Would this not have all our Western infantry on hills?

I dont think the top right unit is on a hill, as in the tile isnt a hill.

@Photomajig can you clarify if that tile is a hill?


On whether the plan would work... I think we would still win? But winning this battle isnt difficult and I dont see how it reduces casualties or makes sure we capture large amounts of his troops.


If you do want to capture the Rotholz turm you definitely want to have cavalry secure it. Enemy cavalry can be on it on turn 2, their infantry on turn 3, the Hartillery is set up to fire starting turn 4
 
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Right, except that wolf holes deal 1d100-Spotting. Meaning that the ordinary elven hussar takes a 1d100-20 from wolf holes in open terrain. The cover isn't all that great. If the enemy actually commits to a charge, there is a decent chance the artillery dies.
It's not just about the damage, the extra movement cost is very likely to stop the charge outright, unless the charge was done from very close by. And we are not exactly planning on allowing the enemy to stand in an open field in front of our cavalry, and then charge, are we?
 
It's not just about the damage, the extra movement cost is very likely to stop the charge outright, unless the charge was done from very close by.
No, it isn't. Hussar have 9 movement and would likely only commit to a hit and run, meaning movement reserved for the retreat. The area in front of the guns consists of open plains.
if von Trotha decidedes to slowly crawl his artillery forward in the middle corridor, we shell him the entire way, threathen and skirmish with cavalry and once he reaches medium range he will realise that he is shooting at -60 while his own units are exposed at -20. Once he breaks we crash upon him with cavalry, which pick off the weakened enemy units the whole long way back north.
I will point out he has +10 offensive genius, 2 (+30) units and a +20 artillery. You're picking a long-range fight with an enemy that has more artillery than we have, while relying on some hits being high enough to attrition his army before he gets close. If he rolls, say, 2 defensive geniuses he uses for screening, long-term attrition wouldn't work out. He also isn't obligated to have infantry in front of his own artillery, a mobile cavalry screen that intercepts our cavalry is also possible nor obligated to keep his infantry in medium range during the bombardment. Your picking a fighting style that is both munition intensive, drawn out while nailing our own infantry to the lower corner of the map. If we're unlucky and roll consistently below average, this plan doesn't work due to the tight margins for inflicting damage. Bad luck can hamper any plan, but yours is particularly reliant on very, very tight damage margins being possible and nothing unexpected happening.
 
No, it isn't. Hussar have 9 movement and would likely only commit to a hit and run, meaning movement reserved for the retreat. The area in front of the guns consists of open plains.
Hmm, maybe they could pull it off, although it would be suicide mission for the cavalry, not something I would expect from him. Did we not agree before the battle that Von Trotha is most likely only using his cavalry to screen?

What about the idea of using our own cavalry to intercept charges? I do think that should work to protect the artillery.


View: https://imgur.com/a/cbzXP12

This formation should be pretty safe from cavalry, I do think. Blue arrows are ready charges, any enemy cavalry charging this way gets intercepted.
 
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Hmm, maybe they could pull it off, although it would be suicide mission for the cavalry, not something I would expect from him. Did we not agree before the battle that Von Trotha is most likely only using his cavalry to screen?
It's best to not leave this completely up to chance, considering he absorbed rather aggressive royalist cavalry. I think a concerted charge is unlikely, but not impossible.
What about the idea of using our own cavalry to intercept charges? I do think that should work to protect the artillery.
Well, maybe. Our cavalry needs to take a very roundabout way around the traps, but it might work out. Even with this, your plan divides our forces into 2 isolated parts: If Trotha sets up firing positions in the centre, he can take one on individually coming from the north, relying on hills to protect his dwarven infantry from your artillery. And he can set up a killzone in the middle, stopping reinforcements. I will also add that your plan doesn't include a place for the HQ.
 
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Even with this, your plan divides our forces into 2 isolated parts: If Trotha sets up firing positions in the centre, he can take one on individually coming from the north, relying on hills to protect his dwarven infantry from your artillery. And he can set up a killzone in the middle, stopping reinforcements. I will also add that your plan doesn't include a place for the HQ.
I don't really see, to be honest. Our artillery makes the center a complete killzone, while the hills hide us from the center on Von Trotha's side of the map. His infantry is inferior to ours, and the hilly terrain prevents him from focusing his artilley efficiently on the front.

