Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 24: Xenial Xenos Xerox Xanthous Xiphos

[Monotov]

I don't accept the idea that Saki has a right to Lord Grasp, however, so there is little point in discussing the topic.

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Then you aren't acknowledging How Exalted Works, which is a dangerous slope to start on. It's inherently unequal. Lots of things about Exalts are. No, it isn't pleasant, but none of the people who set it up actually gave a fuck about that. Saki is within her rights to do this, because Exalts have the right to command their familiars. It's not really compatible with conventional modern ethics, but Exalts aren't anyway. So grow up and accept that there's no obligation to live up to a conventional moral standard for those involved.

 

[qwolfs]

Then you aren't acknowledging How Exalted Works, which is a dangerous slope to start on. It's inherently unequal. Lots of things about Exalts are. No, it isn't pleasant, but none of the people who set it up actually gave a fuck about that. Saki is within her rights to do this, because Exalts have the right to command their familiars. It's not really compatible with conventional modern ethics, but Exalts aren't anyway. So grow up and accept that there's no obligation to live up to a conventional moral standard for those involved.

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The fact that magic makes enslaving others and ignoring their desires easier doesn't actually make slavery morally acceptable.

Your argument is deeply flawed, it would apply just as easily to the Atlantic slave trade, where the military power of Europe and America allowed them to enforce slavery and they also didn't feel obligated to "live up to conventional morality".

It was still wrong. Might does not make right.

Even in Exalted there is no Shinma that justifies slavery.

Edit: I'm sure if Taylor goes to the Eye of Autochthon and says she has the metaphysical right to decide how it may act that'll go over well. Oh wait, no it won't.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

Consider also that spirits like Lord grasp are their jobs in a way that humans like us aren't. Lord Grasp's job, and therefore his very being, is being Saki's (and Sakura's, but she's not here right now) familiar - keeping her safe, helping her, and tending to her physical and mental well-being.

He probably wouldn't enjoy being a public bath house if doing so poked Saki in her not-yet-fully-resolved issues, even if she pretended she was okay for (what she thought was) his sake. "Be Saki's (and Sakura's) Familiar" most likely outweighs "be a fabulous house" or "be appreciated by people in addition to Saki (and Sakura)" or "be generous to people in addition to Saki (and Sakura)" in Lord Grasp's personal utility function.

Now, helping Saki resolve her issues and get her into a state where she's emotionally secure enough that she's genuinely okay with letting the unwashed masses in to let Lord Grasp make them all a bit more fabulous while she's off at school, that would satisfy his utility function far better than Saki sucking it up and ignoring her discomfort (however selfish) so he can indulge his love of sharing his fabulousness right now.

Calling it wrong for a familiar's personal utility function to work this way is sort of like calling it wrong for humans to have the capacity to care about ideals or other people more than for their own personal satisfaction. Most people who don't live up Ayn Rand's rear end would probably say that selflessness is a good thing. That the type of selflessness familiar spirits like Lord Grasp have is not usually part of the human condition is no reason to condemn its expression.

Whether Saki is being insufficiently selfless towards people in the shelters is a separate issue, one covered by the "is it wrong to not want strangers using your bathroom while you're out" question.

 

[Monotov]

It was still wrong. Might does not make right.

Even in Exalted there is no Shinma that justifies slavery.

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It is also literally the only thing that has ever decided anything in Exalted. Might made the Primordials the rulers of the world, and Might overthrew them in favor of the Solars, who then fell to the DBs, who then fell to the dead. Exalted has never had morality having any position, and power has always decided everything. The narrative it hold is inherently about unequal power and the strong being able to do as they will, then having to figure out the consequences. At no point is Morality ever a factor in deciding who gets to do anything. Exalted is Not Reality, and it works on the assumption that Creation has always, in the end, been ruled my Might. Autochthon, and via him Eye, gets what he wants because he is powerful enough to take it, even over the will of.....well, anything but Autochthon himself at this point. As a Fetich, he can trivially enforce anything he wants on any spirit, and if Taylor wants to reign him in, he has access to Primordial Lolno charmtech not available to anything short of his greater self.

Moral acceptability doesn't matter in Exalted. It never has. Power is the decider of every major event in the entire history of the setting, and that isn't going to change with a change in venue for the Exalted and Primordials. What we consider moral? We have that via a very different process not involving Actual Gods with the ability to rewrite reality to their whims. Cecelyenne, bitch that she is, does have a point. Might is, for Exalted, all that has ever really mattered. Saki has the might, so she gets what she wants. Period. Morality be damned, because that's how Exalted works. She may regret it later. People may object. But in the end, it can't change the event. Many of those who won wrote narrative that paint them as morally correct, but it is also inescapably true they got change via martial might, and then proceeded to gain even more power form the event.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

I don't think anyone's arguing that this issue is somehow against a natural moral law in-universe (or out), we're arguing about how it fits (or doesn't) within our own mostly-shared systems of morality.

