Remove ads

A Stranger in a War-Torn Galaxy: A Supreme Commander/WH40k Quest

Reader mode
A fair enough stance, voting on how a not fully expressed part of the lore is for this quest's continuity seems a decent compromise between differing visions and personal preferences of factions.
 
Before trying to interpret the loyalty program you need to answer a more fundamental worldbuilding question: Where did the UEF symbionts come from?
They aren't born naturally. And it seems unlikely that adolescents would survive having their skull remodelled. Meaning you would need a steady supply of consenting adults undergoing the conversion process or very quickly the problem of disloyal symbionts would solve itself.

That being the case UEF symbionts would need to have an acceptable standard of living, at least to casual investigation. If they all acted like zombies then we are back to the problem not persisting longer than a generation.

If forced to explain the cut-scene in the Cybran victory I would put it down to the UEF being on the very brink of collapse and someone going "we need volunteers to work round the clock without sleep for the next month until Black Sun is ready or we are all dead" and forgetting that the loyalty program interprets that sort of phrase as an order.
 
Remove ads
They are made. There is a program for it, it has nice fliers and everything. You take an volunteer adult and stick an implant in their skull, with the whole loyalty program being secret.

So the prospect has to be not bad enough on the surface for young adults to consider it, hence why I initially believed they can at least somewhat function and participate in society.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the loyalty program is just... not being able to act counter to the laws of the UEF, one of which involves being loyal to the UEF. Not its ideals, the UEF.

But, at the same time, we have seen the UEF has no issues with creating clones/gene tailored babies in a tube. Creating entire genelines that are well suited for the implants and raised in a manner to greatly encourage becoming symbiotes, or offering it as an alternative to long prison sentences sounds entirely plausible.
 
Asmodemus said:
Nanotechnology, it's possible they get little upgrades over time, growing with them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think Brackmann Junior was the first person to be born with a version of the Symbiont implant. All others are adult/(adolescent sometimes for the cybrans) conversions.

Asmodemus said:
Personal take or is there some media I've missed out on?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There is some stuff about the volunteer program on the supcom wiki, but with how many original soruces have been lost the canonical accuracy is I cant guarantee it is 100% actually canon. The fliers are my invention.
 
Last edited:
I would give the UEF leadership the benefit of the doubt, at least a little bit. The loyalty program was definitely started during the EE, so the UEF didn't build it. They might not have been able to find a workable alternative that didn't expose them to problems that led to the loyalty programs creation in the first place. They'd have had to maintain it actively, so they get no free pass, but it would need to have been done by coders who were largely not symbionts for OPSEC, but at the same time would have needed participating symbionts who were true believers, were able to be memory wiped so they wouldn't know, or existed as lab subjects for testing updates and restructuring in order to keep the thing functioning against constant Cybran opposition.

For what the program does, I think Bot already gave us a decent way to look at it. During the Seraphim crisis, both UEF and Cybran agreed to turn off the loyalty program and liberation matrix, and after that there was faction realignment both ways by the now free to choose symbionts. Culture clashes between UEF born and Cybran born symbionts are obvious, but what if one of the reasons symbionts returned to UEF was the liberation matrix overlaid the loyalty program with itself and slammed all the loyalty controls, which limited themselves to certain topics or groups of ideas that would be categorized as undesirable (and didn't much concern itself with what they did off the clock, which symbionts would need to go off pretty regularly, probably commensurate with what a normal worker would need so there is surge capacity for crisis and they didn't cook their brains in different ways to Revy), to disloyal, forcibly converting them to the Cybran viewpoint. I've been exposed to enough ideologues that I could believe even anarchists could see giving people the "right" views wouldn't be that bad. Maybe the very nature of LOYALTY forced LIBERATION to work like that, with UEF symbiont hardware configured to only run like that. Cybran produced implants would of course not have that problem, but if they could be swapped out, it would take time and necessitate being in a Cybran facility with Cybran hardware. There could be major dissonance between having both programs suddenly gone when they come out of surgery, and to people who have lived their entire lives with the UEF's structure, chain of command, and executive ability to act, the culture clash and patronizing feelings from freeborn Cybrans who don't understand why not all converts aren't incredibly enthused at being a part of the Cybran Nation. Some would be missing their families and friends, some would just genuinely not be able to function or plain not like the way the Cybrans don't really run themselves. Those could take like minded fellows with them and set out to found Cybran Nodes that organize themselves more along the lines of the UEF but with the freedom, and probably enforced democratic baselines from the rest of the Nation, to run themselves how they wish. These more UEF Nodes were probably ones that could and some did move their affiliation over. Some to take advantage of the Feds more complete networks when their core worlds didn't go kaboom in a single instant, some because they wanted into the UEF to make sure Black Sun never happened again, some for completely practical reasons during the war, and many more reasons beside.

