Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

[Red Rationalist]

In my opinion, von Trothas best use of his cavalry would be defensive anyway. We have learnt that trying to simply charge forward without a plan is not going to give results - using your cavalry to screen and comitting once the enemy is weakened is exactly how you should use it

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The information we have doesn't say "keep them in reserve until the decisive moment and screen or attack" , it says "only uses them to screen". This is suboptimal when you have a pretty good cavalry corps. I also think you're overextrapolating from Brutet. Just because we did a number of bad charges doesn't mean charging in general is a bad idea. Keep in mind that the next battle won't be fought in the mud, which massivly buffs the abilities of cavalry, especially for lancers.

The rains have started to die out, though there are still sporadic showers. Unless another storm hits, the ground should be dry in a matter of days. For better or for worse.

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I'm almost tempted to do both drill and extra rations, to get us to 10/5, honestly.

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While the high cohesion is tempting, we need firepower more than anything else. The enemy consists of dwarves, meaning we aren't going to outdo their cohesion. No, we need heavy firepower against them, ideally close support from an experienced offensive genius near the front.

 

[The Laurent]

The information we have doesn't say "keep them in reserve until the decisive moment and screen or attack" , it says "only uses them to screen". This is suboptimal when you have a pretty good cavalry corps. I also think you're overextrapolating from Brutet. Just because we did a number of bad charges doesn't mean charging in general is a bad idea. Keep in mind that the next battle won't be fought in the mud, which massivly buffs the abilities of cavalry, especially for lancers.

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While the high cohesion is tempting, we need firepower more than anything else. The enemy consists of dwarves, meaning we aren't going to outdo their cohesion. No, we need heavy firepower against them, ideally close support from an experienced offensive genius near the front.

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I do think we should do at least one drill action. Look, Red Rationalist, I hate to relitigate Brutet with you, but us getting a good drill roll (wherein the tables become more and more stacked in our favor or against our favor depending on how high or low our Drill is) helped us win the battle. I don't think we're going to surpass the Drill of the Norn's anytime soon, but even 1 (or 2) Drill would be pretty vital, even if we forego the Morale 10 just about now.

 

[Red Rationalist]

My takeaway from the replacements math is that yeah, I don't think buying horse artillery for Granger is the right move here. Mobile firepower is definitely important but these plans have us going into a defensive battle, probably a medium range gunnery duel on terrain of our choice. It's just a marginal or negligible gain in that situation, especially when compared to raising whole new regiments. And if we lose or stalemate, we'll have left ourselves without any banked influence to reconstitute the army.

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I disagree strongly with mobile firepower being useless on the defensive. Looking at Brutet, we did nothing but defend with horse artillery. Mobile artillery can be used to set up strongpoints, forcing the enemy to suffer continous attrition on the way towards the actual defensive position. Furthermore, horse artillery also has the ability to fire close range, amounting to a +20 bonus, even better for our offensive genius.

In short, horse artillery creates a defensive onion of artillery firepower since they can fire near the front rather than just at the deployment zone, they get greater firepower against units charging against the infantry line and have a greater chance at a medium range stealth ambush. Large numbers of field artillery suffer if the enemy stays out of range, getting a second horse artillery unit would make this decision more costly.

I do think we should do at least one drill action. Look, Red Rationalist, I hate to relitigate Brutet with you, but us getting a good drill roll (wherein the tables become more and more stacked in our favor or against our favor depending on how high or low our Drill is) helped us win the battle. I don't think we're going to surpass the Drill of the Norn's anytime soon, but even 1 (or 2) Drill would be pretty vital, even if we forego the Morale 10 just about now.

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Believe me, I would love getting a god drill value. But our actions are limited, and more drill currently means missing out on artillery units. Brutet was lightening in a bottle (mud+ forward positioning), getting a +1 is unlikely to give us a crucial advantage this round. But regardless how bad we roll during the events, more artillery will be vital to the coming battle. Drill is a long-term investment, not one for the coming battle against a superior enemy. If we get more action later, I'm fully in favour of drilling to our heart's content.

 

[NSchwerte]

I do think we should do at least one drill action. Look, Red Rationalist, I hate to relitigate Brutet with you, but us getting a good drill roll (wherein the tables become more and more stacked in our favor or against our favor depending on how high or low our Drill is) helped us win the battle. I don't think we're going to surpass the Drill of the Norn's anytime soon, but even 1 (or 2) Drill would be pretty vital, even if we forego the Morale 10 just about now.

