- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It's not abandonment.
It's just a temporary vacation while we get in the fucking robot.
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
It's just a temporary vacation while we get in the fucking robot.
I think Accurse choice is not bad.
Accurse's favor maybe also open another line of advancement.
I actually hope for Accurse's ire like what Seram got.
30% chance to instant win in case people try to mind control us seem super useful.
I think conflict in human sphere will become gundam wars.We maybe not face people that use mind control much thought.
So we need to get stronger before another gundam show up.
Accurse's favor maybe also open another line of advancement.
I actually hope for Accurse's ire like what Seram got.
30% chance to instant win in case people try to mind control us seem super useful.
I think conflict in human sphere will become gundam wars.We maybe not face people that use mind control much thought.
So we need to get stronger before another gundam show up.
The wish was supposed to activate when Hunger needed it most so its activation conditions would be similar to a defensive wish.
Would the Apocryphal Armament provide curse mitigation? We haven't gotten any from Verschlengorge so I don't think that the Apocryphal Armament will either. You shouldn't make up benefits for the option for the options you like
A Hero's Reward gives us the opportunity to meet Haeliel once more, so it may give us the opportunity to get a lesser wish from her, which would be a true wish when acting against the Apocryphal.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, Mitigation: Verschlengorge was mentioned to be a thing in an early participation reward so it's not exactly unreasonable to believe that linking with the Apocryphal Armament would offer some method of mitigating it's own curse, though whether that method will be of use to us is unknown.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
Your posts have been
Edit to cut down on the melodrama
I clearly laid out two pieces of evidence that suggest Armaments have access to indirect mitigation strategies. Verschlengorge is confirmed to have curse mitigation from eating defeated enemies. Procyon was able to travel with support troops, which implies that the Plenary Brand has not seared "ten billion impressions of [itself] into the minds of [its] allies, rendering them comatose."
Meanwhile, you have made up some "activation conditions" for Orm's wish that nobody else seems to be aware of. Maybe you'd like to provide evidence for your claims?
...looks like that'll be a no, because a Lesser Wish from Haeliel was a reward from [] Follow Through, which was a losing vote option. On the scale of wishful thinking, I think getting a wish for half-assing a heroic sacrifice is a lot more optimistic and a lot less supported than anything I've said so far
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A lot of nice options. While I have some time constraints till tomorrow evening, I'm mostly warming up to Myth and legend and Hero's reward. My curiosity about the mystery box, and the overwhelming need to get more headpats is driving me to vote
[X] A Hero's Reward
But honestly both are fine for me I think. Not voting on our wounds till I have time to read some thread wisdom and think about it.
[X] A Hero's Reward
But honestly both are fine for me I think. Not voting on our wounds till I have time to read some thread wisdom and think about it.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Population Nine
(Previously)
My objective here is to kill Jack Slash. If I play along, there's a bunch of people who might be saveable, but it's hundreds - thousands? - of people, against the world. And against everyone else the Nine will kill if not stopped. I simply don't have the time for both rescue and counterattack. I've tried getting more; nothing's worked. They thrive on this sort of dichotomy.
Always save the world.
I release a wall of fire from each arm, following the edges of the storm, then start expanding it in a crescent. I want them trapped, especially since Jack's probably among the hostages - that seems like the sort of trick he'd go for - but I don't want Crawler having more opportunity to test my fire than necessary. (Pretty sure the car lot's at the far end of town; the storm's been staying rooftop-level.)
Then I take off, or rather go from hovering to high-speed flight. I think I'm going close to the speed of sound here, but I can't measure well. I'm not slower than I was in berserker form, just less kinetic. The river follows the general line of the valley, meaning the creek has to be at the other end of town.
It doesn't take long to get there, trailing another wall of fire behind me. Quite a lot of spiderzombies fail to stab me by simple dint of slowness, and are burned to ash for their troubles. One pretends to be civilian, which I check via flame-tendril - on first contact, he inevitably detonates. Can't tell if his brain was overridden, replaced and emulated, or what, so run from the other few I see.
...Preserving Bonesaw has dropped half a priority level, deservedly or not. Also, I really want to kill Jack now.
As I reach the creek district, the street is wall-to-wall with weeping/whimpering/pleading/hopeful/generally emotional human bombs, and the river has visible lurkers, obscured by a spreading red. If I ask whether this is Bonesaw's challenge, some will probably detonate to make another screen. I'm quickly coming to loathe the Nine, even as I appreciate the cunning of their craft.
Instead, I attack the river. A river of - okay, that can't be primarily blood, it's probably just algae or something - becomes a river of fire, and I fly on through. Then I get a headache, and my nose starts bleeding.
