"Is there an actual point to this conversation? You're so far into the realm of paranoia that it's pretty much impossible to take you seriously. I don't get the point of a dream quest if I'm just going to end up ignoring both you and whatever other extreme is represented by the 'extra.'"
Imo, Paranoid!Taylor is in fact mostly right. Roma is in fact a manipulative Villain without much of a moral compass.

"Half the Capes out there don't even wear armor—yeah, there are those rumors of Lung shrugging off gunfire, but what about practically everyone else in the city? Villains shouldn't be a problem. Instead, they're practically given the same reverence as the rich and powerful or politicians—it says disturbing things that there's so much overlap there—complete with not staying in jail even when they damn well deserve it, and shooting them being treated as bad even when they're actively harming others."
It shows that she's young and doesn't see the big picture. Those villains are necessary to fight the Endbringers.

I'm not actually sure I believe Praes is genuinely more socially mobile than Worm!US. Praes is a land of predominately subsistence farmers. The historical social mobility of subsistence farmers is basically nill. Maybe in the cities those farmers enable there's the possibility of social mobility and maybe people who leave the Green Stretch occasionally do Villain stuff, but that's a statement on hypothetical maximum mobility. Hers still has to be a society where 95+% of people have no mobility in practice.
Praes has relatively more social mobility than a regular agrarian society. Dread Empress Malicia was indeed a waitress before becoming ruler. But for every one commoner taking the throne, there's 20 nobles who do so. Because nobles have money, magic, armies and are groomed since childhood to be good at politics. The overwhelming majority of the commoners toil the fields or fight on the frontline. The only exceptions are mages and bureaucrats. If you're one of those and very good, there's a way to go high. But you'll still never be nobility.
 
"–it isn't just on a local level. Those in power are so incompetent that the Slaughterhouse Nine, walking examples of the greater evil, have existed since well before we were born. Seriously, how? They didn't always have Bonesaw to help them hold areas hostage via disease, and don't tell me that Eidolon couldn't find a way to deal with that mess. We live in a world with near-instantaneous communication across the planet and somehow they're still alive. If that doesn't scream incompetence and an inability to govern, I don't know what does.

"Half the Capes out there don't even wear armor—yeah, there are those rumors of Lung shrugging off gunfire, but what about practically everyone else in the city? Villains shouldn't be a problem. Instead, they're practically given the same reverence as the rich and powerful or politicians—it says disturbing things that there's so much overlap there—complete with not staying in jail even when they damn well deserve it, and shooting them being treated as bad even when they're actively harming others."
Now, now, Taylor, don't be ridiculous. That's conspiracy theory territory. Next thing you are going to say that the government is under control of a secret organisation that wants to create a parahuman army or something.
 
*Angry Edward Elric noises*
To be fair, from my old recollections of FMA, this is most of the sounds that Ed makes.
APGTE makes it pretty clear that Praes winds up falling prey to the standard failings of "meritocracy" -- entrenched power can ensure that its scions accrue more "merit" and thus perpetuate an aristocracy even if technically anyone can also demonstrate that merit.
The phrase 'upward mobility' and 'meritocracy' are VERY misleading when talking about Praes. Yes, there is the ability to move upward, but 9/10 times it's not because you are better at something useful. It's because you found a way to slit the throat of the person above you without drawing notice, or at least without it being provable that you were the one who did it. And to utterly slaughter anyone who attempts to do the same to you, along with all their family, lovers, servants, and pets.

Especially the pets.

Edit: It reminds me of a story a friend of mine who was a history major told me. For some reason, we were talking about the English colonization of India (Honestly, I have absolutely no idea how we had gotten on that topic. We were in our early twenties, huge nerds, and probably making odd references in the midst of another conversation.) He said that English soldiers stationed there, when proposing toasts when drinking, would make a toast to 'Bloody Wars and Deadly Diseases.' The context for this was that despite the huge presence of the English military, there was a surprisingly small number of officers, leading each officer to control large territories of responsibility. A side product of this was that it was very difficult to move up in the ranks unless the guy on top bought it. So the soldiers used to use this toast in the hopes that their COs would die so they could get promoted.

