Age of Ice and Blood: A Pathfinder System Heroic Fantasy Quest

[Goldfish]

Well, perhaps if the actual fatherhood is off the table, we can still offer something? Adopted siblinghood is good too. Or we can emphasize that we will care for them, something is better than nothing.

The reason is because I see the situation as follows:

1. The girl lived among humans with her mother, yet was rejected by the community and her mother wasn't 100% with her.
2. Until yesterday she hasn't seen another shapeshifter, her intellectual and emotional makeup is almost 100% human.
3. She is not asking just because of intellectual curiosity, she desperately needs someone who cares for her because she is a child and now has no one like that and because she is adrift, having abandoned her previous life for an uncertain new one.
4. By giving her something like that we can instantly make with her a connection, a foundation of lasting good relationship, if we'll be good to her, she will be good to us, in that way we can mitigate almost all possible problems her nature can get us in.
5. She already is in good relationship with her probably more chaosy siblings, through her we can build relationship with them and influence them and measurably reduce amount of problems from them too.

All that works even if we'll leave them at the Wayfarer's Respite, we have a time to build a good relationship with them until we'll sail again, though are you really that set on leaving them behind? Why not at least wait and see, I'm positive now that I've seen how she thinks that at least from her we can get much more benefits than troubles if we'll start the relationship with her now and on a good note.

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I don't have a problem with any of that, except I believe you're trying to do too much, too fast. The kid asked us a simple but important question. We need to answer that question and see how she and her siblings respond before we like anything else on them.

Completely ignoring the issue of being Changelings, these kids are basically all Commoner children being whisked away to a completely new life. We don't know their previous circumstances, expectations, beliefs, etc.

As for bringing them with us, I really, really don't think that is a good idea. A long ocean voyage that will last the better part of a year, one fraught with danger of all sorts, is no place for helpless children. They won't just get in the way, they'll be a constant liability we have to account for, they will eat up time better spent on other things, potentially cause issues in strange ports, etc.

 

[DragonParadox]

Good night guys.

 

[incama]

[X] Goldfish

 

[myrix]

I don't have a problem with any of that, except I believe you're trying to do too much, too fast. The kid asked us a simple but important question. We need to answer that question and see how she and her siblings respond before we like anything else on them.

Completely ignoring the issue of being Changelings, these kids are basically all Commoner children being whisked away to a completely new life. We don't know their previous circumstances, expectations, beliefs, etc.

As for bringing them with us, I really, really don't think that is a good idea. A long ocean voyage that will last the better part of a year, one fraught with danger of all sorts, is no place for helpless children. They won't just get in the way, they'll be a constant liability we have to account for, they will eat up time better spent on other things, potentially cause issues in strange ports, etc.

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I disagree that the question is simple, at least for her, because she is "really really hoping" Roland would say yes:

"Are you my father?" she asked the shinny prince, really really hoping he would say yes.

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The question is really loaded, there are heaps of things she means behind the question's literal meaning, and it's exactly because of that that I think we should make some step forward to her, not just provide her with literal facts. With her that would not be too much, too fast, with her that would be exactly right. It's clear how we she respond to us just stating the facts and it's clear how she will respond if we try to make a connection with her, and the 2nd response is much better for us, both in the short term and in the long run. If you're against offering adoptive siblinghood / something to all of them, we can offer it just to her, in such a way that will leave the door open for the same offer to others?

And it's premature to conclude that there definitely will be no use from them, their situation is not that fundamentally different from the group of otter-kin who decided to travel with us, we got 1 PC from otter-kin, there is a chance we may get one from the Changelings, and a Changeling PC can be useful. Case in point, the girl is already adept in blending in with the crowd, having been doing it most if her life.

These Changelings, even if children, not so helpless that they can't do things and can't work, and if we can make them do useful things and some work, we should, it won't be OOC for Roland. Hey, given that we are explicitly told they are more mature for their age because of who they are, if I'm not mistaken they are of an age when the children can be expected to do things, commoners work and nobles squiring. And we are not obligated to keep them always as a group, we can leave some at Wayfarer's Respite and take some with us.