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I really don't want to gamble that a +2 on the Drill table will be worth losing 1/5th of our Potential firepower

 

[NSchwerte]

. I also think you're overextrapolating from Brutet. Just because we did a number of bad charges doesn't mean charging in general is a bad idea. Keep in mind that the next battle won't be fought in the mud, which massivly buffs the abilities of cavalry, especially for lancers

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I don't think we will be able to change each others minds here, we'll see who is correct as we get more experience(though I consider both Mauvais and brutet to be battles that convinced me of that standpoint)

Large numbers of field artillery suffer if the enemy stays out of range, getting a second horse artillery unit would make this decision more costly.

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This is an offensive benefit though, on the defensive forcing the enemy to stay out of range would be a victory

But I do agree that Hartilley can be just as useful on the defensive just for the initial manoeuvre bonus.

Additionally, something not mentioned, Hartilley that is forward deployed can retreat backwards with the infantry, a manoeuvre that would allow us to temporarily lessen the enemy pressure and get out of their firing arc in defense.

TBH an army with a strong Hartillery stack deploying forward and retreating back under friendly field artillery cover and out of enemy range on engagement would be devastating

 

[Red Rationalist]

I don't think we will be able to change each others minds here, we'll see who is correct as we get more experience(though I consider both Mauvais and brutet to be battles that convinced me of that standpoint)

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My position is also that cavalry charges need to be very carefully considered, especially with idle artillery. Cavalry needs commitment, hit from an angle the enemy doesn't expect and create a decisive advantage, rather than the piecemeal system we had before. But that doesn't mean they should be kept for the pursuit and screening, Mauvais is an applicable example of cavalry charges winning the day against the enemy line. I don't know your position, but feel free to point out what flaws you see in my approach.

This is an offensive benefit though, on the defensive forcing the enemy to stay out of range would be a victory

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My point is that defending field artillery on it's own has the weakpoint of allowing the enemy to position themselves just out of range, enabling preparation for strong enemy forward position and charge with tougher infantry. Horse artillery continuously weakens the enemy, forcing them to either give up ground or commit to the countercharge. This is especially devastating if the enemy expects us to charge AND we stay on the defensive, paving the ground for an eventual cunterattack.

But I do agree that Hartilley can be just as useful on the defensive just for the initial manoeuvre bonus.

Additionally, something not mentioned, Hartilley that is forward deployed can retreat backwards with the infantry, a manoeuvre that would allow us to temporarily lessen the enemy pressure and get out of their firing arc in defense.

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Nice to see we are on the same page regarding hartillery on the defense. And yeah, defense in depth on the tactical level is pretty strong, especially against an enemy who relies on superior fire via field artillery.

I would also note that we really need a plan on what to do if both sides defend. Brutet has shown us what happens if we try to rely on artillery attrition alone, and that was with us having superior firepower. We need preparations for a counterattack as part of the defense.

 

[natruska]

I disagree strongly with mobile firepower being useless on the defensive. Looking at Brutet, we did nothing but defend with horse artillery. Mobile artillery can be used to set up strongpoints, forcing the enemy to suffer continous attrition on the way towards the actual defensive position. Furthermore, horse artillery also has the ability to fire close range, amounting to a +20 bonus, even better for our offensive genius.

In short, horse artillery creates a defensive onion of artillery firepower since they can fire near the front rather than just at the deployment zone, they get greater firepower against units charging against the infantry line and have a greater chance at a medium range stealth ambush. Large numbers of field artillery suffer if the enemy stays out of range, getting a second horse artillery unit would make this decision more costly.

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I'm not saying that Horse Artillery is useless on the defense, just that it isn't worth 250 influence more than Field Artillery. For starters, it's not a blanket +20 to attacks. How many times did the 5th fire at close range at Brutet? Three-ish? That's a lot, yeah, but Brutet was the perfect showcase for horse artillery, a meeting engagement with infantry wrestling in the mud from the start. Presumably our next battle will not be that. Von Trotha staying at a distance will mean a much higher proportion of medium/long range shots, closing the gap between Field and Horse. There's also the (very minor) note of wounding - that extra point of wounding on Field is a couple extra casualties when firing at Dwarves.

Finally, the movement question. Being able to fight far from the deployment zone is only critical if you want to fight far from the deployment zone. We can't know what the map will look like ahead of time but I imagine it'll be less Brutet and more Mauvais Plain. If our positioning/deployment's really good, hell, we might even be able to manage close support fire from Field Artillery.

 

[Photomajig]

@Photomajig : Question regarding the captured Falke rifles: Could we requip 16th Halflings as a free action in our plan, or would this take an action on it's own? I really want the best skirmishers we could get.

