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And the fact that she started sulking when proven wrong instead of being happy to learn something new.
A Skirt's Not So Bad [Harry Potter]
- Thread starter Tekomandor
- Start date
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- Colorado
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HA HA! EAT SHIT PROFESSOR ROWLING! FUCK YOU.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Mmm... to be completely clear, I agree that the overall reaction is definitely transphobic. That's obvious. The specifics of this situation, however, create enough doubt for me to be unsure as to whether she's deliberately denying Holly's gender, or just snapping at a student doing something (she believes is) dangerous without really thinking about the implications of what she's saying.
Once again, the results of G-P's actions are 100% transphobic, no argument there. What I'm unsure on is whether the motivation behind them is transphobia- as in, denying Holly's gender- or just assuming that the 'boys cannot approach unicorns' thing is based on physical sex, and then conflating gender/sex in a hasty and angry response to what she saw as a student ignoring her instructions. It's the whole 'do not assume malice when ignorance serves as an explanation' thing; I can honestly see her initial reaction being the result of prior assumptions about how unicorns behave and trying to explain that without really having the vocabulary or familiarity with trans people to know how (since, as has been previously speculated, trans gender identity doesn't seem to be a known thing in the magical world). Add in how it seems to be a very hasty 'what do you think you're doing' snap response to a student (in her mind) disobeying instructions, and thus something that she likely wouldn't have the time to be actively considering her words over, and it's plausible to me that she wasn't intentionally denying Holly's gender (even if that was the actual result of what she was doing and saying).
Her follow-up reaction, meanwhile...
That's something that's easily explained by simple pettiness and dislike of having someone less qualified prove her wrong. It shows up all the time in academics and the workforce, no prejudices needed.
None of this paints G-P in a good light, and once again: I do agree that the way she responded was blatantly transphobic. What I'm not certain on was whether the motivation behind that response was knowingly and intentionally transphobic, or the result of mistaken assumptions and being stubborn about reviewing them.
...also, I realise I'm probably not explaining myself very well, and apologise for that.
ADeshantis
King on the Chromium Throne
- Location
- United states
Two paragraphs are enough for people to start calling for the woman's head.
I agree that she's being petty and narrow minded but it's a bit weird to me that the witch hunt (heh) went from 0 to 60 pretty much instantaneously. Like... I've seen people express more tolerance for suspected murderers.
I agree that she's being petty and narrow minded but it's a bit weird to me that the witch hunt (heh) went from 0 to 60 pretty much instantaneously. Like... I've seen people express more tolerance for suspected murderers.
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I think your explaining yourself decently, cause transphobia is systemic, meaning a person can be doing transphobic things without holding a personal animus towards trans people, but like what does it matter? At the end of the day both the hateful and the unwitting contributions make life worse. It's alot of consideration for this character who doesn't really deserve it. You'll run out of energy if your trying to see beneath every bigots actions
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
It's mostly that motivation matters. Why someone does something is important, and it's hard to get a proper read of who someone is without having at least an idea of it. And in the case of bigots specifically, people who hold prejudices out of unthinking ignorance are more easily reached than those who knowingly hold those opinions.
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I really don't agree. Alot of times it's the unthinking ignorance that cuts deeper and hurts far worse.
This idea that oh you can just educate this majority group of people doing shitty things and they suddenly realize how wrong they were is kinda of super wrong. There isn't some place of innocence reserved for people, if your doin the actions and doubling down, then you win the label because your externally indistinguishable
ADeshantis
King on the Chromium Throne
- Location
- United states
I'd argue the character's existed for less than what would be a page in a book and it's a little hard to determine what she deserves aside from being reprimanded and forced to explain herself. (Edit: 424 words where she's referenced directly or indirectly unless you count Hermione getting fed up with Hagrid hiding away, and that's like 99% Rita Skeeter because it's exactly how it happened in canon too.)
I've noticed a level of knee jerk reaction from people online with this kind of stuff that reminds me most of the people who think everyone who commits a violent crime should be summarily executed on the spot. People aren't replaceable and it's much better to understand and correct antisocial behavior when and where possible rather than just jump straight to extracting vengeance. Our legal system hasn't worked off Lex Talionis for a good minute and there's a damn good reason for that; an eye for an eye leaves everyone blinded in the end. Babylon was not the pinnacle of society, guys. Revenge doesn't actually fix anything, and you can't solve a problem without knowing where it comes from.
I take a dim view of retaliative "justice", since it's usually just a way to make people feel better about hurting someone who hurt them because they have popular and/or legal support, and it encourages recidivism; people double down harder when you lash out at them like that.
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NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
I'm not saying that unthinking prejudice is somehow better or makes the person less worthy of fault, though I can see why you might have read that into what I posted. Just that the different motivations mean different things about a person's character.
I agree- ignorance that what you're doing is wrong isn't an excuse that lets you get away with it. It can explain it, but not excuse it.
