Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane

Pre-Vote Running Tally: Who Are Your Top 3 Choices For Orichalcum?


  • Total voters
    626
I believe the consensus is that Earth-Bet is a deterministic universe. At its very base, there is no evidence of anything like a 'soul' or 'freewill' (we had this discussion with Wyld, how she is forced to come to terms with the fact that everyone other than Weaver that she has encountered are just meat machines). It's why the Entities can model things so effectively with pre-cog, its basically just math at such a scale to determine where individual molecules will end up in the grand scheme of things. Its just really power intensive.
Where as Essence universe does have something called a 'soul' that is completely separate from everything else. When an Earth-Bet thing starts modelling Taylor, it can work a little bit, but then Taylor does something else that the model doesn't see because the parahuman power literally cannot account for 'freewill' in the true style that an Essence universe uses.

If I got any of this wrong, someone please correct me.
 
I believe the consensus is that Earth-Bet is a deterministic universe. At its very base, there is no evidence of anything like a 'soul' or 'freewill' (we had this discussion with Wyld, how she is forced to come to terms with the fact that everyone other than Weaver that she has encountered are just meat machines). It's why the Entities can model things so effectively with pre-cog, its basically just math at such a scale to determine where individual molecules will end up in the grand scheme of things. Its just really power intensive.
Where as Essence universe does have something called a 'soul' that is completely separate from everything else. When an Earth-Bet thing starts modelling Taylor, it can work a little bit, but then Taylor does something else that the model doesn't see because the parahuman power literally cannot account for 'freewill' in the true style that an Essence universe uses.

If I got any of this wrong, someone please correct me.

We don't know if it is deterministic or not.
If it is like the real world, we know there are random events due to Quantum physics or something.
 
something to consider for those that want Ciara is that she's more useful to us not exalted.
Exalting her dumps all her accumulated powers, and that if we just Social her on side she'll still have access to them.
I don't like Accord, and feel that if we can just grant him a soul that would be enough(thus we need to grab those medicine dots so that we can make the essence conversion nanobots).

I'm fine with Alexandria, Lustrum, Miss Militia, or Piggot for Orihalcum.

actually Piggot is a good choice now that I think about her more.
she'd get a lot of freebie skills from all that experience she's accumulated over the course of her career(both combat and bureaucratic)
more flexibility than a ParaExalted because of no massive Shard Charm(unless we get her a cauldron vial).
this Piggot wasn't one of these rabid parahuman hater versions, and could probably work well with the Assembly.
 
We don't know if it is deterministic or not.
If it is like the real world, we know there are random events due to Quantum physics or something.
It was mentioned in the Viator segment, IIRC: Quantum events are a thing, but they certainly don't add up to anything resembling free will.
 
Last edited:
what do you mean?
We've Exalted both a Natural Trigger(Twins) and a Cauldron Cape(Marrow/Vajra).
...I'm not smart. That's what I mean. :V

Derp a herp. All of the herp and the derp. Dumb twei is dumb. How did I forget that? :c
 
The net result is that we are all much less safe.

This analysis leads me to conclude that he is worth more to us as a corpse than a functioning meat robot alive.

The juice is not worth the squeeze.
SPU obviates much of the need for a dedicated Thinker group.
And we don't actually need his Tinkers; we can weaponize Masamune, who either already works with the Guild, or is somewhere in Japan, for mass-production.

I'm going to have to conditionally disagree with you here; we know that Tinker time is valuable, so adding more Tinkers to the system is helpful in reducing bottlenecks. (Not all Tinkers can work on other Tinkers' stuff, but the more you have that overlap the more they can inspire one another, word of Wildbow). Furthermore, while we know that Teacher's minions created 'crappy' Tinker gear, for non-Tinker use this isn't as much of a drawback; if you only need to address one problem (for example, Shadow Stalker's vulnerability to electricity) you don't necessarily need all the bells and whistles a Tinker would naturally add to their equipment without realizing it.

Thinkers, likewise, don't need to be amazing to be helpful; we're familiar with the big name Thinkers like Accord, Dinah, Tattletale or Contessa, but you also have ones like the humble Trace or the various economic watchdog Thinkers that bring added value to investigative efforts of some sort. Supplying the PRT with a source of, for lack of a better word, 'feeder Thinkers' that can give more powerful Thinkers like Trace or Accord data points to work with increases their efficacy.

In short, it's not about increasing the efficacy of our personal group (which, as you say, benefits from SPU and other synergistic charms) even though we'd also benefit from having more local Thinkers friendly with us (see; repeated frustrations in recruiting Tattletale, desire to keep Accord as ally even after the collapse of his criminal organization, attempts early in the Nine's attack to get a coterie of Thinkers as part of a centralized command unit to stay ahead of them) but rather increasing access the PRT has to the kind of tools they use to keep society stable. Necessary? No, not in the short to medium term. Helpful though.

Nilbog does not work that way.
His creations are unstable; not something you want in people's bodies.
And since we already have Bonesaw/Riley, making him a worker is a pretty low-priority event.

Not to mention that Wyld could probably mass-grow organs already if there was a need.

