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A true hero... in training (Pokemon Gym Leader's apprentice quest)

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Paroni said:
I'm all for offering a chance for the Shinx, but I'm a bit unsure about this other thing in your post:

Pokemon getting the benefits of some abilities without actually having to use an ability slot to get said benefit.

We already have a system where any pokemon with teeth can bite, but they need to train and allocate a move slot to be able to "Bite (move)". Having the same system work with abilities as well sounds pretty good to me. However, you are suggesting that we should have a different system for abilities instead. With your model, if the pokemon doesn't touch the ground it can't just levitate but actually "Levitate (ability)" without using an ability slot, thus giving them immunity to ground type moves for free.

I think this is unnecessary, as the old system is good enough. It allows for any pokemon to try and limit an Earthquake's effect by somehow getting off the ground, but it doesn't allow a power creep and balance crash by allowing some pokemon to effectively get 5 or more abilities.
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I think what he's trying to say is pretty much in line with the "every pokemon can bite but not all have the bite move" logic. As in, if a pokemon can levitate/fly/float/whatever by lore, then saying it can't levitate away from an earthquake because it doesn't have an ability that specifically says it can do it makes little sense. It just so happens that that bit of applied logic makes the ability that specifically allows this redundant, so there would be no point in getting it. (I mean, I guess one could rule it that having the levitate ability means they can draw on the plane of energy to support their flight thus getting effectively infinite stamina for it, while a pokemon without the ability might have to eventually touch the ground to recover their stamina?)

Similairly, unless you're fireproof, punching lava should hurt you, even if the lava doesn't have an ability giving it a 30% chance of setting you on fire.

Although, Levitate might be a bad example for the principle, seeing how I don't think most pokemon with the Levitate ability even can get other abilities, so they pretty much need to take it by default. So this would only affect what? A couple of bug types like Beedrill that can't be flying type because they already have a second type? (poison most of the time)
 
If we're going to be making judgments based off of the things the Pokedex entries say that certain species can do, I think we should get Lux to make a call on that first.

Personally, I'm pretty sure that the abilities are needed, as shown by Latias and Latios having Levitate despite being Pokemon that literally cannot walk on the ground.
 
Paroni said:
I'm all for offering a chance for the Shinx, but I'm a bit unsure about this other thing in your post:

Pokemon getting the benefits of some abilities without actually having to use an ability slot to get said benefit.

We already have a system where any pokemon with teeth can bite, but they need to train and allocate a move slot to be able to "Bite (move)". Having the same system work with abilities as well sounds pretty good to me. However, you are suggesting that we should have a different system for abilities instead. With your model, if the pokemon doesn't touch the ground it can't just levitate but actually "Levitate (ability)" without using an ability slot, thus giving them immunity to ground type moves for free.

I think this is unnecessary, as the old system is good enough. It allows for any pokemon to try and limit an Earthquake's effect by somehow getting off the ground, but it doesn't allow a power creep and balance crash by allowing some pokemon to effectively get 5 or more abilities.
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I'd be more like, some Pokemon have things they can do without using a move or ability slot. I wasn't trying to make a new system, but try to explain the old one more, I guess. That any Pokemon with wings, like Flygon, should be able to use them to get in the air, ability or not. Plus some Pokemon like Reunicleus are naturally floating off the ground, even though they don't have the ability Levitate.

Granted, I imagine abilities would still add more to this, Levitate probably allowing limitless flight/airtime because the pokemon being able to float is one of the intrinsic cores of it's personality/self. Or going along with the Magcargo example, a Pokemon could probably only get burned touching the lava parts of Magcargo, while Flame Body would give that property to it's rock shell as well.

Plus, I was trying to apply Luxray's x-ray vision to another anime only quality that Pokemon have, mainly ghost types being able to phase into the arena floor, or having Luxray being able to pinpoint digging Pokemon to dodge them better.

I'm not trying to crash the balance or give Pokemon 5 abilities or anything, but I am trying to keep Pokedex and anime confirmed feats in mind for describing what a Pokemon can do.

Edit: Nija'd by Edgedancer. He even got the Levitate infinite flight thing, lol:lol
 
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WildCardFool said:
If we're going to be making judgments based off of the things the Pokedex entries say that certain species can do, I think we should get Lux to make a call on that first.

Personally, I'm pretty sure that the abilities are needed, as shown by Latias and Latios having Levitate despite being Pokemon that literally cannot walk on the ground.
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i mean, yeah, most of the Pokedes stuff is bullshit, but I guess a way to determine it is see if it's true/the Pokemon is capable of it in the anime. I remember someone using a Luxray's x-ray vision in the anime, so we can reasonably determine that yeah, Luxray does have x-ray vision.

