. Having the heroes face bumbling idiots as enemies whose schemes are easily pushed aside is boring. So yes, consider that a change Really, I suppose you could say I'm simply going by the 3025 housebooks and ignoring the novel characterization, hence also Candace as a cold and calculating power player rather than a carebear for St Ives.

Click to shrink...

The Capellans, beaten down bitches of the universe that they were managed to pony up forces equal to or greater than their massively oversized for the era Tikonov garrison twice. The Galtor Campaign involved nine regiments versus ten. If we take the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook as valid, kicking one of those massive concentrations of Crappies offworld took all of five days. You are mistaking an unwillingness to commit to decisive battle most of the time, and the back and forth nature of advances for most of 3SW with the inability to throw troops around.

The massively long front lines also make it quite difficult to make real progress, you take Valentina, the Kuritans take Galtor, you make a strike from Quentin, they take Valentina back. And as always Comstar makes sure to keep their thumb on the scales to drag everyone down.

If you look at the history of the first two succession wars, particularly the Kuritan Davion front, it's not that they were glacial, it's that in each case the side on the offensive would outrun their support in hostile territory and get cut off at the knees. This doesn't apply to 4SW, partially because of the CC just not having the troops to do more than nibble at the ankles, and partially because Hanse Davion was being played by the GM's wife.

Military intelligence isn't as critically important as it might be...against a peer opponent when each of you has sufficient depth to absorb losses. When a single RCT out of its expected position might result in you losing a tenth of your front line forces without hitting the ground, or even worse one of the DLC formations could make half of the entire TDF's fighter cover run back to the jump point while making pathetic excuses, it's a lot more important. Prior to the whole Galahad shuffle, the AFFS had ample forces in the Taurian theater to discourage anything more than ineffectual chest beating and raids against unimportant targets, and if they aren't going to hit their chosen target with All The Regiments, there's no need for them to be removed, at least without getting replaced by formations being rotated from the quarterly slobberknocker on the front lines.

A deal with the OWA intended to support a viable Taurian offensive against the FS would be...ill considered. It's too damned far for any real support, and the OWA generally likes the Suns a lot more than their other neighbor while not having any great desire to learn first hand how the FS can outnumber their entire quite respectable aerospace arm two to one by shifting five specific formations, or fifteen much less specific RCTs. The Piranha Principle only works if the piranha don't start jumping out of their little pond to bite passersby.

My disdain for Michael and his dipshit father is almost entirely rooted in the Davion and Liao House Books. While the novels made it worse by having him sabotage his relationship with the son that was the lynchpin of his plans for no good reason, most of his issue there was staying the course of a really awful series of plans while Hanse kept handing him rope. The House Book outright says that Hanse knew most if not all of what Michael was up to back in 3025.

 

[Susano]

The only "grabbable" Capellan industry complexes of note are Tikonov and St Ives. Granted, Tikonov is already surrounded to all sides and quite a notable industrial centre indeed, and St Ives nearly as much and also already directly at the border. But Grand Base is by Capellan standards rather deep in the Confederation, and Capella nearly as much. You would in fact have to conquer the whole damn Confederation to get to them, and looking at previous Succession Wars that would be a ludicrous, improbable goal. Even just carving up a limited Dieron corridor would be a very ambitious goal given the historical record.

Meanwhile, such a corridor does have its advantages. Because, no, most JumpShip traffic does not go through uninhabited systems. In fact, people are very, very hesitant to use uninhabited systems. Outside the periphery, civilian JumpShip traffic goes bascially 100% exclusively through inhabited systems, and even military JumpShip traffic will use uninhabited systems only for deep raids. Now, what you don't need, of course, is your colours actually touching on the map, so to speak. You just need to have at least one system on each side that are within 30ly of each other, and Lyrans and Feddies had that already in 3025, of course, when all house territories touched on Terra. However, that is a very narrow line of connection, hence easily prone to interruption - all Snakes and Cappies need to do is constantly harass Caph and Saffel.

Also, conquering most the Dieron District gives the FedCom a nice geographical centre, which could be used to avoid the "Tharkad or New Avalon" conundrum.

And then add to that the fact that carving out a Dieron corridor means going against the Snakes. The Lyrans have no negative feelings about the Capellans. In fact, ah, "inoffensive" as the CC has been during the Succession Wars, they probably had comparably good relationships to them. And even the Feddies don't disdain the Capellans half as much as the Draconians. But oh, the Combine. That is the archenemy of both of those houses, and if those two houses team up, it makes most sense to team up to beat down on the Combine. Especially because that is where there are so many formerly held worlds to liberate, and that from the worst of the five regimes by far. Stackpole made a point to villify the Capellans, but once again, going by the housebooks - well, the Combine comes off as almost moustache twirling evil in its social and political structure. And that will be reflected in Lyran and Feddie attitudes.

As for the Lyran willingness to continue the war, what you say about liberating former Lyran worlds would make for a good argument for a Lyran pro-war party in-universe, especially in the Tamar Pact. However, FedCom did in fact come about due to Katrina's peace proposals, and the Lyran attitude of maybe trying to win the Succession Wars economically was brought up in the Steiner housebook. Besides, if we say the Dieron corridor is a sort of arc from Kessel to Proserpina, well, then that will still be a good deal of freed former Lyran worlds. More in fact than if the CC were targeted, far more So Skye should be satisfied, really.