The exact mechanics of his help I imagine can be handled offscreen. I do think removing him as a hostile (if not actively antagonistic) element helps society significantly; even if he dropped dead and none of his failsafes to screw over everyone else went off, that removes one of the PRT's doom counters while freeing up a fair number of capes to be reassigned to various hot zones, as well as all the departmental funding increases and Thinker time spent asking "what is the likelihood that we are going to have to do a sudden mobilization to Ellisburg this week?"

If Nilbog is placed with the Guild under Wyld's supervision (parallels to Reilly are entirely intentional) and just acts as another bruiser, that's fine. We have plenty of S-class events that we could stand to have people willing to step up and die for us too. My point is that Nilbog is a candidate for getting spiked; dangerous foe, potential ally, some mental issues included. If we need to wait a few weeks for Saki to brush up on her Medicine (it's Psychology!) and Presence (Socializing! And mind rape!) before embarking on this endeavor, that's fine.

Or worse; I can see some bright spark arguing that she isn't a person, and thus experimenting on her code is legal.

Ask politicians about establishing a legal framework for nonhuman legal personhood? Like our good friend Lord Grasp, who is both sentient and sapient, yet not likely to be mistaken for human and may be offended by calling him one. I imagine several prominent persons might send an amicus curiae to legal experts to have their voices heard, and if key politicians remain recalcitrant they may receive a visit from a woman in a fedora. Who knows?

"But I can make you immune to headaches!"

"...bad Riley. No biscuit."

She's trying to help, don't punish her for that.

Bonesaw is a clusterfuck of value judgments and evaluations.

And trauma. Can't forget the delicious, gooey tramatized core.


Is that her last name?

If you're grabbing the entirety of the Birdcage? Sure.
But as individuals?
There are very few people who would are individually useful to us.

String Theory, Inguenue and GU would be top tier picks for us if we were browsing the cage.
Teacher, Crane the Harmonious and Lab Rat would only make 2nd or 3rd tier.

Tapping the Birdcage residents as meat for the grinder, do you think? Inform them that if they are willing to undertake dangerous missions, such as Endbringer fights, and accept a "go to sleep" command implanted in them (plus, you know, a bomb in their head or whatever else to keep them loyal) they can go on supervised field trips (read: war zones) and with good behavior have their sentence commuted to something less? I imagine Marquis would bend over backwards to spend time with his daughter (how his daughter feels about that is unsure), while we could use some residents for selected missions if it's judged that their power set would be useful on a particular job.

..and now I'm imagining the Dirty Dozen movie with spandex.

Burnscar's problem is due to the shard. I don't think messing with her brain meats will solve anything.

You can give her another personality that responds to excessive fire being present (as its trigger) that switches her over from increasingly 'burn baby burn' to (as the first example to come to mind) Gandhi. It may not make her super useful in a cape fight, and it may lapse, but it's also a


Would Dragon's shackles include iterations of her code that are not her? Say, if Weaver made a similar artificial intelligence building on Dragon's code but made it distinct from Dragon so that it's less Dragon 2.0 and more "Gorgon, daughter of Dragon (and Weaver because the shippers are going to be all over this one)"?

Old Dragon encountering New Dragon forces the two of them to go into conflict for primacy.

The image to come to mind is half "giant reptiles competing for dominance" and half "He's my boytoy and get your claws off him, you hussy"
 
Tapping the Birdcage residents as meat for the grinder, do you think? Inform them that if they are willing to undertake dangerous missions, such as Endbringer fights, and accept a "go to sleep" command implanted in them (plus, you know, a bomb in their head or whatever else to keep them loyal) they can go on supervised field trips (read: war zones) and with good behavior have their sentence commuted to something less? I imagine Marquis would bend over backwards to spend time with his daughter (how his daughter feels about that is unsure), while we could use some residents for selected missions if it's judged that their power set would be useful on a particular job.

..and now I'm imagining the Dirty Dozen movie with spandex.
all I hear is when that concept come up is Suicide Squad/Task Force X
 
Would Dragon's shackles include iterations of her code that are not her? Say, if Weaver made a similar artificial intelligence building on Dragon's code but made it distinct from Dragon so that it's less Dragon 2.0 and more "Gorgon, daughter of Dragon (and Weaver because the shippers are going to be all over this one)"?

Depends on the degree of variance. If they are similar enough to share their Thinker power, they probably would murder each other.
 
all this talk about dragon makes me wonder if Ascalon and other cyber attacks can be parried or otherwise protected against by a charm?
 
all this talk about dragon makes me wonder if Ascalon and other cyber attacks can be parried or otherwise protected against by a charm?
We have been told that we will eventually get the chance to design new charms. It would have to be done when we are doing that, and I believe one charm we want to design is that internet one, since it doesn't yet exist in this reality.
 
I was looking at the charm Biofunction Inhibitor and wondered whether a) Incomparable Efficiency Upgrade allowed you to sleep faster (getting a full night's rest in just two hours, for instance) and b) Varja used this to give Kali a 'free night' so she could get more time in the sack gym.