I think that to do what you are proposing, he would have to conectrate all his forces either east or west, which would leave nothing preventing us from counter-attacking.
 
I don't really see, to be honest. Our artillery makes the center a complete killzone, while the hills hide us from the center on Von Trotha's side of the map. His infantry is inferior to ours, and the hilly terrain prevents him from focusing his artilley efficiently on the front.

I think that to do what you are proposing, he would have to conectrate all his forces either east or west, which would leave nothing preventing us from counter-attacking.
Not necessarily. Dwarves are pretty tough in a 1vs1, so there are issues with winning against if you lack fire support. And your artillery is only one tile behind the hill, so it's in immediate danger if the enemy breaks trough.
 
I will point out he has +10 offensive genius, 2 (+30) units and a +20 artillery. You're picking a long-range fight with an enemy that has more artillery than we have, while relying on some hits being high enough to attrition his army before he gets close. If he rolls, say, 2 defensive geniuses he uses for screening, long-term attrition wouldn't work out. He also isn't obligated to have infantry in front of his own artillery, a mobile cavalry screen that intercepts our cavalry is also possible nor obligated to keep his infantry in medium range during the bombardment. Your picking a fighting style that is both munition intensive, drawn out while nailing our own infantry to the lower corner of the map. If we're unlucky and roll consistently below average, this plan doesn't work due to the tight margins for inflicting damage. Bad luck can hamper any plan, but yours is particularly reliant on very, very tight damage margins being possible and nothing unexpected happening.

Look, I usually find your input very valuable, but I dont understand why you consistently have the effects of sample size turned around. A large sample size means that luck gets less relevant. If you flip four coins, you can have outliers where you have 4 heads. If you flip 70 coins, you will have variance, but your result will be somewhere around the middle, because large occurances average out.

Additionally, I dont see how my plan is somehow extra suspectible to sudden bouts of bad luck. In your plan, if von Trotha rolls an instakill he kills our Horse Artillery. That is possible in mine for the Trotha charge too, but the artillery crawl forward doesnt hae that risk - even if an enemy instakills one of our regiments, they dont have the units to exploit it, both because they arent in position and because they are already weakened from the crawl forward.

Concerning the Artillery: von Trothas best Artillery hits at +30. That means he hits our weakest unit for -30 per turn. On the other hand, our weakest artilleries, the elven artilleries hit his units, who are forced to stand in open plains for -10 per turn.

So, in addittion to having already weakened them in their crawl forward, we are also stronger in shooting them ourselves.

What happens if he doesnt actually screen his artillery? The artillery dies of course. We feign an charge against their cavalry, their cavalry charges our cavalry, our artillery shoots their charging cavalry, repeat until the cavalry is dead, then charge the artillery.


If he rolls 2 defensive geniuses for screening, we shoot all the other units that arent defensive geniuses, i dont see how thats a big obstacle.


I do not understand where there are tight margins for damage, I do not care where the damage is distributed or how it rolls, i only care about damaging him so much that he cannot screen his artillery, causing him to lose.


Let me try one last time to explain why i think spending munitions are a good thing.

Each spent munition is a precious point of XP for our artillery, whose level is extremely strong. Let us assume that we "waste" 50 points of Munition during a battle, getting our artilleries 50 extra points of XP. 50 XP is enough for everyone to upgrade except for elite level, but elite level also gets the trait, so is worth more than a normal level. This means that we would have spent 50 munitions to upgrade our artillery by one.

I consider that absolutely worth it - thats like 75 extra casualties done by that artillery every battle in the future, it allows stuff that requires high level artillery, as we see here each +10 can completely shift how a unit can be used and it gets them quicker to the coveted elite status, where they get their extra trait.

