Age of Ice and Blood: A Pathfinder System Heroic Fantasy Quest

[DragonParadox]

About changing archetypes, keep in mind that both diplomacy and sense motive were really useful for making your life easier this turn. Courtly Knight did do work as seen in those non-combat wins up there.

*really goes to bed this time*

 

[Goldfish]

We already have Combat Reflexes?

And I'm sorry, I just don't see this. We've been leaning on diplomacy hard ever since we got here. Retraining out of it makes negative sense to me.

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Oops, total brain fart.

I copy/pasted that in instead of putting Mounted Combat like I intended to. Fixed now.

I still think we should drop Courtly Knight, but you and DP have a point, it has been useful up to this point. I'll change my plan to retraining a feat instead.

About changing archetypes, keep in mind that both diplomacy and sense motive were really useful for making your life easier this turn. Courtly Knight did do work as seen in those non-combat wins up there.

*really goes to bed this time*

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Even Dragons must sleep, DP!

 

[Snowfire]

Oops, total brain fart.

I copy/pasted that in instead of putting Mounted Combat like I intended to. Fixed now.

I still think we should drop Courtly Knight, but you and DP have a point, it has been useful up to this point. I'll change my plan to retraining a feat instead.

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That change I can agree to! We'll also get Bodyguard this level via Honour Guard so we can start AC-buffing with AoOs.

[X] Goldfish

 

[Goldfish]

That change I can agree to! We'll also get Bodyguard this level via Honour Guard so we can start AC-buffing with AoOs.

[X] Goldfish

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With Mounted Combat gained this level up, I think we should probably go for Ride-By Attack at 5th level. It's too useful for a mounted attacker not to have. After that, no more feats should be invested in mounted combat, IMO, at least not for a while. There are too many solid feats we need to shore up Roland's basic combat abilities. That's a while off, though, so nothing to worry about for now.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

With Mounted Combat gained this level up, I think we should probably go for Ride-By Attack at 5th level. It's too useful for a mounted attacker not to have. After that, no more feats should be invested in mounted combat, IMO, at least not for a while. There are too many solid feats we need to shore up Roland's basic combat abilities. That's a while off, though, so nothing to worry about for now.

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Stopping one short of Spirited Charge?

That's the Mounted Combat feat.

Could trade Noble Scion for Mounted Combat and pick Ride-By now.

Does our horse have a sheet? He could Bodyguard us as well.

Better yet, trade Combat Reflexes if we are aiming for that -1 DEX +1 STR.

 

[Goldfish]

Stopping one short of Spirited Charge?

That's the Mounted Combat feat.

Could trade Noble Scion for Mounted Combat and pick, Ride-By now.

Does our horse have a sheet? He could Bodyguard us as well.

Better yet, trade Combat Reflexes if we are aiming for that -1 DEX +1 STR.

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Forgot about that one. Still not sure if I would rather us pick it up before other essentials, though. Not all combat is going to be from horseback, after all.

I've got Improved Initiative slotted in to replace Noble Scion instead of Ride-By Attack because I don't want to tank our Initiative, which is an all around helpful boost, whether we're fighting on horseback or not. We would go from a +3 to a +1, and that's pretty shitty all things considered. With Improved Initiative, however, we go from +3 to +5. In another level up DP might let us do something with our traits. Changing Cooperative Combatant to Reactionary would be another nice +2 Initiative bonus.

EDIT: Silver doesn't have a sheet yet. I don't want to lose Combat Reflexes for the same reason I don't want to hyper focus on mounted combat.

 

[Blacknight]

[X] The chance to reflect and change (3000 XP towards next level -> Level UP + the chance to change one of your feats, reassign 2 skill points or change and archetype)

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Forgot about that one. Still not sure if I would rather us pick it up before other essentials, though. Not all combat is going to be from horseback, after all.

