-
Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
How could you do this you monster.
Taking Gondar gives us less prep time since he actually comes looking for us instead of waiting in the temple like the others do.
Last edited:
- Location
- Italy
If it was 2 arete I would consider Selune the superior pick, but 4 arete isn't really that small of an Arete choice. It certainly more than what we generate during our typical update (even if patreon bonuses might now change that? haven't been following much on that for now) so I would consider it medium-sized? Just three arete away from a 7 arete option and we know how strong those can be.
Is it worth it to spend that much of an amount for our current situation, instead of rushing for an ESB and improving our chances that way? From my experience with the thread, I'd say we would be certainly capable of the latter. Though, if I had to choose beteen Avecarn and Gondar and a fight was inevitable, I'd say that while Avecarn is certainly the superior opponent we would probably have more updates to gather arete before facing him, while Gondar is bound to intercept us before we reach the Inner Temple.
Is it worth it to spend that much of an amount for our current situation, instead of rushing for an ESB and improving our chances that way? From my experience with the thread, I'd say we would be certainly capable of the latter. Though, if I had to choose beteen Avecarn and Gondar and a fight was inevitable, I'd say that while Avecarn is certainly the superior opponent we would probably have more updates to gather arete before facing him, while Gondar is bound to intercept us before we reach the Inner Temple.
As a member of Shadowgang, I was willing to spend exactly 7 Arete to improve Infiltration. We spent two instead. I'm still willing to spend the other 5 on it, and that's what vi Tries is to me.
I try to seriously consider spending Arete to achieve goals rather than gain power, since while power compounds itself, victory doesn't. That might sound backwards, but pressure causes escalation. As power compounds, it pressurizes and expands. Rapid power growth causes rapid pressurization and unmitigated escalation. Victory doesn't compound as easily, it requires context to pressurize. Its consequences are much easier to mitigate.
The Apocryphal Curse was considered twice as punishing as any other curse. We really should not be giving it ammunition if we don't have to.
I try to seriously consider spending Arete to achieve goals rather than gain power, since while power compounds itself, victory doesn't. That might sound backwards, but pressure causes escalation. As power compounds, it pressurizes and expands. Rapid power growth causes rapid pressurization and unmitigated escalation. Victory doesn't compound as easily, it requires context to pressurize. Its consequences are much easier to mitigate.
The Apocryphal Curse was considered twice as punishing as any other curse. We really should not be giving it ammunition if we don't have to.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
You should see those 4 arete as an investment for future battles. Knowledge is power. And she gives us ton of it where the Inner Temple is concerned. If we know about what sort of defenses and powers the inner residents have, Hunger and we can prepare for them properly in advance. No more going in blind. That might increase our chances substantially.
In the long term, if we can recruit her, she might easily be worth more than 4 arete.
Last edited:
It's a toss-up. His disdain for the job combined with apparent willingness to suborn the intent of his orders might be enough to cancel it out.
Jack-o'-Lantern
Local Shitposter
- Location
- Hell
[X] Gondar Hrsillimas
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
This guy seems like a pure combat encounter with no opening to initiate the infiltration plan nor that much influence if we did turn him. He'd probably attempt an alpha strike ambush without talking at all. On the other hand he'd do it outside the temple, probably alone and the fight could be over quickly which basically makes him free xp whose killing won't prejudice negotiations with someone who might make a deal further in. He might count as a worthy foe and provide some rank when we have to talk to:
The default difficulty setting of the infiltration approach. Yes, he'd parlay and yes he has some sway to back us with inside but we have fuck all chance of lying to him, fuck all of anything he wants (ooh another high power thug we can't trust, big wow!) and The Administration as a soul invocation sounds like Tyrant proc bait to me. Even if we talk our way past him picking him or Gondar means the non-existence of the vi Tries family who would be actual allies on the council.
If we want the infiltration to succeed she's well worth the arete.
[x] Selune vi Tries [Cost: 4 Arete]
If we're going with this infiltration plan let's commit to it.
[x] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
We may or may not get the required arete before we confront the Moon Ring but if we have it then auto winning the contest of primacy is sweet. The blood powers are pretty cool and refunds on ones we pick up piecemeal before we pull the trigger on this if we wait longer will be welcome.