I think the UEF should very clearly have been in the wrong for what they did with at least actual reasons for their actions beyond straight totalitarianism, and that the Cybrans were right in their aims but the details, practical and personal, quickly get more complicated. So i actually think you totally could have Revy date a symbiont, Bot.

Feel free to question anything about what I wrote and I'll try to explain what I'm getting at.

PS Also, given the constraints of operating outside of friendly territory when freeing loyalty symbionts, those hardware replacements might take a long time to happen, and the operatives wouldn't be too fussed about making it happen.
 
Last edited:
The text of the manual certainly implies that the loyalty program doesn't automatically render the symbiont a non person: when the program was activated it wasn't necessarily something that could be detected. That said, especially with the war their certainly a second class of citizens(especially once you get to upper levels of society), and it is something where the state is mind controling large groups of people so that they cannot disobey or raise objections to issues. So...uh, it's a pretty dark chapter and a sign that the UEF has it's own fucked up things that, at least pre-black sun and Forged Alliance, point to some similarities to the Imperium that Revy probably really doesn't like thinking about.
 
Last edited:
At best I will allow that neural mapping preparations and integration planning can occur before a volunteer is 18, but the actual surgery has to be performed on an adult.
 
BOTcommander said:
Hm, pretty good.

But there would go my idea of having Revy been told off by MilSec to dating a Symbiont she met at work at some point.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There's an easier way to do this. The loyalty program is a no mouth must scream situation.

With the AI so heavily intertwined with your brain meats, it can easily puppet your body. And more importantly, when off the clock, it can use your brain meats to emulate your personality so no one outside can tell the difference... aside from being a lot more "everything is fine, UEF oora" than normal.

The original personality is, at best, suppressed and rendered into a comatose state.

In short, the loyalty program is the UEFs prettier version of imperial servitorization
 
Wildabeest said:
I would give the UEF leadership the benefit of the doubt, at least a little bit. The loyalty program was definitely started during the EE, so the UEF didn't build it. They might not have been able to find a workable alternative that didn't expose them to problems that led to the loyalty programs creation in the first place. They'd have had to maintain it actively, so they get no free pass, but it would need to have been done by coders who were largely not symbionts for OPSEC, but at the same time would have needed participating symbionts who were true believers, were able to be memory wiped so they wouldn't know, or existed as lab subjects for testing updates and restructuring in order to keep the thing functioning against constant Cybran opposition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is a giant cop-out. The loyalty program was initiated in canon when one group of symbionts petitioned to leave the UEE and the response was invasion and fighting. Symbionts across the empire protested, and then you had the loyalty program. And that's the entire reason for the 1000 year war. If the UEF was interested in finding an alternative solution they could have. Hell, if nothing else they could have just said to Brackman "hey, this loyalty program is fucked up, truce and can you remove it"? That doesn't happen though, so trying to say that the UEF was just forced into this situation is laughable. They might have been in the first few years or decades, but it's been 1000 years. At some point 'we just didn't know' stops being believable.
Asmodemus said:
Bot, it feels like it's time to slap an 'AU' next to 'Supreme Commander' in the title, given how much canon disagrees with you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
At a certain point it's just trying to deny the UEF did some really fucked up stuff.
 