We don't know their previous circumstances, expectations, beliefs, but, an important point, we know these and can deduce these at least for the girl from her interlude, she wants to belong and she wants to have someone caring for her. And because of that if we'll accept her, she will cling to Roland and he would be in a prime position to influence her and to a certain extent shape her expectations and beliefs. And because she is on not bad terms with her siblings, through her we can influence them. And because we will be able to influence them and educate them, we will be able to reduce amount of bad things we'll get from them and increase amount of use we can get from them.

Just from a practical standpoint, it's exactly because making a step forward to her will allow us to influence her and her siblings that I'm proposing that, this is a once-in-a-time opportunity to turn them from a probable burden to probable opportunity, or at least make them neutral. Let's not just treat them like mushrooms to be fed and kept in the dark and be left alone otherwise, this approach is bound to get us problems wherever they will be, at Wayfarer's Respite or elsewhere. If we don't somehow manage these easily bored shapeshifting children, there will be problems, and this right here we are presented with a powerful lever we can use for that if we'll just take it.

I'm not discounting possibility that I'm seeing things that are not there, but it's just so clear to me, this single step now can be pivotal for months of future events, or even longer. And if we'll miss this opportunity, it will be gone.

I guess, @Snowfire, help us, you're our only hope? Sorry for tagging you when you aren't in the quest for that long, obviously free to just ignore, but it would be good to hear you opinion if you can provide one.

 

[Goldfish]

I disagree that the question is simple, at least for her, because she is "really really hoping" Roland would say yes:

The question is really loaded, there are heaps of things she means behind the question's literal meaning, and it's exactly because of that that I think we should make some step forward to her, not just provide her with literal facts. With her that would not be too much, too fast, with her that would be exactly right. It's clear how we she respond to us just stating the facts and it's clear how she will respond if we try to make a connection with her, and the 2nd response is much better for us, both in the short term and in the long run. If you're against offering adoptive siblinghood / something to all of them, we can offer it just to her, in such a way that will leave the door open for the same offer to others?

And it's premature to conclude that there definitely will be no use from them, their situation is not that fundamentally different from the group of otter-kin who decided to travel with us, we got 1 PC from otter-kin, there is a chance we may get one from the Changelings, and a Changeling PC can be useful. Case in point, the girl is already adept in blending in with the crowd, having been doing it most if her life.

These Changelings, even if children, not so helpless that they can't do things and can't work, and if we can make them do useful things and some work, we should, it won't be OOC for Roland. Hey, given that we are explicitly told they are more mature for their age because of who they are, if I'm not mistaken they are of an age when the children can be expected to do things, commoners work and nobles squiring. And we are not obligated to keep them always as a group, we can leave some at Wayfarer's Respite and take some with us.

We don't know their previous circumstances, expectations, beliefs, but, an important point, we know these and can deduce these at least for the girl from her interlude, she wants to belong and she wants to have someone caring for her. And because of that if we'll accept her, she will cling to Roland and he would be in a prime position to influence her and to a certain extent shape her expectations and beliefs. And because she is on not bad terms with her siblings, through her we can influence them. And because we will be able to influence them and educate them, we will be able to reduce amount of bad things we'll get from them and increase amount of use we can get from them.

Just from a practical standpoint, it's exactly because making a step forward to her will allow us to influence her and her siblings that I'm proposing that, this is a once-in-a-time opportunity to turn them from a probable burden to probable opportunity, or at least make them neutral. Let's not just treat them like mushrooms to be fed and kept in the dark and be left alone otherwise, this approach is bound to get us problems wherever they will be, at Wayfarer's Respite or elsewhere. If we don't somehow manage these easily bored shapeshifting children, there will be problems, and this right here we are presented with a powerful lever we can use for that if we'll just take it.

I'm not discounting possibility that I'm seeing things that are not there, but it's just so clear to me, this single step now can be pivotal for months of future events, or even longer. And if we'll miss this opportunity, it will be gone.