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You don't need to spend an action on that, you can just direct them to switch. They do need the March to have at least 1 Army Action in it, though; on a forced march this wouldn't work.

@Photomajig Oh, also an important question: Would there be differences in resupply between the different causes of actions? I'm assuming we would get a resupply column at Daurstein since it's a controlled city right at the border, but there are probably issues in resupplying in the forced march. I'm not sure if the column could catch up with us in case of the normal march.

Also, how would the specialized manpower split look? Would we get trained artillery crews with future resupply, considering the new manpower split? We do have more field artillery pieces than we want to make use of.

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There's no resupply convoy coming that you know of. You've got your own baggage train and its stocks, plus whatever you can scrounge up and requisition from the region. The Convention generally provides a supply convoy and manpower at the start of a campaign, the rest is up to you. A campaign in this sense means weeks to months, mind, so you won't be left unsupported forever.

But this present offensive into Norn you are carrying on your own shoulders. As it is you're successfully living off the land and the spoils of war of your victories - Napoleon would be proud.

That said, you raise a good point about the forced march. Your supply convoy lagging behind should be a real concern. Right now that kind of disorganisation is modeled through the Drill Event rolls, which forced marching does kind of penalize as your Drill decreases. I'll think about if there should be something more as well.

Your supply column would stay with you without issue on a normal march.

You can expect future manpower supply to be mostly infantry with some cavalry and artillery gunners. The Convention will see what they think you need and what they should prioritize and confiscate your excess guns for the Revolution in a heartbeat.

 

[NSchwerte]

You don't need to spend an action on that, you can just direct them to switch. They do need the March to have at least 1 Army Action in it, though; on a forced march this wouldn't work.



There's no resupply convoy coming that you know of. You've got your own baggage train and its stocks, plus whatever you can scrounge up and requisition from the region. The Convention generally provides a supply convoy and manpower at the start of a campaign, the rest is up to you. A campaign in this sense means weeks to months, mind, so you won't be left unsupported forever.

But this present offensive into Norn you are carrying on your own shoulders. As it is you're successfully living off the land and the spoils of war of your victories - Napoleon would be proud.

That said, you raise a good point about the forced march. Your supply convoy lagging behind should be a real concern. Right now that kind of disorganisation is modeled through the Drill Event rolls, which forced marching does kind of penalize as your Drill decreases. I'll think about if there should be something more as well.

Your supply column would stay with you without issue on a normal march.

You can expect future manpower supply to be mostly infantry with some cavalry and artillery gunners. The Convention will see what they think you need and what they should prioritize and confiscate your excess guns for the Revolution in a heartbeat.

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Can we form regiments with troops we request in the same turn?

 

[Photomajig]

Can we form regiments with troops we request in the same turn?

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Unfortunately not.

 

[NSchwerte]

Unfortunately not.

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And the reserve troops we currently have are all infantry?

 

[Photomajig]

And the reserve troops we currently have are all infantry?

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Ah, I forgot to divide them up. I'll edit in the exact numbers when I get home, but I'd say that its mostly infantry, but some dozens of cavalry and arty too.

 

[Red Rationalist]

You don't need to spend an action on that, you can just direct them to switch. They do need the March to have at least 1 Army Action in it, though; on a forced march this wouldn't work.

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Thank you, I will include the order in that.

There's no resupply convoy coming that you know of. You've got your own baggage train and its stocks, plus whatever you can scrounge up and requisition from the region. The Convention generally provides a supply convoy and manpower at the start of a campaign, the rest is up to you. A campaign in this sense means weeks to months, mind, so you won't be left unsupported forever.

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Ok, that's important information. Bit of shame we don't get recruits more regularly but that might also improve as the revolution gets it's shit more together.

But this present offensive into Norn you are carrying on your own shoulders. As it is you're successfully living off the land and the spoils of war of your victories - Napoleon would be proud.

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We did beat up Wachenheim for a lot of lunch money, so no worries there.

That said, you raise a good point about the forced march. Your supply convoy lagging behind should be a real concern. Right now that kind of disorganisation is modeled through the Drill Event rolls, which forced marching does kind of penalize as your Drill decreases. I'll think about if there should be something more as well.

Your supply column would stay with you without issue on a normal march.

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Yeah, a transition to more supply management also makes sense. So far we had very short campaigns inside our borders, but a more regular system of reinforcement and resupply as our mission switches away from being purely defensive also makes sense instead of continous drill loosing. The dice have been conspiring hard to keep drill low, so switching to a model of loosing resupply plus casulties from exhaustion, something we can manage more is good.