Tangentially related, where were we on the nano-repair bots project?
 
what do you mean?
We've Exalted both a Natural Trigger(Twins) and a Cauldron Cape(Marrow/Vajra).

And exalting the latter woke up the Simurgh and apparently led to some stirring of Eden. Exalting another Cauldron cape has a good chance to go very, very bad.

Lustrum is a better choice than Ciara. her power doesn't get emptied out by Exaltation, and she fits the Orihalcum reqs.

Perhaps she's a better option than GU overall, but the only reason to even consider GU is her power. Lustrum has a decent parahuman power that isn't nearly worth Exalting an insane supervillain.

We choose an Orichalcum for their vision, but their vision should not contradict our Assembly's goals. Lustrum's 'a world without men' and GU's 'a world eaten by Entities' both do precisely that.

And people haven't really thought this through.
Saint has done nothing to warrant the Birdcage; hell, given that Dragon explicitly did not report most of the times he attacked her and stole her shit, odds are what is provable is actually quite slim.
Note that the PRT were able to engage with him as a contractor for services pretty openly in canon, when Dragon and Defiant weren't good little soldiers.

So no Birdcage, especially since he has no powers.
But he has demonstrated expertise with Dragontech, which makes him valuable to all sorts of people.
As soon as you stick him in jail, someone is going to break him out and turn him to their purposes, guaranteed; the US/Canadian government might even cut him a deal, like they have with multiple supervillains.

Which means you just turned an occasional irritant into an actual problem by putting him in a position of power.

And even if you got permission to POS him, POS does not eliminate Ability scores; he'd still retain his expertise with Dragontech.
And thus his value.

(Plus we don't want to reveal Dragon is an AI)

All of the above seems like an excellent reason to ask Cauldron to deal with Saint covertly, rather than doing it ourselves. He'll most certainly pose a problem regardless, and potentially soon.

That said, as far as I remember 'stop problematic cape from being a problem' is not actually on the list of Cauldron favors, even though it seems like a fairly obvious thing to ask, and I'm not sure how many slots it would take up (albeit this may well just count as 'access to any living parahuman', actually). One favor goes to a Level 1 vial for research; we don't seem to need money, we don't know any non-capes we plan to give a vial to, so of the original options we'd be asking for access to one or two additional living capes. Perhaps something to help Case 53s (to preemptively counteract PR), but not sure precisely what is possible on that front, aside from vial research. If Cauldron could restore early memories, or humanize forms, they'd presumably have done that in the first place. What are our medium-term goals that requesting a Cauldron cape could achieve, anyway?

As for Cauldron being a threat: yes, of course they're a threat, and we're a threat to them, but to a large extent our goals align, and we both have other things to worry about. We have no reason to backstab Cauldron, so we just have to worry about preventing them from backstabbing us.
 
we needed either 3 or 4 dots Medicine for the nano-repair bots, and 5 make Essence conversion Nano bots.

So...this seems like a job for Reilly, Accord, Armsmaster, Dragon, Taylor and (for the Essence conversion option) Iris. Assuming just the non-Spirits that's four Tinker/Tinker-analogues and an Alchemical with crafting charms and Synergy Promoting Upgrade. Add in another specialist of some sort stunted in and a goodly bit of high quality equipment dedicated for the task...how are we prioritizing this? I'd like to get it done sooner than later, but if we've got the Teeth inbound that seems like a small distraction.
 
So...this seems like a job for Reilly, Accord, Armsmaster, Dragon, Taylor and (for the Essence conversion option) Iris. Assuming just the non-Spirits that's four Tinker/Tinker-analogues and an Alchemical with crafting charms and Synergy Promoting Upgrade. Add in another specialist of some sort stunted in and a goodly bit of high quality equipment dedicated for the task...how are we prioritizing this? I'd like to get it done sooner than later, but if we've got the Teeth inbound that seems like a small distraction.

*Riley.
Also, do we trust everyone on that list with Essence-conversion bots?
 
Perhaps she's a better option than GU overall, but the only reason to even consider GU is her power. Lustrum has a decent parahuman power that isn't nearly worth Exalting an insane supervillain.
We choose an Orichalcum for their vision, but their vision should not contradict our Assembly's goals. Lustrum's 'a world without men' and GU's 'a world eaten by Entities' both do precisely that.

Lustrum is less insane than Ciara any day of the week, and her movement didn't start out as as insane as it was by the time she was Caged, so I'm blaming Shard driven conflict.

So...this seems like a job for Reilly, Accord, Armsmaster, Dragon, Taylor and (for the Essence conversion option) Iris. Assuming just the non-Spirits that's four Tinker/Tinker-analogues and an Alchemical with crafting charms and Synergy Promoting Upgrade. Add in another specialist of some sort stunted in and a goodly bit of high quality equipment dedicated for the task...how are we prioritizing this? I'd like to get it done sooner than later, but if we've got the Teeth inbound that seems like a small distraction.
sooner is better, because until we convert everything to Essence we can actually resurrect people with good enough medical nanobots(if I'm remembering things correctly).
we could likely un-braindead that C53(his body is still living right?) with the med nanites, but it's unlikely that he'd be the same person afterwards.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top