There's also a history of that sort of prejudice. Like, the American women's baseball league had a whole lavender scare of its own leading to many nonsensical thing like banning inter-team fraternization.

There's also the all female Hollyhead Harpies quidditch team, which in the In Universe source of the 'female quidditch players are likely gay' stereotype, alongside the real world prejudice that butch/tomboy girls and women are all queer.

The stereotype is likely the actual source of Bagman's comment, but the more innocent source would be that Ginny is the Gryffindor reserve seeker. She's literally Holly's backup on the team so, given how the Seeker role plays out, she'd be the team member most likely to be working together with Holly. Unlike Chaser or Beater, you don't interact with the rest of your team that much as a Seeker.
And then there's the unexpected real-world tendency for American and Canadian women's hockey players to marry each other (Meghan Duggan and Gillian Apps, Caroline Ouellette and Julie Chu – it's not a lot but it's weird that it happened twice).


Just to keep this on topic and stop this from being a general "how to deal with bigots" discussion: Grubbly-Plank ABSOLTUTELY needs to gets a few bonkings until he squares up. By causing Holly undue stress and unfairly singling her out, he not only makes Hogwarts an unwelcoming environment but also compromises the integrity of the house points system by aggressively deducting griffindor points for the most petty reasons. Not to mention that, with his stuck-up inappropriate reaction to what really ought to be a significant discovery (that Unicorn sensitivity is not just based on the presence or absence of a penis), he is failing very badly at being a role model of a biologist.
Grubbly-Plank is a she.
 
I just read Grubby Plank as initially feeling Harry didn't count as a girl to the unicorns, so was being concerned for her safety, then when proven wrong just sulked and gave her grumpy looks. Academia and such don't like folk proving them wrong, in general.
There is a way that scene could have been written to demonstrate genuine concern on her part, but that would have required more tact and actual concern for Holly. Instead, we see her brusquely calling Holly out, insulting her, and explaining herself in an extremely demeaning fashion.

Grubbly-Plank is a she.

You beat me to it by a couple of seconds.
 
I just read Grubby Plank as initially feeling Harry didn't count as a girl to the unicorns, so was being concerned for her safety, then when proven wrong just sulked and gave her grumpy looks. Academia and such don't like folk proving them wrong, in general.
That very "concern" is itself transphobic and her doubling down after being proven wrong shows well enough that G-P is more interested in maintaining her bigotry then Holly's safety and always was.

Seriously why the hell is anyone trying to defend this woman or downplay her actions? Transphobe tranphobed then got called out and proven wrong. Why is this even a conversation?
 
That very "concern" is itself transphobic and her doubling down after being proven wrong shows well enough that G-P is more interested in maintaining her bigotry then Holly's safety and always was.

Seriously why the hell is anyone trying to defend this woman or downplay her actions? Transphobe tranphobed then got called out and proven wrong. Why is this even a conversation?
I... Wasn't defending? I was sharing my initial read of what her actions looked like to me. Once people pointed out her behaviour I reread and agree with them.
 
That very "concern" is itself transphobic and her doubling down after being proven wrong shows well enough that G-P is more interested in maintaining her bigotry then Holly's safety and always was.

Seriously why the hell is anyone trying to defend this woman or downplay her actions? Transphobe tranphobed then got called out and proven wrong. Why is this even a conversation?
Nobody has been. The discussion has pretty much solely been about (a) whether she's being intentionally transphobic or acting this way due to being a bad teacher who doesn't like being proven wrong, and (b) the amount of vehemence people reacted to her with. Whether G-P's response itself was transphobic hasn't really been in question at any point.
 
None of this paints G-P in a good light, and once again: I do agree that the way she responded was blatantly transphobic. What I'm not certain on was whether the motivation behind that response was knowingly and intentionally transphobic, or the result of mistaken assumptions and being stubborn about reviewing them.

