If we Aggressively explore the Temple and find a monster that requires the use of the Form, it's almost certainly guarding incredible treasure.
No. It isn't. That is a terrible assumption! We know absolutely nothing about the inside of the temple and the monsters we face. It could easily have roaming floor bosses, dead-end monster nest traps, a chain of escalating fights, etc. Have you never played a video game? There are countless ways this dungeon could be set up, and you're calling out the only one that your build works for as if it is the only possibility!

You are assuming we will be able to trigger it once and retreat. While picking the option for diving in full speed ahead. That is contradictory!
 
You know, it would be easier from an argument perspective to simply assume that the dungeon's encounters are random but difficult, as opposed to assuming they are the sort which favors either your build, or is against another build, or somesuch.
 
Please do not vote aggressive with Immortal Regiment. It is a poor fit.
Aggressive is better with Immortal Regiment since Gisena can stop us torpedoing social encounters!

Murderer's Panoply has just as good of an Stat boost and other options are not that far from it. so it's nothing unique to the option. So, meh.

Though, it's an viable option with an conservative approach I suppose.
Vanguard has identical stats to Panoply the only difference is we switch out thousand cuts for Gisena. This costs us some offensive power of course but gains us much more utility and social strength.
 
Aggressive 'vastly improves chances of Rank gain from encounters'. Rage lets us survive the kinds of fights that would give us a Rank up. Of course it's a perfect fit.
Until it gets us exhausted and kills because we needed to trigger it a second time. I just don't understand what is so hard to follow about this.

Rage gives us a level in tired if used. It has the weakest base form, notably weaker than Immortal, hence we will need to trigger the form for significantly more things. As a result if we encounter two such things we die. Barring a miraculous escape from the temple while unable to channel more than a bare drop of our rank.

You know, it would be easier from an argument perspective to simply assume that the dungeon's encounters are random but difficult, as opposed to assuming they are the sort which favors either your build, or is against another build, or somesuch.
I am? I mean I'm only bringing up all the various ways it could be set up because they mentioned the sole one that favors Rage. Random is also bad for rage, since it means monsters and loot could be disconnected.

Aggressive is better with Immortal Regiment since Gisena can stop us torpedoing social encounters!
Social encounters are not the problem there. Stabbing every monster that moves is, as we will have the weakest offense.

Anyway I'm giving up for the night. Please think carefully. Rihaku does not offer trap options... but several combinations are obvious traps if you think past the SHINY! bias. I fully acknowledge the flaw with my own build and believe we can overcome it by being careful.

I have not seen a single person voting for it actually acknowledge the Rage build's most serious flaw in anything but an offhand dismissal. This is not good. It leads to getting us killed because you aren't accepting that you have a seriously exploitable weakness. (Hostile adventurers just waiting for Rage to expire to kill us, anyone?)
 
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Social encounters are not the problem there. Stabbing every monster that moves is, as we will have the weakest offense.
I don't think it has a particularly weak offense though? Just how much are underestimating Gisena? I'd argue Vanguard is stronger offensively than Forbidden and about the same as Barest Cuts. With much greater utility for combating the traps, puzzles and social encounters we'll also be diving headfirst into.
 
[X] Murderer's Panoply
[X] Aggressive
[X] Absolute Focus


Oh, how he burns like Venus in the Evening Sky....

Rank isn't worth taking with Panoply, I think, compared to Focus/Ring Affinity. It's not a large amount of Rank, and we'll likely be stacking up Rank anyways, so picking a greater temporary multiplier now in Focus might be worth more permanent Rank overall than the immediate pick. I'm not sure what Ring Affinity does, obviously, so it's hard to weight it effectively against Focus. I'm actually really curious what it does, but I have a policy of not jumping on ??? options in cases like these. I think that stacking a further 10% effectiveness on top of our already existing effectiveness bonus, and perhaps a little more, is absolutely worth 2 unrealized Arete.