I guess, @Snowfire, help us, you're our only hope? Sorry for tagging you when you aren't in the quest for that long, obviously free to just ignore, but it would be good to hear you opinion if you can provide one.

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Just because the question is simple doesn't mean the answer to it will be.

It is too early to make many assumptions about the children beyond generalities based on their size, education or lack thereof, and physical age. That's all I'm doing so far. We don't even know how old they are, merely that the youngest is 6 and the oldest 10. That's a huge difference. Maybe Ooloa is the 10 year old and she'll be mature enough to stay aboard without making a nuisance of herself? There are still many weeks of sailing ahead of us before we reach Orinilu and then likely at least two or three weeks before we set sail again. That's a lot of time to learn more about the kids.

I'm still opposed to just shoehorning Roland in as a father figure for them. That just doesn't feel natural at all, nor something Roland would do lightly or at the spur of the moment.

Give it a bit of time, at the very least.

 

[silvanknight]

[X] Goldfish

 

[Snowfire]

I'm sorry life has been too much to keep up with this lately. Tl;dr this for me please?

 

[Annatar]

I'm sorry life has been too much to keep up with this lately. Tl;dr this for me please?

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Got some baby changelings foisted on us, one thinks we're her dad and really really wants that to be true so now we need someone who can do Social Fu to fix this before it becomes an issue.

 

[myrix]

I'm sorry life has been too much to keep up with this lately. Tl;dr this for me please?

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Just latest update, we had to take 5 half-human, half-Protean Changeling children aged from 7 to 10, and the one who has the latest update as her interlude is asking Roland if he is her father, because she is all alone and has not had the best life yet wants to belong.

I'm of the opinion that we should make at least some step forward to her, leaving the door open for deeper relationship, not just impersonally state that we are not the father and that they are now in our care. That would really help our relationship with them and mitigate any problems we can get from their chaosy nature.

Because look at these, how we can leave this unadressed?

It was so great meeting folks who were like her that she did not really care.

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she had remembered her mother and thought about how lonely she would be with no one there.

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She had cried a bit until one of her younger siblings taught her how to turn into someone who was not sad. It sounded a bit little at first she was still her under the skin, but it worked... kinda... maybe worked for today.

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she had thought that maybe it was the ship of the pearl prince and he would get to meet her father...

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but if the shinny prince wanted them that maybe meant:

"Are you my father?" she asked the shinny prince, really really hoping he would say yes.

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[Snowfire]

Hmmmm.

Do we know who their father actually is?

 

[myrix]

Hmmmm.

Do we know who their father actually is?

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Yeah, a Protean naunet who we made this deal with, he forced them on us as a recompense for attacking him because we had to do it as part of unrelated thing, freeing Ansefu king of Lirman.

 

[Goldfish]

Hmmmm.

Do we know who their father actually is?

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Spoiler: Naunet

This is the dad. Not exactly father of the year material.

I think we should start off with truth and go from there. This is a bunch of kids in really unusual circumstances surrounded by strangers, and the situation is just as odd for Roland and company. It's too soon to make promises, to take the role of father figure, etc.

[X] Kneel before the children to look them in the eye and answer, "No, little one, that honor belongs to another. My name is Roland. Your father entrusted you and your siblings into my care, for he knows he is not well suited to such a task but wishes the best for each of you."

 

[myrix]

At least maybe some additional affirmation that they are somewhat wanted and will be cared for, and not just because we have to, but because we want to? Give the children the personal connection they might want and probably need, at least the girl is in desperate need of that.

Like add something like "I will now care for you, hopefully as much as a father could."?

 

[Shine]

and a Changeling PC can be useful.

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Inge is extremely young, and in my opinion we generally should try to avoid getting her into too dangerous fights because of that, but she is also literally channeling the blessings of a powerful deity to protect her. These almost still toddlers don't have that going for them, and so I'd rather keep them far out of harm's way.

Very far our of harm's way.

 

[myrix]

Inge is extremely young, and in my opinion we generally should try to avoid getting her into too dangerous fights because of that, but she is also literally challenging the blessings of a powerful deity to protect her. These almost still toddlers don't have that going for them, and so I'd rather keep them far out of harm's way.