@Gromweld, see what happens when you only include one or two tiny clear developments in an update and leave everything else unstated and vague? Everyone latches on to a throwaway joke and debates its moral implications with all the vehemence of a Cauldron Morality Debate!

 

[qwolfs]

As I said, there's little point continuing this discussion.

You are welcome to continue justifying slavery by saying that capability inherently gives you the right to exercise your capability, and I'll continue calling that an immoral view no matter how often you tell me that morality doesn't apply.

If might made right Theon would be King.

 

[FeepingCreature]

It is also literally the only thing that has ever decided anything in Exalted. Might made the Primordials the rulers of the world, and Might overthrew them in favor of the Solars, who then fell to the DBs, who then fell to the dead. Exalted has never had morality having any position, and power has always decided everything. The narrative it hold is inherently about unequal power and the strong being able to do as they will, then having to figure out the consequences. At no point is Morality ever a factor in deciding who gets to do anything.

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Sure, but that's exactly how our world works as well. However, here as in Exalted:

1. Power decides the outcome.
2. People have power.
3. People hold moral beliefs
4. People are amenable, to varying extents, to moral arguments.

Hence, here as in Exalted, moral arguments can shape the outcome.

It's not like moral statements have objective weight out here either.

edit: That said, I find the argument from Lord Grasp's utility function entirely convincing.

 

[FunkyEntropy]

The optics aren't good, no, but you're also being somewhat unreasonable by practically demanding that she go from 0 to "invite EVERYONE into a place she considers her refuge" instead of more measured steps.

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It's the difference between a couple talking about maybe opening up their house to host a refugee family and someone coming home from work to be greeted with, "SURPRISE! I turned our house into a homeless shelter while you were out."

 

[qwolfs]

It's the difference between a couple talking about maybe opening up their house to host a refugee family and someone coming home from work to be greeted with, "SURPRISE! I turned our house into a homeless shelter while you were out."

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Not really, it's more like one partner asking the other to go help at a homeless shelter, then the other being deeply offended that they washed dirty ugly refugees with their hands

It's temporary, Lord Grasp wasn't planning on hosting the camp, and he can certainly clean his insides if that were the problem.

 

[landcollector]

You are welcome to continue justifying slavery

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Oh, *please*. Familiars are not slaves that cannot refuse or disobey. Stop using incorrect and charged terminology. Have you already forgotten Mister E.'s antics wrt Aisha?

If might made right Theon would be King.

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Incorrect. The rebellion's combined strength and cunning was greater than his.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

Assuming I'm not wrong about how familiars' personal utility functions work, though, it really says something about the depth of Autochthon's trust in Enduring Order Administrator and/or His sheer desperation that He'd use a connection method with that sort of internal value modification on His secondary fetich soul to let said soul operate in Nowhere.

 

[uju32]

Chapter 10.6
(Part 9)​

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-So Christine Mathers did actual physical damage to her son?
I mean, shes a control freak, but I didnt think she would damage her own blood . Maybe Saki aggravated her beyond her normal control?
I guess Saki now has motivation to pick up the healing drug for her Hypodermic drug charm.

-That Uriel was immediately on the line makes me wonder if Saki went full totemic and people could see her anima from across the city.
Or whether the staff just had standing instructions to call him if anything out of the ordinary happened.
Probably help figure if people *cough*Wards*cough* are going to start calling her to check if she's okay because they saw her anima display from across the city, or on TV.

-

It is not repressed to not want tons of random dirty civilians cleaning themselves in your Familiar! Hot and/or cute civilians are fine, but you can't just pick and choose if you let him sit in the relief shelters! Well, you could figure out a way to do it and not tip people off, but the idea was for him to be there during school hours, without you!

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Oh. Oh.

She was using the bathhouse herself, or planning to use the bath house, when Lord Grasp let in the civilians to share the facilities.
Yeah, I can see how that would be an issue. For anyone with modern sensibilities. Let alone an Alchemical with a secret identity, an S-class cape she's trying to rehabilitate and a history of recent trauma.

-Noting that Uriel apparently got a phone call.
The fecal matter is about to hit the rotary impeller.
******

Wow. Just...need a minute to unpack all this.