I've got Improved Initiative slotted in to replace Noble Scion instead of Ride-By Attack because I don't want to tank our Initiative, which is an all around helpful boost, whether we're fighting on horseback or not. We would go from a +3 to a +1, and that's pretty shitty all things considered. With Improved Initiative, however, we go from +3 to +5. In another level up DP might let us do something with our traits. Changing Cooperative Combatant to Reactionary would be another nice +2 Initiative bonus.

EDIT: Silver doesn't have a sheet yet. I don't want to lose Combat Reflexes for the same reason I don't want to hyper focus on mounted combat.

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Yeah, but Combat Reflexes with DEX 13 isn't terribly useful.

By switching it out, we can keep Noble Scion, which while not as good as Improved Initiative still does something very nice for every combat, while Reflexes' will only occasionally trigger.

And we'd be able to ride-by-attack now.

For Silver, we can pick up Light Armor Proficiency (which comes as bonus), Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard (1st and 3rd), alongside the Bodyguard Archetype on Silver. As a Heavy Horse, he is much, much better able to use it than we are, with his DEX 18.

Something like this:

[X] Roland Level Up & Retraining
-[X] Attributes: If DP allows this as previous discussed
--[X] -1 DEX, +1 STR; STR becomes 13 and DEX becomes 12 (no mechanical effect at this time and unlikely to become relevant until 4th level)
-[X] Class: +1 Cavalier (Order of the Dragon) [Archetype: Courtly Knight, Honor Guard]
-[X] Favored Class Bonus: +1 Hit Point
-[X] Skills (6 points): +1 Diplomacy, +1 Handle Animal, +1 Perception, +1 Sense Motive, +2 Ride
-[X] Feats: Ride-by-Attack
--[X] Retrain: Combat Reflexes >>> Mounted Combat
-[X] Silver (3 HD)
--[X] Bodyguard Archetype
--[X] Feats: Run (B), Light Armor Proficiency (B), Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard
--[X] Skills: Perception 2 ranks, Swim 1 rank

@edit: By adjusting STR we can pick up PA now. That's a big load off in the matter of "being good at fighting". Going through 3 and 4 while hitting folks for 4~5 damage once a round... Is less than ideal. Specially at fourth.

 

[Snowfire]

Retraining Combat Reflexes nukes Bodyguard as something we can ever effectively use - and yes it can be effective. And the narrative issues of that are frankly kinda huge.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Retraining Combat Reflexes nukes Bodyguard as something we can ever effectively use - and yes it can be effective. And the narrative issues of that are frankly kinda huge.

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Yes, it can be effective.

It just will never be for Roland. Because he has 13 DEX.

Silver, OTOH, can do it massively better. And in-character, the build actually working when he is atop his horse does work out well.

I don't see the huge narrative issues with that. Matter of fact, it works much better that the Protector Knight is actually so when he is atop his trusty steed.

And it's not like Bodyguard is unuseable without Combat Reflexes. We can use it by ourselves 1/round instead of 2/round.

Here's an alternative take: we can pick it up again when we have found something that'd let us use it half as well as Silver can. Maybe we will find bets or gloves of +2 DEX in the future, a future where our only leveling option is "more feats".

There's also the secondary issue of us not having STR 13 making us incapable of picking up Power Attack. I'm not voting to pick it up now because I don't know if DP will go for the STR/DEX rearranging.

 

[Goldfish]

Yes, it can be effective.

It just will never be for Roland. Because he has 13 DEX.

Silver, OTOH, can do it massively better. And in-character, the build actually working when he is atop his horse does work out well.

I don't see the huge narrative issues with that. Matter of fact, it works much better that the Protector Knight is actually so when he is atop his trusty steed.

And it's not like Bodyguard is unuseable without Combat Reflexes. We can use it by ourselves 1/round instead of 2/round.

Here's an alternative take: we can pick it up again when we have found something that'd let us use it half as well as Silver can. Maybe we will find bets or gloves of +2 DEX in the future, a future where our only leveling option is "more feats".