Very far our of harm's way.

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I fully agree that we should not get them into fights, not now and even not in a couple of years, but with everything else it's not so clear cut. They are more mature because of who they are and how they lived the last portion of their lives, and the eldest ones could be of help in a year or two or three with proper training, e.g. for social situations and gathering info.

Underage and young-aged rogues are a trope, and these have their inherent racial advantages.

And obviously only if any of them will express an explicit desire to help in a more active way.

But to have a possibility for that, we have to engage them, and better to start doing that as early as possible. And engagement helps mitigate any possible bad things we might have from them because of their chaosy nature and/or upbringing.

 

[Snowfire]

So a sleepy Snowbrain says that they're broadly searching for certainty and comfort. Whilst being truthful is good, blending that with hope is even better. We're broadly - I'm guessing here - pledged to care and protect for these kids. If nothing else, Christian morality is going to push at Roland very hard to provide them a home where they all can grow up safely. After all a true Knight cares for the lost, the weak and the forsaken without question - and these kids are all three.

So I think be more offering of care in the addition to the truth. Something like:

"Not of blood nor bone, child, but other ways perhaps. Your true father entrusted you all to my care, for he recognises his nature as ill-suited to bringing you happiness. So I give you my word that I shall do all I might to help you find that simple thing.

"If that makes me a father, I suppose it is up to you. But for now, it is my very fine pleasure to meet you, and I ask you to call me Roland."

I wanted to add something about pledges or vows but idk if y'all made any to their father.

 

[myrix]

[X] "Not of blood nor bone, child, but other ways perhaps. Your true father entrusted you all to my care, for he recognises his nature as ill-suited to bringing you happiness. So I give you my word that I shall do all I might to help you find that simple thing. If that makes me a father, I suppose it is up to you. But for now, it is my very fine pleasure to meet you, and I ask you to call me Roland."

Thank you, that's better, and addresses my main point of contention, any arguments of getting any use of them is actually second priority to that and don't matter much.

 

[Shine]

Depending on how many there are, we may or may not be able to take them with us.
7-10 age bracket is Very Young, but it's not impossibly young and I'm sure Roland, Esha, Zaia and Antonio could find use for the eldest as apprentices to help them with day to day business. Additionally, under the direct protection of one of the most powerful warbands on this side of the Pacific, they would be fairly safe.

The issue is then we'd be raising children, which Is Pretty Hard.

I definitely don't want to split them either, but if we leave them at our home base:
1. Someone might come for them, and with enough magic to make their prospects look pretty bad.
2. We'd effectively be handing them off again, even with the best of intentions, and they've had it miserable enough already.
But if there are enough of them, like more than five, we may have no choice in the matter. A half dozen children and not enough hands to look after them while going about our daily business isn't a good idea on a ship.

I suppose I'd probably advocate for keeping them here, with us directly, largely out of fear of some monster hunter getting the idea of a Van Helsing hate crime into their heads once they catch wind of the shapeshifting face stealing Demi-spirits.

Edit: Also, 13 is still a bit young. I know squires rode alongside their masters at that age, but they also trained their entire life to do so as part of their being the chivalric warrior nobility. These children… less so.

 

[myrix]

But if there are enough of them, like more than five, we may have no choice in the matter.

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They are five:

for five of my get

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So it's borderline, but still probably better for them to be with us.

 

[Shine]

Oh thank goodness.
One for every adult PC, excluding Wanderer and Silver.
(Sorry Tom.)

 

[Snowfire]

So to be clear, if we were entrusted these kids and asked/told/whatever to protect them I'd see it as highly OOC for Roland to let them go to someone else.

Also they go to the home base and get to grow up as kids. That'll only be a few years for the oldest but by starlight and thunder you will give these kids their child-years or I will make you regret it.

 

[Shine]

That'll only be a few years for the oldest but by starlight and thunder you will give these kids their child-years or I will make you regret it.