 

[CMY187]

I'm enjoying the debates and (civil) arguments here.

It's like Durand is holding a council and her officers are discussing amongst themselves on what is to be done next.

 

[Red Rationalist]

For starters, it's not a blanket +20 to attacks. How many times did the 5th fire at close range at Brutet? Three-ish?

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It also continously fired at targets that would have been in long range for conventional artillery. Effectivly a +30 bonus to attacks for 6-7 attacks units at the street, which is quite decent. A lot of our field artillery couldn't hit anything in their medium range for much of the battle.

That's a lot, yeah, but Brutet was the perfect showcase for horse artillery, a meeting engagement with infantry wrestling in the mud from the start. Presumably our next battle will not be that.

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I'm not sure if Brutet was especially good for horse artillery. It featured a long battle with clear lines of sight to the enemy, plus a position that needed to be taken with the mud. Horse artillery shines with advancing and maneuver, something that didn't happen in the mud. It was a long battle with a lot of potshots against an enemy we forced into an assault via close fire support. Not saying the 5th didn't benefit, but a lot of our field artillery had also good opportunity to shine by taking a lot of shots at slowly advancing infantry.

Von Trotha staying at a distance will mean a much higher proportion of medium/long range shots, closing the gap between Field and Horse.

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It's not clear if he will stay at a distance. Depends on the battlefield, who attacks who and his read on us. If he wants to take Daurstein, he might try to charge into us. Also, staying at a distance would be worse with more horse artillery creating the firepower onion.

Finally, the movement question. Being able to fight far from the deployment zone is only critical if you want to fight far from the deployment zone. We can't know what the map will look like ahead of time but I imagine it'll be less Brutet and more Mauvais Plain. If our positioning/deployment's really good, hell, we might even be able to manage close support fire from Field Artillery.

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Both our plans involve staying at Daurstein, which is mentioned to be hilly terrain. If we defend here, I would expect lots of hill formations breaking up chunks of the countyside, possible a decent amount of forest. So probably not a battle in flat terrain. Might be bad for field artillery, since you can't concentrate them and have to disperse due to line of fire breaking.

Unfortunately the question of training field artillery now has been rendered moot by the word of the QM (can't requisition and train on the same turn), but I enjoyed our discussion.

 

[Pinniped]

I think staying at Daurstein is likely the best option. But based on the current discussion, it really sounds like we would benefit greatly from more time to await the arrival of the 6th and to found and train new regiments...

I wonder, could we send out some of our troops to try to slow down Von Trotha? @Photomajig, what is your stance on write-ins? Would sending, for example, a Unit of cavalry out with orders to sabotage and slow down Von Trotha's army be a feasible action? How is the crossing across the Raoille? Is there a bridge that could feasibly be destroyed by a smaller task force?

 

[Red Rationalist]

I wonder, could we send out some of our troops to try to slow down Von Trotha? @Photomajig, what is your stance on write-ins? Would sending, for example, a Unit of cavalry out with orders to sabotage and slow down Von Trotha's army be a feasible action? How is the crossing across the Raoille? Is there a bridge that could feasibly be destroyed by a smaller task force?

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Related to this: Is sending our cavalry on a scouting mission up the road alright? I'm not the most well-read on napeolonic warfare, but that sounds in line with the way cavalry was used at the time.

 

[Red Rationalist]

Okay, updating my plan with new information. Since we can't requisition artillery crews and found new regiments at the some turn, this changes things. I don't think we could realistically found 2 artillery units next turn, so I'm content with just founding one and achieving rough parity. Our superior mobility can hopefully be leveraged into a victory, we can't wait 3 turns for a march.

-[] Draft Plan: Forking Trotha via Shopping Spree
-[] Stay at Daurstein (3 Actions)
-[] Mentor Veka Bonheur
-[] Intense drill +2 Drill, -2d100 Casulties
-[] Recruit locals: ??? [probably humans for the new artillery]
-[] Requisition Horse Artillery : 10th Hum Art
-[] Requisition experienced recruits: ??? Artillery (since we have a number artillery recruits, I'm buying enough to get us the next regiment the following turn)
-[] Reequip 16th Half: Falke Rifle, Retrain

Influence afterwards: 285-250-??? = ~0?

