At Hunger's current level it is almost impossible to create relevant Edeldross Grace, with something like 30% Str or +++++ to some common stat being the maximum of what we can expect. Giving Hunger something relevant to Dien combat is just downright not possible. In fact, it is likely much efficient for Gisena to develop "empower a champion" Grace and then use it on Hunger than to waste time developing us our own Grace.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
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Strife Without End is mostly a praxis vote (probably for Closing the Fist), I think, but could also be Regalia of Strife, which is basically Hunger++.
Full Throttle is Big Robot.
While the Council Graces were quite powerful, they are not the only ones Gisena has encountered. Since she enhances them to the level of her strongest Graces anyway, even a weak Grace with an appropriate focus could come in handy. Either ones directly specialize in hurting orcs, like Morgiana's ghostfire (though admittedly Lady Vanish's Grace is probably better in this regard), ones that further improve her mental stats, like Jeanne's Combat Mind, or ones that provide further support abilities to improve her Artifice, like that one dead Elixir Sorceress.
The last could provide interesting synergies with the RoE's production of supernal materials. After all, it explicitly allows the usage of consumables for permanent gains, so making potions could get us even better results. Hmm, probably something for when we're less pressed for time and can afford to experiment.
Hmm, I also dimly remember a Sorceress that had the power to become an instant expert in any normal skill, though on its own it's probably pretty useless for our current circumstances.
Most importantly, we can choose two Graces, so we should pick ones that [REDACTED] with each other and with the teams's powers. Like, the orc-controlling Grace of Lady Vanish is obviously very useful for us right now, but it would be even better if Gisena had some kind of Grace that allowed it to self-propagate (maybe using Hunger's Pressure?) or one that strengthened an army under her command.
I think the two Halos represent two alternative mindsets that could lead to victory. With Singularity Gisena frees the Republic populace and takes advantage of their human and material resources to combat Dien, whereas with Renaissance she employs magic against magic. My preferences lie with the latter, tbh, especially since the Singularity Halo could prove quite self-defeating once Dr. Apocalypse arrives.
If we're talking novel effects unrelated to Graces she has seen before, Gisena could focus on buffing Hunger's magics? Dien has an army of orcs, but it's not like Hunger is completely incapable of summoning his own army, it would just have a prohibitive cost. Since Supreme Enclosure has become all but useless by now anyway, we could simply enact a major working that would dispense with all the annoying restrictions and summon all the Astral entities we can manage together, enslaving them in the process.
Alternatively, she could focus on enhancing and channeling the party's Imaginary Elements. Surgecraft's specialty is large-scale effects, so maybe she could create some kind of Element Halo that would direct their powers appropriately? Edeldross could be made to only buff humans and free them, Vigorflame could destroy orcs while it infuses humans with life, Sharpbright could better channel Hunger's enormous Pressure against the Heroes...
If we're just throwing ideas at the wall, maybe she could somehow poison findross so that the orcs absorbing it would die off? Collaborate with Hunger to create a blood plague? Find inspiration in Augustine's trickery? Hmm, that one spell that stole Verschlengorge from under Letrizia has left quite an impression, could she do a repeat of that? Or maybe some of the other spells Augustine has shown, though there were too many examples to say anything concrete.
527 Words
The last could provide interesting synergies with the RoE's production of supernal materials. After all, it explicitly allows the usage of consumables for permanent gains, so making potions could get us even better results. Hmm, probably something for when we're less pressed for time and can afford to experiment.
Hmm, I also dimly remember a Sorceress that had the power to become an instant expert in any normal skill, though on its own it's probably pretty useless for our current circumstances.
Most importantly, we can choose two Graces, so we should pick ones that [REDACTED] with each other and with the teams's powers. Like, the orc-controlling Grace of Lady Vanish is obviously very useful for us right now, but it would be even better if Gisena had some kind of Grace that allowed it to self-propagate (maybe using Hunger's Pressure?) or one that strengthened an army under her command.
I think the two Halos represent two alternative mindsets that could lead to victory. With Singularity Gisena frees the Republic populace and takes advantage of their human and material resources to combat Dien, whereas with Renaissance she employs magic against magic. My preferences lie with the latter, tbh, especially since the Singularity Halo could prove quite self-defeating once Dr. Apocalypse arrives.
