Yeah, I second this.
Umm, wow. I really hope we don't have to fight these guys.
... we are totally going to have to fight these guys right?
Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest
- Thread starter Photomajig
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The good news is, I don't think so! The bad news, because apparently they all died in this battle! Or at least got absolutely gutted.
"The only blemish on your plan is the behavior of the King's Garde des Loupes. The Wolf Guard flagrantly ignore your orders and get in the way of their allies as they charge into the enemy nymphs, evidently eager to claim some glory by besting their counterparts across the field.
It's a little touch inspired by the real historical battle. Your father was not best pleased with Gorun Fontanet's reckless charge across the field at Basly, which he held had left a gap in the Arnése lines and paved the way for their downfall. But in this case, their antics are not enough to ruin the triumph of your plan."
Red Rationalist
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Well, hurray to us. That was a shockingly quick battle to be honest, really demonstrates how quickly an exposed flank can crumble without vigilance. So, guess we get to skip the plan making considering their force was routed. Aside from this, are there any lessons to be learned?
Hmm, we couldn't really judge the impact of artillery, though I will note cavalry can withstand some punishment. It's not great for them, but our cuirassiers accumulated only got 3-4 stress from the charge action last turn. Casulties there weren't great, though elvish casulties are somewhat different. Overall review of the non-critical rolls:
Total non-critical stress directly from artillery fire against professional units: 10 over 5 instances of fire. This isn't all that high, showing a low effectivness of dispersed fire without a lot of luck.
1) So, artillery isn't in itself all that great at building up stress without concentrating fire. This is a nice change of pace, as artillery does not dominate the battlefield but is a good way of creating weak points or controlling movement. Assuming old rules regarding artillery ambushes hold true (only once when they open fire from a position) I have to note that ambush are actually more advantageous for creating a second morale check, meaning fire, reposition and fire might very well be better at eroding enemy morale, especially against units in cover. Should be considered in the tool box, maybe we should dive our own artillery into a cover and fire mode, where part of the artillery covers against moving units and the other lines a better shot up. Didn't really consider that one.
2) Just how scary was the charge?
Total stress for the enemy: 19
2)Yeah, this charge benefits a lot from being able to route the strong human division via destruction of adj. artillery. Still, even with a counterattack the stress suffered is fairly mild. If we ignore the outlier in form of the static Elv. Harq., we still end up with 10 stress, double what we suffer. Provided the stress check on chargers is also implemented this will end up much more even, but I will not in general that a charge depends on momentum to survive. Due to the sheer number of melee attacks, charges that don't build up protective momentum die. This battle actually demonstrated the brutal efficiency of one way to build momentum, the annihilation of screens and raid into the backline. On different battlefields, an ambush on the enemy, long preparatory artillery bombardment, the annihilation of an one charge or dominance during skirmishers might play a similar role.
To be honest, these changes also provide an incentive for having a less experienced meat shield alongside veterans. Lower level units create less negative momentum and can be used to absorb shock from enemy artillery and fire, creating only one simple morale shock for the more experienced veteran core behind them. I will have to math this out, but a formation like the roman triplex acies for our charge column might very well be beneficial, if we resign ourselves to a protective meat shield layer. Have to think more about this, there is the matter of actually making room for the charge.
3) Positioning and control of the battlefield are more important, and sides are generally able to shift units quickly if not threatened. We went from forest based deployment to main positions to shifting our units to a crucial charge + exploitation attack in only 3 turns. In this regard, I think cavalry is critical in denying an enemy the ability to form a march column outside of our artillery range via move+ready charge, with enemy artillery and cavalry vital in securing room to move infantry. Honestly, where a unit can be is just as important as evaluating where they are in regards to positions.
Honestly, the mechanics did accomplish what we wanted. We have quicker, decisive battles that take at most 10 rounds. This (fictional) battle was probably an outlier in terms of minimum length, but that's fair enough considering we gained a decisive advantage at the start of T3. A lot of emphasis on positioning and picking the right moment for a charge, rather than artillery duels. And doing a bit of homework on daurstein upfront, the map can be crossed in 5 turns by artillery, 3 infantry marching and bracing. I like the new style of battle, we did a lot to accomplish the design goals.
Hmm, we couldn't really judge the impact of artillery, though I will note cavalry can withstand some punishment. It's not great for them, but our cuirassiers accumulated only got 3-4 stress from the charge action last turn. Casulties there weren't great, though elvish casulties are somewhat different. Overall review of the non-critical rolls:
Total non-critical stress directly from artillery fire against professional units: 10 over 5 instances of fire. This isn't all that high, showing a low effectivness of dispersed fire without a lot of luck.
2) Just how scary was the charge?