At the same time, we gotta apply some logic to this, because while I doubt Magcargo is hotter than the sun, it's body is still literally made of lava, so it should still be warm.

Of course, Lux has the final word on any of this stuff.
 
Okay I think I know what the problem is. One thing is what pokemon can do and another the abilities they have. The fact that a pokemon floats doesn't mean it has the ability. Abilities help pokemon use their power in different ways. Flying pokemon are inmune to ground and that by itself makes no sense, because you can still hit them.

The thing they are inmune to is the ground type energy.

A lot of pokemon float but they are not inmune to that type of energy. A lot of pokemon can do a lot of things but only if they have the ability it really has an effect like that. It's like moves. Any pokemon with a mouth can bite. Only a few can use the bite move.
 
[X] Just... offer them food? They look hungry.
-[X] "Hey little guys, you hungry? I don't have much, but I'll spare what I can."
-[X] If they come up close enough for you to get a look, see if any of them might have potential.

I'm not such a lover of the shinx line, but I think if a pokemon has potential then we should capitalize on the opportunity.

Another point I want to make, Luxray is 1.4m and weights 42.0kg.

I really doubt we can ride a Luxray, for comparison the Arcanine line is 1.9 m and weights an average of 155kg.

I really doubt we will be able to ride a Luxray unless he is an absolute unit!
 
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Luxicato said:
Okay I think I know what the problem is. One thing is what pokemon can do and another the abilities they have. The fact that a pokemon floats doesn't mean it has the ability. Abilities help pokemon use their power in different ways. Flying pokemon are inmune to ground and that by itself makes no sense, because you can still hit them.

The thing they are inmune to is the ground type energy.

A lot of pokemon float but they are not inmune to that type of energy. A lot of pokemon can do a lot of things but only if they have the ability it really has an effect like that. It's like moves. Any pokemon with a mouth can bite. Only a few can use the bite move.
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I'm sorry, but I don't think I follow. Do you mean something like this:
Pokemon that are flying or levitating are immune to Earthquake move because well, they are not on the ground, but can still be hit by Bonemerang, while Flying (type) pokemon and pokemon with Levitate are immune to all Ground (type) moves (e.g. both Earthquake and Bonemerang) even if they are on the ground?
 
Chopak said:
I'm sorry, but I don't think I follow. Do you mean something like this:
Pokemon that are flying or levitating are immune to Earthquake move because well, they are not on the ground, but can still be hit by Bonemerang, while Flying (type) pokemon and pokemon with Levitate are immune to all Ground (type) moves (e.g. both Earthquake and Bonemerang) even if they are on the ground?
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They are not exactly 100% inmune because it makes no sense. They are inmune to the type energy. The real power behind Bonemerang for example doesn't come from the hit, it comes from the ground type power behind it. Same with earthquake. If a pokemon throws a bonemerang with enough strength it will hurt, but it will hurt the same as if a strong human did it.

They are not inmune to the attack connecting, they are inmune to the added ground type effects.
 
Roost for example would be converting their inherent Flying energy into lifeforce to heal them during battle, so it's no longer permeating their bodies and they become vulnerable to Ground-typed energy for a brief period of time.
 
HugoR said:
Another point I want to make, Luxray is 1.4m long and weights 42.0kg.

I really doubt we can ride a Luxray, for comparison the Arcanine line is 1.9 m and weights an average of 155kg.

I really doubt we will be able to ride a Luxray unless he is an absolute unit!
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Just being pedantic and pointing out they're 1.4m tall, not long. When measuring they're height it would be the forelegs to the top of the shoulder, not the top of the head. I'm not arguing about riding a Luxray or anything.
 
Molyneux said:
Just being pedantic and pointing out they're 1.4m tall, not long. When measuring they're height it would be the forelegs to the top of the shoulder, not the top of the head. I'm not arguing about riding a Luxray or anything.
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Thanks for the correction. Once again my poor english trips me when I need it most :)
 
I'd like to add this in game description for roost from dp

The user lands and rests its body. It restores the user's HP by up to half of its max HP.

Also smack down and gravity are if i recall correctly pretty explicitly said to force the mon it is used on to the ground explaining why they can be hit by ground moves. Although that still doesnt explain magnemite & co from getting hit by eq. But i think a simpler explanation for roost is not that they get hit by ground moves because they run out of flying type for a turn, but simply that they aren't using it.
 
Kir said:
Also smack down and gravity are if i recall correctly pretty explicitly said to force the mon it is used on to the ground explaining why they can be hit by ground moves. Although that still doesnt explain magnemite & co from getting hit by eq. But i think a simpler explanation for roost is not that they get hit by ground moves because they run out of flying type for a turn, but simply that they aren't using it.
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I'd note that Magnemite doesn't actually fly that high if you shatter the ground, you'd probably hit unless it uses Magnet Rise
 
[X] Just... offer them food? They look hungry.
-[X] "Hey little guys, you hungry? I don't have much, but I'll spare what I can."
-[X] If they come up close enough for you to get a look, see if any of them might have potential.
 