Where you say that something wastes ammunition and that is bad, I see a unit wasting ammunitions, racking up xp and think thats good



I don't really see, to be honest. Our artillery makes the center a complete killzone, while the hills hide us from the center on Von Trotha's side of the map. His infantry is inferior to ours, and the hilly terrain prevents him from focusing his artilley efficiently on the front.

I think that to do what you are proposing, he would have to conectrate all his forces either east or west, which would leave nothing preventing us from counter-attacking.

He can focus his troops on the west, where he can support over the Kirschenwald while we cannot hit his charging units because the artillery is blocked by hills
 
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Look, I usually find your input very valuable, but I dont understand why you consistently have the effects of sample size turned around. A large sample size means that luck gets less relevant. If you flip four coins, you can have outliers where you have 4 heads. If you flip 70 coins, you will have variance, but your result will be somewhere around the middle, because large occurances average out.
Regarding this specifically: Yes, large sample sizes resemble the average more. Large sample sizes also include more outliers, since a larger sample size includes more chances for the unlikely. In our case, those outliers are critical hits. There is a chance, however slight, that a shot kills an officer. There is a chance one unit is instantly routed. There is a chance on unit takes double the cohesion damage. These outliers have long term effects on the battle. I don't want to run our luck longer than it necessary.
In your plan, if von Trotha rolls an instakill he kills our Horse Artillery
[/QUOTE]
Ehm, how? Even supposing a direct fire, that is a 1d100-20 (range)-50 (counterbattery)-40 (fortified). Totalling a -110. So even assuming a Nat 100 from an experienced unit, that ends up with at most 20 hits and fewer casulties. He could instantly rout, though I don't see why he would be firing at the -110 unit.

What happens if he doesnt actually screen his artillery? The artillery dies of course. We feign an charge against their cavalry, their cavalry charges our cavalry, our artillery shoots their charging cavalry, repeat until the cavalry is dead, then charge the artillery.
Ok, what if that charge doesn't work out? What if more of our cavalry is routed? Or what if he sets up artillery halfway and our cavalry charges into heavy fire? There are things that can go wrong, especially if you leave the initiative completely in enemy hands.
If he rolls 2 defensive geniuses for screening, we shoot all the other units that arent defensive geniuses, i dont see how thats a big obstacle.
What if the other units aren't in range and the def. geniuses screen
?
Let me try one last time to explain why i think spending munitions are a good thing.
Save yourself the effort, I know your argument. You assume XP is more valueable than munitions, and don't consider having a stockpile to be necessary operational investment.
 
He can focus his troops on the west, where he can support over the Kirschenwald while we cannot hit his charging units because the artillery is blocked by hills
If he does that, we can push in the East and take the central hills at Rutholz, making his troops in the West very much exposed to artillery from that flank. It's not like he will be able to conceal him concentrating all his troops in the West.

Also, ironically enough, if he sets up his artillery to support his Western push, we can abandon the hills and retreat behind them, to positions that his artillery cannot target. We don't have to defend the hills against an artillery-heavy foe, we can retreat behind them as well.

Although Photomajig moving that one hills south does weaken my planned Western position. It's a shame, since I am not at all keen on either of the other proposed plans.
 
Hmm, let me take a look at the theory of a frontal assault on the Rotholz fortress.

The weakpoint is the 200th, who are offensive geniuses, but whose damage output doesnt really matter when on Trotha can just replace routed units.

So it would be placed on the Hill, with breastworks, so they would have -30 Melee cover and -60 Ranged Cover.

We will assume that von Trotha shoots it with 4 units, the +30, +30, +20, +10 (off genius) artilleries from medium range, while the other 3 artilleries are somewhere else covering flanks or whatever.

That means the 200th gets 2,84 cohesion damage average from Artillery each turn.

Additionally, it gets charged by two enemy units each turn(anything routing gets replaced by units behind them). We assume it braces every turn because thats the highest value play and it also means we dont have to determine if enemies are charging or meleeing lol.

That means that, as nearly the entire enemy infantry core is trained, the 200th gets 2 attacks of 1d100-30 at 7 wounding each turn.

Thats an damage output against them of 2,74 cohesion damage per turn.

Thats a combined 5,62 damage each turn.