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No, it implies he went there either when she was meaning to use the facilities, or when she was already in them.
He's from Yu-Shan, which had an almost Romanesque attitude towards public baths; their standards of sharing intimate facilities like baths are very much not those of a Japanese-American girl from the East Coast.

I suspect its more that Saki wasn't sure she could trust herself...

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Nah.

Uh... wow, that bourgeois entitlement set in fast, huh. Got to keep the dirty peasants away, I guess? Unless their attractive of course, nothing creepy and objectifying about that, nope, not at all.

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No offense, but how would you feel about sharing your home with the homeless?
Specifically, how would you feel about soaking in your jacuzzi, and then having a procession of strangers walk in to share it while you're right there?
Because that was what apparently happened with Saki.

It is Lord Grasps prerogative to do with his body as he pleases.

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This is like saying that a married man or woman's body is theirs to do with as they please without consequence.
Ongoing relationship with responsibilities.

I'm not, I'm saying that she has them and that she is acting immorally because of them.

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Expecting a traumatized teenage girl to be okay with essentially sharing her home/life partner with a procession of strangers is not really a reasonable ask. Saki is a nice girl with Compassion 3; she's not a saint.
And we actively voted against allowing her edit her own attitudes and intimacies.

And it bears noting that the difference here is that these are refugees at a federal refugee camp, not utter destitutes.
Refugee camps that Taylor and Accord and Dragon helped set up, with all that means for efficiency and amenities.
She's not denying them essential facilities.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

So Christine Mathers did actual physical damage to her son?

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The physical damage could be explained by the physical abduction of Mama's shard, which was both interacting with Valefor's physical brainmeats (because everything is physical in Nowhere) and also likely what Valefor's shard (also interacting with his physical brainmeats) budded from. Normal influence from the Dybbuk shard might be precise enough to fall within POS's realm of influence, but panicked thrashing about might not be, and who knows what secondary feedback Valefor's bud passed on if it was in touch with it's progenitor.

 

[qwolfs]

Oh. Oh.

She was using the bathhouse herself, or planning to use the bath house, when Lord Grasp let in the civilians to share the facilities.
Yeah, I can see how that would be an issue. For anyone. Let alone an Alchemical with a secret identity, an S-class cape she's trying to rehabilitate and a history of recent trauma.

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Uh, no. The rest of your argument is based on the highlighted reading being true. But that isn't clear, at all.

The way Saki phrases things is in the hypothetical. ie. "if he were there without me I could not choose who he lets clean themselves."
Not, "I was there and he let people in while I was bathing.".

I guess it's theoretically possible @Gromweld meant it that way, but if so it isn't clear at all.

No offense, but how would you feel about sharing your home with the homeless?
Specifically, how would you feel about soaking in your jacuzzi, and then having a procession of strangers walk in to share it while you're right there?
Because that was what apparently happened with Saki.

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See the above.

This is like saying that a married man or woman's body is theirs to do with as they please without consequence.
Ongoing relationship with responsibilities.

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If the line they draw with their partner is: can't help out cleaning people at a refugee shelter unless the refugees are attractive, then they have issues.

Expecting a traumatized teenage girl to be okay with essentially sharing her home/life partner with a procession of strangers is not really a reasonable ask. Saki is a nice girl with Compassion 3; she's not a saint.
And we actively voted against allowing her edit her own attitudes and intimacies.

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See above, the situation is not comparable.
Saki wanted Grasp to help out at a refugee shelter, she specifically doesn't want him cleaning people unless they're pretty. She isn't sharing her House/Life partner with anyone outside of a very specific view where she is asserting ownership over that person. Ie. You are mine, therefore you may not interact with people I disapprove of even if that is in the context of helping refugees.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

If the line they draw with their partner is: can't help out cleaning people at a refugee shelter unless the refugees are attractive, then they have issues.

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I doubt Saki'd have this kind of reaction if Lord Grasp was just showing up as Glam!Scorpion with a hose strapped to his tail and weilding a loofah and a bar of soap in his pincers.

I mean, there'd still be loneliness from not having him with her, but there wouldn't be that feeling of intrusion in a place she sees as a sanctuary.

 

[uju32]

Uh, no. The rest of your argument is based on the highlighted reading being true. But that isn't clear, at all.

The way Saki phrases things is in the hypothetical. ie. "if he were there without me I could not choose who he lets clean themselves."
Not, "I was there and he let people in while I was bathing.".
I guess it's theoretically possible @Gromweld meant it that way, but if so it isn't clear at all.

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Actually is.

Note Grasp talking about people being repressed? THAT's why it's relevant.
Sharing baths is normal both in Autochtonia and back in Yu-Shan; public baths were regarded with a Roman esthetic, the way public swimming pools are regarded in summer.