(Of course, being in our early twenties, huge nerds, somewhat irreverent, and especially ones that enjoyed confusing the hell out of 'normal' people in public, we immediately started using that toast in public whenever we would go out drinking to start the night. There's nothing like watching the dumbfounded faces of bartenders and eavesdroppers at a trendy bar when you give a toast like that with absolutely no context.)

End edit

Then again, that was 'current day' Praes when we see it in story. And while I have no idea 'how' different the Empire is from Roma's time, it's probably a moot distinction.

In terms of people rising on pure merit, rather than backstabbing Prasi politics, sorcery, war crimes, etc. I was under the impression that this was a relatively recent idea in the Empire, with the rise of the current Empress, the Black Knight, and the Calamities. One that is not supported by the old guard, but they bite their tongues because they expected the Empress to be dealt with by someone else. And in the end, the Empress and Black Knight care little about encouraging rising on their merits more so than Black is more focusing on ways to defeat/twist/trick Providence. Black's speech in the chapter entitled 'Madman', I believe, summarizes it best.

He laughed. "Oh, if the heroes deserved their victories against us, I would make my peace with it. But they don't, do they? Your sullen little nemesis gets to swing an angel's feather, while you make do with steel and wiles. That's always the way of it. At the last moment they're taught a secret spell by a dead man, or your mortal weakness is revealed to them or they somehow manage to master a power in a day that would take a villain twenty years to own. Gods, I've even heard of Choirs stepping in to settle a losing fight. The sheer fucking arrogance of it."

The second time I'd ever heard him swear, and it surprised me as much as the last. Teeth bared, he leaned forward.

"None of it is earned. It is handed to them, and this offends me."

"You asked me what I want," Black said. "This once, just this once, I want us to win."

The smile across his face was a cutting, vicious thing.

"To spit in the eyes of the Hashmallim. To trample the pride of all those glorious, righteous princes. To scatter their wizards and make their oracles liars. Just to prove that it can be done."

There was something his eyes burning like coals and embers.

"So that five hundred years from now, a band of heroes shiver in the dark of night. Because they know that no matter how powerful their sword or righteous their cause, there was once a time it wasn't enough. That even victories ordained by the Heavens can broken by the will of men."

Any sort of idea of rising based on true merit is only a byproduct of what Black and the Empress were really trying to do. It's been a while since I've actively read APGtE (I stopped after Book 5 as I wanted to build up more of a backlog than reading it as it came out, and I've never really had time to go back and check. And honestly at this point, I feel like I'd have to restart from scratch to actually remember everything.)
 
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Most villains are less useful than a PRT Trooper against an Endbringer.

Only some are useful. Why do the others get lenience?
A lot of villains are more useful against Endbringers than human soldiers. I imagine it's also bit difficult to draw an exact line, and the authorities prefer to simply put a blanket on all villains.

There's also (and mainly imo) the fact that Cauldron is desperately trying to make the biggest Cape army possible to fight Zion. They probably want as many of them, even if it's only for the weaker Capes to be used as meat shields for the strongest.

Any sort of idea of rising based on true merit is only a byproduct of what Black and the Empress were really trying to do.
Yes and no. Black (and Malicia to a certain degree) genuinely believes that a meritocracy is good in and of itself. They wouldn't implement one if it went against their objectives, sure, but if it was just neutral I think they would still make Praes as meritocratic as possible.
 
In Praes there are other ways social climbing can happen but most of it falls under can become a servant to someone important. We know for example that they are basically all checked for if they can use magic and those that can have options to serve households and so on. Additionally there's that stone thing in where when they are taught which can include semi public teaching where the person holding it is the one who can answer questions and pass it on when they want to whoever they want to learn about trading favours and so on but that section also did note opportunities are given to people who do well.

The problem of course though is that most of these paths allow for moving up but not all of them are voluntary and a lot of them get someone stuck serving a noble house with all the problems that entails. The main way of course to jump up is to be a Named because they have enough power to get away with a lot but still have to be careful not to cross certain people and having one also draws attention from people wanting to have a Named as a follower or kill them for the added reason of freeing up the Name in addition to the standard stuff like asset denial to an enemy.
 
Anyhow, moving slightly away from canon discussion territory back towards fic discussion, the thing I find most interesting about this-
So she wants power. So do a lot of politicians who are already in control, and at least she would improve things.
-is what it says about what Taylor wants and her own sense of agency.