So the 200th routs in three turns...

Did I make a mistake somewhere here?
 
Hmm, let me take a look at the theory of a frontal assault on the Rotholz fortress.

The weakpoint is the 200th, who are offensive geniuses, but whose damage output doesnt really matter when on Trotha can just replace routed units.

So it would be placed on the Hill, with breastworks, so they would have -30 Melee cover and -60 Ranged Cover.

We will assume that von Trotha shoots it with 4 units, the +30, +30, +20, +10 (off genius) artilleries from medium range, while the other 3 artilleries are somewhere else covering flanks or whatever.

That means the 200th gets 2,84 cohesion damage average from Artillery each turn.

Additionally, it gets charged by two enemy units each turn(anything routing gets replaced by units behind them). We assume it braces every turn because thats the highest value play and it also means we dont have to determine if enemies are charging or meleeing lol.

That means that, as nearly the entire enemy infantry core is trained, the 200th gets 2 attacks of 1d100-30 at 7 wounding each turn.

Thats an damage output against them of 2,74 cohesion damage per turn.

Thats a combined 5,62 damage each turn.

So the 200th routs in three turns...

Did I make a mistake somewhere here?

Just to clear this up, you're not counting the advantage that any unit gets if they do Rout the enemy, right?
 
-[X] Defenses: Rampart E Of Sarnscheid [blocks substantial parts of the enemy firing line, with everything south of Sarnscheid being unable to shoot at the cavalry]
I don't really understand this part. Wouldn't an additional hill to the east of Sarnscheid just provide the enemy with another vantage point to put artillery on to bombard us?

Additional Breastworks seem like they'd be much more useful, particularly since your plan has a good amount of our infantry out on the plains to cover our artillery.
 
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I don't really understand this part. Wouldn't an additional hill to the east of Sarnscheid just provide the enemy with another vantage point to put artillery on to bombard us?

The point, I assume, is that it would block putting artillery on the fortified hill, which would be blocked out from LOS. They could put some artillery on the new hill, but it'd be less well-defended and stick out more.
 
The weakpoint is the 200th, who are offensive geniuses, but whose damage output doesnt really matter when on Trotha can just replace routed units.

So it would be placed on the Hill, with breastworks, so they would have -30 Melee cover and -60 Ranged Cover.
Yeah, I'm not putting the 200th on the side. I want them in the forest.
Thats a combined 5,62 damage each turn.

So the 200th routs in three turns...
So, including just the artillery attacks on the open front: I'm assuming the 5th Horse Artillery fires in close range, with the 10th and one of the elven ones supporting. This amounts to 67% of 16+ damage, nearly enough to rout a unit. Adding bracing attacks during the melee (2d100*6/100), this jumps up to 69% for 21. Using high cohesion units like dwarves or humans, Trotha has a total of 102. He would literally run out of units after 5 turns of frontal assault.
 
Regarding this specifically: Yes, large sample sizes resemble the average more. Large sample sizes also include more outliers, since a larger sample size includes more chances for the unlikely. In our case, those outliers are critical hits. There is a chance, however slight, that a shot kills an officer. There is a chance one unit is instantly routed. There is a chance on unit takes double the cohesion damage. These outliers have long term effects on the battle. I don't want to run our luck longer than it necessary

But how would I have more defensive rolls than you? You have a lot of rolls each turn, 4 for his artillery, 6 for each attacking infantry.

And higher damage outputs also have higher chances to crit.

Two attacks dealing 30 damage have nearly the same crit chance as one attack dealing 60, cause the higher attack opens up more doubles that can be bit

Ehm, how? Even supposing a direct fire, that is a 1d100-20 (range)-50 (counterbattery)-40 (fortified). Totalling a -110. So even assuming a Nat 100 from an experienced unit, that ends up with at most 20 hits and fewer casulties. He could instantly rout, though I don't see why he would be firing at the -110 unit.

I mean that he instakills a screening infantry which allows his units to charge into the cover and hit the HArtillery.


