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A Simple Transaction I

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Shard said:
Of course, the only way to know would be to hear them out, no?
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My point is the answer doesn't matter. Either taking the ring leaves them a sustainable civ or it doesn't. If it doesn't it's on them for setting up a house of cards without a soft landing when they knew from the start the edifice had a glaring failure state.

If we were powerful enough that such actions wouldn't harm our primary goal we could try to engage in such and be assured that the increasing the difficulty wouldn't mean failure. As is though we're weak enough we need to focus on the approaches with the highest percentage chance of success, and opening a flow of information like this takes us away from our core strengths and leaves us fighting in an arena that doesn't suit us as much.
 
Atrocities and discounts coupons aside, damn Grand Nullification is good. If we actually do pick companions, I suggest we pick it; -20% Apocryphal curse magnitude is some pretty serious mitigation.
 
[X] Sublime Attainment
[X] Hear Them Out

I'm against any form of mental contamination. I don't want Hunger to become the forebearer in any way, shape, or form. Taking his powers and using them for good is fine, but ultimately, i see Hunger as an hero, an very fucked up hero, but i would hate for him to become the very thing that he swore to destroy.
 
Current vote count?

To be clear:

*Incident Nullity does almost nothing right now, so it's likely not helpful for getting you out of the Temple. You're basically trading it all for future potential, which, given where you are...
*Lance of Nullity is extremely strong but still fired at a relatively slow speed. It's quite useful right now and can improve your odds in some fights.
*Grand Nullification is absurdly good and if you're going for raw potential there's really no reason not to take this.
*Sublime Attainment makes Gisena close to a peer-level party member for many purposes, substantially improving your odds in almost every fight

Enohthree said:
You know what's a good way to distract yourself from the fact that you're killing people who might just be protecting their way of life?
Saving people who are at that moment being killed by the former group!
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But they're only being killed because those people are defending their way of life! It's not their fault they're indirectly torturing a Ring!

Shard said:
Come on, Cut Through only gives a 1 Arete discount, that's like 0.5 BP. You guys weren't willing to screw over a random dude for 1 BP in EFB, or genocide Vane for 2 BP or genocide the elves for 5 BP. Or torture the uncaring callous fates for 7 BP.
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I wouldn't put those on the same scale as this. For all we know, the torture of the ring could correspond to suffering far worse than any human mind could conceive of, suffering so great that saving it is arguably the correct decision!
 
Dark Abstraction said:
You brought this travesty upon yourself, you memeing fool!

BEHOLD! THE TRUE FORM OF...

THE FOUR BEAR!
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The thing I love most is that one of those bears gave up their sword specifically because they wanted to carry a sign that said effectively said "ffffffffffuck outta here with your stinki maeg bilds."* and wanted to use the other arm to point at it for emphasis.

* @Taka , are you actually four ursines that were attached to each other by the efforts of some shithead wizard? Because if you are, you have to tell me. Otherwise, it's entrapment.
 
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Rihaku said:
I wouldn't put those on the same scale as this. For all we know, the torture of the ring could correspond to suffering far worse than any human mind could conceive of, suffering so great that saving it is arguably the correct decision!
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Hmm.. we were willing to cast Tyranshal into the void with no recourse for 0.2 BP. But very well then:

[X] Sublime Attainment
[X] Opportunistic Raiding

The option with the aggregated lowest risk for hunger - 0.8 success chance for an average of 10% effectiveness yields an average of 8% increase in efficacy.
 
Rihaku said:
But they're only being killed because those people are defending their way of life! It's not their fault they're indirectly torturing a Ring!
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Something something a single extra flip flop of 'I'm only hurting you because you're hurting him whose only hurting them' is more than enough for me!
Rihaku said:
I wouldn't put those on the same scale as this. For all we know, the torture of the ring could correspond to suffering far worse than any human mind could conceive of, suffering so great that saving it is arguably the correct decision!
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I'm still half expecting the Ring to be evil and actually deserving of it's torment for it's crimes or whatever as a final twist, but regardless I refuse to submit to outer bounds single actor moral weighting so easily!
 
[X] Sublime Attainment
[X] Opportunistic Raiding


Rihaku said:
*Sublime Attainment makes Gisena close to a peer-level party member for many purposes, substantially improving your odds in almost every fight
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good stuff.
 
runeblue360 said:
The thing I love most is that one of those bears gave up their sword specifically because they wanted to carry a sign that said effectively said "ffffffffffuck outta here with your stinki maeg bilds."* and wanted to use the other arm to point at it for emphasis.

