My soul and power-system is a detatchable magic item. I've got an escalating crush on the Shogun, who is basically just polite to me when we pass in the hallway. I burned all of my memories and personality to pay for a cool robot sword, but it hasn't hatched into an Armament yet and I couldn't even afford the ISH upgrade or Nova-equivalent stats. Nobody will talk to me until after I've resolved their quest hook. I have to clear out all the Hierarchs and Titans from the local ontology's basement. One of those Hierarchs is stalking me and wants to wear me like a skinsuit. And the Praehihr are coming back.

Refine the Dross only burns the memories of your prior Foremost self, which the current you doesn't remember anyway! Its real cost to the current you is the Tokens.

Uttermost: Tripled Yang Path, immunity to mind affecting, Alchemy
Magic system: God-King: Providence provides +Luck to self and equivalent -Luck to enemies, scaled to my Wits. Effect is amplified by # of worshippers

It looks like you were planning on taking Alchemy before pivoting to God-King? If +/- LCK is the only thing this magic system does, the magnitude would certainly be great! Though at that point it's basically just Rank...

I am incarnated as an embryonic Foremost (statline 30) with the defenses of an adolescent (statline 50). The Hierarch stalking me is only a little smarter than me, and has decisively lower physical stats at quest start. My unbreakable sword is going to grow into a giant unbreakable space robot that I can use to terraform a dyson sphere to hold my dystopic battery of human faith-batteries worshiping the robot. End of list.

Defensively you're actually considerably more powerful than that, as most embryonic Foremost only have 25 +s in several stats instead of 30 +s in all of them, to say nothing of your additional Emblem, magic system and so on. In terms of pure statline you would probably be as difficult to kill as a Foremost with ~57-60 +s in all their Attributes - which is to say impossible for either Hierarch or Delve residents to slay unless they have a perfect Emblem-level counter to Unsetting Sun. You could probably even take Kid Gloves off without dying, which would save you a lot of Insights. Even if you die, you're a servant of the Shogun so when his Unsetting Sun procs due to a major hit you'll be auto-resurrected, and be able to use your (subjective days) of resurrected-time to find a way to make that permanent. Far from impossible with 30 Int + Wis and access to the right magic systems! Evoker's Panoply alone might be able to manage it with enough development, depending on the cause of your death.
 
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It looks like you were planning on taking Alchemy before pivoting to God-King? If +/- LCK is the only thing this magic system does, the magnitude would certainly be great! Though at that point it's basically just Rank...
Yes, the original plan was to liquidate the population of my city-state into a philosopher's stone (like Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist). The pivot came when I was waffling between Hierarch 1 and 2. My thinking was that a transmutation circle would take too much time if the Hierarch decided to attack right when I spawned. AST1 mentions that Rank scales with popularity / renown, but Hunger never engaged with that system so my guess was that population scaling was pretty weak out-of-the-box. Hence: Religious worship as a DIY Channeler Legion.

(I doubt the ambush of a 2-insight version of Hierarch would even be inconvenienced by the displacement of deploying a civilization on top of him, so it was important to get the power up and running quickly.)


Defensively you're actually considerably more powerful than that, as most embryonic Foremost only have 25 +s in several stats instead of 30 +s in all of them, to say nothing of your additional Emblem, magic system and so on. In terms of pure statline you would probably be as difficult to kill as a Foremost with ~57-60 +s in all their Attributes - which is to say impossible for either Hierarch or Delve residents to slay unless they have a perfect Emblem-level counter to Unsetting Sun. You could probably even take Kid Gloves off without dying, which would save you a lot of Insights. Even if you die, you're a servant of the Shogun so when his Unsetting Sun procs due to a major hit you'll be auto-resurrected, and be able to use your (subjective days) of resurrected-time to find a way to make that permanent. Far from impossible with 30 Int + Wis and access to the right magic systems! Evoker's Panoply alone might be able to manage it with enough development, depending on the cause of your death.
Oh no, i could've bought the more expensive sword after all!

I was pretty torn between Evoker's Panoply and Auspice Temporal. But the way we saw Procyon deploy the Shroud makes it clear that it's an effortful tactic that has to be deployed judiciously. Dropping a pile of esoteric damage types, or accessing those effects for the purposes of teraforming, seemed like a useful swiss-army-knife for a build that is mostly getting by on the versatility of having all 30s, rather than scaling up a single Bignumber.
 
Refine the Dross only burns the memories of your prior Foremost self, which the current you doesn't remember anyway! Its real cost to the current you is the Tokens.
Do you reclaim those if you keep them? I thought the conjunction was a remembering of humanity's past, rather than remembering your own specific past life.
 
Eternity in an Hour
Take the Plunge

Drawbacks: Heirarch 3, Far Delve IV, Artifice Bound, Leal I (Shogun), Wrack and Ruin, To War, Maker's Bane, Epochal Nemesis, Disfiguring Gambit [+20 Tokens, +10 Insights]

All Egotist Attainments (9 Tokens, 9 Insights)
*Strive: Wits
*Duality: Yin Path (Wits / Agility)
*Uttermost: Double Yin Path, Magic System: The Motive Force (Similar to the Speed Force, but operates off Wits rather than Agi, and channels findross rather than electricity. Time/Essence with limited Forces, Mind: Versatile, -3 to casting stat. Scales off Wits.)
All Arcanist Attainments (15 Tokens, 10 Insights)
*Glory Unto the Maker: Sacrifice Camaraderie, gain Exalted, Perfection;
Shogun to Honing the Form (3 Tokens, 1 Insight)
Emissary to Highborn (8 Tokens)

Notable Attributes: Wits (5 + 28 + 2 + 7 + 15 + 5 + 2 + 1) = 65 (68 Mentation Rune, 73 post-Honing the Mind), Agi (14 + 7 + 15 + 5 + 2 + 1) = 44, Effective Int (2 + 10 + 7 + 15 + 2 + 1) = 37 (40 Mentation Rune, 42-44 post-Honing), All Stats minimum 10 (7 + 2 + 1) save for Wis and App. Servitor with 32-39 +s in All Physical, Mental, Social Attributes.

Hierarch 3 is a major challenge and even a build with these stats isn't guaranteed to prevail, but I wanted to test the limits of the system.

*Our big stick is an Uttermost magic system with a casting stat of 65 (70 post-training) that allows us to effectively operate at Wits/Agi 65+ at all times, alongside goodies like time travel, speed steal, etc. This grants effectively unbounded subjective time, but boredom and practical limitations may constrain us to only an Indenture's worth (~900 octillion years) before we have to face the Hierarch
*Given this acceleration factor, a 90% growth penalty multiplicative with every source goes from crippling to merely tedious
*Since our system channels findross rather than lightning, we can use it to empower our Foremost Runes, granting a significant potency buff to the most versatile system available in this CYOA, and which we also cast at a very proficient level
*Our extremely high stat total means Diplomatic Immunity agreements can actually be made with the other Foremost here, and expected to be honored: we can certainly provide enough value for the Shogun to consider training us, the Surgeon to augment us, and so on
*And this will be necessary, since any being significantly below the level of an adolescent Foremost will suffer extreme mental wasting in our presence. The League and Crowned Halo elites are safe, but experts can't withstand my presence. Our superspeed means we need not spend a perceptible amount of time near them, while we work on mitigation.
*Our primary contingency is this: should we perish, the Shogun will auto-resurrect us via his Emblem if he deflects a significant blow. We can have a superpowered contingency Rune in place to launch such a blow upon him in the event of our death. This is harmless, as the Unsetting Sun will ensure it fails to damage him anyway.
*Our hope is that by going both tall (69 casting stat Magic System) and wide (44 casting stat Foremost Runes, bartered augments with the other Foremost, Titans, Praetorians etc, 900 octillion years of prep time with which to develop more Foremost Runes that perfectly synergize with the Motive Force, etc), we will have a good chance of overcoming Hierarch 3. Given the primary stat gulf they will need to spend 1-2 Emblems neutralizing my magic system alone, which means we are 'only' facing 1.5 Emblems and ~47 +s in All Stats with the rest of our capabilities.
 
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Might as well try a build for fun. Not sure how effective (or even valid) it will be but trying won't cost me much.

References Are The Deepest Lore

Choice: Take the Plunge +15T & 10I
Shogun: Harm Cognition -1T, Honing the Mind -2T
Arcanist: N/A
Surgeon: Away! -2T, Engineer (Psychology) -5T, Seize the Day -1I
Egotist: Strive (Manipulation) -2T, Unblinking Tempest -2T, Duality (Yang) -5T & 1I, Crowned Halo (Elite boost, Great Empire) -6I, Uttermost (Yang, Utter Binding) -5I
Emissary: Pathos -1T, Immunity -2T, Highborn -5T, Gift (Duality) -3I
Drawbacks: Epochal Nemesis +3T, Fate of the Foremost (Minor) +5T / Far Delve IV +5T & 2I, Leal (Emissary) +1I, Hierarch +1I, Artifice Bound (Nail-shaped Ring) +2I

Uttermost System: TYPEdom. Body, mind and soul are merged into a Celestial Body which is the true "you", chance to generate Avatars to interact under human guises with decreasing stats the more Avatars are simultaneously sustained. Development of powers tied to a philosophical ethos, usually centered around four Concepts (i.e. The Moon in Crimson's would be Blood, Usurpation, Binding and Duality); these improve the more territory falls under your sway, metaphysical claim over reality bending it to be better fit the Celestial Body's ethos. Effectiveness beyond the range of assimiliated territories decreases the further you stray from the main Body.

Stat gains are of secondary concern for this build: a Gifted Duality should be able to increase the minimum rank of all Attributes by 5 +s at least, which effectively translates to +15 +s (or more!) all over the board at the end of chargen - which in turn should mean quite the Astral Rank. Honing the Mind and Highborn function as effective jailbreakers for stat limits, the combination of Away!, Engineer (Psychology), Pathos and Immunity should provide exceptional boosts when it comes to the assimilation of foreign worlds and PR duties while Harm Cognition + Uttermost's mental defenses give me the chance to not die to memetic hazards/ambushes.

Epochal Nemesis and Far Delve are basically steals for this build as TYPEdom can claim territories to improve itself, turning into a virtuous cycle of sorts - especially if we consider the civilizations backing me during the inevitable clashes. The Emissary doesn't seem too bad despite her choice of friends - and besides, I might even get to nom some interesting polities with her aid - and the Hierarch shouldn't be too much of an issue at this level. Really, the biggest issues are the inevitable Cursebearer being a pain, the workarounds so that my Artifice isn't stolen and not dying in the Epic Level Dungeons.
 
Archsmith
Take the Plunge
Drawbacks: Hierarch, Artifice Bound, Far Delve IV, To War (Doubly Hostile), Wrack and Ruin [+13 Tokens, +7 Insights]

"But they were all of them, deceived, for... The [Dark Lord], forged in secret a master Ring...

And into this Ring he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life.

One Ring to rule them all."


Shogun: First Four Attainments (3 Tokens, 4 Insights)
*Blade: Fearless, +20 Agi +5 Wits
All Surgeon Attainments (7 Tokens, 9 Insights)
*Engineer: Maker (Rings of Power)
*Brains and Brawn: Dexterity (The Ruling Ring)
*Emblem of Wisdom
Egotist: First Three Attainments (9 Tokens, 1 Insight)
*Strive: +5 Agi
*Duality: Yin Path, +14 Agi +7 Wits
Emissary: First Four Attainments (8 Tokens, 3 Insights)
*Gift: Engineer -> Maker

Notable Attributes:
Agility (5 Honing + 20 Blade + 7 Maker + 5 Brains + 5 Strive + 14 Yin + 2 Highborn + 2 Surgeon's Boon + 1 Away) = 61
Dexterity (61 Agility + 10 Brains & Brawn + 10 Emblem of Courage + 10 Emblem of Wisdom) = 91
Wits (5 Honing + 5 Blade + 7 Maker + 5 Brains + 7 Yin + 5 All Stats) = 34

The plan is simple, my friends:
1. Forge the Ruling Ring, which scales off our 91 Dexterity
2. ???
3. Profit

We can only hope that our Rank and swiftness will keep us alive long enough to actually instantiate the Ruling Ring before we get blitzed by one of the other Foremost. Even if they won't kill us, the Emissary could bind us with a treaty or the Surgeon could carve away our mad ambition...

There are much safer versions of this build (drop Gift for Unsetting Sun, or swap to Emblem of Power and just beat up the other Foremost, or just take Leal and ally with one of the Factions instead of antagonizing both in exchange for +1 All Stats...), but they're not nearly as funny.

Stat gains are of secondary concern for this build: a Gifted Duality should be able to increase the minimum rank of all Attributes by 5 +s at least, which effectively translates to +15 +s (or more!) all over the board at the end of chargen - which in turn should mean quite the Astral Rank. Honing the Mind and Highborn function as effective jailbreakers for stat limits, the combination of Away!, Engineer (Psychology), Pathos and Immunity should provide exceptional boosts when it comes to the assimilation of foreign worlds and PR duties while Harm Cognition + Uttermost's mental defenses give me the chance to not die to memetic hazards/ambushes.

You have 30 +s in All Attributes due to Utter Binding already, unless you meant 15 additional +s on top of those? I haven't thought about how to balance Gift on Duality (Yang), but my gut says it could probably get you to ~35-36 +s in All Attributes if combined with Utter Binding. Then if you take Dien's challenges for another +2 All Attributes and Away yourself for another +1, you could very nearly be Praetorian-level at chargen. Not bad!
 
[Citation Needed 2]

[><] Shogun: Harm Cognition, Honing the Mind, Honing the Form, The Blade. -3 Tokens, -3 Insights.
-[><] Fearless (+20 CON, +5 Something).
[><] Surgeon: Away, Engineer(Physical Tempering), Brains&Brawn (Strength). -7 Tokens, -4 Insights
[><] Egotist: Strive, Unblinking Tempest, Duality. -9 Tokens, -1 Insight.
-[><] +5 CON. Yin: +14 CON, +7 something.
[><] Arrogant Gambit (+3 Tokens)
[><] Foresworn (Adventurers selected) Far Delve IV (+5 Tokens, +2 Insight) (This yield inferred from Rihaku's 'Eternity In An Hour' build, which only has +17 Drawback Tokens if the Delves don't stack.)
The base build has 1(+3, Delve) tokens left over at the 63 CON mark. Since foresworn swaps to Far Delve and it dropped Fortress, it's also got 3 Insights left...
🅇 To War (+5 Tokens) (Opposing both factions, gaining +2 All)
-🅇 Kid Gloves Off (+2 Insights)
So we've gottt 9 Tokens and 5 Insights here.
🅇 Surgeon: Bravado (-5 Insights)
-🅇 Emblem Of Power.
🅇 Emissary: Pathos, Diplomatic Immunity, Highborn (-8 Tokens)
The built can stop here- albeit it has a Token left, so it could drop to Disfiguring Gambit. If so, the Build has +77 CON- and crucially, the Emblem Of Power, meaning it can turn this into brief spurts of 78 All Attributes, at least 110 times times before it runs out of non-CON stats to burn. Kid Gloves are Off, but it's got as much Con as the Arcanist has intelligence- it's not going to die to people with more reasonable stat spreads. It might even be able to take over the world by exercising the Emblem a few times, though I'm not confident in that.
Thus, 77 CON is sanely acquirable.
But it can go further.
🅇 Hierarch (+3 Insights)
🅇 Emissary: The Gift (-3 Insights)
-🅇 Harm Cognition -> Tribulative Sovereignty
*+7 CON.
*Your sense of Harm per the original option still exists, but is clearer, more precise, and more reliable both initially and at any given capstone, increasing in scope and potency to match your resilience regardless of your mental faculties. With practice, you can even sense harm that befalls any who serve your interests, or even sense harm you can inflict on others.
*You possess a secondary sense of harm, easily comparable to the first and with clear contrast where they differ, which measures the objective scope of the danger without accounting for your resilience. It will alert you to bullets even if you are bulletproof; to shattering realities though you are inured to the space between worlds. With practice, it accounts for improbable or ridiculous choices, sensing dangers that would befall you if you deliberately walked into obvious traps or struck yourself without cause.
*You can control any harm you can sense. In doing so, you unavoidably suffer the harm in question or an equivalent, but may then relocate it, perhaps to another; this is reasonably efficient, but not perfectly, and degrades over time if unused. Targeting is reasonably permissive within the bounds of your Harm Senses. With training, you can control or modify the type of harm suffered and inflicted; although it is difficult, in due time this can attain nearly any effect, for one man's gain is his enemies harm...
*If willing to suffer grievous injury, a master of this Sorcery could even defray the cost of the Emblem of Power to a partial degree.


This makes for a final total of +84 CON. I am acting on the assumption here that the 7-10 Magics the Hierarch can access suffer similar limitations to the Foremost runes, meaning the Hierarchs' stats cannot reasonably exceed the high 50's/low 60's without the help of an emblem, the low/mid 70s with, meaning they're hopelessly outclassed by an immediate usage of the Emblem of Power; even if they were to match the build's 84 CON in some stat(Which seems rather implausible, since even the Arcanist's INT can't!), the Build would, for the duration of their combat, be a full-rounded build with 85 in every stat! At this level of Agility and wits and so on, we've far exceeded infinite speed, so the 'five minutes' duration limit may as well not exist. Nor can it exploit the build's default low-stat state; it cedes the initiative for several years, more than enough time to activate the emblem and search this ontology and all neighboring ontologies for the Hierarch! And potentially enough time as well to perform the eons of focused training needed to raise its base non-CON attributes into the 50s, if it's personal time rather than sidereal. And then to beat up both sides of the Foremost conflict, probably.

Unfortunately, the build stops here; the only remaining Attainments which can grant CON are the Perfection Emblem and Uttermost. The former is locked behind the Entire Arcanist Line, and the latter, being locked behind the Halo, requires 8 Insights. 8 Insights is possible while keeping The Gift, but only by dropping Bravado- and dropping Bravado means the build returns to having ridiculous CON and little else of worth, for only 4 more net CON! Although an argument exists that it's still Sanely acquirable (the top-tier Halo members would possess highest-attributes of 83, plausibly allowing them to defeat the Hierarch, and the created magic system could directly leverage your 88 CON as its scaling attribute), it's shakier.

Notable Attributes:
Agility (5 Honing + 20 Blade + 7 Maker + 5 Brains + 5 Strive + 14 Yin + 2 Highborn + 2 Surgeon's Boon + 1 Away) = 61
Dexterity (61 Agility + 10 Brains & Brawn + 10 Emblem of Courage + 10 Emblem of Wisdom) = 91
Wits (5 Honing + 5 Blade + 7 Maker + 5 Brains + 7 Yin + 5 All Stats) = 34
Wait, couldn't you get to 98 by having Maker boost both AGI and DEX?
 
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This makes for a final total of +84 CON. I am acting on the assumption here that the 7-10 Magics the Hierarch can access suffer similar limitations to the Foremost runes, meaning the Hierarchs' stats cannot reasonably exceed the high 50's/low 60's without the help of an emblem

The Hierarch's stats have little chance of defeating an Emblem of Power with attributes in the 80s, but you underestimate the potential impact of Emblems, especially ones tailor-made to counter you. For example:

1) An Emblem that lets it run away with efficacy comparable to Unsetting Sun. As a being with All Attributes in the 40s, this would allow it to effectively flee from entities stronger than the Arcanist, just as the Shogun cannot be materially threatened by anything short of a Mature Foremost. That is to say, Emblems can do a whole lot more than just provide stats.
2) Two Emblems that make it scale really, really hard in the 10 years it has
3) Its custom Arcanist Rune also makes it scale

Alternatively:

1) 2-3 Emblems that combine to counter your ability to use the Emblem of Power
2) It beats you with Praetorian stats (social combat, Luck etc)

We don't know what its exact configuration will be, save that its magic systems are designed to screw you over as totally as possible, so while you have good chances of beating Hierach 3, it's far from guaranteed.

Wait, couldn't you get to 98 by having Maker boost both AGI and DEX?

No, Dex is a sub-stat of AGI.
 
Hierarch doesn't actually say that, though. It says:
For +1 Insight, (...) two of the potential magic systems given in the example. (...) 30-35 +s in all Mental Attributes, similarly top-range sums in their Physical and Social Attributes,(...) in additional to total mastery of Life and generalized reality manipulation on par with a Foremost Emblem.

For +2 Insights, the Hierarch is a true exemplar possessing maximal Attributes (...) alongside all three potential magic systems; it has divined the hour of your arrival and prepared for a full decade in advance. Its magic systems are strong if imperfect counters to your own abilities.

For +3 Insights, the Hierarch is a rogue Praetorian(...)It possess Praetorian Attributes and all three potential magic systems, all of which are specifically designed to counter you. (...) equivalent in value (...)(+7 All Attributes). It will lie in wait, preparing for several years more, before it strikes - but when it does, be assured its stroke will fall the moment of your maximum vulnerability; and if its talents lend themselves to proxy warfare, you may search for eons without ever cornering it yourself.
Where the three magic systems are:
*Nigh-total dominion of a single concept on the level of Time, Life, Order, etc.
*Lesser but numerous (7-10) magics on par with the Third and Fourth Attainments of the Foremost, already accounted for in the Attribute totals above.
*Some other effect comparable to a single Foremost Emblem, through always with substantial versatility in both offense and defense
So per the original option's description, it can't have three emblems; it can have control of one Concept, on the level of an emblem; 7-10 magics, with total power comparable to an Emblem; and one other effect comparable to an emblem, with substantial versatility in both offense and defence.
So build one is possible through [Run Away Emblem] + Emblem of Concept: Progression(?) + 7-10 Magics It Can Train + Perfection Rune Analogue, to whatever degree Emblem Of Concept: Progression has power and to the elevation limit of the magics, but that's notably inferior to simply 3 Emblems, since the Magic Systems can't just stack onto eachother to give linearly more stats like Emblems- their effective Stats granted would be capped based on the potency of the Magic systems themselves or the user's scalar stat. More generally I wouldn't expect the 7-10 magic systems to actually improve its training at all, since their power is in the end inferior to the Emblem of Concept: Progression. Still, that build may eventually defeat them, assuming the Emblem Of Power's +84 Statline cannot accelerate training to match their non-power stats within the several-year preparation period.

(Build two is impossible because the option explicitly states the Hierarch will lie in wait for several more years, meaning it will not actively prevent the first activation of the Emblem of Power even if it can do so somehow. Once that Emblem is active, their incredibly escalated Rank and Luck (and INT/WIS) far exceed whatever the Hierarch is doing and ensure they won't bumble into any situation which would allow the Hierarch to nullify their stats.)
 
Build two is impossible because the option explicitly states the Hierarch will lie in wait for several more years, meaning it will not actively prevent the first activation of the Emblem of Power even if it can do so somehow.

He's not trying to prevent you from using it immediately, he uses it when you attack or are attacked by him, or are otherwise within interaction range. Of course he's going to defend himself bypassing the prep time if you take proactive measures to specifically hunt him.

With two Emblem-level effects working in concert plus the support of many 3rd-4th Attainment level effects, it's certainly not beyond the bounds of imagination to imagine a combined power that prevents you from using the Emblem of Power, or counters it if active. There are even (rare) single Emblems that might somewhat do that, like an Emblem version of the Fragarach Noble Phantasm.

I'm sure you don't expect that the build could actually damage the Shogun, for example, even though with the Emblem of Power active it has nearly +22 All Stats on him. And that's just the effect of a single Unsetting Sun.

I think you're also underestimating the 7-10 lesser magics; 4th Attainment effects are far from useless and certainly have the potential to be stat agnostic to some degree (Unblinking Tempest is a 2nd Attainment!).

All that said, I still think an Emblem of Power spamming build has good chances against Hierarch III. It's just far from guaranteed, especially if the Hierarch allies with the Arcanist or something (you did take Kid Gloves Off).
 
@Rihaku

A pair of questions that actually matter now that Take The Plunge has listed drawbacks:

1. If you have both the Faultless Blade and Emblem of Mastery, does your ten years of practice on each Attainment apply separately in full to each potential cut that needs to be practiced separately, or is it ten years total?

2. If you put Gift on Imago, does that enhance the Imago bonus on each of the Arcanists other Attainments?

Actually 3: What does the Savant Emblem making Conjunction your signature look like?
 
@Rihaku, why are Refine the Dross and Artifice Bound Plunge-only Drawbacks? Having literally any way to pass 3 Insights without banning Emblems would make Remain builds a lot more interesting.
[ ] Refine the Dross [-5 Tokens, +1 Insight] - Sacrifice some portion of the memories that only hold you back to grasp for insights of true worth; exchange the facile sentimentality of experience for the realized purpose of ability. May be taken a total of three times. Each step reduces your memories of your prior Foremost life.

[ ] Artifice Bound [+2 Insights] - You number among those unfortunate Foremost whose essence and identity are bound to a material thing. All your powers emanate from, and are tied to, this object. Should this be removed from your ownership, you will temporarily bleed -All Attributes each day it is not recovered. If it's destroyed, you lose all Attainments gained herein. May choose the object in question within reason, so long as you own it, or create an otherwise-mundane vestment, accessory, or implement to invest your essence in. Regardless the object will blaze with your identity, making known to potential thieves the bounty that awaits them.

This object is as difficult to harm as you are, and has defenses against theft or separation commensurate with your total power level - like a loyal symbiote or the One Ring of Sauron, it knows only one master and will proactively work to return to him. Nonetheless, would-be usurpers in possession of it may wield your active abilities, thence depriving you of them, and receive a bonus to their Attributes commensurate with your overall power level.
 
I just had a thought for Freedom. It seems like a good tactic.
*We know that, given all his available powers, mastering the Realm of Evening should take Hunger less than a million years. This should be enough for Stage 5 mitigation to all his remaining Curses, including Tyrant.
*Between Stage 5 Tyrant Mitigation and Permissive Vacations, it should be possible to go play patron to someone with Retinue, even if most of what we can do is leave an Echo with them.
*There's no rule that says an Echo can't surpass the original.
 
The odds of achieving high cursebearer status is already 100 trillion to 1 at least I don't want to even emegine what the odds are for choosing family over power.

Mind you forebearer becoming so strong by himself is basically what makes him unique in ALL of existence so doing that again even as his reincarnation... hmm well I guess dreams are dreams for a reason.
 
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The odds of achieving high cursebearer status is already 100 trillion to 1 at least I don't want to even emegine what the odds are for choosing family over power.
99|1 on the Vengeance route, actually, thanks to @Orm Embar and @Addio figuring out that - and, apparently, how - we should revoke the Doom of Tyranny. (Speaking of which, what was the proposed method? It was done on Discord, which I'm not on.)
But to flinch from the thought is to fail at planning. The odds of one path are known, and very bad. The odds of the other path are unknown. Can we find a plan with better than 1% odds of success, given the resources of Freedom? It seems probable that Freedom gives Hunger infinite training time, and he now has the Imperial Praxis rather than the Royal. The main opponent on that route is the Affliction of the Decimator - which we're already at Stage 3 mitigation of, and mastering the Realm of Evening should let him hit Stage 5 in less than a million years. If at Stage 5 he can just feed it one Praxis pick a month and consistently generate more than that, he can reach his former heights, and it doesn't matter if it's a literally arbitrary amount slower because he has literally infinite training time.
Heck, he could plausibly get that far during this Geas task, if access to the Realm of Day is part of Freedom.
The real question, if you value Vengeance above all else, is: do you think Free Hunger has access to any plan with at least a 1% chance of victory? Because that's the number to beat.
 
Balance to the Force
My take on a "light-side" Forebear scaled to the Foremost level. Let's call him the Originator.

Take the Plunge
Drawbacks: Hierarch I, Artifice Bound (Origin Blade), Far Delve IV, To War (Doubly Hostile) - Kid Gloves Off, Wrack and Ruin [+13 Tokens, +9 Insights]

Shogun: First Four Attainments (3T, 6I)
*Blade: Foremost, Faultless, Fearless (+10 Wis, Will, Int, Wits, Agi)
Surgeon: All Attainments (7T, 9I)
*Away: Carve Out Used, +All Attributes
*Engineer: Smithing
*Brains & Brawn: Dexterity (Swordsmithing)
*Emblem of Wisdom
Egotist: First Three Attainments (9T, 1I)
*Strive: Wisdom
*Duality: Yin Path (Wisdom/Agility)
Emissary: First Four Attainments (8T, 3I)
*Gift: Seize the Day -> Bear the Mantle

Bear the Mantle
+7 Wis, Will, Agi, Wits
*Alters the user's Rank into an Emanation: an intense comprehensive mastery over all reality's facets whose influence falls off exponentially with distance.
*The strength of the user's Emanation scales with their Wisdom primarily, and secondly with their Willpower. Emanation relies not on brute infamy, but a true and intuitive understanding of self, nature and legend to enact direct alterations upon reality.
*The user may no longer deploy a conventional Shroud; this accession represents a semi-permanent hybrid of both. By marrying symbolic and physical space, the user emblazons his selfhood and legend directly onto the parchment of reality, in exchange for wholly accepting the locality and corporeality of material expression.
*At Wisdom 68:

~Within five feet of his corpus, the user is an omnicapable god-king with full command over all conceivable phenomena. Pocket dimensions, perfect awareness, conceptual manifestation, power negation, resurrection, spiritual restructuring, temporal acceleration to nigh-arbitrary heights, etc.
~Within twenty feet, he is a force to be reckoned with and immensely powerful for a young Foremost.
~Within a hundred, he has about as much influence as conventional Rank would grant to his counterfactual self. Out to a mile, this power hardly does anything at all.
~Both the breadth and elevation of the power are affected by this dissipation: within melee range his influence exerts the full weight of 68 Wisdom +s, but at a hundred feet it might only bear the elevation of 25.

Notable Attributes:
Wisdom 19 Egotist + 25 Surgeon + 2 Pathos +7 Gift + 10 Shogun + 5 All Attributes (Highborn + 3x Dien Boons) = 68 (73 post-Honing)
Agility / Dexterity 15+35+7+7+5 = 39 / 69
Wits 15+5+7+5 = 32 (37 post-Honing)
Willpower 10+5+7+5 = 27

This build has two components: Emanation is the first, the Originator's answer to the Forebear's crushing Rank. And the Origin Blade is his answer to the Forebear's mightiest implement: source and vessel of his powers and selfhood, a faultless cutting instrument of condensed findross that is constantly being re-shaped, refined, intensified and improved by his epic skills as a Smith. A Foremost Faultless blade continuously augmented by near 70 Dexterity worth of Engineering grants the Originator combat power that is truly ridiculous, before which even the unparalleled force of his Emanation seems to pale. The combined efforts of both allow his melee strikes to fall with terrible purpose - especially since the 'corpus' from which his power Emanates is the indestructible Blade itself. Were his blade not able to split arbitrary distances, he would be somewhat vulnerable to enemies specializing in the manipulation of Space (insofar as they could render him irrelevant; he can of course contest spatial manipulation in the vicinity of his body).

He perfects the cutting power of his sword alongside his understanding of the world, the two acting in harmony such that he remains unswayed by neither the pitiless expedience of the Dominion nor reckless bravado of the League. This is no Forebear's slab of screaming steel, but light and sharpness themselves made flesh; less a sword and more the Sword Form incarnate.

I know, he's so much lamer than the Forebear.

@Rihaku

A pair of questions that actually matter now that Take The Plunge has listed drawbacks:

1. If you have both the Faultless Blade and Emblem of Mastery, does your ten years of practice on each Attainment apply separately in full to each potential cut that needs to be practiced separately, or is it ten years total?

2. If you put Gift on Imago, does that enhance the Imago bonus on each of the Arcanists other Attainments?

It's 10 years per Attainment, so the latter. But this takes your Wits/Agi (and Con if your Wits/Agi is high enough to require it) into account, as well as your Int, Wisdom, etc. If you have 30 All Stats from some source, that ten years of training is going to be more like ten trillion compared to the productivity of a baseline human.

It has great synergy with the Emblem of Wisdom, ironically!

It can, yes. The total stat benefit is not likely to exceed +7 to any given stat even when distributed as additional bonuses, but it can enhance the Imago bonuses of the other Attainments in other ways, or add Imago-like bonuses to non-Arcanist Attainments, etc. Just make sure it stays within the actual power level of a 4th Attainment overall.
 
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It can, yes. The total stat benefit is not likely to exceed +7 to any given stat even when distributed as additional bonuses, but it can enhance the Imago bonuses of the other Attainments in other ways, or add Imago-like bonuses to non-Arcanist Attainments, etc. Just make sure it stays within the actual power level of a 4th Attainment overall.
The simple option seemed to me to be doubling the Imago bonuses, but then again, even just one extra of the Arcanists Emblems might be more than that limit allows. Does the fact it's mostly paid for by the cost of the other Attainments override that and make such an upgrade acceptable, or is that simply too much.

On a similar Emissary + Arcanist note, would taking Greater Good cancel out the non-mechanical implications of sacrificing Restraint towards the world, even if not of your conscious volition? Or if you manage to stack Mastery, Yang Path, and Highborn, do you start with your stats boosted by ten years of training after a baseline of 10+?
 
Sphere of Speech

Choice: Take the Plunge +15T & 10I
Shogun: Harm Cognition -1T
Arcanist: Imago -2T
Surgeon: N/A
Egotist: Strive (Manipulation) -2T, Unblinking Tempest -2T, Duality (Yin: Manipulation, Wits) -5T & 1I, Crowned Halo -3I, Uttermost (Yin, Sophistry) -5I
Emissary: Pathos -1T, Immunity -2T, Highborn -5T, Gift (Unblinking Tempest) -3I, Greater Good -5I
Drawbacks: Epochal Nemesis +3T / Refine the Dross -5T & +1I, Steward's Bane +2T, Far Delve IV +5T & 2I, Leal (Emissary) +1I, Hierarch +1I, Artifice Bound (Pendant) +2I

Gifted, the Unblinking Tempest becomes a hurricane that diminishes the relevance of all Attributes that exceed the user's, drastically increasing the difficulty of contesting me outside my sphere of influence. It's still less effective on power-type Attributes, but offers +7 Man, App, and Wits to compensate. This brings the build to a respectable +46 Manipulation, fueling a magic harnessed through the Sphere of Speech's Uttermost hubris: the black art of Sophistry.

Mechanically, Sophistry casts at a -3 penalty and has the domains of Mind, Essence, and Union. Memes being the DNA of the soul, interlocutors are nothing more than the set of ideas they champion; to engage with a Sophist at all opens yourself to alteration by them. Thankfully, as the Sphere of Speech my intentions are compassionate: eschewing the war raging in the Realm above, I aim to bring peace and security to what lies Beneath.

Magi will be warned against ontological vandalism by a memetic contagion and escorted to their new homes by pacified giants. Banished Ones rescued from the torus' gravitation can be spoken into willing hosts who'll use their conceptual dominion for good, empowering the Sphere's Elites and Experts. My phylactery can even be loaned to the former in sufficiently exigent circumstances. Once a peace is brokered in the Titanic cold war, the Everdeep Lens can produce customized phantasms to expand their ranks.

The Praetorians remain deadly, but a Unified Sphere of Speech protected by Unblinking should be able to fulfill the geas' obligations. Fusing with Elites is also my contingency against an early Hierarch ambush, shoring up my other Attributes. In the worst case scenario, I can contest a hostile merger directly through Sophistry. Epochal Nemesis is also annoying, but it doesn't factor in the Halo or any of my other allies. They can concede and cooperate, or face the consequences.

To War would've yielded +All Attributes and another Insight to make the Sphere's Elites Highborn. But this is a Beneath-oriented build aimed at ordering the chaos stemming from the Arcanist's neglect, stitching these disparate factions together into a patchwork polity. Who knows... if I do a good enough job, maybe the Emissary will notice me?
Orm Embar threw 2 12-faced dice. Reason: A final bit of Foolishness Total: 6
1 1 5 5
Orm Embar threw 1 2-faced dice. Reason: Orcs or Elves Total: 2
2 2
 
The simple option seemed to me to be doubling the Imago bonuses, but then again, even just one extra of the Arcanists Emblems might be more than that limit allows. Does the fact it's mostly paid for by the cost of the other Attainments override that and make such an upgrade acceptable, or is that simply too much.

No, that's far too much +Int to be permissible. Doubling High Arcana's Imago bonus alone would be impermissible for obvious reasons!

The primary benefit of Gift is meant to be evocative and flavorful; the Attributes are a sideshow. You could get +7 Int, Wits, App and distribute the benefits of a much weaker Mastery across the other four Attainments, for example. But remember this is a replacement rather than additional effect, and the cap applies regardless. If going for stats, you'd be better off replacing Lower Arcana.

Greater Good boosts your efforts to be charitable, but how often you do this with crippled Wisdom is unpredictable. Similarly unpredictable are whether your actions will cause more harm than good overall, and the error bands are wide. For most, the latter would completely overwhelm the former given the Emblem's presence, but an Arcanist who falls into the worst of her follies might wreak more lasting and esoteric harm in ways difficult to counterbalance - not that the Emblem would seek to specifically do that, in favor of simply maximizing the greater good.

To War would've yielded +All Attributes and another Insight to make the Sphere's Elites Highborn. But this is a Beneath-oriented build aimed at ordering the chaos stemming from the Arcanist's neglect, stitching these disparate factions together into a patchwork polity. Who knows... if I do a good enough job, maybe the Emissary will notice me?

You're already her valued friend, given you're Leal to the Emissary! What do you want, headpats?

Gift + Unblinking Tempest can probably do what you want, but the magnitude of its gap-closing would be a significant balancing factor. If you want it to be fully symmetrical across all Attributes then it might only cut the +s difference in half. If it works on a case by case basis (stronger if they few superior Attributes, weaker if they have many), it might be able to do something like:

3 Attributes - first fully negated, next two have the + difference cut by 90%
5 Attributes - first still negated, other four... 80%
7 Attributes - '' other six... 60%
And so on... with the first still always being the most relevant Attribute to the contest

I remember it being said that Hunger would never in an infinite amount of time of Praxis learning/studying become strong enough to beat the Hidden Ones... has that changed with having the Imperial Praxis?

It's probabilistic and theoretically depends on tactics, but not really. Reaching HCB isn't likely either way. Not because Hunger isn't awesome, but because HCB is such an obscenely high bar that even vastly more talented individuals with innumerably greater advantages almost always get nowhere close. Not in the same ballpark, not in the same multiverse, not in the same ontological continuum escalated by infinite conceptual gulfs of distance-analogue, etc...
 
I remember it being said that Hunger would never in an infinite amount of time of Praxis learning/studying become strong enough to beat the Hidden Ones... has that changed with having the Imperial Praxis?
I actually remember something like "maybe Intensified Sword could do it, but not without infinite training time".
It's probabilistic and theoretically depends on tactics, but not really. Reaching HCB isn't likely either way.
Can we get a comparative estimate? My guess is that Progression plus infinite training time isn't always enough, but it does naively sound like it should be, and some access to Retinue should be achievable with Freedom.
 
'Foremost'
Take the Plunge

Drawbacks: Hierarch II, Fool's Gambit (Curse of Hubris), To War (Doubly Hostile), Far Delve IV, Artifice Bound, Refine the Dross II, Maker's Bane, Epochal Nemesis, Wrack and Ruin [+13 Tokens, +10 Insights]

Egotist: All Attainments (9 Tokens, 9 Insights)
*Strive: +5 Agility
*Duality: Taiji Path, +14 Agility / +7 Wits
*Uttermost: Utter Binding (Curse of Hubris), Triple Yang Path
-Magic System: Roadrunner (Forces, Fate, -2 to casting stat, Scales with DEX): A passive magic system that smoothes over the dangers and inconveniences of super-speed, allowing one to harness it for incredible physical feats, while also improving one's outcomes against all dangers and in all endeavors, especially dangers of which one is uncaring or oblivious. Meep meep.

Shogun: Four Attainments (3 Tokens, 4 Insights)
*Blade: +20 Agi / +5 Wits

Surgeon: Four Attainments (7 Tokens, 4 Insights)
*Engineer: Robotics
*Brains & Brawn: Dexterity (Armaments)

Emissary: Four Attainments (8 Tokens, 3 Insights)
*Gift: Away -> Defeat Equals Friendship

3x Surgeon Boons

Notable Attributes: 71 Dexterity, 61 Agility, 41 Wits, 33 All Other Attributes (spiking to 40 as-needed via Defeat Equals Friendship). Rank befitting a being with such Attributes.

Yes, in a fit of stupefying yet entirely predictable hubris this build will literally adopt the Foremost Title of... "The Foremost." The scary thing is how close it actually gets.

My goal here was to reach a functional Attribute total that rivals that of the Shogun, Surgeon and Egotist. We're not far off, and I'd be very happy with the result if we didn't roll the Curse of Hubris. C'est la vie. Was it worth the extra 14 Dexterity? Almost certainly not, but it was a gamble we took and lost. At least we are almost as good as we think we are - 33 All Attributes can paper over a lot of reasoning flaws, at least until I start trying to solo the Arcanist. At this power level Hierarch II is fairly trivial - it's very unlikely their sole counter-Embem can overcome the immense stat gap. Hierarch III is still far too risky, however. My main short-term task is building enough Dex 71-scaled super androids to do what I cannot - accomplish tasks with a modicum of tact and sanity.

Glory to Mankind.

At least I'll be able to use Curseweft for my primary Armament: and a Crowning Curse at that! Wrack and Ruin kind of turns Epochal Nemesis into free Tokens, if Crowned Halo and Defeat Equals Friendship didn't already do so. Unfortunately it hits my own civ too, so I'll have to physically distance myself from them so as to preserve their lives - inevitable, for a being of my perfected grandeur! Even to look upon me must be more than those humble worthies can bear. Hopefully my social-specced Specialist Elites will be able to convince me to spend effort mitigating both Wracking and Hubris, but that would require them to pin me down for a conversation first.

It's hard to predict what my post-Curse self will do, since he believes he's a hundred times stronger than the un-diminished Dien Bravo and almost has the chops to back it up, plus grows compoundingly stronger with each victory as enemies are made allies and his outrageous overconfidence attracts infamy, and thus greater Rank... suffice to say, just about everyone here is about to live in interesting times.
 
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Does the Arrogant Gambit compound with Hubris, or does it overlap? Actually, is the Shogun afflicted with the Curses of Hubris and/or Tyranny?
 
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