As for changing people's minds, a large part of what makes it hard to convince people of anything new or different is that you're working against a pre-existing decision or belief. To convince them of what you're saying you need to not only prove the validity of your argument, but excise the existing incorrect belief. In the case of unthinking prejudice or bigotry that gives you an advantage, because chances are the person hasn't actually made their minds up on the topic- they just act the way they do because it's what they're used to. A minor but good example would be the whole issue around the word 'trap' and its transphobic connotations; prior to it being brought up on SV I had literally no idea there was any negative stigma to the word, simply because I'd never considered it. Then SV announced it was banning the use, I read the thread about it, and realised 'hey, now I think about it, I agree with this'. There was no 'but that word's fine to use!' idea to deal with first.
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No one mentioned any of that noise, and this is approaching a strawman argument cause I haven't advocated for any repercussions to this character. Like, you've made the idea that I brought that up out of whole cloth. All I've said is that if I see you hurting people, I'm going to label you as someone who hurts others. To quote that Brooklyn 9-9 moment, "cool motive, but it's still murder bro"
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At the risk of inviting the wrath of the mods, there's occasionally rational justifications, even moral ones, for murder.
Hate is fundamentally devoid of rationality. Speaking solely for myself, I don't tolerate hate or belligerent stupidity, which (especially in this context) aren't a Venn diagram so much as they are a wobbly-lined circle. There is a difference between people who make mistakes and can be reached, and people that will not change and cannot be reached, and that's a distinction people like us have to be able to see in an instant because, speaking for literally every queer friend and loved one in my life, our lives can (and often have) literally depend on it.
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NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Real life experience and expectations also play a role in how people react. It's much easier to think rationally and avoid knee-jerk reactions to things you've never experienced personally or have no expectation of ever experiencing- for example, murder. Transphobia, on the other hand, is a very real everyday threat to a lot of people on this forum, and something dealt with and faced on a daily basis. Thus, it (to be clear, 100% justifiably) provokes a very visceral and emotional response.
ADeshantis
King on the Chromium Throne
- Location
- United states
There was another post I was going to reply to but as it's vanished into the aether and I am entirely too tired to remember everything it said without looking at it, it no longer exists.
Same reason Umbridge gets more anvils dropped on her than Voldemort (who is, lest we forget, literally Wizard Hitler.) It's the devil you know. But still, holy shit do I hate feeling like I have to walk on eggshells if I at all disagree with what people are saying lest I get torn apart by literal piranha like I'm in a Bond villain deathtrap. I very rarely feel that sort of visceral emotional investment in anything and it's hard to relate to it because of that. It's a little intimidating.
Considering the non-Lily button answer to Snape's relative restraint re Holly is that Dumbeldore laid down the law for once; Grubby-Plank's going to be in a lot of trouble when Sirius and/or Hagrid and/or McGonagall find out
edit: and/or Molly of course
edit: and/or Molly of course
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Professor Grubby-Plank is not a real person. Someone wishing harm on a fictional character doesn't make them a bad person, and it certainly doesn't mean that they wish similar harm on real people. If anything, people are going to have a harsher response to the fictional transphobe as an outlet for feelings they know they can't act on with real transphobes. You don't need to lecture people on the flaws of retributive justice systems because they got mad at a fictional character.
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It would be one thing if the Unicorn had reacted badly to Holly or if there's something in the potions they might not like, but Grubby-Plank can't even muster bullshit as a cloak
The problem here is that villifying bigots, or anyone really, doesn't work when the goal is to convince them to change their opinions. So if you actualy want to make progress in improving things it's not the route to take.
Epsilon Rose
The King of Unrest
Now that's just inaccurate.
Grindalwald was Wizard Hitler. Voldemort is wizard Trump. 😝
He does seem to be taking his hiring practices much more seriously after the second year. Honestly, it's been a pleasant change of pace compared to the usual fare.
On the contrary, it's one of the more effective methods. That's why it gets condemned so much in the first place. Being "polite" and refusing to vilify bigots merely results in them becoming more open, assertive and certain in their bigotry.
Sandy River DL
(Verified Destroyer Leader)
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Care is needed, however, not to turn bigots into Disney Villains. That is counterproductive. It's not happening here though, so I'm not quite sure why there's people going 'y u be out for blood?'.
To quote a Christian saying hate the sin not the sinner. Vilify the bigotry not the bigot. Call them out let them know it's not OK but don't start treating them as inherently evil.
Edit: Anyway this is getting off topic so I'm going to leave it here.
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that's unfair. Voldemort was quite capable of carrying out a coup and starting a civil war
aside from the obvious and inevitable fact that anything made with the full knowledge of how the series turned out will be more consistent in its world building that Rowling's piecemeal (neon pink dumpster fire) approach; the manner in which the chamber matter was resolved seems to have given Dumbeldore alot more leeway, while Holly coming out and revealing just how badly he has screwed up with the Dursley's seems to have motivated him to be somewhat more proactive
That doesn't really work. It's never taken as anything but a way of vilifying someone while trying to pretend otherwise; hating the sin is hating the sinner. You can't condemn what people are or do without condemning the person as well.
That's why "hate the sin not the sinner" is routinely mocked as blatant dishonesty.