* @Taka , are you actually four ursines that were attached to each other by the efforts of some shithead wizard? Because if you are, you have to tell me. Otherwise, it's entrapment.
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All shall be revealed once I unironically start making shitty bear puns.
 
Enohthree said:
I'm still half expecting the Ring to be evil and actually deserving of it's torment for it's crimes or whatever as a final twist, but regardless I refuse to submit to outer bounds single actor moral weighting so easily!
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Reminds me of the time in Magus quest the thread decided slavery was okay as long as a dragon was doing it.
 
And now for my actual vote (now supported by fanwork power!)

[X] Incident Nullification
[X] Cut Through

I think that Incident Nullification would be an incredible skillset for Gisea to develop if nurtured, and I don't think that boosting her stats is really optimal simply because if we ever fully set aside time to boost her with Blood and/or take an Arete/Pick option in a vote for boosting her we'd achieve similar results so it would be less quantifiably distinctive.

As for how to proceed, let's stick with that momentum! We're in a fairly good place to pursue it and it's consistent in theme to the last couple votes; be the change you want to see, start voting for consistency of action now, folks!
 
Extremely high effort edit of my previous artists rendition to account for new information.



My understanding is that Sub Lime Attainment will cause Gisena to grow to around a kilometer in height and grant her a powerful eye beam attack. She'll also be granted eternal shade thanks to the sizable lime that forever exists above her representing the maidens grace or findross or something.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
My point is the answer doesn't matter. Either taking the ring leaves them a sustainable civ or it doesn't. If it doesn't it's on them for setting up a house of cards without a soft landing when they knew from the start the edifice had a glaring failure state.
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Remembering that we're an outside-context problem with the implicit backing of the Accursed, I'm not sure any edifice could be said to be stable if we should decide its implications unacceptable. So judging them based on the premise that they should have expected their Ring to call for help when our Sun could be similarly accused of vulnerability to star-eating space worms is perhaps intellectually disingenuous.

On the moral debate: there are numerous possible explanations for their presence and association with the torture of the Ring. Perhaps the runes that keep the Call from controlling them might not work past a certain distance, and they are the prisoners here. Or the Ring might be malevolent, and their efforts to protect the Voyaging Realm at large from its power have precluded reasoning with Call-afflicted adventurers on practical grounds. Perhaps they are not so unaffected as they believe, and have simply become another portion of the Temple's defenses.

Are any of the above likely? No. But then the End of Stories showing up and giving a half-dead amnesiac amputee a second chance at heroism was pretty unlikely too. We can't assume that just because we want things to be clear-cut and morally easy means they will be. Down that road lies tyranny - and not the kind you can blame on a Doom.
 
Enohthree said:
I'm still half expecting the Ring to be evil and actually deserving of it's torment for it's crimes or whatever as a final twist, but regardless I refuse to submit to outer bounds single actor moral weighting so easily!
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THE COALITION OF ANTS: There is no way that a "human" life could be worth that of 10,000 ants! We refuse to submit to this utility monster called humanity!

On a more serious note, while it's arguable whether saving the ring is in the moral right, can it be argued that torturing an undeserving* individual is ever not a moral wrong outside of utilitarian systems? And if utilitarianism is accepted, then the problem of the utility monster looms again... its cognition vast and all-encompassing, like the neverending sky...

*Assuming it's undeserved

LordOfMurder said:
Reminds me of the time in Magus quest the thread decided slavery was okay as long as a dragon was doing it.
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Hm... I wouldn't characterize it in quite that way. I don't even know if we're talking about the same quest, though.

Box Lunch said:
Remembering that we're an outside-context problem with the implicit backing of the Accursed, I'm not sure any edifice could be said to be stable if we should decide its implications unacceptable. So judging them based on the premise that they should have expected their Ring to call for help when our Sun could be similarly accused of vulnerability to star-eating space worms is perhaps intellectually disingenuous.
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On the other hand, they've known about the "Ring calling for help" issue for presumably some time, as their entire civilization has developed means to defend against it, such as developing the sigils and implementing their outrider system!
 