There's also the secondary issue of us not having STR 13 making us incapable of picking up Power Attack. I'm not voting to pick it up now because I don't know if DP will go for the STR/DEX rearranging.

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Thankfully, we're using the EitR rules, so we don't need to pick up Power Attack. It's just something we can use at will.

As for Combat Reflexes, increasing his potential AoO by +1 might not be huge, but that still effectively doubles his AoO per round. That's not too shabby when you only have one regular attack per round.

 

[Goldfish]

Yeah, but Combat Reflexes with DEX 13 isn't terribly useful.

By switching it out, we can keep Noble Scion, which while not as good as Improved Initiative still does something very nice for every combat, while Reflexes' will only occasionally trigger.

And we'd be able to ride-by-attack now.

For Silver, we can pick up Light Armor Proficiency (which comes as bonus), Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard (1st and 3rd), alongside the Bodyguard Archetype on Silver. As a Heavy Horse, he is much, much better able to use it than we are, with his DEX 18.

Something like this:

[X] Roland Level Up & Retraining
-[X] Attributes: If DP allows this as previous discussed
--[X] -1 DEX, +1 STR; STR becomes 13 and DEX becomes 12 (no mechanical effect at this time and unlikely to become relevant until 4th level)
-[X] Class: +1 Cavalier (Order of the Dragon) [Archetype: Courtly Knight, Honor Guard]
-[X] Favored Class Bonus: +1 Hit Point
-[X] Skills (6 points): +1 Diplomacy, +1 Handle Animal, +1 Perception, +1 Sense Motive, +2 Ride
-[X] Feats: Power Attack (if STR/DEX is adjusted), Ride-by-Attack (otherwise)
--[X] Retrain: Combat Reflexes >>> Mounted Combat
-[X] Silver (3 HD)
--[X] Bodyguard Archetype
--[X] Feats: Run (B), Light Armor Proficiency (B), Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard
--[X] Skills: Perception 2 ranks, Swim 1 rank

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I'm adding the Silver level up to my plan, too.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Thankfully, we're using the EitR rules, so we don't need to pick up Power Attack. It's just something we can use at will.

As for Combat Reflexes, increasing his potential AoO by +1 might not be huge, but that still effectively doubles his AoO per round. That's not too shabby when you only have one regular attack per round.

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Well, thank god for EitR.

Yeah, but the opponent has to actually trigger those. 5 ft steps, casting defensively and other shenanigans all work to make it trigger much less often.

Would you rather have the possibility of an extra AoO, or the ability to Ride-by-Attack? Yes, once in a while the extra attack (or use of Bodyguard) will be nice. But Ride-by is an entirely new capability, and a very powerful one at that.

Ride-by also gates Spirited Charge, which is the defining feat of a mounted build.

There's also the fact that swapping STR and DEX disqualifies us for Combat Reflexes. And we really should go for STR 14.

 

[Snowfire]

Well, thank god for EitR.

Yeah, but the opponent has to actually trigger those. 5 ft steps, casting defensively and other shenanigans all work to make it trigger much less often.

Would you rather have the possibility of an extra AoO, or the ability to Ride-by-Attack? Yes, once in a while the extra attack (or use of Bodyguard) will be nice. But Ride-by is an entirely new capability, and a very powerful one at that.

There's also the fact that swapping STR and DEX disqualifies us for Combat Reflexes. And we really should go for STR 14.

Ride-by also gates Spirited Charge, which is the defining feat of a mounted build.

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Or y'know, double the bodyguard uses to prevent people around us from dying. You're really remarkably good at justifying mechanical changes, but your fluff just doesn't do it for me.

And going all-in on a mounted build is just all kinds of questionable as hell. It is so, so very easy to remove mounted combat as an option via terrain, leaving aside how Silver will always be extremely vulnerable to being sniped. And narratively it still doesn't cut it. Most of our combat this arc was afoot.

 

[Goldfish]

There's also the fact that swapping STR and DEX disqualifies us for Combat Reflexes. And we really should go for STR 14.

