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Avengers: Endgame

Space Oddity said:
They can always pull out the William Burnside Cap or US Agent to use the basic ideas there.
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The Netflix shows (which are slightly closer to the mainline MCU than Agents of SHIELD) hinted at the idea of their being "bargain" Super Soldier drugs and Iron Patriot was a thing, so it wouldn't be that wild for the government to try and replace Cap with an "official" New Captain America, only for him to go cuckoo for cocoa puffs and opening the way for Sam to "reclaim" the mantle.

Bringing back HYDRA a third time would be a bit much, but there's ways you can integrate plot elements of Secret Empire - I dunno, have NuCap be a tool of some shadowy Not!Hydra guys, or Hydra remnants, or whatever.
 
Zap Rowsdower said:
Just as long as they do that and not the Secret Empire storyline itself, because Sam is Cap now and Sam should not be a Nazi
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Of course not. The only major factor Kobik plays is she instead used as a very effective tool for NuHydra to spin a narrative around by making weak willed alt right types to become followers of NuHydra even though she is secretly a SocJus who is not at all convinced by her "father"'s propaganda and hate drivel.
 
'Secret Empire' was originally a seperate thing from Hydra. Bring them back, backing a fake Cap who claims to be Steve. Would work...
 
This is hilarious:


I'm only gonna ever think of them as "Irooney Mooney" and "The Anus" from now on. :rofl:
 
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Honestly? Like, it strips all context out of anything that happened in IW and reads like they are considering events entirely in a vacuum, devoid of the context that they occurred in.

1. Vision specifically mentions that the spear stopped him from phasing and clearly fucked him up right from go.

2. It was an ambush and then Wanda was having to defend a wounded companion against two combatants who clearly weren't slouches.

3. Said combatants clearly also can't handle counter-ambushes as Cap, Falcon and Nat's ambush wrecked their shit pretty clearly.

4. Gamora... coming up with a counter-plan while her sister's being tortured in front of her, yeah, ok. Perfectly rational plans in the face of stressful circumstances, right ok.

5. Thor on a revenge kick the whole movie, nuff said.

6. And of course, going for the typical 'I absolutely know the 14 million and 8th timeline where Strange for sure could have won on Titan.
 
chibipoe said:
6. And of course, going for the typical 'I absolutely know the 14 million and 8th timeline where Strange for sure could have won on Titan.
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I mean that's true. Strange saw 14,000,605 futures, and taking into account his script-peek future-knowledge cheats there were at least 597 where they could have easily beaten Thanos but didn't because then there'd be no second movie :V
 
"If we did this... we could instantly kill Thanos with no trouble whatsoever. But, it would be such an anticlimax, what with all the buildup Thanos has had, that the fans and movie goers will be incredibly disappointed and irritated. That will result in a drop in sales and brand loyalty, which might very well result in the end of the Marvel Cinematic Universe itself. What future is there in which we defeat Thanos, but with pizazz?"

...

Honestly, I just figured Thanos had some sort of protection against instant kills like portal slicing, either due to weird titan toughness or just using his infinity gauntlet.
 
Sir Bill said:
"If we did this... we could instantly kill Thanos with no trouble whatsoever. But, it would be such an anticlimax, what with all the buildup Thanos has had, that the fans and movie goers will be incredibly disappointed and irritated. That will result in a drop in sales and brand loyalty, which might very well result in the end of the Marvel Cinematic Universe itself. What future is there in which we defeat Thanos, but with pizazz?"

...

Honestly, I just figured Thanos had some sort of protection against instant kills like portal slicing, either due to weird titan toughness or just using his infinity gauntlet.
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Pretty much. I mean. We established that he was super-durable in IW when everything done to him and the most they managed was a scratch. If slicing his arm off was a viable tactic, obviously Strange would have done it. But nooooo, can't be.
 
chibipoe said:
Pretty much. I mean. We established that he was super-durable in IW when everything done to him and the most they managed was a scratch. If slicing his arm off was a viable tactic, obviously Strange would have done it. But nooooo, can't be.
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I mean, they probably could have shoved his arm in a portal and closed it, but then the movie would be over. The whole point of the movie is "Thanos gets the Infinity Stones, Snap's half the universe out of existence", so I'm scratching my head as to how "The heroes fail to stop the plot" is a criticism.

Just toss this as evidence number 19572019485-B in the pile of "avenues a story chose not to explore are not plot holes, people are dumb".
 
chibipoe said:
Pretty much. I mean. We established that he was super-durable in IW when everything done to him and the most they managed was a scratch. If slicing his arm off was a viable tactic, obviously Strange would have done it. But nooooo, can't be.
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Arthur Frayn said:
I mean, they probably could have shoved his arm in a portal and closed it, but then the movie would be over. The whole point of the movie is "Thanos gets the Infinity Stones, Snap's half the universe out of existence", so I'm scratching my head as to how "The heroes fail to stop the plot" is a criticism.