I'm also using the third option for another intensive drill. Yes, the infantry is understrength and would suffer. However, superior drill raises our base cohesion and gets us better drill event, plus we want to operate offensively very soon. Time is short, and our army is large enough to suck up some losses. A base cohesion of 15 is nothing to sneeze at, our infantry would operate as budget dwarves. In short, this plan leverages infantry strength and mobility for a battle at Daurstein, while preparing roughly equivalent fire power for the march afterwards.

 

[natruska]

(Disclaimer: not Photomajig)

Our cavalry will be scouting the immediate area without special orders since that's one of their standard duties, acting as the 'whiskers' of the army so it isn't stumbling around blind, but sending them off as far as the Raoille bridge to raid or observe would probably be a very unconventional move. Napoleonic cavalry generally didn't operate with total independence in the way that, say, American Civil War cavalry did. Moving more than a day or two away from the main army would leave both elements unable to support each other.

Plus if there's any kind of force garrisoning the bridge they might not be able to overcome it without infantry and artillery support, at which point, well, you're basically just dividing the army. Valid, but it has its drawbacks.

 

[Pinniped]

Napoleonic cavalry generally didn't operate with total independence in the way that, say, American Civil War cavalry did

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Fair point, but was this change due to better technology or a change in doctrine? We certainly don't have to follow the conventions of Napoleonic warfare, this is a fantasy world and in character Durand has proven herself to be an unconventional commander.

Plus if there's any kind of force garrisoning the bridge they might not be able to overcome it without infantry and artillery support, at which point, well, you're basically just dividing the army.

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This is definitely true, if we were to send cavalry out, it should be with express orders to not pick fights they are not absolutely sure they can win.

Valid, but it has its drawbacks.

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Absolutely, no option should be without its risks.

 

[Photomajig]

I think staying at Daurstein is likely the best option. But based on the current discussion, it really sounds like we would benefit greatly from more time to await the arrival of the 6th and to found and train new regiments...

I wonder, could we send out some of our troops to try to slow down Von Trotha? @Photomajig, what is your stance on write-ins? Would sending, for example, a Unit of cavalry out with orders to sabotage and slow down Von Trotha's army be a feasible action? How is the crossing across the Raoille? Is there a bridge that could feasibly be destroyed by a smaller task force?

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(Disclaimer: not Photomajig)

Our cavalry will be scouting the immediate area without special orders since that's one of their standard duties, acting as the 'whiskers' of the army so it isn't stumbling around blind, but sending them off as far as the Raoille bridge to raid or observe would probably be a very unconventional move. Napoleonic cavalry generally didn't operate with total independence in the way that, say, American Civil War cavalry did. Moving more than a day or two away from the main army would leave both elements unable to support each other.

Plus if there's any kind of force garrisoning the bridge they might not be able to overcome it without infantry and artillery support, at which point, well, you're basically just dividing the army. Valid, but it has its drawbacks.

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You can send off a part of your force as an independent formation, yes. Choose a CO and give as precise orders as you like.

Scouting happens constantly without your input, so you don't need to explicitly send scouting forces. Other objectives are perfectly fine, of course. I will say that you won't be destroying any bridges without artillery, preferably siege artillery, and artillery is not going to be very fast on such a trip. But your field artillery could probably do it with enough time, or then a whole lot of sacrificial munitions.

Write-ins are always fine.

 

[Red Rationalist]

@Photomajig Sorry for bugging you, but there is another important question: How does the local recruitment mechanic work with specialization? I'm assuming nearly everybody can serve as infantry with a week of training, but cavalry and artillery is a bit harder. Can we recruit locals to serve in our artillery and cavalry branch, and if so how many?

 

[Ultrackius]

Personally I'd love to get some devil soldiers eventually

 

[Pinniped]

will say that you won't be destroying any bridges without artillery, preferably siege artillery, and artillery is not going to be very fast on such a trip.

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I was thinking along the lines of sending cavalry, with as much extra Munitions as the horses can carry, in order to try to blow up the bridge. However, based on this I assume the extra munitions won't be enough?

You can send off a part of your force as an independent formation, yes. Choose a CO and give as precise orders as you like.

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Just to confirm: would this action, or some other write-in action such as sending someone into Daurstein to scout for revolutionary sentiment, cost us a March Action? I assume it would, for balance reasons?

 

[The Laurent]

While I know it's kinda been forgotten, I'm kinda proud of us! The entire negotiations thing was a write-in, and it's successfully gained the city without having to resort to siege or assault, and further winnowed the forces of our now conquered enemies. From the very words of the update, we might as well expect all of these to be write-offs for the next few weeks, leaving us having effectively destroyed the entire enemy force. Our men grumble a little, sure, but another great victory will bring that morale right back up to the top anyway.