- Location
- USA
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
Spending 1 arete to unlock EFBs honestly just seems worth it to me. It's good to have many options. Moreover I think we should get Crimson Flare asap, it's a good power-type EFB which we really need to beat the temple. And right now all of our power-type EFBs are from the Sword (The stances, Once and Future), which many people are very much opposed to since they want the "have one EFB of each type". So if we want a power-type EFB I think Crimson Flare is the only one that could probably win a vote.
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
With Crimson Flare I think we have a pretty good shot at beating him even if it comes to a fight; possibly we'll also need Hero-Defeating stance or the like, but I think that's doable if the end of the month gets us a lot of signature arete.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
Spending 1 arete to unlock EFBs honestly just seems worth it to me. It's good to have many options. Moreover I think we should get Crimson Flare asap, it's a good power-type EFB which we really need to beat the temple. And right now all of our power-type EFBs are from the Sword (The stances, Once and Future), which many people are very much opposed to since they want the "have one EFB of each type". So if we want a power-type EFB I think Crimson Flare is the only one that could probably win a vote.
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
With Crimson Flare I think we have a pretty good shot at beating him even if it comes to a fight; possibly we'll also need Hero-Defeating stance or the like, but I think that's doable if the end of the month gets us a lot of signature arete.
Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
- Location
- USA
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
Edeldross is cool, and I'm more scared of Gondar than I am of Avecarn. And I'd rather risk the snap-buy of HDS for 7 Arete if Avecarn comes to a fight than spend 4 on Selune, even though her name is doubly hinty and she sounds nice.
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
Edeldross is cool, and I'm more scared of Gondar than I am of Avecarn. And I'd rather risk the snap-buy of HDS for 7 Arete if Avecarn comes to a fight than spend 4 on Selune, even though her name is doubly hinty and she sounds nice.
- Location
- Brazil
@Rihaku how does attribute conversion work? So far I think we have seen 3 2 options that add one attribute to another, and I'm curious how it interacts with percentage increases to that attribute.
For example, Vigor Incarnate would transform charisma into protection, would that conversion be our total charisma?
If I'm not mistaken, we currently have 6 charisma. Taking silver + vigor Incarnate would increase our base charisma to 8 and effective charisma into 16.8(100% bonus from doubling, 60% bonus from Edeldross, -20% from puncturated, -30% from uttermost)
Would that then be directly converted into protection?
It would then add directly into our current protection, but the converted attribute wouldn't be multiplied, mostly because that would be hilariously broken.
If my math is correct, we would go from 2 protection to 18.8, on top of significantly increasingly the value of future charisma +, because they would be worth double and offer a useful combat stat.
Sorry if you already answered and I missed it!
For example, Vigor Incarnate would transform charisma into protection, would that conversion be our total charisma?
If I'm not mistaken, we currently have 6 charisma. Taking silver + vigor Incarnate would increase our base charisma to 8 and effective charisma into 16.8(100% bonus from doubling, 60% bonus from Edeldross, -20% from puncturated, -30% from uttermost)
Would that then be directly converted into protection?
It would then add directly into our current protection, but the converted attribute wouldn't be multiplied, mostly because that would be hilariously broken.
If my math is correct, we would go from 2 protection to 18.8, on top of significantly increasingly the value of future charisma +, because they would be worth double and offer a useful combat stat.
Sorry if you already answered and I missed it!
A point about Gondar, we may want to have to deal with him sooner rather than later. Think about what might happen if the infiltration is a success but the apocryphal hits yet with him in enemy territory, or what will happen if we save the ring by taking over or destroying the temple civilization leaving him to return to either the ruins of all he knows or a drastically changed state run by someone he hates. That's prime antagonist building materials right there so it might be best to just get him over with sooner rather than later.