Enohthree said:
I'm still half expecting the Ring to be evil and actually deserving of it's torment for it's crimes or whatever as a final twist, but regardless I refuse to submit to outer bounds single actor moral weighting so easily!
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Hey, Zang Kong's utility monster shtick did secure his survival in EFB.

[X] Grand Nullification
[X] Cut Through

Grand Nullification is amazing, how many Cursebearers achieve 20% mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse inside a month? If we take Mage-Defeating Stance, we could get it down another five percent! Taking a bite out of the biggest medium and long term threat to our safety's easily worth 2 Arete. Memes aside, Cut Through is a very strong option. The effectiveness bonus works with the remaining 5% of I Am the Danger to counteract Lingering Paralysis and Chill of the Grave, both still active. Plus, it's a free pick and free Arete put toward OaF, bringing us up to an 8% discount on that EFB.

Hunger was meticulous in his avoidance of civilian casualties last time around; the enemies we'll be facing are combatants, those who chose to put their lives on the line to defend a civilization that runs on suffering. No soul among them can claim ignorance, not with the Call of the Temple echoing in their ears. The sigils may block it out, but they've all heard it at one time or another. And if they stand in the way of liberation, they'll be cut down. Consider the legend of invincible destruction we could forge in the process.
 
runeblue360 said:
The thing I love most is that one of those bears gave up their sword specifically because they wanted to carry a sign that said effectively said "ffffffffffuck outta here with your stinki maeg bilds."* and wanted to use the other arm to point at it for emphasis.
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In theory it's a tower shield, since the Fourbear is a bulwark for his allies against the predations of his meager foes. But a sign is perfectly valid too; why should the Fourbear cater to the principle of gaining protection from equipment? Their feeble assaults shall break upon his chiseled urisine abs like water on rock. And in the mean time. "Neener neener, spells are for weenies!"
 
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Rihaku said:
can it be argued that torturing an undeserving* individual is ever not a moral wrong outside of utilitarian systems? And if utilitarianism is accepted, then the problem of the utility monster looms again... its cognition vast and all-encompassing, like the neverending sky...
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It's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" except instead of rescuing the child we kidnap it to power our own, better utopia.
 
Rihaku said:
Hm... I wouldn't characterize it in quite that way. I don't even know if we're talking about the same quest, though.
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Well I was probably exaggerating for comic effect and I think the real reason was people were scared they couldn't take the dragon in a fight? I was referring to your quest and the dragon that gave us Zhuzheng.
 
[X] Cut Through
[X] Grand Nullification


This does pretty much everything we need.

Still torn on Gisena, I'll probably go with the Ult spam or stats. Mitigation is incredibly tempting even though it's really counting chickens before they've hatched.

Box Lunch said:
Remembering that we're an outside-context problem with the implicit backing of the Accursed, I'm not sure any edifice could be said to be stable if we should decide its implications unacceptable. So judging them based on the premise that they should have expected their Ring to call for help when our Sun could be similarly accused of vulnerability to star-eating space worms is perhaps intellectually disingenuous.
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Seems an extreme reach to suggest there's no other possible threats in this verse that might take offense to eternal torture, plus loot.

Box Lunch said:
Are any of the above likely? No. But then the End of Stories showing up and giving a half-dead amnesiac amputee a second chance at heroism was pretty unlikely too. We can't assume that just because we want things to be clear-cut and morally easy means they will be. Down that road lies tyranny - and not the kind you can blame on a Doom.
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When we meet one that doesn't shoot first is when I even begin to start considering perhaps putting ourselves in a disadvantageous position to explore some form of accommodation for them. Until then I'm quite happy to continue killing them. Even at that point I'm going to be very hard to convince seeing as it's almost certain they're only doing so at that point because they think they can't kill us.
 
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Orm Embar said:
Grand Nullification is amazing, how many Cursebearers achieve 20% mitigation of the Apocryphal Curse inside a month? If we take Mage-Defeating Stance, we could get it down another five percent!
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[X] Grand Nullification
[X] Cut Through

Yeah, this is almost exactly what I thought too. 25% Mitigation of the worst Curse we're bearing would be amazing and do more for our long term safety than anything else we could pick. And I really don't care for continuing to invest in Gisena, no matter how much I like seeing her around, there's no way she can keep up even in the mid-term without Retinue so we're better served just maximising our power and letting her be the social/science support character.
 
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