Last edited:
Cosar said:
This is a giant cop-out. The loyalty program was initiated in canon when one group of symbionts petitioned to leave the UEE and the response was invasion and fighting. Symbionts across the empire protested, and then you had the loyalty program. And that's the entire reason for the 1000 year war. If the UEF was interested in finding an alternative solution they could have. Hell, if nothing else they could have just said to Brackman "hey, this loyalty program is fucked up, truce and can you remove it"? That doesn't happen though, so trying to say that the UEF was just forced into this situation is laughable. They might have been in the first few years or decades, but it's been 1000 years. At some point 'we just didn't know' stops being believable.

At a certain point it's just trying to deny the UEF did some really fucked up stuff.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I will counter that I know nothing about the UEE that didn't come up in Thread or was in the cinematic opener for the game. If the UEF came into being in the 3200s, it didn't start the program. I absolutely hold the UEF government responsible for it, and more importantly never trying to diplomance the Cybrans into peace, which they fucking should have and never did. Governments don't like letting go of power though, especially authoritarian regimes with fascist undertones, so even if the Cybrans came to them with that deal, the UEF president and senate wouldn't have wanted to change the status quo so much. I wasn't concerned with lambasting the UEF over something everyone agrees they're guilty of. My focus was explaining why some Cybran symbionts joined the UEF after they murdered a trillion non-combatants after enslaving their kind for, depending on how you count it, a thousand years.

Along with what I put in the post, the UEF had the benefit of losing the entire chain of command including the Senate and President except for Hall, who did not have anything to do with either sin so far as I know. So nobody who made those decisions, and most or all of them would have been on Earth, survived long enough to complicate things. The UEF similar nodes I'm suggesting would have been pretty easily able to absolve the citizenry of the crimes of its rulers and, maybe, aspire to create a pan humanity Fed that could act in defense of all. The crisis of the Seraphim gave a reason for all three sides to trash their grudges and institutional bullshit in favor of survival and good sense, so, don't make the mistake of thinking any part of that was ok.

Edit for clarity.
 
Last edited:
Remove ads
Worldbuilding Vote - [Loyalty Program]
  • Apocrypha
    • Allright people, worldbuilding vote. What was the Loyalty Program like for my quests iteration of the SupCom continuity? This might not come up for a while, but it needs to be done and I might as well outscource it, because I am the UEF boy and might not be be trusted to give my favourite factions the crap it deserves for this horrid act of mental control. If you are not aware what the Loyalty Program is, watch this:

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8zD2uYryJM
    Regardless, if you wanna sit this one out, you can.

    Now, how do we do this. We have three stats: Awareness, Suppression, Agency, ranging from 0 to 5. And you have 8 points to distribute among them via planvotes. The descriptions and options are below.

    []Awareness
    -[-]0 (Ignorant): The Symbiont is blissfully unaware of the influence of the Loyalty Program, living in a state of obliviousness to external control.
    -[-]1 (Vague): Occasional glimpses of suspicion arise, but the Symbiont dismisses them as fleeting thoughts, remaining mostly unaware of their strings.
    -[-]2 (Mild): The Symbiont senses a subtle presence manipulating their actions but can't quite pinpoint it, leading to a growing but uncertain awareness.
    -[X]3 (Aware): Clear signs of external influence are recognized, prompting the Symbiont to question their autonomy, but the complete picture remains elusive.
    -[-]4 (Conscious): The Symbiont fully comprehends the extent of the Loyalty Program's control, navigating a delicate balance between cooperation and resistance.
    -[-]5 (Rebellious): Awareness is at its peak as the Symbiont actively resists and strategizes against the loyalty programming, determined to reclaim control.