Panoply over Barest Cut, still, because I don't think holding back at this point in time is going to make the most of this situation. Panoply over Regiment because I think Regiment doesn't provide a high enough grade of firepower supremacy. Panoply over Bright Vanquisher because I think Rage is tactically risky to exploit the way that people are imagining, and adds little to our everyday abilities without incurring massive negative characterization problems (per Rihaku).

Aggressive because Panoply can actually follow through hard on such a strategy, and therefore should probably take it. I could be convinced around to Conservative , on the grounds that risking as little as possible is the best way for someone with unlimited progression to win whatever scenario they're in, but we're actually under constant threat by the Apocryphal Curse, so the risk of choosing Aggressive and being severely injured/dying is up against the risk that without enough power, we'll be in a worse and riskier situation later on (vs. Ber, Astral Lords, etc.).
 
If we don't take Vanguard what are people planning to do when we encounter a problem we can't cut our way through? Especially with Aggresive where we don't really retreat?
 
>mfw cuts is still the most popular option but has its votes split in three

[X] Ring Affinity
[X] Aggressive
[X] Murderer's Panoply

For those voting for Barest Cut:
If you want to keep everyone safe, the best bet is (short of generating 15+ Arete before you reach the Temple) taking Conservative and spending at least 7 Arete on some means of immediate power during the intervening monster fights. 7 + 2 multiple times if you can afford it, or two synergistic 7s maybe!
It is not enough. It definitely doesn't make us safe enough. Picking a conservative approach to mitigate this misses on the whole point of the Temple and Barest Cut itself, as we wouldn't gain strength enough to make this worthwhile.

Power is the ultimate recourse here. Murderer's Panoply is better because we'd still have better defenses than Vanguard has offense; the latter doesn't close out this hole in our build, the former does. It is therefore the most complete and likely to be prepared for whatever may come. We have ++INT and ++++CHA, social and metal challenges should not pose that much more of threat than if we have Gisena on tow. The priority should be preparing for stuff that is more likely to outright kill us like monsters rather than puzzles and social encounters anyway. Even if we fail social, something possible even with Gisena, Panoply is the most likely to have the raw power to survive it anyway.
Vanguard has identical stats to Panoply the only difference is we switch out thousand cuts for Gisena. This costs us some offensive power of course but gains us much more utility and social strength.
If we don't take Vanguard what are people planning to do when we encounter a problem we can't cut our way through?
We still have ++INT, ++++CHA and Rank to help us, we are far from powerless in those situations. We should prioritize safety against what might outright kill us anyway.
 
We still have ++INT, ++++CHA and Rank to help us, we are far from powerless in those situations. We should prioritize safety against what might outright kill us anyway.
Our cha is essentially useless against anyone who isn't a hopeless woobie like Zea, especially with the Aggressive option and 2 Int is not enough for me to be confident in.
 
Our cha is essentially useless against anyone who isn't a hopeless woobie like Zea, especially with the Aggressive option and 2 Int is not enough for me to be confident in.
??? It would have worked on those merchants in Plumed Offering as well, and they presumably had some degree of experience. Our CHA is CHA, not some "woobie whisperer" bonus.
 
??? It would have worked on those merchants in Plumed Offering as well, and they presumably had some degree of experience. Our CHA is CHA, not some "woobie whisperer" bonus.
It works well on people that are too scared to stand up to us, because the moment they do they're almost certainly going to trigger the Tyrant's doom. Given that the people we meet here are hardcore adventurers our presence isn't going to overwhelm them like it has so far.
 
Until it gets us exhausted and kills because we needed to trigger it a second time. I just don't understand what is so hard to follow about this.

Rage gives us a level in tired if used. It has the weakest base form, notably weaker than Immortal, hence we will need to trigger the form for significantly more things. As a result if we encounter two such things we die. Barring a miraculous escape from the temple while unable to channel more than a bare drop of our rank.
The same thing that is hard to follow about us being able to win more difficult fights - which we can expect with Aggressive - and thus ending up stronger even when Tired than we started out initially. So we take a risk we couldn't have otherwise and retreat, which is the point of Aggressive exploration.
 