If we're talking novel effects unrelated to Graces she has seen before, Gisena could focus on buffing Hunger's magics? Dien has an army of orcs, but it's not like Hunger is completely incapable of summoning his own army, it would just have a prohibitive cost. Since Supreme Enclosure has become all but useless by now anyway, we could simply enact a major working that would dispense with all the annoying restrictions and summon all the Astral entities we can manage together, enslaving them in the process.
Alternatively, she could focus on enhancing and channeling the party's Imaginary Elements. Surgecraft's specialty is large-scale effects, so maybe she could create some kind of Element Halo that would direct their powers appropriately? Edeldross could be made to only buff humans and free them, Vigorflame could destroy orcs while it infuses humans with life, Sharpbright could better channel Hunger's enormous Pressure against the Heroes...
If we're just throwing ideas at the wall, maybe she could somehow poison findross so that the orcs absorbing it would die off? Collaborate with Hunger to create a blood plague? Find inspiration in Augustine's trickery? Hmm, that one spell that stole Verschlengorge from under Letrizia has left quite an impression, could she do a repeat of that? Or maybe some of the other spells Augustine has shown, though there were too many examples to say anything concrete.
527 Words
Zampano
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- Location
- Simping for DSB
When we were last in the Realm of Evening, working with Gisena gave us this option:
In defense of the proposed tactic: I would probably be willing to take a power-reduction in exchange for a perfectly targeted Grace attached to our most powerful combatant. Something like "Unerringly knows the location of one enemy" would be incredibly potent when plugged into the combat platform that is Hunger.
But you're essentially right. Critical Mass is likely to mean that Rihaku rolls for Gisena to solve our problem for us, maybe with a small modifier for audience participation. I'm really grasping for alternative tactics. Other ideas for Artifice:
- Planetary Rank Engines, to awaken the populace
- Astral resonators that amplify Hunger's Rank for specialized applications (e.g. purification)
- Worldships to bundle up the untainted Human Sphere and bail into darkspace outside of Dien's range
Edit: I'm right on the edge of switching to
Edit Before Bedtime:
Worth mentioning that Gisena loses access to Grace of the Glaze & Evoker's Panoply if we get Renaissance Halo. I'm not sure what Maiden's Whisper does, either
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- Location
- Europe
I don't agree with this. Even if we assume that this build is actually a better growth engine than whatever the Accursed has, and we assume that as his Curse burden lifts he can't make up a better one, and we assume that he doesn't gain a passive growth improvement scaling with his Retinue, well, he can still copy your build. We know he keeps an eye on his cursebearers, for example he rewards Hunger for a novel mitigation strategy. There's nothing stopping him from noticing, wow, that build just happens to better than anything I've got and then replicating it.
Presumably it is the one she used to wake up Shards. As such, you are pretty much discard that one to be able to change two graces more or less at will, which is pretty good improvement overall.
High Cursebearers are described as infinitely beyond that level of power.
Rihaku
The Internet
Indeed, the types of powers that would be required to even reach High Cursebearer level are far beyond what we would find interesting or readily explicable. Almost any power is more restrictive than "can do anything logically coherent" or "can do anything, even if it isn't logically possible," but even those powers are still not, by themselves, capable of ever even approaching the level of a High Cursebearer. Something far more limited, like infinite growth speed across infinite dimensions of advancement (including conceptual expansion) with infinite temporal acceleration, is already well beyond the horizon of powers that are interesting or practical from an extended storytelling perspective.
Yup, it's the Foremost communication Grace.
The question is, to what degree is such an effect unerring? Dien already has many layered countermeasures in place to stop himself from being found...
- Location
- Europe
Alright, let's do some theorizing.
First, let's record factors we believe are relevant.
1. We need a way to find Dien.
2. We don't know a Grace that can do this.
Therefore: We need a custom grace of surpassing potency.
Therefore: we need the singularity halo.
3. We need to use the singularity halo.
4. To use the singularity halo we need to use Skill and Technology.
What is Gisena proveably skilled at?
Gisena acquired her Reneisance woman advancement by combining the Foremost runes with her graces and generated a meta-singularity.
That is, her skill with magic allowed her to utilize foremost technology to generate an effect (pseudo-retinue derived from a glimpse of Progression, this is a very high tier feat).
5. We want to use Gisena's skill with Grace magic and the technology of foremost Runes.
That doesn't seem like enough though, Dien is somewhere close to intra-galactic in scale. Can we give Gisena access to a resource of comparable scope and power?