Ok, what if that charge doesn't work out? What if more of our cavalry is routed? Or what if he sets up artillery halfway and our cavalry charges into heavy fire? There are things that can go wrong, especially if you leave the initiative completely in enemy hands

It's a feigned charge? How does it not work out? We move in his directions, move back once his cavalry charges and shoot his cavalry. If his cavalry chases all the ways to us we blow up his entire cavalry corps up next turn.

We know if he sets up artillery. He has no screens, so we see his artillery and we can see them stop to set up.

@Photomajig if we see an artillery unit and it begins to set up, do we get that info?

Save yourself the effort, I know your argument. You assume XP is more valueable than munitions, and don't consider having a stockpile to be necessary operational investment.

I do want a stockpile, I just plan on buying more of them if we run low(have less munitions than is needed for 50 turns of continuous fire)

What if the other units aren't in range and the def. geniuses screen
?

He has 7 artillery and 2 Def geniuses? He doesn't have enough to screen
 
Just to clear this up, you're not counting the advantage that any unit gets if they do Rout the enemy, right?

I didn't, that's +3 cohesion assuming a rout every turn, getting to 4 turns.

Yeah, I'm not putting the 200th on the side. I want them in the forest.

Ah, that makes sense. In which case, with your handy calculations, why the hell would Von Trotha choose to attack frontally?

He can make these calculations too
 
But how would I have more defensive rolls than you? You have a lot of rolls each turn, 4 for his artillery, 6 for each attacking infantry.
You plan to slowly erode the enemy via long ranged battle. If this turns into a long range duel, there are 6 rolls for the artillery on both sides. We have more defensive roles with that, since the impact of every roll is quite low, meaning you roll more of them when turtling in a long range duel.
I don't really understand this part. Wouldn't an additional hill to the east of Sarnscheid just provide the enemy with another vantage point to put artillery on to bombard us?
Actually, no. That hill in particular is slow to reach (7 turns), difficult to screen since you have to put infantry into open fields. It also blocks another, more acessible hill from being used for effective bombardment and limits the usefulness of Sarnscheid. When you see the rampart, don't think "cover", think of the LoS shadow it creates.
 
Ok, to explain the reasoning for my plans a bit better: I think attempting to have any meaningful presence in the center is not a good idea, since the center is wide open with no cover. This means that either side, us or him, can pretty easily turn the center into a killbox.

But what about placing artillery in the center? The big problem is that the center has few hills, with the hills in the center being too far back, unless we choose to completely turtle up. Placing artillery on hills is very important, as otherwise it cannot fire over the forests.

This is another reason why I propose having a presence on both sides of the road: there is actually not many good hills for artillery on Von Trotha's side of the map. I have marked the decent spots I can see on the map below. Most of the other hills on his side of the map have hilly terrain in fron of them, limiting their usefulness as artillery positions.

View: https://imgur.com/a/ZAawx6d

Thus, if we, as in @Red Rationalist's plan, go all in on the Eastern side and try to defend Rotholz, we allow Von Trotha to setup his artillery on the Western side of the road and bombard us effeciently. If we setup defensively in the center, as per @NSchwerte's plan, we give him all the good artillery positions including Rotholz. Honestly, I really do feel we need to maintain some presence on both sides of the road, in order to pressure him and not allow his artillery to be placed in the optimal positions. If we do this right, we can hopefully put him in a situation where he does not have enough room to place all his artillery on hilly terrain where they can fire.
 
Ok, to explain the reasoning for my plans a bit better: I think attempting to have any meaningful presence in the center is not a good idea, since the center is wide open with no cover. This means that either side, us or him, can pretty easily turn the center into a killbox.

But what about placing artillery in the center? The big problem is that the center has few hills, with the hills in the center being too far back, unless we choose to completely turtle up. Placing artillery on hills is very important, as otherwise it cannot fire over the forests.

This is another reason why I propose having a presence on both sides of the road: there is actually not many good hills for artillery on Von Trotha's side of the map. I have marked the decent spots I can see on the map below. Most of the other hills on his side of the map have hilly terrain in fron of them, limiting their usefulness as artillery positions.