Regardless of whether Roma really wants a meritocracy or not, Taylor does. But also, Taylor doesn't think she can accomplish it. There's no talk with either of her selves about doing it herself. She's technically the one with the power! Roma only has what Taylor gives her! But this fic's Taylor is neck deep (maybe deeper) in learned helplessness, and only just staying afloat because Roma is lending a hand. And it'll be really interesting to see if that ever changes.

Because the story's not at a point yet where it's causing friction that Roma is someone who, ah ... let's say she doesn't have a generally beneficial view of meritocracy, and there's no guarantee her methods will create one. But we can presume it eventually will be. And because Taylor's not standing up for herself yet, but we can presume she eventually will. So I can see a future where one day Taylor could end up doing the proper Godsdamned villain thing and say, "You know what Roma. You're not doing this right. Stand down and step aside, I'll do it myself."

And even if the story doesn't go there, wherever it may go, just the fact that what's been written up until now allowed that mental image is fucking fantastic.
 
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Well, this vision quest definitely fit in with the themes of the ones in PGtE, where both extremes were right to a point but also wrong to a much greater point.
Eh, Heroine was right on every actually relevant point. Yes, she represents Tay's self-loathing, to at least some extent, but that doesn't make any of her points irrelevant.
 
So I can see a future where one day Taylor could end up doing the proper Godsdamned villain thing and say, "You know what Roma. You're not doing this right. Stand down and step aside, I'll do it myself."
The real question is that if/when this happens, will Roma be annoyed or secretly proud of her darling Heiress. At times, I can see her going either way. After all, she's only doing what she's doing for fun, after all.
 
Eh, Heroine was right on every actually relevant point. Yes, she represents Tay's self-loathing, to at least some extent, but that doesn't make any of her points irrelevant.

Taylor's inner Heroine / self-critic is like a broken clock. I think she'd be this disparaging of anyone. Making the general decision to ignore her, open up, and seek love is definitely the correct one. In general. But like a broken clock, Taylor's self-critic is right two times a day, and this just happens to be one of those times.
 
"THE FIRST STEP is hardest, they said to her.
You will have to walk through fire.
It will burn away what you once were,
And always devour whole a liar."-The Girl Who Climbed the Tower, A Practical Guide to Evil

If it wasn't clear, I'm throwing my hat into the ring and suggesting that Taylor is either going to become the Dread Empress or something else and then transition into the Dread Empress. As for why I think that, Taylor's journey so far seems to be mirroring the first step. Roma has been subtly changing things about her and getting Taylor to be more honest with herself which could be characterized as "walk through fire". Which I imagine will have the effect of "burn away what you once were" since, if we're being honest with ourselves, Taylor is not someone a parent would be happy with. She's depressed, somewhat suicidal, untrusting, closed off, and a bunch of other red flags that would have most parents worried if they were aware of them. Hence why upon completion of this, she'll be a pretty different person. As for the whole "devour a liar", that part is also clear. Roma is trying to make these changes stick. If the changes are lies, then she'll fail. They'll be devoured and Taylor will be doomed back to a life of mediocrity. Or at least, she'll be out of the running for Dread Empress. Which now that I think about it, could be another path. Roma tries to steer towards Dread Empress, but Taylor's changes are revealed to be a lie and she gets another Name. Still, I'm less certain of that given the way things with Roma have been set up. Regardless, I've been loving this story so far and look forward to seeing more.

Though I have to admit this didn't click with me at all until I was looking over the chapter names and saw the first chapter labeled "The First Step" and that had The Girl Who Climbed The Tower lyrics blaring in my mind.
 
What's amusing to me, and people probably already commented on it, but the whole Dean thing is setting up another story - the whole Hero-Villain romantic relationship we sometimes see in comics. The whole, each knowing who the other is but never commenting on it, lest they betray their own identity.

It seems like such a PGTE thing to do when transitioned into the comic book world rather than the fantasy world. The issue is that if that were the case, Roma likely would have commented on it already, unless even she didn't see it coming because it's not a common story trope where she came from.
 
What's amusing to me, and people probably already commented on it, but the whole Dean thing is setting up another story - the whole Hero-Villain romantic relationship we sometimes see in comics. The whole, each knowing who the other is but never commenting on it, lest they betray their own identity.