Enohthree
Hypersane
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
Advance Edeldross manipulation allows us to increase our effective bonus by half of our magnitude, and Silver of Evening doubles our magnitude (from 30% to 60%). Assuming that @runeblue360 's character sheet already takes into account the 30% baseline upgrade from last update then in combat we can buff ourselves with the following on top of what's displayed on our character sheet if Silver is picked
Charisma: +++++++++++ (11)
Intelligence: ++
Wits: ++++
Protection: + (+1 Rank)
Agility: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (52)
Strength: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (26)
Constitution: ++++++++++++++++++++++++ (24)
Willpower: ++++
Manipulation: +
High enough STATS can defeat rank, and this is high stats indeed. 52 extra Agility isn't just a lot, it seems transformative. Quantity has a quality all of it's own and all that. We could take Stranglethorn and still be twice as fast as we were in combat.
This is on top of also bringing down Apocryphal Curse to a total of 70% power once a month if we choose so. With Magic Defeating Stance in the future we could get that down to 65%, which is a failing grade in most schools!
Advance Edeldross manipulation allows us to increase our effective bonus by half of our magnitude, and Silver of Evening doubles our magnitude (from 30% to 60%). Assuming that @runeblue360 's character sheet already takes into account the 30% baseline upgrade from last update then in combat we can buff ourselves with the following on top of what's displayed on our character sheet if Silver is picked
Charisma: +++++++++++ (11)
Intelligence: ++
Wits: ++++
Protection: + (+1 Rank)
Agility: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (52)
Strength: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (26)
Constitution: ++++++++++++++++++++++++ (24)
Willpower: ++++
Manipulation: +
High enough STATS can defeat rank, and this is high stats indeed. 52 extra Agility isn't just a lot, it seems transformative. Quantity has a quality all of it's own and all that. We could take Stranglethorn and still be twice as fast as we were in combat.
This is on top of also bringing down Apocryphal Curse to a total of 70% power once a month if we choose so. With Magic Defeating Stance in the future we could get that down to 65%, which is a failing grade in most schools!
Last edited:
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
Mhm. We will probably kill him at some point soon whatever we do. But I don't think Gondar has the potential to keep up with an Cursebearer even in the short-medium term, if he survives.
Erri has better odds of becoming an threatening antagonist.
Last edited:
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
All compelling stuff! The stat gain for 25 Arete is ridiculous and alluring. Is it possible to save for both Silver and Flare?
I'd like to have at least one pure potential EFB of at all possible.
[X] Evening Sky: Silver of Evening
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
I prefer Silver, although I think it's curse mitigation shines more when looking at Doom rather than Apocryphal, doom seeming much more suited to spike-based mitigation while apocryphal calls out for blanket, chipping mitigation.
[X] High Marshall Avecarn
I prefer Silver, although I think it's curse mitigation shines more when looking at Doom rather than Apocryphal, doom seeming much more suited to spike-based mitigation while apocryphal calls out for blanket, chipping mitigation.
TwistedJester
Tired Lurker King
- Location
- Hell
Assassinations have stakes don't they? If we can stealthily take down some choice opponents we could ramp up for the harder fights.
Not that it'll be easy with us not having any Stealth picks, but if we can pull it off it'll be grand.
Not that it'll be easy with us not having any Stealth picks, but if we can pull it off it'll be grand.
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Large Silver of Evening Argument Post
So, let's talk about how Silver of Evening is the best. Silver of Evening does five things, which I'm going to go through one at a time and then as a whole.
First, let's talk about the Agilty buff. We have Cut Through. That allows us to kill essentially everything, provided we can hit it. It also allows us to intercept and cut through any attacks launched at us. The main limitation of Cut Through is that we have to actually be able to hit opponents to kill them, and we need to be able to react fast enough to intercept attacks with our Praxis blade. Guess what stat determines both of those? That's right, Agility. Silver of Evening gives us +130% Agility, +145% under enhancement. Silver of Evening is the most synergistic EFB with Cut Through. You know what's better then two EFBs? Two EFBs that synergize with each other. Furthermore, we've been investing in physical stats all game. Remember my huge history and analysis post? We've invested more in physical stats then any other thing, period. Silver of Evening multiplies the most important and powerful of the physical stats. As such, it has the highest synergy with our current build of anything we could get.