6. Hunger could manipulate stars and constellations in the Realm if Evening.
7. Dien utilizes stars for his exponential scaling.
Theory: if Gisena (or Hunger in accordance with her directions) shaped foremost runes by generating such constellations in the Realm of Evening, she would be able to scale up her technology (runes, Realm of Evening manipulation) and skill (Grace and Rune use) to a realm comparable if not exceeding Dien. The unbound potential of such a Grace or Effect would be able to find Dien, or do something equally useful.
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HC are around that level of power - Tier 3 is the place where logic no longer works as those beings are above that but still below Tier 4 - true omnipotence (and beat all of Tier 3)
Rihaku
The Internet
Well, the character in question needs to be effectively 'omnipotent' in a way surpassing logic, not just possess some abilities that defy logic. For example, Spiral Energy arguably defies logic but no Spiral Energy being we've seen is even a Tier 2 omnipotent. Tier 3 omnipotence is already well beyond the finite ISH - i.e. well beyond effects like perfect defenses and meta-level powers, and powers which are superior to those powers in the same way that a perfect defense is superior to a normal shield, and so on iterated infinitely... To have 'general reality warping which defies the logic of one multiverse' would not suffice, since someone like High-Showing Featherine (ISH ~4.99) is arguably more powerful due to her greater effect penetration. Consider all the crazy shit Nameless can do, but he's not a Tier 2 omnipotent, much less Tier 3!
That said, High Cursebearers and the beings that oppose them are not Tier 3 omnipotents, they are infinitely above Tier 3 but not the True Omnipotent. 'Tiers of omnipotence' is not a structural classification inherent to reality, it's an abstraction used to construct an example!
The Halo of Singularity would allow her to make an invention or other technological apparatus, but not a Grace since the Halo itself would render nearby findross inert!
- Location
- Europe
Could she shape a construct in the Realm of Evening that, when invested with Findross would create her desired grace? Essentially, use Singularity to create the Grace Mold, then switch it off and fill it with Findross to catalyze the Grace.
The reason Graces are the goal is because she can catalyze those with her own energy and take them out of the Realm of Evening, it also seems to be her area of greatest skill.
Edit: I suppose if it needs to be tech in a strict sense she could abuse the realm of evening even harder, and have it just generate mass effect type Element Zero and similar substances that just directly let her manipulate the state she wants, and then call the end product technology. But that seems even more cheat-y and not very skillful. I guess I don't trust her skill for constructing technology as much as her demonstrated skill at grace creation, not when going up against Dien.
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How can we abuse that if Pillars does not let anyone pull stuff out of the realm?
It allows treatments, potions, surgeries, and the like.
Have her build a beam that makes Aobaru go SSJ4, or develope some super soldier serums. Make a catalyst which unlockes prescient telepathic powers, or a hyperbolic time chamber with a dien-replicating holodeck. Ask her to design a martial art or repair the Blade.
Have her build a beam that makes Aobaru go SSJ4, or develope some super soldier serums. Make a catalyst which unlockes prescient telepathic powers, or a hyperbolic time chamber with a dien-replicating holodeck. Ask her to design a martial art or repair the Blade.
Aobaru will get what his heart desires the most - chest hair!
I'm not why you'd choose to purposefully limit yourself just because operating at the limits of your ability seems 'cheaty'. Hunger's ability to manipulate the RoE is just another tool we can use, there's no reason at all why we shouldn't use it.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
I meant in his current state. Didn't I explicitly mention the peak would actively be rising?
Hunger is too small brained for Subordination of Battle (he is not qualified yet).
If only we had a cool guy to teach us Praxis shit
If only we had a cool guy to teach us Praxis shit
- Location
- a place
Hunger is too small brained for Subordination of Battle (he is not qualified yet).
If only we had a cool guy to teach us Praxis shit
You know, if we had just sacrificed Aoboru to Seram /jk
- Location
- Europe
I was being charitable, since I don't believe Greedy would reach his current state.
Zampano
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- Location
- Simping for DSB
Regalia of Strife would leave us with no Arete left over for Piloting blurbs, but holding on to the Blade when he enters Totality would give hunger something like 4500 Potency. I'm not sure how Cut Through's Willpower -> STR conversion affects Hunger's Potency score, so it's tough to say how much stronger Ruin is for NovaHunger is than regular Hunger. But 4500 in any stat is something to work towards.
(I'm not sure we're at 8 Arete yet, but if March is doubled then the long duration between updates makes me more optimistic about being able to afford Regalia.)
Would Regalia + 0-Arete Robot be able to corner Dien?