But that's not how modern sensibilities roll. Hence his comments about people being repressed.

If the line they draw with their partner is: can't help out cleaning people at a refugee shelter unless the refugees are attractive, then they have issues.

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Line is: Do not invite strangers into our private spaces unless we are BOTH okay with it.
And it's a perfectly reasonable ask.

It goes both ways. Note how freaked out Lord Grasp was when Saki sent him off with Prayer for two days.

See above, the situation is not comparable.
Saki wanted Grasp to help out at a refugee shelter, she specifically doesn't want him cleaning people unless they're pretty. She isn't sharing her House/Life partner with anyone outside of a very specific view where she is asserting ownership over that person. Ie. You are mine, therefore you may not interact with people I disapprove of even if that is in the context of helping refugees.

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You are mistaken.
Saki was explicitly fine with him being at the refugee camp when she was at school. She personally just didn't want to associate with unknown strangers in her bathroom/private sanctuary. And that's a perfectly reasonable ask.

Her days are filled with helping out strangers.

 

[qwolfs]

I doubt Saki'd have this kind of reaction if Lord Grasp was just showing up as Glam!Scorpion with a hose strapped to his tail and welding a loofa and a bar of soap in his pincers.

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Lord Grasp is a house, cleaning people in the baths is natural for him. Their his cleaning utensils.

Actually is.

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No, it isn't

It is not repressed to not want tons of random dirty civilians cleaning themselves in your Familiar! Hot and/or cute civilians are fine, but you can't just pick and choose if you let him sit in the relief shelters! Well, you could figure out a way to do it and not tip people off, but the idea was for him to be there during school hours, without you!

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"I can't pick and choose if I let him sit there. Well, I could but not if I'm not there."

Nowhere does this imply, anywhere, that Lord Grasp let people walk in on Saki.

 

[Spectral Waltz]

@Gromweld can you weigh in a little on this argument? This is getting complicated.

 

[Vyrexuviel]

@Gromweld can you weigh in a little on this argument? This is getting complicated.

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Please, do, this is getting out of hand. I'd prefer -not- to have to slog through another five pages of adamantly-vociferous arguments over an ambiguously-worded snippet.

 

[qwolfs]

Oh, *please*. Familiars are not slaves that cannot refuse or disobey. Stop using incorrect and charged terminology. Have you already forgotten Mister E.'s antics wrt Aisha?

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I never did. In fact, I couldn't have more clearly said the opposite if I put it in writing. Mainly because I literally did.

He is not a slave or an object.

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[landcollector]

I never did. In fact, I couldn't have more clearly said the opposite if I put it in writing. Mainly because I literally did.

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Then why are you blithely tossing around the term slavery for, hm?

 

[qwolfs]

Then why are you blithely tossing around the term slavery for, hm?

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How about you actually read my posts, instead of asking for a summary.

The reason I used the term slavery is because I was arguing that Morality can be applied to exalted and that might makes right is not the only judgement that can be made. Molotov disagreed and said that Exalted is fundamentally beyond moral examination and that might does indeed make right.

I pointed out that this view of might makes right justifies slavery. They responded by saying that Exalted is beyond moral examination and that might makes right.

I informed them that I would be leaving the discussion, as continuing to argue about the morality of something with someone who does not believe morality applies would be pointless. They seemed willing to table the discussion as well.


I don't want to misrepresent your argument here @Monotov, so if there's something I'm missing please point it out.

 

[Monotov]

I don't want to misrepresent your argument here @Monotov, so if there's something I'm missing please point it out.

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You are. I'm not saying might makes right, i'm saying 'right' doesn't matter and never really has in Exalted. Might Matters, and the morality gets to shut up or get shanked whenever it disagrees with what Might has brought about.

 

[qwolfs]

You are. I'm not saying might makes right, i'm saying 'right' doesn't matter and never really has in Exalted. Might Matters, and the morality gets to shut up or get shanked whenever it disagrees with what Might has brought about.

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Thank you for clarifying. It doesn't actually change my opinion on the applicability of morality to exalted, though I do agree with what you say.

Edit: @Monotov on further reflection I would also like to apologize for saying that you were justifying slavery, since that wasn't the case and a misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Monotov]

Edit: @Monotov on further reflection I would also like to apologize for saying that you were justifying slavery, since that wasn't the case and a misunderstanding on my part.

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Not a problem. I'll note as well that I do agree with you that Saki's actions are distasteful, but I also think that...well, that distaste has no real bearing on the situation.