My fire should be hot enough - conceptually, if nothing else - to not let even absurd super-pathogens through. Probably a power, then. Sorry, pleading bomb-people. I can't risk leaving you this time. I release a circle of fire big enough to level anything line-of-sight within four blocks, and the headache recedes.
The fire passes, revealing a dome of disturbed rubble speeding toward me. A whipblast cracks through it, but doesn't seem to bother it. A van-sized stream doesn't do much better. As it draws close, I summon two swords of the flame - huh, is Hellflame an actual secondary element? - and dodge to the side, slicing it open. I think thematic resonance makes swords my strongest option. ...And one sword is probably stronger than two, at least when I'm not using both.
I whirl to face it, and it unfolds, revealing two cyborgs. One of them has a chainsaw arm, a shotgun arm, steel armor, and jeans; the other is dressed in a hospital gown and is weeping blood from its' eyes, ears, nose, and mouth.
Inventory/Reminders:
-Flame swords
-General-purpose pyrokinesis; better suited to burning than to blasting
-Rapid flight
-Ultra-high-capacity pistols, not presently buffed
-A small supply of Devildoor, enough for a couple portals or a short-lived buff
[ ] Write in tactics
(Previously)
My objective here is to kill Jack Slash. If I play along, there's a bunch of people who might be saveable, but it's hundreds - thousands? - of people, against the world. And against everyone else the Nine will kill if not stopped. I simply don't have the time for both rescue and counterattack. I've tried getting more; nothing's worked. They thrive on this sort of dichotomy.
Always save the world.
I release a wall of fire from each arm, following the edges of the storm, then start expanding it in a crescent. I want them trapped, especially since Jack's probably among the hostages - that seems like the sort of trick he'd go for - but I don't want Crawler having more opportunity to test my fire than necessary. (Pretty sure the car lot's at the far end of town; the storm's been staying rooftop-level.)
Then I take off, or rather go from hovering to high-speed flight. I think I'm going close to the speed of sound here, but I can't measure well. I'm not slower than I was in berserker form, just less kinetic. The river follows the general line of the valley, meaning the creek has to be at the other end of town.
It doesn't take long to get there, trailing another wall of fire behind me. Quite a lot of spiderzombies fail to stab me by simple dint of slowness, and are burned to ash for their troubles. One pretends to be civilian, which I check via flame-tendril - on first contact, he inevitably detonates. Can't tell if his brain was overridden, replaced and emulated, or what, so run from the other few I see.
...Preserving Bonesaw has dropped half a priority level, deservedly or not. Also, I really want to kill Jack now.
As I reach the creek district, the street is wall-to-wall with weeping/whimpering/pleading/hopeful/generally emotional human bombs, and the river has visible lurkers, obscured by a spreading red. If I ask whether this is Bonesaw's challenge, some will probably detonate to make another screen. I'm quickly coming to loathe the Nine, even as I appreciate the cunning of their craft.
Instead, I attack the river. A river of - okay, that can't be primarily blood, it's probably just algae or something - becomes a river of fire, and I fly on through. Then I get a headache, and my nose starts bleeding.
My fire should be hot enough - conceptually, if nothing else - to not let even absurd super-pathogens through. Probably a power, then. Sorry, pleading bomb-people. I can't risk leaving you this time. I release a circle of fire big enough to level anything line-of-sight within four blocks, and the headache recedes.
The fire passes, revealing a dome of disturbed rubble speeding toward me. A whipblast cracks through it, but doesn't seem to bother it. A van-sized stream doesn't do much better. As it draws close, I summon two swords of the flame - huh, is Hellflame an actual secondary element? - and dodge to the side, slicing it open. I think thematic resonance makes swords my strongest option. ...And one sword is probably stronger than two, at least when I'm not using both.
I whirl to face it, and it unfolds, revealing two cyborgs. One of them has a chainsaw arm, a shotgun arm, steel armor, and jeans; the other is dressed in a hospital gown and is weeping blood from its' eyes, ears, nose, and mouth.
Boss Fight: Pockmark and Coronary
Inventory/Reminders:
-Flame swords
-General-purpose pyrokinesis; better suited to burning than to blasting
-Rapid flight
-Ultra-high-capacity pistols, not presently buffed
-A small supply of Devildoor, enough for a couple portals or a short-lived buff
[ ] Write in tactics
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Myth and Legend is the one for dodging the consequences of this fight, it's relatively powerful(More so than Armory of Night Verschlengorge or a King for All Seasons without Hour of Reckoning) but to get the full value of Adories help we may need to bring her with us, sacrificing her Apocryphal protection for our holdings, though so long as our interests and Adories are aligned, everyone gets a 0.5 rank debuff from fighting us for working against her interests.