Next, let's talk about the charisma buff. We're going to have to rule an empire eventually. Having massive charisma will help with that. Furthermore, being able to steamroll people in social is always valuable. And then we have Vigor Incarnate - a 2-Arete option that adds our Charisma to our Protection. This has immense synergy with Silver of Evening, allowing us to get truly monumental protection for very cheaply. Silver of Evening, in addition to synergizing with Cut Through and our entire build's greatest strength, also synergizes incredibly well with the Blood Advancements, which are already our most effective no-Arete and low-Arete options.
Now we get to defensive rank. I should remind people that Once and Future, a mixed power/potential EFB, gives +1 rank, +2 in many relevant situations. +1 Rank applied defensively is worth perhaps a quarter of that. So the entire rest of Silver of Evening should be considered as if it was only costing 3/4th on an EFB, and it's already kind of completely ridiculous.
Now let's talk Edeldross. I've already touched on it with Agility and Charisma, factoring the doubled potency into the calculations for those. But it bears repeating that Edeldross apples to every stat. Including Willpower, which is our Praxis-associated stat and also adds to our Might and Agility (ohe hey look even more agility). This also applies to Protection, Intelligence, and any future stats we might gain access to like Wisdom, Luck, Stealth, ect. And remember, our Edeldross proficiency will increase in the future, and all future increases will also be doubled, giving Silver of Evening high potential growth as well.
Now let's talk about that once-a-month perfect defense. This has many uses. For example, if Hunger would suddenly die because we made a bad decision or got an unlucky roll, this could save him. It could also be used to de-fang the Apocryphal curse for two days, if we ever need to do something vital that we can't afford a severe interruption of. It could also be used to buck the Tyrant's Doom for brief periods, which may be necessary if we ever have to interact with a powerful civilization we can't afford to piss off. I should note that this is the only thing we've seen so far that can bypass the drawback of Uttermost. We haven't actually have a Tyrant Proc all game, so I think many people are underestimating how bad it could be. Having some form of assurance for that could be very very helpful for Not Dying.
Final Thoughts: I've been harping on synergy this whole post, but it bares to be said that Silver of Evening is the single most synergistic EFB with our current build. It synergizes very well with Physical stats, the thing we have the most investment into. It synergizes with Cut Through, our previous EFB. It synergizes with Edeldross, which we've spent 9 Arete on. It synergizes with Quickening and Blood Buffs, which we've spent 7 Arete and many picks on. It provides a method of bypassing the Doom of the Tyrant, which is a major weakness of our current build since we can't mitigate it. Silver of Evening also provides a lot of immediate power, in a situation where Rihaku has warned us that we should probably not take potential-based options. Silver of Evening does provide some potential though, by massively multiplying the effectiveness of Vigor Incarnate and giving our future Edeldross Advancements more oomph.
In Conclusion,
Rihaku himself has noted Silver of Evening's immense synergy with our build. Note he calls it "very synergistic" and "the most synergistic." We have word of Rihaku that Silver of Evening is the most synergistic thing we could get, and anyone is considering voting against it? I don't understand. Haven't people complained in the past about our lack of synergy? Don't people want to achieve maximum power?
Silver of Evening brings together every single major Arete expenditure we've made all quest. It's an Evening Sky advancement, it massively benefits all the Sword options we've taken including Cut Through, our largest Arete expenditure, it plays perfectly with our massive stats, it enhances our Blood Advancements, which were unlocked by Chief Dominion, it buffs the magic system we bought and got an upgrade for...
That's right. Now that I think of it, and analyze all the options... Silver of Evening synergizes with every major Arete expenditure we've made the entire quest. It also ties them all together, uniting everything we have into a single coherent build. How can anyone vote against that?
[X] Silver of Evening
So, let's talk about how Silver of Evening is the best. Silver of Evening does five things, which I'm going to go through one at a time and then as a whole.
First, let's talk about the Agilty buff. We have Cut Through. That allows us to kill essentially everything, provided we can hit it. It also allows us to intercept and cut through any attacks launched at us. The main limitation of Cut Through is that we have to actually be able to hit opponents to kill them, and we need to be able to react fast enough to intercept attacks with our Praxis blade. Guess what stat determines both of those? That's right, Agility. Silver of Evening gives us +130% Agility, +145% under enhancement. Silver of Evening is the most synergistic EFB with Cut Through. You know what's better then two EFBs? Two EFBs that synergize with each other. Furthermore, we've been investing in physical stats all game. Remember my huge history and analysis post? We've invested more in physical stats then any other thing, period. Silver of Evening multiplies the most important and powerful of the physical stats. As such, it has the highest synergy with our current build of anything we could get.