...also, I realise I'm probably not explaining myself very well, and apologise for that.
Honestly a good rule of thumb is if someone behaves in a transphobic/racist/bigoted manner and you find yourself going "Well actually it could just be general spite/ignorance" you need to stop and reassess what brought you to that situation because it is not somewhere you should be. It is utterly a distinction without a difference and absolutely nothing can be gained from repeatedly hammering on, "well maybe they were really..." I completely understand you mean well here and are just trying to clarify what's "really" going on in the scene, but that is not what it comes across as and no amount of trying to clarify and explain will make it come across as a valid line of questioning. More importantly it does not in any way, shape, or form matter. What matters is behavior, whether G-P is "really" transphobic, "just old fashioned," or simply hates people with brown hair and has decided to take it out on Holly in this way is completely irrelevant to the outcome of how she behaves, which is absolutely transphobic.
 
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Honestly a good rule of thumb is if someone behaves in a transphobic/racist/bigoted manner and you find yourself going "Well actually it could just be general spite/ignorance" you need to stop and reassess what brought you to that situation because it is not somewhere you should be. It is utterly a distinction without a difference and absolutely nothing can be gained from repeatedly hammering on, "well maybe they were really..." I completely understand you mean well here and are just trying to clarify what's "really" going on in the scene, but that is not what it comes across as and no amount of trying to clarify and explain will make it come across as a valid line of questioning. More importantly it does not in any way, shape, or form matter. What matter is behavior, iwhether G-P is "really" transphobic, "just old fashioned," or simply hates people with brown hair and has decided to take it out on Holly in this way is completely irrelevant to the outcome of how she behaves, which is absolutely transphobic.
What causes me to wonder that is pretty much that I try to keep an open mind about things; in this case I can see something that could explain her actions other than conscious transphobia, and seeing as people are frequently ignorant and/or stupid rather than outright malicious I can't dismiss that possibility on about two sentences of evidence. As for whether it matters, to the results of her actions I agree that no, it does not. She did something transphobic, and why she did it doesn't affect the harm it caused. On that front it is truly irrelevant. When it comes to G-P's character, however, there the distinction does matter (at least to me) because motivations are important. If someone does something because they've got a terrible personality then it means something different about them than if they do it because they hate trans people.

Essentially, I suppose I'm splitting her reaction into two parts and treating them as entirely independent; what her actions were, and why she acted that way. For the first she was inarguably transphobic, while the second could very easily be transphobia but also has alternate explanations.

But behind that, I suppose the root of the whole thing comes down to me finding what goes on inside people's heads interesting (and confusing, and terrifying...), and it being something I want to try to understand (because it's confusing and terrifying). That doesn't mean giving this sort of behaviour a free pass, or excusing it, or being any less condemning of how terrible it is, but it does mean I struggle to accept just a straightforward 'this person is an X, end of story' without at least attempting to explore the nuance behind why they're acting that way.
 
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What causes me to wonder that is pretty much that I try to keep an open mind about things; in this case I can see something that could explain her actions other than conscious transphobia, and seeing as people are frequently ignorant and/or stupid rather than outright malicious I can't dismiss that possibility on about two sentences of evidence. As for whether it matters, to the results of her actions I agree that no, it does not. She did something transphobic, and why she did it doesn't affect the harm it caused. On that front it is truly irrelevant. When it comes to G-P's character, however, there the distinction does matter (at least to me) because motivations are important. If someone does something because they've got a terrible personality then it means something different about them than if they do it because they hate trans people.

Essentially, I suppose I'm splitting her reaction into two parts and treating them as entirely independent; what her actions were, and why she acted that way. For the first she was inarguably transphobic, while the second could very easily be transphobia but also has alternate explanations.

But behind that, I suppose the root of the whole thing comes down to me finding what goes on inside people's heads interesting (and confusing, and terrifying...), and it being something I want to try to understand (because it's confusing and terrifying). That doesn't mean giving this sort of behaviour a free pass, or excusing it, or being any less condemning of how terrible it is, but it does mean I struggle to accept just a straightforward 'this person is an X, end of story' without at least attempting to explore the nuance behind why they're acting that way.
I understand and respect that frame of mind to a degree, but also find it both somewhat out of touch to voice, and that it tends to come worryingly close to JAQing off far too often. Also keep in mind that some things simply aren't nuanced.
 