View: https://imgur.com/a/ZAawx6d

Thus, if we, as in @Red Rationalist's plan, go all in on the Eastern side and try to defend Rotholz, we allow Von Trotha to setup his artillery on the Western side of the road and bombard us effeciently. If we setup defensively in the center, as per @NSchwerte's plan, we give him all the good artillery positions including Rotholz. Honestly, I really do feel we need to maintain some presence on both sides of the road, in order to pressure him and not allow his artillery to be placed in the optimal positions. If we do this right, we can hopefully put him in a situation where he does not have enough room to place all his artillery on hilly terrain where they can fire.


All of these hills you marked couldn't hit Kinzberg at medium range and getting long range fire positions is not hard


You plan to slowly erode the enemy via long ranged battle. If this turns into a long range duel, there are 6 rolls for the artillery on both sides. We have more defensive roles with that, since the impact of every roll is quite low, meaning you roll more of them when turtling in a long range duel.

Low damage rolls have also low chances for crits, while high damage rolls have higher chances for crits.

If you roll with -80, your only crit roll is 11. If you roll -60, your crit rolls are 11, 22 and 33.

Also, von Trotha does decide to do a lengthy bombardment of the Rotholz Position, you are in the exact same position as Kinzberg.

Actually, no. That hill in particular is slow to reach (7 turns), difficult to screen since you have to put infantry into open fields. It also blocks another, more acessible hill from being used for effective bombardment and limits the usefulness of Sarnscheid. When you see the rampart, don't think "cover", think of the LoS shadow it creates.

Tbh I don't really understand how it limites the effectivness of sarnscheid. Sarnscheid can still hit the Rotholz Position and got a better position for its screen.
 
The point, I assume, is that it would block putting artillery on the fortified hill, which would be blocked out from LOS. They could put some artillery on the new hill, but it'd be less well-defended and stick out more.
Actually, no. That hill in particular is slow to reach (7 turns), difficult to screen since you have to put infantry into open fields. It also blocks another, more acessible hill from being used for effective bombardment and limits the usefulness of Sarnscheid. When you see the rampart, don't think "cover", think of the LoS shadow it creates.
But wouldn't they still be able to reach the fortified hill by just coming in from the northwest across the plains? It's a long walk for Field Artillery sure, but any march within effective range would be a long walk, and von Trotha has a unit of Horse Artillery.

Also, I thought artillery doesn't have to worry about LoS when it comes to shooting. And even if they do, couldn't they see through to the southeast perfectly fine?

I'd really like a map to simulate what the point of it seems to be, because right now I'm not getting it at all.
 
Ah, that makes sense. In which case, with your handy calculations, why the hell would Von Trotha choose to attack frontally?
The other option is going in the forest, which he would also likely loose. I do like how the criticism of my forward position now is "That position is too defensible, he will never commit to a frontal assault". He attacks someplace, and do this artillery forces that will likely not be the forest, in which he has a hard time bringing his beloved artillery support. Plus his artillery cover for Scharnscheid will exhaust if he does nothing.
Thus, if we, as in @Red Rationalist's plan, go all in on the Eastern side and try to defend Rotholz, we allow Von Trotha to setup his artillery on the Western side of the road and bombard us effeciently.
No, that wouldn't work out He can't safely set up in the west while Rotholz is shooting, the attrition taken there would be tremendous. And he's in constant danger of a cavalry charge if his infantry cover fails. Trust me, my plan doesn't give him 15 turns to put his field artillery on the western hills, he will exhaust his infantry setting up the place. You're focussing on placing infantry in cover and place the artillery around that instead of controlling the battlespace via artillery. You split your forces among our flanks, and that makes them deeply vulnerable.
 
The other option is going in the forest, which he would also likely loose. I do like how the criticism of my forward position now is "That position is too defensible, he will never commit to a frontal assault". He attacks someplace, and do this artillery forces that will likely not be the forest, in which he has a hard time bringing his beloved artillery support. Plus his artillery cover for Scharnscheid will exhaust if he does nothing.

That has been my criticism for like 5 pages?

Where I absolutely do not understand why you think Von Trotha would be so stupid as to do the frontal assault
 
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