Honestly I'm wondering whether Violet will take the chance to capture one of the Shinx. Unlike us she's not needing to gather the best team- and having more than one Pokémon is a security in its own right.

Probably not ready to care for more Pokémon than Lily yet admittedly.

@Luxicato What is defined as an adult tier Pokémon? Because having trouble seeing a Gyrados being let into the market.
 
I'm going to call the vote her and will start writing soon. I was going to do it hours ago but... Smash bros ultimate.
Adhoc vote count started by Luxicato on Dec 8, 2018 at 4:26 PM, finished with 741 posts and 25 votes.
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Pokemon law: The three tiers
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    • Storyteller said:
    What is defined as an adult tier Pokémon? Because having trouble seeing a Gyrados being let into the market.
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    Good question. Was wondering when someone would ask about that.

    There are three pokemon tier based on intelligence. This is used when applying laws to pokemon because even if all of them have some level of human mind, not all of them are as smart or mature as one. It's not the same a Poochyena stealing food than a Kadabra doing it. Kadabra clearly knows what he is doing and why he shouldn't.

    The three tiers are: Animal, child and adult.

    Animal tier includes all pokemon that even if they understand human orders, act more like animals. They aren't smart enough to be accountable if they do something bad, it's their trainer's fault. Most of first stage pokemon are included here.

    Child tier is the one with most pokemon. They are smart enough to understand things almost like a human. Most pokemon that evolved once and still have another evolution are included here. Almost all psychic pokemon start here by default when hatching from the egg.

    Adult tier is the one where most psychic pokemon end up after some time or when evolving. This also includes most last stage evolution. Pokemon that evolve more than once are considered mature and smart enough to land here. It's not exclusive though, pokemon that only evolve once can be included here, but this tier is more restrictive. Pokemon in this tier have benefits that other pokemon don't. They can sign contracts and even own things. They can sign to be a citizen and even marry another pokemon or a human. Most last stage psychic types are considered at the same level as humans.
     
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    Hungry Shinx
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    • You stand up to look at them a bit better. They are not looking at you, focusing on the tent where your stuff is. So they are after your food...

    You decide to start walking in their direction. You have a bag with some food left from when you feed Maelstrom before. You other hand is touching his pokeball just in case. They are wild pokemon after all… even if Maelstrom can't do much against them. They don't look strong, but they are still electric type.

    You try to remember everything you know about them. You studied about this pokemon in the academy. Easy to train and pretty friendly with humans. At least the ones with a trainer. Wild ones are a bit more… well, wild. They hunt in packs and…

    Then you freeze and look around. Are they some sort of bait? Is there a Luxray around? You are not sure if Lily can beat one of those. Pokemon don't hunt humans unless they are really desperate, but they might steal all your food… But that's better that trying to fight them.

    No, no Luxray around. No gleam of eyes, no rustling of leaves. Even if a Luxray would be pretty sneaky… A whole pack is a lot more obvious once you start to look around. These Shinx are alone.

    They look pretty young. Not even a couple months old. They shouldn't be roaming around here alone. What are they doing?

    You move closer reaching to your bag with food. You are not sure if you want to capture one or not, but you are at least curious about them. Curious enough to risk getting closer. Shinx so young don't usually have electricity, but they can give a nasty bite.

    When you step closer you hear a sound of something breaking. A branch hidden in the grass. You freeze again, the Shinx freeze too. No one sure about what to do.

    But then one of the Shinx, the one walking in front of the others, turns around and with a yell launches a bolt of electricity that lands right in front of you. It wasn't a move, not powerful, just a warning. His mouth was filled with electricity and something tells you that a bite right now would be extremely painful.

    Okay, so one of them has electricity after all. The other two just look scared of you, hiding behind that one.

    And then Lily teleported in front of you because she heard the attack and your totally not girlish yelp.

    "Back off you pest. Don't touch him!" She yelled at them, psychic powers charging. You would feel glad that she is so ready to defend you if this wasn't just a misunderstanding.

    "Wait! No…!" You started to say, but it was too late.

    The other two Shinx were too scared and their tails started to glow. The tip of their tails suddenly started to glow, blinding you and Lily. It was like a flashbang. You tried to protect your eyes but it was too late. While you were trying to recover your vision, you heard Lily yelping in pain.

    When you could see again, Lily had a burn on her arm. The Shinx's fangs on fire now, suddenly turning to ice for another attack. At that moment Lily launched a psychic attack that pushed her attacker to the ground, making impossible for him to move anymore.