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Look, all I want to do is keep them safe.
The direct protection and apprenticeships to some of the most talented people in.. I have no idea, but in quite a wide radius is safer than our slightly undermanned outpost, because of magic.
I promise, unlike Myrix, I'm not planning to use them as scouts. I just think the safety or educational advantages of sailing with us are worth hauling them along.

 

[Goldfish]

So to be clear, if we were entrusted these kids and asked/told/whatever to protect them I'd see it as highly OOC for Roland to let them go to someone else.

Also they go to the home base and get to grow up as kids. That'll only be a few years for the oldest but by starlight and thunder you will give these kids their child-years or I will make you regret it.

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Here's how it went down:

He changes manner quick as an eel between your fingers, though not as you had expected. Instead of charging one of you the false Ansefu shrugs and says. "Fine then I need a warm dry place for five of my get to live as men, they are man-like in the main, though they can at least slip off a face or two and they would go mad with boredom without the company of their near fellows, some place near the shore."

<skipping over a bit of non-relevant text>

A spike of pain races across your temples and you wish that you could blame the glare of the sun on the waves. "A bargain then, we will care for your children as best we are able... or see them cared for. Speaking of that...."

By the time the last word was out of your mouth 'Ansefu' is already gone, diving over the side of the ship with the grace of an uncoiling serpent. "I'll send them by dusk."

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You can practically feel the parental concern dripping off of this dude, right? /sarcasm

So it's borderline, but still probably better for them to be with us.

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It really isn't. Young children are a handful to deal with in the best of circumstances. They require near constant supervision and guidance. Marcella is not a floating daycare center. Are we going to hire a nanny to sail with us now to look after the Changelings? They're kids, and even well-behaved kids are generally awful. We'll have to worry about them going overboard, climbing the rigging because they're bored, getting kicked in the head by a horse because they were too curious, messing with Alchemical stuff Zaia and Inge are brewing, etc, etc, etc. They need a stable environment and we cannot give them that at sea. We can, however, make sure they're comfortable and well cared for at Wayfarer's Respite.

Plan edited a bit. Nothing wrong with @Snowfire's except I don't feel like Roland would jump to making that sort of declaration so quickly, and the language is a bit complex for young Commoner children from Lirman.

[X] Kneel before the children to look them in the eye and answer, "No, little one, that honor belongs to another. My name is Roland. Your father entrusted you and your siblings into my care, for he knows he is not well suited to such a task but wishes the best for each of you."
-[X] With a smile, Roland continues, "We have many weeks of sailing ahead of us, so there will have plenty of time to learn about one another. Why don't we start with your names?"

 

[Shine]

We can, however, make sure they're comfortable and well cared for at Wayfarer's Respite.

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Can we, though?
Like, as you said these are shapeshifitng young children. If we leave them at the Respite it'll only be a matter of time before *someone* local realises we're housing small shapeshifters.
What happens then? We'd be far, far too distant to intervene or even know about it, and if someone seriously comes for them our staff and two or three armsmen won't be enough.

Even without a living ship, just being with us is far better protection than our wooden fort.

 

[Goldfish]

Can we, though?
Like, as you said these are shapeshifitng young children. If we leave them at the Respite it'll only be a matter of time before *someone* local realises we're housing small shapeshifters.
What happens then? We'd be far, far too distant to intervene or even know about it, and if someone seriously comes for them our staff and two or three armsmen won't be enough.

Even without a living ship, just being with us is far better protection than our wooden fort.

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They should be safe at Wayfarer's Respite. Not everyone is as superstitious as a bunch of Anwari Commoners, and magic is hardly unknown around Orinilu. The kids can use a limited form of Alter Self to change their appearance, something Zaia could do right now if he drank the right extract, and he could do it far better, if for a much more limited amount of time. We aren't without friends around Orinilu, and we can easily do a bit of information gathering to get a good understanding of attitudes toward such things before we depart.

All that said, I do not want this quest to become 'Childcare Simulator, Deathworld Edition'. There is no way that having five Changeling children living on Marcella 24/7 wouldn't end up with them getting involved with all sorts of shit, to the detriment of everything else.