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And then there's the unexpected real-world tendency for American and Canadian women's hockey players to marry each other (Meghan Duggan and Gillian Apps, Caroline Ouellette and Julie Chu – it's not a lot but it's weird that it happened twice).

I mean, I wouldn't call twice a lot. It's not even a pattern tbh. :p

If there was some sort of statistically significant bias towards American and Canadian women's hockey players to marrying each through, I would quite possibly die from laughter.
 
I understand and respect that frame of mind to a degree, but also find it both somewhat out of touch to voice, and that it tend to come worryingly close to JAQing off far too often. Also keep in mind that some things simply aren't nuanced.
The first thing is part of why I've been repeatedly emphasising that 'yes, this is transphobic', yeah. As for the second, I'm aware that things aren't always nuanced, but until I know for certain that a specific situation or attitude or whatever isn't it doesn't feel right just assuming it's not.
 
The first thing is part of why I've been repeatedly emphasising that 'yes, this is transphobic', yeah. As for the second, I'm aware that things aren't always nuanced, but until I know for certain that a specific situation or attitude or whatever isn't it doesn't feel right just assuming it's not.
Have you considered the environment that always and immediately asking that kind of question fosters for others though as evidenced by the significant push back you've gotten here for even voicing the question? Not every question or curiosity is a valid track to pursue. There's a reason that JAQing off in a thread will get someone infracted and the only real difference is that pretty much everyone here believes that you're asking your questions in good faith.

I'm honestly trying to phrase this and my last several posts as politely and kindly as possible and I'm worrying that in doing so I'm not getting across how very wrong I think it was for you to even ask the question of if G-P was really behaving from a place of transphobia or general ignorance really was in the first place. I don't mean to attack you personally here, but I do want to get across that I think constantly trying to not describe things appropriately because of a worry that it's too harsh, or maybe just maybe not what they meant in their heart-of-hearts, is a deeply troubling line of thinking and not at all a behavior that should be encouraged. It routinely gives, I'll be overly generous and say mostly, unintended cover to actual bigots that they delight in hiding behind and using to obfuscate their own bad behaviors.
 
What if the goal is to run them out of polite society so that other people don't pick up cues from them.

Maybe villifying them doesn't change their individual ways, but coddling them make others think it's acceptable to copy them.
Worse; it effectively validates their beliefs; both in their eyes, and those of the general public. When someone standing up and arguing for something like transphobia, racism, fascism or the like is tolerated, that sends the signal that it's considered a reasonable position worthy of discussion.

I disagree, all that does is drive them from your specific group turning it into an echo chamber.
And not doing so means that they drive everyone else out, turning what used to be your space into their echo chamber. History demonstrates that all refusing to condemn them does is let them turn all of society into their echo chamber, with everyone else silenced, driven out or killed.
 
Here's the thing: unintended mistakes and mis/uninformed bias look, sound and act differently from intentional belligerence. If there was meant to be any wiggle room for G-P to be something other than mouldering garbage, the scene would have gone differently, maybe something like this:
In a world where G-P isn't festering trash said:
"Potions alone cannot replicate the sacred feminine aura of-" Grubbly-Plank said, but Holly ignored her. Hermione standing up for her had given her the time to react, and so she simply walked towards the Unicorn. It neighed at her softly but didn't seem at all bothered. Indeed, it nuzzled its nose against Holly, and she gently patted it. Grubbly-Plank's eyebrows shot up and disappeared into her hair.