I suppose the logic here would go: "Okay, we pledged to unite our nations... you know, we really need a more stable and broader connection between the two in that case." "Okay, then one last war to create that Corridor - but damnit, Hanse, I sent out those peace proposals to indeed create peace." Whereas the logic in canon indeed kinda escapes me in that regard, given said origins of FedCom.

and partially because Hanse Davion was being played by the GM's wife.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's kinda my point

Fundamentally, your argument here doesn't engage mine. I don't care about the Galtor campaign or any of that. I care about a more or less coherent Battletech background history/timeline. Essentially, the core of my argument is that if it were possible to conquer half a successor realm within four years, it would already have been done. Or at least something close to it. But it never was. The worst was the beating the LC took at the beginning of the 3rd Succession War, because the Estates General had foolishly demobilized great parts of the LCAF. And even then, the Draconians only came as far as Freedom (conquered) and Skye (invasion defeated) before the Lyrans started the counter-push. And even then that "beginning of the Succession War" was nineteen years (Beginning of 3SW 2866, begin of Operation Freedom, the Lyran pushback, in 2885).

If a "canon 4SW" feat hadn't been possible back then, then by the pre-novels universe description it is not possible, plain and simple. I mean, seriously. Half a successor realms. Four years. How is that not obviously absurd?

I suppose, the problem is indeed "moved on after five days". We're talking about worlds here of which most have populations in the 100ms or even in the billions. "Moving on after five days" should just plain not be possible. Every world conquest should take years (and hm, if we apply that logic to the Clan invasion...). That would neatly explain the glacial speed of the Succession Wars. Because, while there was in fact back and forth, it was never as great as you say. Most Succession Wars front were one-directional affairs most of the time, they just moved very slowly in that direction.

As for the Taurians, while they are a periphery realm, they could in fact focus their entire military on the FedSuns. I mean, it's not like they have any other enemies to consider. The question then becomes whether that is enough, or whether even only just the FedSuns forces in the region are enough to deal with the Taurians. And that isn't so hot. Looking at the OoB, while they had many troops in the Sirdar PDZ, those were all arrayed against the Capellans. Against the Taurians they had... uh... the Warren CMM and Wylie's Coyotes on Bromhead? But the latter also only because it also borders the CC.

As for Michael Hasek, eh, I'll have to check that what the housebook says about his plans and Hanse knowing about them, then. Still, I maintain having a credible foil on New Syrtis is much more interesting.

 

[Susano]

The Clan Homeworlds, late 3040s. Due to different developments in different clans, the political situation is slightly different. When the vote for Operation Revival comes up, it isn't just the Wolves who vote against it. Operation Revival still gets a majority... but the odds in the following Trial of Refusal are much less stacked, and said Trial of Refusal is actually won by the opponents.

Enraged, the most radical Crusader clans declare that since that means there isn't a Grand Council decision either way, they're free to act as single clans, as they see fit. They will invade the Inner Sphere on their own. This causes great upheaval in the Grand Council, but no majority can be found to censure those clans.

It is only after the Khans and saKhans disperse again, that some Warden Clans stumble over the obvious solution: If the Crusader clans are free to invade the Inner Sphere on their own, the Warden clans logically are free to enter the Inner Sphere and fight the Crusaders. Since the Great Council is so fractured, most likely neither side would get censured.

The extremist Crusaders of Clans Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar, the rash Ice Hellions and the boastful Ghost Bears decide to invade the Inner Sphere on their own. The Ice Hellions also accept "volunteer" from Crusader kindraas (Fire Mandrill) and cloisters (Cloud Cobras) in their ranks, compensating for their own touman's small size. On the other side, the Nova Cats are led by their usual mystical visions to the Inner Sphere to help to defend it, the Steel Vipers by their heterodox philosophy (the Steel Vipers believe the Star League should be reconstructed, by force if necessary, but in cooperation with the Houses - if, of course, under Clan leadership) and the Hell's Horses by their Warden ideology and disadain for some of the attacking clans. There's also an alliance of warden cloisters and kindraas from Clan Cloud Cobra and Clan Fire Mandrill.

The other Clans are either too conservative to take rash actions on either side (like the Star Adders), too isolationist to care (like the Blood Spirits), opportunistically supporting both sides (Diamond Sharks and Snow Ravens help both sides to move their assets to the Inner Sphere) or too internally divided. Especially Clan Wolf falls into internal divides as, ironically, its often ignored Cursader faction is on the rise after Khan Ulfric Kerensky has died in the Trial of Refusal.

When the invasion occurs, it follows the same invasion corridors as in canon, just with the Wolves replaced by the Ice Hellions (and their invasion corridor hence being narrower), but on the "western" flank the Jade Falcons face resistance from the Steel Vipers and the Warden Cloister/Kindraa alliance, on the "eastern" flank the Smoke Jaguars face the Nova Cats, and finally the Hell's Horses try to roll up the invasion corridors from behind...

 

[Radek]

Now that would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions. The Clans are confused, the House Lords are confused and ComStar can´t make heads or tails of the situation either. Now it just needs to become a free-for-all shootout between various groups to be perfect.