    [X]Suppression
    -[-]0 (Unbridled): Emotions flow freely, unrestricted by the Loyalty Program, allowing the Symbiont to experience the full spectrum of feelings without interference.
    -[-]1 (Minimal): Emotions are slightly tempered, introducing a subtle calmness, but the Symbiont's emotional responses remain largely unaffected.
    -[X]2 (Controlled): The Loyalty Program exercises moderate influence, dulling intense emotions while maintaining a semblance of natural emotional expression.
    -[-]3 (Restrained): A noticeable suppression takes hold, dampening emotional highs and lows, leaving the Symbiont composed but limited in emotional depth.
    -[-]4 (Calm): Emotions are tightly regulated, creating a composed and rational demeanor, with the Loyalty Program actively steering the Symbiont's emotional responses.
    -[-]5 (Apathetic): Complete emotional suppression prevails, rendering the Symbiont largely apathetic and indifferent, with minimal emotional fluctuations.

    [-]Agency
    -[-]0 (Independent): The Symbiont operates with complete autonomy, rarely seeking or requiring guidance, free to make decisions without external influence.
    -[-]1 (Self-Reliant): While generally independent, the Symbiont occasionally seeks guidance or orders but remains largely capable of self-directed action.
    -[-]2 (Balanced): A moderate level of dependency exists, with the Symbiont comfortable following orders but still capable of making decisions independently when needed.
    -[X]3 (Dependent): The Loyalty Program exerts noticeable control over decision-making, creating a reliance on external directives to guide the Symbiont's actions.
    -[-]4 (Submissive): Agency is significantly diminished, with the Symbiont primarily acting upon orders, displaying a strong inclination to defer decision-making.
    -[-]5 (Obedient): Complete surrender of agency to the Loyalty Program, the Symbiont operates as a mere extension of external commands, devoid of personal initiative.

    The Symbiont conversion was not performed on children in the UEF. QM decision. Thanks for participating. I reserve myself the right to disregard, interpret, change and add to both WH40k and Supreme Commander lore as I see fit to support the narrative. Comments and feedback sustain my soul.
     
    Last edited:
  • Apocrypha
    • Wildabeest said:
    My focus was explaining why some Cybran symbionts joined the UEF after they murdered a trillion non-combatants after enslaving their kind for, depending on how you count it, a thousand years.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    That's pretty easy. Aliens murdering everyone. Other factions are either: Generally made of small radical cells (Cybran Nation) who may come off a bit extreme. Or of the people that were out to brainwash everyone with their religion except for the symbionts, they wanted to murder the fuck out of them for being 'soulless' due to being part AI. The UEF meanwhile are bigger than the Cybrans even with Earth gone and have a lot of experience propagandaing they're bringing safety and security. They also are more familiar.

    If I was a recently released symbiont, I'd really have to consider between them and the Cybrans.
     
    [X] Plan: Not gonna Sugarcoat it
    -[X]4 (Conscious): The Symbiont fully comprehends the extent of the Loyalty Program's control, navigating a delicate balance between cooperation and resistance.
    -[X]0 (Unbridled): Emotions flow freely, unrestricted by the Loyalty Program, allowing the Symbiont to experience the full spectrum of feelings without interference.
    -[X]4 (Submissive): Agency is significantly diminished, with the Symbiont primarily acting upon orders, displaying a strong inclination to defer decision-making.
     
    [x] Plan:Subdued Servants
    -[x]1 (Vague): Occasional glimpses of suspicion arise, but the Symbiont dismisses them as fleeting thoughts, remaining mostly unaware of their strings.
    -[x]4 (Calm): Emotions are tightly regulated, creating a composed and rational demeanor, with the Loyalty Program actively steering the Symbiont's emotional responses.
    -[x]3 (Dependent): The Loyalty Program exerts noticeable control over decision-making, creating a reliance on external directives to guide the Symbiont's actions.

    3 and 4 of the last one kinda feel like they should be swapped. I'd go with this for description but as number 4 for 'severity'.

    I think this makes for what my vision described earlier was? They aren't mere puppets, but they are enslaved and it's a relief when they have it lifted, the control they mostly never realized they had gone.
     