For the rest of the lesson, Grubbly-Plank kept glancing at Holly, a thoughtful expression on her face. Pansy Parkinson tried to make a few snide comments about Hagrid, and about Holly, which were quickly stomped on by Grubbly-Plank.
That isn't what happened. What happened is that she got proven wrong, got mad about it, refused to aplogise or restore the house points despite the unicorns unequivocally showing her to be wrong, looked for opportunities to punish Holly further and ignored opportunities to punish other hateful bigoted shitheads. Ergo, the clear and unavoidable takeaway is, and should be, G-P is a hateful bigoted shithead. Straining and stressing to find any possible excuse for 'maybe she's not a bigot, just mis/uninformed' is ignoring the text to try and create an alternate narrative for reasons I cannot comprehend. She literally was informed, by no less than what she views(viewed?) as an unfailing arbiter of "the sacred feminine aura", that she was wrong. People who can be brought around acknowledge a mistake, try to change and be better. Bigots double down. No one can read the text and reasonably think G-P did anything other than double down. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if G-P claimed one of them 'bewitched' the unicorn or something, so that she doesn't have to admit she's wrong.

That's how you know what the situation is: the text makes it all but inescapable that G-P is a bigot, and the contortions needed to try and twist things around to allow any possibility of her not being awful seem, frankly, like it's more important to give the benefit of doubt to bigots, than it is to credit the lived experiences of queer folk who have tried many different ways to spell out "no, this is what bigots act like".

Put it another way: I recognise that a knocking sound under my car hood is not good, but I don't need to know specifics to trust a mechanic that tells me "your motor's fucked." You don't need specifics to trust people who know the field better than you.
 
I mean, I wouldn't call twice a lot. It's not even a pattern tbh. :p

If there was some sort of statistically significant bias towards American and Canadian women's hockey players to marrying each through, I would quite possibly die from laughter.
Correction: Three, at least. Jayna Hefford and Kathleen Kauth. In all cases it's national Olympic players, and in at least two of those cases the brides played with the same jersey number.

Given that "Canadian and American Olympic women's ice hockey player" is a fairly small group, moreso if restricting to only players who were on the team within the past twenty years (after same-sex marriage began to become locally legal), I'm not sure that three weddings doesn't make a statistically significant bias.
 
Correction: Three, at least. Jayna Hefford and Kathleen Kauth. In all cases it's national Olympic players, and in at least two of those cases the brides played with the same jersey number.

Given that "Canadian and American Olympic women's ice hockey player" is a fairly small group, moreso if restricting to only players who were on the team within the past twenty years (after same-sex marriage began to become locally legal), I'm not sure that three weddings doesn't make a statistically significant bias.
Now, this is the kind of content I'm here for.
 
People who can be brought around acknowledge a mistake, try to change and be better. Bigots double down.
This seems to be a core assumption to your argument (and if it's not, I apologize for misunderstanding.) But unless your definition of a "bigot" is broader than mine, I have to contest this. The idea that only prejudiced people double down when proven wrong about something, and that people who aren't bigoted at heart are guaranteed to show signs of acknowledging their mistake quickly, just doesn't make sense quickly. And if I understand what NSMS is saying here:

Also, you obviously had better teachers than I did, because I've seen that sort of behaviour from plenty of teachers in school (not the transphobic trigger, but the same general attitude). For example, I distinctly remember one occasion when I was sent out of class just for asking why something what would happen if we did something we'd been told not to; it wasn't something dangerous (we were in music class), I was curious as to why we'd been forbidden, and next moment I had a teacher red-faced and yelling at me to get out. So yeah. G-P's reaction? Perfectly in line with what I'd expect from a short-tempered and/or stubborn teacher who doesn't like being questioned.

They're of a similar mindset, because they've seen the type of aggressive and uncompromising behavior G-P displays here from people without (apparent) signs of bigotry- just an ego the size of an aircraft carrier.

From a Doylist perspective, I suspect that G-P, if not already actively transphobic, will soon join that sordid club. We know what the theme of this story is after all. But in other context such a character would not be so obvious to place.