Total stress for the enemy: 19
To be honest, these changes also provide an incentive for having a less experienced meat shield alongside veterans. Lower level units create less negative momentum and can be used to absorb shock from enemy artillery and fire, creating only one simple morale shock for the more experienced veteran core behind them. I will have to math this out, but a formation like the roman triplex acies for our charge column might very well be beneficial, if we resign ourselves to a protective meat shield layer. Have to think more about this, there is the matter of actually making room for the charge.
3) Positioning and control of the battlefield are more important, and sides are generally able to shift units quickly if not threatened. We went from forest based deployment to main positions to shifting our units to a crucial charge + exploitation attack in only 3 turns. In this regard, I think cavalry is critical in denying an enemy the ability to form a march column outside of our artillery range via move+ready charge, with enemy artillery and cavalry vital in securing room to move infantry. Honestly, where a unit can be is just as important as evaluating where they are in regards to positions.
Honestly, the mechanics did accomplish what we wanted. We have quicker, decisive battles that take at most 10 rounds. This (fictional) battle was probably an outlier in terms of minimum length, but that's fair enough considering we gained a decisive advantage at the start of T3. A lot of emphasis on positioning and picking the right moment for a charge, rather than artillery duels. And doing a bit of homework on daurstein upfront, the map can be crossed in 5 turns by artillery, 3 infantry marching and bracing. I like the new style of battle, we did a lot to accomplish the design goals.
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- Location
- Derna
One weird trick the historians won't tell you: you can't be pressed into leading a rag-tag Republican militia against the elite palace guard if you just never go to the capital!
I know it's tempting! You might see all of the big historical and social upheavals happening in the capital city and think "I should be there, I should be shaping the future of the nation, that's where I'd be most useful". But remember what it says on the map: There Be Werewolves!
You might get a letter saying that you should go to the capital to receive some kind of honor or a promotion or whatever, but you know what? There Be Werewolves! Find an excuse! Pretend the letter was lost in transit!
Unfortunately the elite unit still exists, and is still loyal to the King actually. They are mentioned to have dispersed the angry mob that tried to storm the King's apartments in the capital after Raka released the King's incriminating letters.
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Red Rationalist
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Fuck. Well, fortunately elite units only really shine in an army supported by others on their own they are mostly just capable of doing heroic last stands before crumbling. If I was a smart royalist werewolf, I would probably try to flee across the border and get hired by a royalist emigree considering how the wind is blowing. If they stay, they are just going to put up very stiff resistance until they get overwhelmed by the national guard.
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If I were the national guard, I'd try a whiff of grapeshot. Put cannons on the top of a roof and just fucking fire down into the werewolves.
Red Rationalist
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Well, if they are polite enough to grant you battle in open terrain. If they entrench themselves in some urban center or old fortification however, there is no way to dislodge them without a tremendous blood bath. And considering they are in Fantasy! Paris, there should be plenty of those areas. Even if they flee to the countryside, they would be terrifying in guerillia warfare.
As one additional comment on the new mechanics: overall I like Momentum, but I do think there should be a cap on it. We had +15 Momentum at the end there, which feels a bit excessive. I think @Red Rationalist also mentioned this at some point.
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Hmm, so, how much will we have to "dress" our position, based on where we were on Round 2 of Daurstein under different rules?
Red Rationalist
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Yeah, that was my concern too. Completely uncapped momentum becomes a snowball effect that prevents a clever player from even catching up while covering up egregious mistakes. My idea after seeing it in action would be base cap, potentially modified by morale to give that army stat more relevance. Could still be fairly high around 10-ish without making it impossible to turn the tide.
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One possibility might be that maximum Momentum is 5+(Morale over 5, for a total max of 10.)
Alternatively, you could have it so that Morale ALSO caps how far the momentum can swing against you, though with both sides having Morale that might not quite work.
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- SEAsia
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- Thou
The courier never arrived, sadly. Clearly, he was intercepted by werewolves!
You know how it is with dogs and mailmen.
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Actually, you know what might be interesting? If "Drill" had some connection with negative momentum. Maybe, like, you get a certain number of Drill points that cancel out some Momentum loss... until they're overwhelmed, and then things start swinging against you.
This would represent how a well-drilled and well-trained army can take losses or setbacks on the chin without spiralling, but that if they keep up obviously even the best-drilled army in the world cannot save you.
This would represent how a well-drilled and well-trained army can take losses or setbacks on the chin without spiralling, but that if they keep up obviously even the best-drilled army in the world cannot save you.
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This would also create different sorts of 'builds' even though obviously the hypothetical 10 Morale, 10 Drill is just plain the best.