Just toss this as evidence number 19572019485-B in the pile of "avenues a story chose not to explore are not plot holes, people are dumb".
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If there was a movie where a character was being menaced by an axe-wielding psycho and there was a loaded gun lying on the table right next to them, but they ran out the front door and got chopped to pieces instead, would you just kinda shrug your shoulders and say "well he was probably gonna turn out to be bulletproof anyway"?

When a character has ready access to a potential solution to their problem so obvious the casual audience member can figure it out and then doesn't even think to try it just makes them look like an idiot. And Strange in particular has the added handicap of having seen the future over 14 million times far enough that he's already seen the climax of Endgame and automatically knows exactly where to go to gather up everyone's allies and get them all to the battlefield, therefore making it even more ridiculous that he really couldn't find one other winstate.
 
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Arthur Frayn said:
I mean, they probably could have shoved his arm in a portal and closed it, but then the movie would be over. The whole point of the movie is "Thanos gets the Infinity Stones, Snap's half the universe out of existence", so I'm scratching my head as to how "The heroes fail to stop the plot" is a criticism.
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Word of god isn't worth much, but I'm pretty sure one of the Russo's went on the record with "Thanos is too tough to cut with portals," which is both silly and awesome.

(though I guess if his skin is immune to the kind of blunt force we see exerted on him, his bones are probably even crazier...)
 
The problem isn't that they chose a particular narrative route, the problem is that they specifically call attention to the fact that they did so by claiming it to be the only possible way. If they didn't do the "Strange checks timelines" thing it'd just be a "characters aren't omniscient Spacebattles Competent geniuses and make realistic mistakes" thing, but by making it "this is totally the only possible way they could win, they checked", it turns from a criticism of characters making less than prophetically-perfect decisions into a criticism of the narrative itself railroading them .

All non-interactive stories railroad their characters by the nature of the medium, but once you actively call attention to the train tracks it becomes hard to avoid criticism of the route because its gone from part of the setup of the story to part of the story itself.
 
ZerbanDaGreat said:
If there was a movie where a character was being menaced by an axe-wielding psycho and there was a loaded gun lying on the table right next to them, but they ran out the front door and got chopped to pieces instead, would you just kinda shrug your shoulders and say "well he was probably gonna turn out to be bulletproof anyway"?

When a character has ready access to a potential solution to their problem so obvious the casual audience member can figure it out and then doesn't even think to try it just makes them look like an idiot. And Strange in particular has the added handicap of having seen the future over 14 million times far enough that he's already seen the climax of Endgame and automatically knows exactly where to go to gather up everyone's allies and get them all to the battlefield, therefore making it even more ridiculous that he really couldn't find one other winstate.
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That isn't even a valid comparison. In Strange's case, we know he checked the future, ergo, anything that he didn't try is clearly something that he knew didn't work.
 
chibipoe said:
That isn't even a valid comparison. In Strange's case, we know he checked the future, ergo, anything that he didn't try is clearly something that he knew didn't work.
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Which is why it gets called a plot hole rather than characters not trying something. It brings every idea every viewer gets and turns it from a what-if could-have-been into a formal "we effectively tried that, it didn't work", which feels like a plot hole in the context of things that logically should have.
 
One of the biggest criticisms is how no one challenged Thanos philosophy, which could have been outdone by saying "if you kill half of all life, that means you'll have half as much food left over and it's a zero sum game" or "if you kill half of all life, then it might lead to other life depending on it dying too." I mean, it's really easy to come up with an argument why Thanos's Idea is idiotic.

Or, point out that since he isn't didn't to die to the snap, he's failed his own philosophy.
 
Muhkat Lomorki said:
One of the biggest criticisms is how no one challenged Thanos philosophy, which could have been outdone by saying "if you kill half of all life, that means you'll have half as much food left over and it's a zero sum game" or "if you kill half of all life, then it might lead to other life depending on it dying too." I mean, it's really easy to come up with an argument why Thanos's Idea is idiotic.

Or, point out that since he isn't didn't to die to the snap, he's failed his own philosophy.
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I mean, he's not the rational titan. Engaging him in a debate wouldn't really do anything, cause he's nuts.
 
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Muhkat Lomorki said:
One of the biggest criticisms is how no one challenged Thanos philosophy, which could have been outdone by saying "if you kill half of all life, that means you'll have half as much food left over and it's a zero sum game" or "if you kill half of all life, then it might lead to other life depending on it dying too." I mean, it's really easy to come up with an argument why Thanos's Idea is idiotic.
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The Nazi philosophy is also riddled with holes and contradictions, and can also be defeated fairly easily in debate with practice. The time to engage said debate is not on the beaches of Normandy.

Like, everytime I see someone bring up the the "challenge his philosophy" thing, all that tells me is that that person would, with a decent argument, be perfectly willing to commit genocide. His plan is horrific regardless of the underlying logic, that should go without question.
 
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