    The other two Shinx don't seem ready to fight and are too scared to flee. Okay. You maybe should do something to stop the Shinx… or Lily… To stop everyone.

    You moved to stay between her and the pokemon and everyone stopped. It seems that not even Lily understood what were you trying exactly. You weren't sure either.

    "Stop. Stop." You said, trying to calm the situation. "No one needs to fight now. Can we just please… Calm down?" You looked at the Shinx that was still being held by psychic powers. He growled at you. Lily didn't seem happy either.

    "He bit me. I should just teach him a lesson and scare them off. I'm reading their mind. They want our food." She said angrily. Some of her anger directed at you now.

    With a sigh you decided to approach the Shinx. Wild pokemon are easier to reason with than Lily. You offered them the food you were carrying, putting the bag on the ground in front of them. The two scared Shinx got closer and started to eat. Lily released the hold on their leader and it looked at you. It stared for at least ten seconds before getting closer to the bag and eating too.

    They seemed… Well, they were starving, that's for sure. You are not an expert, but they don't look in the best of conditions. The two skittish ones were a bit smaller than their leader, not as strong. Pretty normal for young Shinx. Their leader was a bit different. It had good potential.


    Shinx ♂
    Electric Type
    Rank: E-
    Ability 1: Rivalry
    Trait 1: Teamwork [Stronger while fighting with allies.]
    Trait 2: Leader of the Pack [Capable of giving orders and strategize without a trainer present.]
    Initial Relationship: ??/10
    Moves: Thunder Fang, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, ???, ???
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    It was a bit hard to read but seemed stronger than a normal one. Stronger than Maelstrom at least. He had the air of a leader and seemed more sure of himself around the other Shinx. Of course there was also the thing about his moves. He knew the elemental fangs. That's not possible for a young Shinx unless it was specially bred. Maybe this Shinx belonged to a trainer? You are pretty sure that if it did, not anymore.

    The bag was starting to look more empty. It wasn't much, most of the pokemon food is in your backpack. You have some for spare, you decided to carry extra in case you captured a pokemon or two. You could feed them a bit more. They look really hungry.

    There was also Lily, grumbling behind you about her arm. It had a nasty burn. You or Violet should take a look at it before it gets worse.

    Speaking about her… Violet was finally with you and Lily. She wasn't able to teleport like her pokemon so when she got there, it was all over.

    You had a moment to breathe while the Shinx ate, time to decide what to do.



    [] Scare them off. You don't have enough food to just feed wild pokemon.
    [] Calm them down and feed them some more. Try to learn more about them with Lily's help.
    [] Ask Violet to take a look at them. She knows more about pokemon health than you do. You are worried about them.



    P.s: Sorry for the delay. I wanted to post the update yesterday. Blame Sakurai.
     
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    • [X] Calm them down and feed them some more. Try to learn more about them with Lily's help.

    Off the top of my head, we don't want to scare them off. Violet may be helpful, but that can always come later. They don't appear to be immediately injured, so calming them down is the priority. Then we can worry about their health and nutrition problems.
     
    Luxicato said:
    That's not possible for a young Shinx unless it was specially bred. Maybe this Shinx belonged to a trainer? You are pretty sure that if it did, not anymore.
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    This is the bit that makes me think that we might want to take a look into this. People don't want Pokémon whose only chance at survival is stealing from trainers or other humans because eventually someone will be killed when the cute Shinx grow into things more deadly.

    And it seems there's a problem with trainers releasing Pokémon without care or not reporting that they lost them or lost control.

    Given that these Shinx are too young to be alone and how the leader is possibly specially bred I'm leaning towards a breeding operation. Like how some players will breed eggs looking for the perfect IV/nature for competitive play? And releasing the not wanted Pokémon?

    Just with a better than average either escaping or being a late bloomer

    [X] Calm them down and feed them some more. Try to learn more about them with Lily's help.
     
    While good potential is always nice, if rivalry works anything like it does in the game it'll hinder us as much as it helps which isn't very good.


    [] Scare them off. You don't have enough food to just feed wild pokemon.
     
    [X] Calm them down and feed them some more. Try to learn more about them with Lily's help.

    Im kinda wary on catching it but lets go with this for now atleast.
     
    There is some confusion about the traits, so I will specify here.

    His traits work with any pokemon, not just Shinx. They make him an expert in team battles.

    Not only is he stronger when fighting with an ally, he can also strategize and give orders. Right now he isn't too smart, but once he evolves he will be like a second trainer. Capable of taking control of a situation and make plans if you are not around.
     
    [X] Calm them down and feed them some more. Try to learn more about them with Lily's help.

    Shinx Shinx Shinx! I want all three! But I know we really should lug around all 3 of them.
     
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