A high-Drill but average Morale army would be able to eat up reverses, and keep things even, but wouldn't have quite as much in the way of "beast mode" to access in terms of racking up the kills. It'd instead use its Drill and presumably the skill that comes with it to reduce losses and keep the whole battle tilted in their favor as long as possible, even if it means being cautious and judicious with overcommitting, since of course you can't just get infinite Momentum.
An average-Drill but High Morale army would have less in the way of ability to cancel out Momentum losses, and so if they didn't seize a strong lead, they might just start falling behind... but if they DO seize a lead, they can power forward with that lead much further than the average Morale army, and so the goal would be to gain an advantage and ruthlessly exploit it, perhaps even to the point of recklessness.
Obviously a High Morale, High Drill army could have its cake and eat it too, taking wild swings and using Drill to eat it up and using that to gain a big and lasting advantage... but, like, that's in fact what a super-motivated, super-well-trained army should be able to do if led well.
A high-Drill but average Morale army would be able to eat up reverses, and keep things even, but wouldn't have quite as much in the way of "beast mode" to access in terms of racking up the kills. It'd instead use its Drill and presumably the skill that comes with it to reduce losses and keep the whole battle tilted in their favor as long as possible, even if it means being cautious and judicious with overcommitting, since of course you can't just get infinite Momentum.
An average-Drill but High Morale army would have less in the way of ability to cancel out Momentum losses, and so if they didn't seize a strong lead, they might just start falling behind... but if they DO seize a lead, they can power forward with that lead much further than the average Morale army, and so the goal would be to gain an advantage and ruthlessly exploit it, perhaps even to the point of recklessness.
Obviously a High Morale, High Drill army could have its cake and eat it too, taking wild swings and using Drill to eat it up and using that to gain a big and lasting advantage... but, like, that's in fact what a super-motivated, super-well-trained army should be able to do if led well.
- Location
- Finland
(...) How does one lose such a battle? The King had grown up in medieval Arné, in an age of glorious knights and personal combats. He had cultivated the household cuirassier regiments according to this image and disdained the need for artillery and even his own household infantry. This perhaps explains his hurry to get to Basly at the cost of the Arnése artillery largely falling behind, and his willingness to engage in battle with only a single battery of royal siege guns at his back.
The Ivernians began the battle by advancing to the edge of town. Lord Deywr made the choice to send his harquebusiers, under the mac Moraigh brothers, to the south in an aggressive skirmishing maneuver. Along with them advanced the halfling light infantry, led by the ill-omened mac Áeda, who would play a vital role later in the fight. The King responded by ordering the cuirassiers arrayed at his right flank to disperse them, which they did in short order. This early success seemed a good omen for the battle to come, but nothing could have been more wrong.
The King now ordered a general infantry advance across the line, somewhat ineffectually supported by the siege artillery. The two lines exchanged fire at 300 paces to little apparent effect. Ivernian artillery was given ample time to disrupt the Arnése line as it stood out in the open. The next step was to be a massed charge across the gap into the Ivernian line, but even as they fired, the Ivernians were packing up and retreating deeper into the town. This both made the terrain more difficult for the Arnése attack and increased the distance that they would have to cross on the charge; however, the King was committed, and the rigid aristocratic hierarchy of the Royal Arnése Army made it difficult to relay accurate intelligence of the battlefield to him.
In an ill-advised move, the Garde des Loupes, the King's elite loup-garou regiment, outpaced the rest of the Arnése line as it advanced. Rather than join in on the firefight, the loup-garou chareed directly into the Ivernian Glade Guards, eager for glory. The temperamental loup-garou leader Gorun Fontanet was known for his reckless, though often effective, independent maneuvers on the field. This time, the entire army would suffer for it.
Despite this dangerous overextension, the King elected to hold his cuirassiers in reserve, waiting for the opportunity for a glorious final charge. This inactivity also allowed the Ivernians to plug the gap created in the south by the defeat of the Ivernian light cavalry as their harquebusiers regrouped and the Ivernian infantry withdrew.
The Arnése infantry now charged the Ivernian line. The increased distance and path uphill into narrow streets proved exhausting for the charging infantry. The Ivernians were still somewhat out of position, however, and several regiments wavered or broke entirely on impact. This momentum was turned on its head as the King's loup-garou, having taken significant casualties, broke and ran from the end of the line. They would not effectively contribute it again.
The Ivernians continud to give way, too, drawing the Arnése attack ever deeper into town. The battlefield had now narrowed to only some 300 metres, which made it difficult to bring the full weight of Arnése numbers to bear. Ivernian artillery was repositioning as well, but the battery under ap Owain kept up fire and punished those Arnése units which now milled in frustration behind the line.