??? It would have worked on those merchants in Plumed Offering as well, and they presumably had some degree of experience. Our CHA is CHA, not some "woobie whisperer" bonus.
I suspect high level adventurers are a fair deal more resistant than merchants. But Murder is also rather... annoyingly monofocused on Gisena, so his arguments aren't always very sensible.

The same thing that is hard to follow about us being able to win more difficult fights - which we can expect with Aggressive - and thus ending up stronger even when Tired than we started out initially. So we take a risk we couldn't have otherwise and retreat, which is the point of Aggressive exploration.
Why are you assuming someone that takes aggressive gets to retreat after a single fight? My read of it is it's exactly the opposite - aggressive isn't going to leave unless they absolutely find something worth hauling out. You're basically projecting what I wish was a middle ground option onto aggressive because it works best for the build. Unfortunately we were not given said middle option.
 
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It works well on people that are too scared to stand up to us, because the moment they do they're almost certainly going to trigger the Tyrant's doom. Given that the people we meet here are hardcore adventurers our presence isn't going to overwhelm them like it has so far.

How the hell would other people know that we have the Tyrant's Doom? Neither of our party members would know the specific details of our curses at all if we hadn't told them! You can't honestly read our repartee with Gisena as happening because Hunger is somehow mechanically replacing being witty with being threatening when the actual dialogue is right there.
 
Why are you assuming someone that takes aggressive gets to retreat after a single fight?
Because it's called 'Aggressive', not 'Suicidal'. It's not like we turn on some sort of berseker button in our head, we simply decide to take on greater challenges to obtain greater rewards. Should Rage be employed, that means we've taken that greater challenge and can retreat temporarily to recover.
 
Current vote count?

??? It would have worked on those merchants in Plumed Offering as well, and they presumably had some degree of experience. Our CHA is CHA, not some "woobie whisperer" bonus.

Yeah, it's best to model CHA as normal, except that Tyrant adds an unknown% chance of Hunger flipping out (or causing his interlocutors to flip out) that can't be saved against. Still, if Hunger is powerful enough that his flipping out doesn't result in terrible outcomes for you, that's not really an issue...
 
Because it's called 'Aggressive', not 'Suicidal'. It's not like we turn on some sort of berseker button in our head, we simply decide to take on greater challenges to obtain greater rewards. Should Rage be employed, that means we've taken that greater challenge and can retreat temporarily to recover.
Unfortunately it is part of Hunger's characterization that he will push even when exhausted. Thank you, Fishing vote, so do not expect him to turn around just because he is tired. We voted away that level of sensibility. There is a reason Rihaku phrased it
you will also push yourself as you have been all this time.
 
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It works well on people that are too scared to stand up to us, because the moment they do they're almost certainly going to trigger the Tyrant's doom. Given that the people we meet here are hardcore adventurers our presence isn't going to overwhelm them like it has so far.
Luckily Panoply's the strongest of all three builds! So we have a higher chance of standing up to them. Not that I think social capability and adventuring power is in anyway correlated anyway. I mean, Letrizia's practically a kitten!
I suspect high level adventurers are a fair deal more resistant than merchants. But Murder is also rather... annoyingly monofocused on Gisena, so his arguments aren't always very sensible.


Why are you assuming someone that takes aggressive gets to retreat after a single fight? My read of it is it's exactly the opposite - aggressive isn't going to leave unless they absolutely find something worth hauling out.
Heh.

As I said above. I don't think there's a correlation between social adroitness and adventuring power. They seem unrelated capabilities. So getting power to leverage over those we can't social and relying on our CHA for those that can be seems like the safest alternative. Power's the ultimate recourse, after all. If we meet someone who is both more powerful than us and more socially adroit than us, I don't think Gisena would help much anyway...

And @Rihaku said as much above while I was typing this; thanks I guess.
 
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