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We would still be able to use Combat Reflexes, though. Minimum Dexterity for it to be useful is 12.

I do want to pick up Ride-By Attack, I just think we can wait for it. Combat Reflexes, while not always useful, is going to be applicable in more situatuons, IMO.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

We would still be able to use Combat Reflexes, though. Minimum Dexterity for it to be useful is 12.

I do want to pick up Ride-By Attack, I just think we can wait for it. Combat Reflexes, while not always useful, is going to be applicable in more situatuons, IMO.

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Huh, for some reason I had it in my head that it required DEX 13.

Or y'know, double the bodyguard uses to prevent people around us from dying. You're really remarkably good at justifying mechanical changes, but your fluff just doesn't do it for me.

And going all-in on a mounted build is just all kinds of questionable as hell. It is so, so very easy to remove mounted combat as an option via terrain, leaving aside how Silver will always be extremely vulnerable to being sniped. And narratively it still doesn't cut it. Most of our combat this arc was afoot.

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Silver is much tougher than we are.

Yes, if someone adjacent to us gets attacked twice in a row, we will only be able to Bodyguard once. I don't see that as a big deal, tbh. If we are mounted, Silver is a Bodyguarding machine. If we aren't, we aren't as good, but we can still do it.

In my head, it's only fitting that a knight gets battlefield renown for what he accomplishes on a horse ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But EitR and Combat Reflexes not stopping us from re-jigging STR/DEX does make it way more viable. I was going under the assumption that it was Combat Reflexes or STR 14, but not both.

I still think it's wasteful, as Ride-by is really very nice, and Spirited Charge is downright amazing. But it not stopping us from getting baseline good at hitting things (which I'd consider to be STR 14 and PA) makes it not painful.

 

[TonedMite]

What is EitR?

 

[Goldfish]

What is EitR?

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The Elephant is in the Room.

Basically, it removes the need for several gateway feats that were generally considered a feat tax to progress into many more successful combat builds. Instead, they're considered automatic abilities that are part of a character's repertoire.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Really, our horse is so much better than us at fighting it's not even funny

Silver

Spoiler

Heavy Horse (Combat Trained, Bodyguard Archetype)
N Large animal
Init +4; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+4 Dex, –1 size, +4 natural, +4 chainshirt)
hp 32 (3d8+15)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +4 (+2 vs Fear, +4 on subsequent rounds if allowed)

OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +6 (1d4+5), 2 hooves +6 (1d6+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 19, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +9; CMD 22 (26 vs. trip)
Feats Run (B), Light Armor Proficiency (B), Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard
Skills Perception +8, Swim +7 (w/ ACP)

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Tricks: attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel, Get Help, Calm

Shared Vigilance (Ex): Both a bodyguard and its master gain Alertness as a bonus feat whenever they are adjacent.

Tenacious Guardian (Ex): At 3rd level, a bodyguard can always act in a surprise round (though it remains flat-footed until it acts). As long as its master is adjacent, a bodyguard remains conscious (though it becomes staggered) when its hit points fall below 0. While below 0 hit points, the bodyguard loses 1 hit point per round but gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, dying only if its hit points reach a negative total equal to its Constitution score plus its master's class level.

Link (Ex): A Cavalier can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn't have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The Cavalier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Like I said, much tougher than us.

Do we have barding for it? It could really rock a Chain Shirt. Even a much simpler Studded Leather set would be great. @edit: added

@Goldfish I suggest adding the Calm trick and something else. Maybe Get Help?

 

[Goldfish]

Really, our horse is so much better than us at fighting it's not even funny

Silver

Spoiler

Heavy Horse (Combat Trained, Bodyguard Archetype)
N Large animal
Init +4; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 13 (+4 Dex, –1 size, +4 natural)
hp 32 (3d8+15)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +4

OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +6 (1d4+5), 2 hooves +6 (1d6+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 21, Dex 19, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +9; CMD 22 (26 vs. trip)
Feats Run (B), Light Armor Proficiency (B), Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard
Skills Perception +8, Swim +9

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Tricks: attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel, +2

Shared Vigilance (Ex): Both a bodyguard and its master gain Alertness as a bonus feat whenever they are adjacent.