The casualties were beginning to build up on both sides. The King did want to take his cavalry to the fray, but the tight confines of the promontory and the difficult terrain of the town made it impossible to utilize them effectively. The Ivernian harquebusiers were now operating freely south of the town, performing hit-and-run attacks on the rear of the Arnése infantry. However, the King's subordinate commanders were unwilling to chase them, both out of tactical considerations (there was no infantry screen to protect the Arnése artillery and baggage train, as all forces were committed into the town) and out of personal rivalries which hindered efficient operations (no one wanted to be left behind as the others sought glory).
This continued inactivity cost the Arnése infantry dearly. Though they broke several of their Ivernian counterparts, the flight of the Wolf Guard had badly unnerved the troops. With the backline savaged by artillery and cavalry raids, and unable to take advantage of their small victories, the Arnése morale soon collapsed. The line turned to run and mass panic spread through the ranks.
The King commanded his remaining cavalry into a frontal charge to turn the tide. He would personally lead this charge, clad in gleaming plate like a knight of old. As a plan, this was not a disastrous one: it represented a last chance to regain the momentum and push through the disordered Ivernian line. However, the conditions for the cavalry charge had not become any better. Though able to catch and defeat the enemy harquebusiers for a second time, the attack into the town failed utterly. Focused artillery fire and a dug-in enemy shattered the pride of the Arnése heavy cavalry with shocking casualties.
There remained some hope of the Arnése infantry regrouping at the treeline once more, but this was dashed by the appearance of the Ivernian skirmisher infantry among the Arnése artillery and subsequently its supply depot. The retreating Arnése infantry were shocked to observe enemy fighters in their rear. The enemy now seemed to be everywhere. Soon enough, the remaining Arnése cavalry broke and ran as well. They were pursued by the dregs of the Ivernian harquebusiers, with the King himself falling in the chaotic retreat; this was the last straw, and ended any hope of an Arnése recovery. (...)
-The Royal Blunder: a Look at the Many Mishaps of the Battle of Basly-sur-Mer (1662), essay originally posted on the Suffisant-Vélocité forums ARY 312 by user DurandDurand
I've mentioned this before, but elves would be the perfect meatshields since they can come back after dying.
Ok, gotta say, I really like this idea of Drill being able to offset Momentum loss and low Morale capping Momentum gain. It would allow different army "builds" as you said, and it makes sense that a well-drilled army can absorb more losses without being discouraged.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
They're one of the minority Kin. Probably not as rare as Devils given that Devils have "hard to recruit" as their main drawback, but not as common as the five main King (Elves, Humans, Hobgoblins, Halflings, Dwarves.)
Here's what the lore has to say about them
Here's what the lore has to say about them
So their population tends to be quite fragmented, which is likely to make recruitment on our scale rather difficult. Feel like to recruit proper units you probably want the nation-scale recruitment apparatus to draw on a large area.
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Oh shit
The lore has e x p a n d e d.
Edit: Oh wow
The church is kind of horrid… at least, to devils and humans.
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Looks like the King's issue was oddly enough NOT using his Cuirassiers effectively to keep up the pressure and kill the enemy artillery/cut the infantry line off from retreat into the city. We saw a gap that he didn't and more or less correctly exploited it, team killing elves aside.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Yep. Also looking at the lifespans involved.
Elves are immortal in theory and in practice ~350-400 years, Hobgoblins 120-160 (though in practice it's much lower because of deaths in warfare), Humans IRL lifespans (I think in the early 1800s the average lifespan was around 30-40 years), Halflings 60 years, and Dwarves 100+ years.
Meanwhile (female) Nymphs are 30-40 years, Loup-Garou are ~50 years, Cephids are 50 years on average but if living/fighting extensively on dry land can be as low as 10 years.
Elves are immortal in theory and in practice ~350-400 years, Hobgoblins 120-160 (though in practice it's much lower because of deaths in warfare), Humans IRL lifespans (I think in the early 1800s the average lifespan was around 30-40 years), Halflings 60 years, and Dwarves 100+ years.
Meanwhile (female) Nymphs are 30-40 years, Loup-Garou are ~50 years, Cephids are 50 years on average but if living/fighting extensively on dry land can be as low as 10 years.
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...I don't feel like it needs to be said, but no it isn't?
Or rather, to the extent that that's even remotely accurate, it's about people dying in their childhood, something that we obviously don't give a shit about in the context of raising troops.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Wikipedia puts the average human life expectancy in the early 1800s at ~33 in Europe, so yeah, that's accurate. Skewed heavily by infant mortality rates yes, but accurate for the time period.
- Location
- Finland
The numbers in the Lore post are not really considering infant mortality. Take them more as "if you survive early childhood, how long are you likely to live". Which for humans is not radically different from present-day - people in Arné will generally live to their 60s-70s, at least.