    Last edited:
    Wildabeest said:
    I will counter that I know nothing about the UEE that didn't come up in Thread or was in the cinematic opener for the game. If the UEF came into being in the 3200s, it didn't start the program. I absolutely hold the UEF government responsible for it, and more importantly never trying to diplomance the Cybrans into peace, which they fucking should have and never did. Governments don't like letting go of power though, especially authoritarian regimes with fascist undertones, so even if the Cybrans came to them with that deal, the UEF president and senate wouldn't have wanted to change the status quo so much. I wasn't concerned with lambasting the UEF over something everyone agrees they're guilty of. My focus was explaining why some Cybran symbionts joined the UEF after they murdered a trillion non-combatants after enslaving their kind for, depending on how you count it, a thousand years.

    Along with what I put in the post, the UEF had the benefit of losing the entire chain of command including the Senate and President except for Hall, who did not have anything to do with either sin so far as I know. So nobody who made those decisions, and most or all of them would have been on Earth, survived long enough to complicate things. The UEF similar nodes I'm suggesting would have been pretty easily able to absolve the citizenry of the crimes of its rulers and, maybe, aspire to create a pan humanity Fed that could act in defense of all. The crisis of the Seraphim gave a reason for all three sides to trash their grudges and institutional bullshit in favor of survival and good sense, so, don't make the mistake of thinking any part of that was ok.

    Edit for clarity.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    The UEF is the successor state to the Earth Empire. The exact description is that 'only the core of the Earth Command, the military arm of the shattered Earth Empire remained to carry the torch of a united, Earth descended government. They gathered power and initiated a strategy to reunite all worlds under Earth's banner. As the UEF...'. So, while an organization called the UEF didn't start the program, the organization that did started the program created the UEF. There isn't really a clean break there, and in any case the UEF continued to use the program for 1000 years so I'm not sure what you argument even is regarding that whole point. My point was that the intial conditions that caused the program to be used were obviously indefensible, which counters your statement about how "They might not have been able to find a workable alternative that didn't expose them to problems that led to the loyalty programs creation in the first place." The argument that the UEF needs to keep Symbionts pliant in order to prevent people protesting heavy handed police state actions is not a compelling one.

    But, in any case, I was objecting to you saying how the UEF leadership should be given the benefit of the doubt or how their inability to find another path should be taken as anything approaching an excuse. That is what you said in the text of the post that I quoted. I'm not sure why you're objecting to me by saying that I should have replied instead to some theoretical completely different post that you could have written. But if those statements aren't accurately summarizing your views then ok, we can drop that.
     
    Last edited:
    Wildabeest said:
    -Snip-
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    This feels like one of the better explanation I have read, it really captures the complicated nature of reality.

    [X] Plan: Quite Enforcement
    -[X]Awareness
    --[X]3 (Aware): Clear signs of external influence are recognized, prompting the Symbiont to question their autonomy, but the complete picture remains elusive.
    -[X]Suppression
    --[X]2 (Controlled): The Loyalty Program exercises moderate influence, dulling intense emotions while maintaining a semblance of natural emotional expression.
    -[X]Agency
    --[X]3 (Dependent): The Loyalty Program exerts noticeable control over decision-making, creating a reliance on external directives to guide the Symbiont's actions.

    A thing to remember is that the Loyalty program was secret so it's effects can not be too overtly noticeable.

    //Edit: I like this because it hides it from the UEE/UEFs citizens that something is going on there and the Symbionts are not in too much better a position to figure things out.
    ///Edit:
    [X]Plan Order me captain!
     
    Last edited:
    Voidseer said:
    [X] Plan: Quite Enforcement
    -[X]Awareness
    --[X]3 (Aware): Clear signs of external influence are recognized, prompting the Symbiont to question their autonomy, but the complete picture remains elusive.
    -[X]Suppression
    --[X]1 (Minimal): Emotions are slightly tempered, introducing a subtle calmness, but the Symbiont's emotional responses remain largely unaffected.
    -[X]Agency
    --[X]2 (Balanced): A moderate level of dependency exists, with the Symbiont comfortable following orders but still capable of making decisions independently when needed.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    That's 6 points.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top