Tenacious Guardian (Ex): At 3rd level, a bodyguard can always act in a surprise round (though it remains flat-footed until it acts). As long as its master is adjacent, a bodyguard remains conscious (though it becomes staggered) when its hit points fall below 0. While below 0 hit points, the bodyguard loses 1 hit point per round but gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, dying only if its hit points reach a negative total equal to its Constitution score plus its master's class level.

Link (Ex): A Cavalier can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn't have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The Cavalier gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Like I said, much tougher than us.

Do we have barding for it? It could really rock a Chain Shirt. Even a much simpler Studded Leather set would be great.

@Goldfish I suggest adding the Calm trick and something else. Maybe Get Help?

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Yes, but Roland has thumbs, so it roughly balances out.

I'll add the tricks to my plan. Any chance I could get you to switch over to mine as well? Votes are kinda all over the place right now.

EDIT: Yes, Silver has Chain Shirt Barding.

[X] The chance to reflect and change (3000 XP towards next level -> Level UP + the chance to change one of your feats, reassign 2 skill points or change and archetype)

[X] Roland Level Up & Retraining
-[X] Attributes: If DP allows this as previous discussed
--[X] Swap Strength and Dexterity attributes; STR becomes 13 and DEX becomes 12
-[X] Class: +1 Cavalier (Order of the Dragon) [Archetype: Courtly Knight, Honor Guard]
-[X] Favored Class Bonus: +1 Hit Point
-[X] Skills (6 points): +1 Diplomacy, +1 Handle Animal, +1 Perception, +1 Sense Motive, +2 Ride
-[X] Feats: Mounted Combat
--[X] Retrain: Noble Scion of War >>> Improved Initiative
-[X] Silver (3 HD) - w/Chain Shirt Barding (+4 AC)
--[X] Bodyguard Archetype
--[X] Feats: Run (B), Light Armor Proficiency (B), Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard
--[X] Skills: Perception 2 ranks, Swim 1 rank
--[X] Tricks: Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Guard, Heel, Calm, Get Help

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

It's telling how the majority of our strenght is in sharing a class feature with a Druid

 

[Goldfish]

It's telling how the majority of our strenght is in sharing a class feature with a Druid

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Surprisingly enough, I'm cool with us not being a combat powerhouse. We'll get there eventually, as we gain additional feats and optimize our build, but there is no great hurry.

Let's just enjoy the journey and exploring the world for a while.

 

[Raichu1972]

[] Glimpses of the world beyond the veil of the mundane, a touch of power that lingers (1000 XP towards next level -> Level UP + the ability to choose the feat Fey Foundling)

Argh, so tempting. I really want Roland to start exploring magic and how it affects the world around him, but would really prefer he have no association with the Fae of all things.

 

[Goldfish]

[] Glimpses of the world beyond the veil of the mundane, a touch of power that lingers (1000 XP towards next level -> Level UP + the ability to choose the feat Fey Foundling)

Argh, so tempting. I really want Roland to start exploring magic and how it affects the world around him, but would really prefer he have no association with the Fae of all things.

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Agreed. Screw the Fey. I also don't want him to pick up that weakness to Cold Iron. I have a feeling that would come back to bite us in the ass later.

Thankfully, there are plenty of alternative ways to be introduced to magic.

 

[Raichu1972]

Agreed. Screw the Fey. I also don't want him to pick up that weakness to Cold Iron. I have a feeling that would come back to bite us in the ass later.

Thankfully, there are plenty of alternative ways to be introduced to magic.

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Somewhat ironically, I think Roland would fit really good with bardic magic. Being the hype man/leader who buffs his party and all.