EDIT: To try working with your analogy about car engine noises, It's true that when you have the immediate short-term goal of using your car to get somewhere, you do not need more specifics than "your motor's fucked." But in the long term, it's helpful to know if you just if you just have a worn bearing in your valve gear that's not too hard to fix, or if the engine block is almost cracked in half and you'll need to replace the whole thing.
 
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Really, it's not that odd to find an unusual number of same-sex weddings in an all-female sport. Vigorous physical activity is known to increase sexual desire*; in fact it's an old piece of relationship advice to be careful about starting a relationship with somebody you met at the gym, since it's quite possible it's the exercise talking. The same principle holds for sports, except that since it's a single gender group any relationships kicked off that way within the group will by definition be same gender.

And of course, if a woman marries a man, nobody is likely to point at that and claim it has some kind of significance.


* For that matter, that's one of the reasons being tied up is a common kink; muscle tension is arousing.
 
I disagree, all that does is drive them from your specific group turning it into an echo chamber.
I for one am perfectly happy with this place "echoing" that it's ok to be trans, gay, not-white, or even that *gasp* Jews don't secretly run the world while feasting on the blood of Christians.

But please do elaborate on why it's vitally important that we let horrible views like those exist without "vilifying" them. I'm sure we'd all like to know how it's really important to make bigots feel at home here and that that's not just a ridiculously privileged view that's astoundingly out of touch with, well basically everything.
 
But unless your definition of a "bigot" is broader than mine, I have to contest this.
Well, yeah, kinda?

Anyone who expresses bigotry can be said to be a bigot, so like basically everyone is, strictly speaking. The difference is in how or if we make an effort to grow/reflect on/improve - not only ourselves, but our society and institutions.

Fussing over defining who is or isn't a bigot just seems like a way to spend time not actually improving. People hurt by expressed bigotry are hurt regardless of whether it was intentional or not, and I think the victims' feelings matter more here.
 
I for one am perfectly happy with this place "echoing" that it's ok to be trans, gay, not-white, or even that *gasp* Jews don't secretly run the world while feasting on the blood of Christians.

But please do elaborate on why it's vitally important that we let horrible views like those exist without "vilifying" them. I'm sure we'd all like to know how it's really important to make bigots feel at home here and that that's not just a ridiculously privileged view that's astoundingly out of touch with, well basically everything.

Basically this, yeah.
Sometimes something is vilified for a good reason.





 
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Well, yeah, kinda?

Anyone who expresses bigotry can be said to be a bigot, so like basically everyone is, strictly speaking. The difference is in how or if we make an effort to grow/reflect on/improve - not only ourselves, but our society and institutions.

Fussing over defining who is or isn't a bigot just seems like a way to spend time not actually improving. People hurt by expressed bigotry are hurt regardless of whether it was intentional or not, and I think the victims' feelings matter more here.
Truth here. Heck, I'm more than willing to admit I've been a Bigot in the past... I've said and thought unfair things about people because of social prejudices I bought into... I'm probably still a bigot in ways I haven't eat learned are harmful... The trick is to ALWAYS try to learn and improve...
 
even that *gasp* Jews don't secretly run the world while feasting on the blood of Christians.

Wait, we don't? Shit, I've got to tell the group we have to change our menus! /s

But the blood libel is usually Christian babies, for extra appeal to emotion. And I don't know that I'd call matzo a feast under any circumstances... in fact, we once left a container open after Passover and when we checked on it next year, we found a beetle had crawled in and chosen to starve to death rather than eat the bread of affliction.
 
Wait, we don't? Shit, I've got to tell the group we have to change our menus! /s

But the blood libel is usually Christian babies, for extra appeal to emotion. And I don't know that I'd call matzo a feast under any circumstances... in fact, we once left a container open after Passover and when we checked on it next year, we found a beetle had crawled in and chosen to starve to death rather than eat the bread of affliction.
Come now! If you can't depend on antisemitic conspiracy theories for logic and reasoned thought what can you? :V

/s
 
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