Next, let's talk about the charisma buff. We're going to have to rule an empire eventually. Having massive charisma will help with that. Furthermore, being able to steamroll people in social is always valuable. And then we have Vigor Incarnate - a 2-Arete option that adds our Charisma to our Protection. This has immense synergy with Silver of Evening, allowing us to get truly monumental protection for very cheaply. Silver of Evening, in addition to synergizing with Cut Through and our entire build's greatest strength, also synergizes incredibly well with the Blood Advancements, which are already our most effective no-Arete and low-Arete options.
Now we get to defensive rank. I should remind people that Once and Future, a mixed power/potential EFB, gives +1 rank, +2 in many relevant situations. +1 Rank applied defensively is worth perhaps a quarter of that. So the entire rest of Silver of Evening should be considered as if it was only costing 3/4th on an EFB, and it's already kind of completely ridiculous.
Now let's talk Edeldross. I've already touched on it with Agility and Charisma, factoring the doubled potency into the calculations for those. But it bears repeating that Edeldross apples to every stat. Including Willpower, which is our Praxis-associated stat and also adds to our Might and Agility (ohe hey look even more agility). This also applies to Protection, Intelligence, and any future stats we might gain access to like Wisdom, Luck, Stealth, ect. And remember, our Edeldross proficiency will increase in the future, and all future increases will also be doubled, giving Silver of Evening high potential growth as well.
Now let's talk about that once-a-month perfect defense. This has many uses. For example, if Hunger would suddenly die because we made a bad decision or got an unlucky roll, this could save him. It could also be used to de-fang the Apocryphal curse for two days, if we ever need to do something vital that we can't afford a severe interruption of. It could also be used to buck the Tyrant's Doom for brief periods, which may be necessary if we ever have to interact with a powerful civilization we can't afford to piss off. I should note that this is the only thing we've seen so far that can bypass the drawback of Uttermost. We haven't actually have a Tyrant Proc all game, so I think many people are underestimating how bad it could be. Having some form of assurance for that could be very very helpful for Not Dying.
Final Thoughts: I've been harping on synergy this whole post, but it bares to be said that Silver of Evening is the single most synergistic EFB with our current build. It synergizes very well with Physical stats, the thing we have the most investment into. It synergizes with Cut Through, our previous EFB. It synergizes with Edeldross, which we've spent 9 Arete on. It synergizes with Quickening and Blood Buffs, which we've spent 7 Arete and many picks on. It provides a method of bypassing the Doom of the Tyrant, which is a major weakness of our current build since we can't mitigate it. Silver of Evening also provides a lot of immediate power, in a situation where Rihaku has warned us that we should probably not take potential-based options. Silver of Evening does provide some potential though, by massively multiplying the effectiveness of Vigor Incarnate and giving our future Edeldross Advancements more oomph.
In Conclusion,
Rihaku himself has noted Silver of Evening's immense synergy with our build. Note he calls it "very synergistic" and "the most synergistic." We have word of Rihaku that Silver of Evening is the most synergistic thing we could get, and anyone is considering voting against it? I don't understand. Haven't people complained in the past about our lack of synergy? Don't people want to achieve maximum power?
Silver of Evening brings together every single major Arete expenditure we've made all quest. It's an Evening Sky advancement, it massively benefits all the Sword options we've taken including Cut Through, our largest Arete expenditure, it plays perfectly with our massive stats, it enhances our Blood Advancements, which were unlocked by Chief Dominion, it buffs the magic system we bought and got an upgrade for...
That's right. Now that I think of it, and analyze all the options... Silver of Evening synergizes with every major Arete expenditure we've made the entire quest. It also ties them all together, uniting everything we have into a single coherent build. How can anyone vote against that?
[X] Silver of Evening
Last edited: