A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Also Freedom Hunger can literally still pursue a better world. It does go slower, true, but there's is also less blood and violence along the way as a result of the endless ever-escalating war against the Apocryphal.
Is it not better to earn the Victorious World while acting in a manner befitting that world, then to take the easier path of accepting suffering of oneself and countless others as a sacrifice to achieve that world slightly faster? When said slightly faster is not even guaranteed to succeed, and, in fact, will almost certainly fail along the way, or worse become an obstacle to the Victorious World itself?
When making moral decisions, you have to plan for the outcome that is likely to occur, not the outcome you want. And the outcome that is likely to occur with Vengeance is "Hunger hurts himself, hurts a ludicrously large number of people, and then either accomplishes nothing or becomes an enemy that the Accursed has to fight."
To claim that anything other then "very bad things" happens when choosing Vengeance is blatantly false. We are literally being handed a good ending vs bad ending choice, and people want to throw the good ending away because of their gambling addiction.
Is it not better to earn the Victorious World while acting in a manner befitting that world, then to take the easier path of accepting suffering of oneself and countless others as a sacrifice to achieve that world slightly faster? When said slightly faster is not even guaranteed to succeed, and, in fact, will almost certainly fail along the way, or worse become an obstacle to the Victorious World itself?
When making moral decisions, you have to plan for the outcome that is likely to occur, not the outcome you want. And the outcome that is likely to occur with Vengeance is "Hunger hurts himself, hurts a ludicrously large number of people, and then either accomplishes nothing or becomes an enemy that the Accursed has to fight."
To claim that anything other then "very bad things" happens when choosing Vengeance is blatantly false. We are literally being handed a good ending vs bad ending choice, and people want to throw the good ending away because of their gambling addiction.
Rihaku
The Internet
Eh, he's good enough. The Human Sphere is pretty nice, as was The Winter Dynasty.
It is important to note that, while the Forebear Returned will almost certainly die, he probably isn't likely to die any time soon, since having a ~0.1% chance of making it to High Cursebearer translates to a >99.9999999% chance of overcoming individual Apocryphal events or Geas Tasks. Such is the mettle of the Forebear of Dynasties. Should also be said that much of Vengeance's time will be consumed with... well, vengeance and the ceaseless climb to power that necessitates, whereas Hunger under Freedom's free to actually enjoy life and pursue his interests such as fishing or raising his family. Still, both paths see The Forebear/Hunger persist for trillions of years.
It is important to note that, while the Forebear Returned will almost certainly die, he probably isn't likely to die any time soon, since having a ~0.1% chance of making it to High Cursebearer translates to a >99.9999999% chance of overcoming individual Apocryphal events or Geas Tasks. Such is the mettle of the Forebear of Dynasties. Should also be said that much of Vengeance's time will be consumed with... well, vengeance and the ceaseless climb to power that necessitates, whereas Hunger under Freedom's free to actually enjoy life and pursue his interests such as fishing or raising his family. Still, both paths see The Forebear/Hunger persist for trillions of years.
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
That world is not earned, if you did nothing but leave it to your betters. I'm sure that most of the entities at HC level didn't have a guaranteed or even good chance of success, and neither did Uly when he was a mere mortal among the exalted. They still had the potential to matter, like Hunger, and chose to do that.
As long as we're doing some net good for the Accursed (which we are as far as we know, he does get ++ Favor), I think it's better to do what we can.
Also, if we have a 99.9% chance of not becoming a HC entity, then in that 99.9% chance we cannot be fighting the Accursed or doing anything meaningful to inconvenience him. Instead, Hunger will have provided his mitigation for Apoc (where other cursebearers are more likely to die) and done good by the worlds he has conquered, like the Human Sphere.
In the event of that 0.1% chance that Hunger does become an HC, I trust in Haeliel's counsel and his own moral core. But the most likely event is that Hunger spends ~his lifetime doing good by mitigating Apoc for the Accursed and also improving lives on his conquered worlds.
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Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Man, the Hidden Ones seem kind of hilariously short-sighted with the context that we have at the moment.
Imagine spotting the 4Bear reincarnated on Earth, completely harmless, and then forcibly bringing him back to his sword. While also traumatizing him and irreversibly turning him against you, and in an ontological state big A is known to recruit from. That's a set of choices worthy of this quest - nay, worthy of Dying Gang itself!
Imagine spotting the 4Bear reincarnated on Earth, completely harmless, and then forcibly bringing him back to his sword. While also traumatizing him and irreversibly turning him against you, and in an ontological state big A is known to recruit from. That's a set of choices worthy of this quest - nay, worthy of Dying Gang itself!
Rihaku
The Internet
Or perhaps they'd prefer Vengeance to be taken, hm? For precisely the reason the Accursed says...
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Hmm, I more mean from the beginning of their actions than this specific vote. Certainly they might -- but I'd be surprised if they predicted the Accursed offering Hunger a bargain (and then everything that followed).
Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
- Location
- Poland
Ormulum: The Rhadamant Sons
Previously, on The Rhadamant Sons...
---
The Call to Adventure II
"I'm after that uropygium."
"That Luciferian poontang."
"The Devil's a peng ting and I'm gonna hit it."
"I'm-"
Skyneath raised a hand before Blaze could speak again, coughing. "Yes, I rather get the idea."
Previously, on The Rhadamant Sons...
---
The Call to Adventure II
"I'm after that uropygium."
"That Luciferian poontang."
"The Devil's a peng ting and I'm gonna hit it."
"I'm-"
Skyneath raised a hand before Blaze could speak again, coughing. "Yes, I rather get the idea."
- The Call to Adventure II
- Location
- Pindorama
Man, the human mind is crazy; when we had (much much much much) less of a vigintillionth of a percent of becoming a High Cursebearer people didn't care even a single bit about our odds and voted to Cut Through anyway, but a 1% chance has people saying its fundamentally hopeless. I guess the former number just doesn't sound real.
Hunger's story so far has been beating overwhelming odds in pursuit of his ideals, and some might even say a better world. Stopping now when we have never been so close yo our goals feels like an immense betrayal of what we've done so far.
Yes, Hunger is likely to die. What else is new?
Hunger's story so far has been beating overwhelming odds in pursuit of his ideals, and some might even say a better world. Stopping now when we have never been so close yo our goals feels like an immense betrayal of what we've done so far.
Yes, Hunger is likely to die. What else is new?
- Location
- Italy
I'm just goint to point out that this choice is, in the end, a very simple one.
option 1: Freedom. we're choosing to enjoy life and give up the struggle, after experiencing it in full. Hunger now KNOWS what living under the Apocryphal means, and he doesn't want to do that anymore. He gets a mulligan and to redo his initial choice, and he's now wise enough to understand that the small chance of success is not worth the price in pain he'd pay.
option 2: Vengeance. Hunger's % of victory is the best it's ever going to be. It's small, but it's now something conceivable, and that's far more than anyone else can think of. He has gone through the worst the Apocryphal Curse can throw at him, and his will has not broken. He KNOWS he's still incredibly likely to fail, but he also KNOWS that he actually has a chance now! And even if he fails, death is unlikely to come anytime soon. After all, eventually, death comes for everyone, and IF the Accursed eventually wins, any pain he suffered along the way it's likely to not matter, as presumably the Accursed will bring back his loyal cursebearers, because presumably he'll be as close to omnipotent as it's possible.
And for the argument that a Freedom Hunger might be better for the Accursed by a curse-mitigation standpoint... that's very unlikely. Vengeance-Hunger will continue to grow stronger, to mitigate his curses more, and won't die soon. But eventually, yes, he's likely to day.
...but Freedom Hunger is ALSO likely to die, eventually. After all, sooner or later, in the course of an eternity, someone stronger than him is likely to appear and face him. Or maybe he'll just be collateral damage for a fight so above his tier as this fight between Hunger and the Maiden was above an unaugmented human. The chance of it happening at any given moment in time is negligible, but in the course of eternity he IS going to die, because everything dies... in the Non-Victorious world.
So, all in all, I think this choice is mostly about how much pain Hunger is willing to take, how much he values his own happiness over his ability to influence the biggest and most important thing he could ever influence.
A Hunger that takes Freedom is a Hunger that says no to more pain, a Hunger that decided he's done enough, and now it's someone else's turn.
A Hunger that, by his own standards, is basically retiring.
A Hunger that takes Vengeance is a Hunger for which there's no compromise. Victory, or death. It's the only kind of person that can really change things on the macro-scale, but while that's definitely true... of everyone that picks this path, of everyone that makes this choice, the vast majority fails.
Hunger has better odds than most, but they're still HEAVILY against him.
OF COURSE the Seraph of Heroism is in favor of this option! Going against the odds is what heroes do. But when plot armor is not a thing, more hopeful would-be-heroes fail and die. And against Apocryphal there is no plot armor. AND YET, A TRUE HERO WOULD STILL TRY AND FAIL, RATHER THAN NOT TRY AT ALL.
The Argument is a bit muddled by the fact that Hunger's curses make it so that trying to be a hero means bringing countless pain to countless people... but he also knows that the pain he'll bring is eclipsed by the good he could and will do, especially if he succeeds. Which I imagine is why the Seraph approves of him.
...I suppose what I'm saying is that the wise choice, the choice kind to himself, is to pick freedom. But Vengeance is both the choice in which he decides stubbornly that "he is different, he'll be better, and that he can, so he must".
And also that no, Vengeange is more important. definitely that too.
option 1: Freedom. we're choosing to enjoy life and give up the struggle, after experiencing it in full. Hunger now KNOWS what living under the Apocryphal means, and he doesn't want to do that anymore. He gets a mulligan and to redo his initial choice, and he's now wise enough to understand that the small chance of success is not worth the price in pain he'd pay.
option 2: Vengeance. Hunger's % of victory is the best it's ever going to be. It's small, but it's now something conceivable, and that's far more than anyone else can think of. He has gone through the worst the Apocryphal Curse can throw at him, and his will has not broken. He KNOWS he's still incredibly likely to fail, but he also KNOWS that he actually has a chance now! And even if he fails, death is unlikely to come anytime soon. After all, eventually, death comes for everyone, and IF the Accursed eventually wins, any pain he suffered along the way it's likely to not matter, as presumably the Accursed will bring back his loyal cursebearers, because presumably he'll be as close to omnipotent as it's possible.
And for the argument that a Freedom Hunger might be better for the Accursed by a curse-mitigation standpoint... that's very unlikely. Vengeance-Hunger will continue to grow stronger, to mitigate his curses more, and won't die soon. But eventually, yes, he's likely to day.
...but Freedom Hunger is ALSO likely to die, eventually. After all, sooner or later, in the course of an eternity, someone stronger than him is likely to appear and face him. Or maybe he'll just be collateral damage for a fight so above his tier as this fight between Hunger and the Maiden was above an unaugmented human. The chance of it happening at any given moment in time is negligible, but in the course of eternity he IS going to die, because everything dies... in the Non-Victorious world.
So, all in all, I think this choice is mostly about how much pain Hunger is willing to take, how much he values his own happiness over his ability to influence the biggest and most important thing he could ever influence.
A Hunger that takes Freedom is a Hunger that says no to more pain, a Hunger that decided he's done enough, and now it's someone else's turn.
A Hunger that, by his own standards, is basically retiring.
A Hunger that takes Vengeance is a Hunger for which there's no compromise. Victory, or death. It's the only kind of person that can really change things on the macro-scale, but while that's definitely true... of everyone that picks this path, of everyone that makes this choice, the vast majority fails.
Hunger has better odds than most, but they're still HEAVILY against him.
OF COURSE the Seraph of Heroism is in favor of this option! Going against the odds is what heroes do. But when plot armor is not a thing, more hopeful would-be-heroes fail and die. And against Apocryphal there is no plot armor. AND YET, A TRUE HERO WOULD STILL TRY AND FAIL, RATHER THAN NOT TRY AT ALL.
The Argument is a bit muddled by the fact that Hunger's curses make it so that trying to be a hero means bringing countless pain to countless people... but he also knows that the pain he'll bring is eclipsed by the good he could and will do, especially if he succeeds. Which I imagine is why the Seraph approves of him.
...I suppose what I'm saying is that the wise choice, the choice kind to himself, is to pick freedom. But Vengeance is both the choice in which he decides stubbornly that "he is different, he'll be better, and that he can, so he must".
And also that no, Vengeange is more important. definitely that too.
- Location
- Europe
While I am a Freedom voter, I have to agree with this. If Hunger dies, having done his uttermost to live his Ideals he will have done so at peace with himself.
I believe keeping his word to the Accursed is a part of his ideals, which is why I vote Freedom, but Freedom could certainly kill as well.
- Location
- US
I mean, back then, we had no exit option.
For all I knew back then, there was no way to stop being afflicted by Apo other than going the full route to Full Mitigation, something I knew we'd almost certainly die before achieving.
Having a way to escape without spinning the gacha, therefore, is very attractive to me. Obviously, different people may have different opinions here, but I think Hunger deserves the chance to rest.
Speak for yourself. If I'd been around at the beginning, I'd have voted Freedom then, too.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
You know, if Hunger just takes Indenture over and over in the Freedom choice, he can fight the machinations of the Hidden Ones incidentally by screwing up the settings they've messed with and help the Accursed with True Mitigation by eating Indenture shards, which is enough to drive him to greater heights without Apocryphal's guaranteed death sentence, a decent compromise between hanging up his sword and Apocryphal, I think. Not to mention gaining favors from The Accursed to be spent on various Lesser Remittances. Also, R's said that Freedom is basically risk-free, comparatively speaking, since non-Crowning Curses just aren't shit compared to Apocryphal and her buddies, so between Cursebearer protections and Gisena's bullshit, plus whatever Catherine would be able to pull out with full access to the maiden's power. Not to mention the nonsense their future kids will be capable of. The possibility of Deferred Payment Quest with one of his kids being a thing appeals to me on a deep level. Most of the other stuff I'd have pointed out has been said already.
So, I'm going to take a different tack and shill for playing as Disney Princess Antichrist for our next Quest. That is, Charlotte 'Charlie' Morningstar, daughter of Lucifer and Lilith. The former's whole deal is that he kept his Archangel powers when he Fell, making him the most powerful being in Hell. Charlie is thus in a position similar to a Combat-Type Cursebearer without Curses to worry about. Definitely within the top 100 strongest beings in the setting, and likely within the top ten of those she's likely to encounter under any normal circumstances. The thing is that the power of demons/Sinners is largely set upon birth, or death for the latter, so insane escalation beyond her baseline power of 'can manipulate her local reality to run on different genre logic' is unlikely. That musical number isn't an imagine spot or anything, she's using her powers to mess with space, time, and cause spontaneous music in line with musical logic.
Her story isn't a Shonen one about powering up to beat God and the Devil in a fistfight though, it's about what redeeming someone actually means and how it works. R's mentioned wanting a lower-power slice of life-y setting to play around with, and while the Hazbinverse has some powerful characters(Stolas of the Goetia can reenact a certain head-turning scene by forcibly possessing someone, and he's really not even close to the top of the ladder) it's not like, say, Bleach where who can win in a fistfight does a lot to determine your status. Charlie's kindness gets her a lot of mockery throughout Hell, though she remains determined to better her kingdom, specifically hoping to end the yearly exterminations of Sinners by the angels(yeah, that's a thing) by redeeming them instead of perma-killing them(which is apparently something angels can do in this universe, despite Sinners getting an upgrade from when they were alive, sometimes a pretty major one with the Overlords like Vox or Alastor) as she has born witness to for something like a century+. This is not to say that she'll just take shit from people endlessly. She's perfectly capable of, for instance, stealing someone's pen just to be a nuisance if they prove sufficiently annoying, and she is perfectly willing to fight back if someone starts shit. Against normal figures, she's unlikely to take more than cosmetic damage. That is, her suit might be battered, but she won't have more than some soot to worry about.
So it's well-suited to a narrative quest, or maybe an AGG-alike if R wants to play around with that system.
So, I'm going to take a different tack and shill for playing as Disney Princess Antichrist for our next Quest. That is, Charlotte 'Charlie' Morningstar, daughter of Lucifer and Lilith. The former's whole deal is that he kept his Archangel powers when he Fell, making him the most powerful being in Hell. Charlie is thus in a position similar to a Combat-Type Cursebearer without Curses to worry about. Definitely within the top 100 strongest beings in the setting, and likely within the top ten of those she's likely to encounter under any normal circumstances. The thing is that the power of demons/Sinners is largely set upon birth, or death for the latter, so insane escalation beyond her baseline power of 'can manipulate her local reality to run on different genre logic' is unlikely. That musical number isn't an imagine spot or anything, she's using her powers to mess with space, time, and cause spontaneous music in line with musical logic.
Her story isn't a Shonen one about powering up to beat God and the Devil in a fistfight though, it's about what redeeming someone actually means and how it works. R's mentioned wanting a lower-power slice of life-y setting to play around with, and while the Hazbinverse has some powerful characters(Stolas of the Goetia can reenact a certain head-turning scene by forcibly possessing someone, and he's really not even close to the top of the ladder) it's not like, say, Bleach where who can win in a fistfight does a lot to determine your status. Charlie's kindness gets her a lot of mockery throughout Hell, though she remains determined to better her kingdom, specifically hoping to end the yearly exterminations of Sinners by the angels(yeah, that's a thing) by redeeming them instead of perma-killing them(which is apparently something angels can do in this universe, despite Sinners getting an upgrade from when they were alive, sometimes a pretty major one with the Overlords like Vox or Alastor) as she has born witness to for something like a century+. This is not to say that she'll just take shit from people endlessly. She's perfectly capable of, for instance, stealing someone's pen just to be a nuisance if they prove sufficiently annoying, and she is perfectly willing to fight back if someone starts shit. Against normal figures, she's unlikely to take more than cosmetic damage. That is, her suit might be battered, but she won't have more than some soot to worry about.
So it's well-suited to a narrative quest, or maybe an AGG-alike if R wants to play around with that system.
WHISPER
IS VERY TRANQUIL!
Eh sorry but I don't really want to play as an existing character and prefer making an original one.
(I am aware that there have been pre existing character quests before like bleach quest, just a personal preference and reason.)
But I like that you are going for a not always used setting instead of something (overused, sorry Worm fans) like Worm.
(I am aware that there have been pre existing character quests before like bleach quest, just a personal preference and reason.)
But I like that you are going for a not always used setting instead of something (overused, sorry Worm fans) like Worm.
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- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
I really like the setting. We've had Anti-Antichrists before, but one that was actually raised by the Devil and his wife is a relatively unknown concept.
WHISPER
IS VERY TRANQUIL!
Considering that Charlie is already like the 3td most powerful being in hell I guess that the quest would be more narrative based with the redemption goal of the show?
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- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Yep. R's mentioned a less power-scale-y quest for once, and I explicitly compared having her as Quest Protagonist to being a Combat Cursebearer, in the sense that it's like Hunger starting off as 'merely' as strong as an Armament but with little in the way of Potential, comparatively speaking.
She's actually second most powerful, according to Vivzie.
Don't lump everyone into one vote. Freedom wasn't in the dumpster, there was actual debate and such back then too.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
The literally transfinite number of other Cursebearers. We are not in this alone, okay?
I, for one, would absolutely have switched to Forsaken Mask if it had been sold as 'a less-than-one-percent-chance of ultimate success even if you survive the whole quest'.
And had been here fast enough to vote for that, admittedly. I came in a couple updates later. But while catching up I was rooting for either Forsaken Mask or Vengeance, and my interest in the latter would have been minimal if the actual success chance hadn't looked higher than 70% or so.
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RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
Combat types do cap out the amount of mitigation they can give the Accursed, eventually. It depends on Hunger's ultimate power but he's definitely gonna be much weaker than Vengeance, who might be able to provide stage 5 or 6 mitigation.
1) From a perspective of providing value by defeating the Hidden One's settings - we don't have the freedom to actually chase them or actively seek them out thanks to Indenture, plus Hunger's priorities in Freedom will be enjoying his life with his family.
2) I don't really care too much about Lesser Remittances if Freedom either, since Hunger is living a retirement life with challenges he'll be able to deal with on his own. Why make the Accursed put in effort to help us for stuff we don't really need?
Another fairly large complaint for me is that Freedom is basically hard committing to saying goodbye to Gisena, and Adorie, and all the companions we've grown close to over the quest (because Hunger only has 2 companion slots, and must commit them to Catherine + his kid). Since we haven't seen much of either it's got 0 appeal personally.
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Rihaku
The Internet
There is no hard limit on the system, only a soft one of plausibility. A normal man rose to become the Forebear in the first place!