It seems like such a PGTE thing to do when transitioned into the comic book world rather than the fantasy world. The issue is that if that were the case, Roma likely would have commented on it already, unless even she didn't see it coming because it's not a common story trope where she came from.

Hmm. We do know that the young daughter of the villain being seduced away by the well-meaning hero is a trope though. But it's also one the narrative nudges the villain not to see, or else might just be one Roma doesn't want to see, or bring to Taylor's attention.
 
Clumsy and hilarious Gallant/Heiress relationship in the style of a Batman/Catwoman, when? :D

Come on, Roma would eat that crap up with popcorn just to watch the following Goblin Fire.

Edit: In case it hasn't been raised yet, any bets on what Taylor's other two aspects will be?
 
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Clumsy and hilarious Gallant/Heiress relationship in the style of a Batman/Catwoman, when? :D

Come on, Roma would eat that crap up with popcorn just to watch the following Goblin Fire.

Edit: In case it hasn't been raised yet, any bets on what Taylor's other two aspects will be?

'Control' is too easy, especially in this story where she's busy ceding it to Roma, so maybe 'Believe' to stick with the "aspects that can have villainous or heroic readings and usage" theme and her own willingness to believe in Roma? It's way too early to guess a third, I think, it depends a lot on what she ends up doing and becoming.

Sticking with known aspects, perhaps 'Receive'.
 
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Yeah, it's way too early for her to be finding a new aspect as they do tend to be very dependent on the Named's actions (iirc). But it wouldn't surprise me if she got something similar to 'Hide' or 'Evade' considering she's already twice disappeared on the heroes out from under their noses (GG, Gallant/Aegis/Triumph), and she's going to be constantly using a glamour instead of a mask.

But we probably won't see a second aspect until Heiress actually starts doing things as a cape. Depending on how things go (and the usual flow of Worm stories with Taylor) it wouldn't surprise me if she got some version of Cat's 'Struggle' aspect. Edit: Perhaps a version that isn't based on enhancing her physical abilities against stronger opponents, but perhaps in some way intensifying some mental power/intelligence when in a similar position. Perhaps having a better ability to implement magic on the fly due to increased stress or something like that. Edit the 2nd: Perhaps 'Learn' since Taylor does seem to be picking up glamour magics fairly quickly, I'd be curious if this extends outside of Roma's teachings.
 
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God... this is... glorious!

I remember not reading this since i thought it was dead buts its back now and i am not sad i read it....

Thanks for the read~
 
The phrase 'upward mobility' and 'meritocracy' are VERY misleading when talking about Praes. Yes, there is the ability to move upward, but 9/10 times it's not because you are better at something useful. It's because you found a way to slit the throat of the person above you without drawing notice, or at least without it being provable that you were the one who did it. And to utterly slaughter anyone who attempts to do the same to you, along with all their family, lovers, servants, and pets.

Especially the pets.
It occurs to me that the most important aspect of meritocracy is not upward mobility, but downward mobility, which is provided by the lack of protectionism for large mercantile or productive organizations in our society.
Primarily resulting in downward mobility from corporate bigwig to trust fund holder status between generations when things are inherited by someone who doesn't know how to run a company.

But arguing for more consistent downward mobility is politically untenable and would result in capital flight from any nation that adopted such policies.
 
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Is it bad that after re-reading some of this, I wish that Taylor also had a Goblin sidekick, ala Robber, as part of her power? Just because I think it'd be hilarious for her to be constantly be like,

Taylor: "NO! You can't commit atrocities!"
Goblin: "... maybe only a little? And on the bad guys? No one cares when the bad guys get hurt."
Roma: "He's not wrong."
Taylor: "NO!"

Man, this story caught my interest the other day and I'm honestly more hyped for it than most of the other stories I follow nowadays.
 
Is it bad that after re-reading some of this, I wish that Taylor also had a Goblin sidekick, ala Robber, as part of her power? Just because I think it'd be hilarious for her to be constantly be like,

Taylor: "NO! You can't commit atrocities!"
Goblin: "... maybe only a little? And on the bad guys? No one cares when the bad guys get hurt."
Roma: "He's not wrong."
Taylor: "NO!"

Man, this story caught my interest the other day and I'm honestly more hyped for it than most of the other stories I follow nowadays.

So we need Imp introduced as quickly as possible to get her a bloodthirsty minion!
 
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