There is a mystery box either way. What we get if we spend the Heroic upgrade on another Haeliel meeting on one side, and what the heroic upgrades for the advancements we already have are on the other side. We don't get to see both unfortunately.
A King for All Seasons and Accursed Implement are unfortunately not so popular, which is a pity because Wolfy had this great Wombo combo with Sword in the Stone and Fisher King's Grail Keeper Ability. Also A King for All Seasons gets us a self-resurrection technique which may be smart given our decisionmaking tendencies.
All the conditions are terrible on some level depending on your particular value structure:
Lessened would be a terrible Idea given accursed Implement's lack of popularity
Grievous Exertion is fine if you're backing Myth and Legend but Apocrypha bait if you back anything else. We might not even have the rank to use our sign gains to make the armament if taken in conjunction with Armory of Night for example.
Lesser Foresleep makes Aobaru more vulnerable if taken with anything but A Hero's Reward or Myth and Legend and is likely to wreak havoc on our travel time to the Voyaging City.
Over-Refined is in my opinion, the least terrible condition if we were to take it with Armory of Night and make the Apocryphal Armament. We get a passable replacement goldfish for our Praxis abilities until whenever we find a healing opportunity we're willing to pursue or 208.572 Realspace Days/156.572 Realm of Evening Days in the form of an Extremely fast giant Robot with Esoteric attacks competitive with Artful Thorn that is faster than Hunger unless he uses ROQ. We also get a Heroic upgrade to an ability we already have and those are supposed to be quite powerful.
Assuming killing Procyon put us in the Empire's good books/we don't have to worry about that enemy of the Empire thing from fighting the Rotbeast we aren't going to need Refinement of Place. It doesn't cost us any rank or stats, meaning that if the secret cursebearer benefits for Armament pilots include rank or stat hybridization on any level we are likely to be quite hax given how Haeliel's favor elevates our stats on the ISH. Deathly Stars also scale with rank so if we get rank hybridization Armament Deathly Stars will be utterly ridiculous. Rihaku even Devils Advocated for it. It's closer to a genre change than an actual consequence if taken with Armory of Night.
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- Location
- Louisiana
One thing to note for Myth and Legend is that I'm pretty sure the wound prevention isn't a one time thing. Adorie would just become capable of healing anything below a lesser shattering blow, which is pretty substantial for our risk taking endeavors.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
While we're near her. To get that benefit reliably demands we open up our holdings to the Apocryphals Depredations.
Would also probably dramatically raise the efficiency of future Shatterings, too. Get away with "merely" serious conditions for Lesser Shattering Blow. Higher cap for power/memory retention and more efficient arete-to-self conversion rate for the Shattering Blow proper.
The latter is somewhat of a periphery benefit, given thread opinion on Shattering Blow (lol never) but it is there.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
So. We've got two Word of Rihaku's I'm aware of when it comes to the power of Various options in addition to what's in the Blurbs.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Accursed Implement describes Hunger's prognosis for Fighting Armaments as dicey without Realm of Evening training. So lets put that at the bottom and see how everything parses out with these GM Statements from a power standpoint.
Accursed Implement<A King for All Seasons(Without Hour of Reckoning) | Armory of Night Verschlengorge<Myth and Legend Hunger | A Hero's Reward? <Armory of Night(Somehow, probably related to the Apocryphal Armament)<A King for All Seasons(With Hour of Reckoning)
A Simple Transaction I Original
A quest about a simple transaction and the consequences that follow.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
A Simple Transaction I Original
A quest about a simple transaction and the consequences that follow.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Accursed Implement describes Hunger's prognosis for Fighting Armaments as dicey without Realm of Evening training. So lets put that at the bottom and see how everything parses out with these GM Statements from a power standpoint.
Accursed Implement<A King for All Seasons(Without Hour of Reckoning) | Armory of Night Verschlengorge<Myth and Legend Hunger | A Hero's Reward? <Armory of Night(Somehow, probably related to the Apocryphal Armament)<A King for All Seasons(With Hour of Reckoning)
... I think the question I was laboring under here, when writing this post, is this:
How, exactly, does the Apocryphal Curse plan or think?
What is it's level/sense of "fair play", and what is its level of "interesting"?
If we come out of this fight unwounded (due to Myth and Legend), does it calibrate for a Hunger that was wounded by the recent Apocryphal Proc, or not?
Does it decide to throw something at you that it thinks you could handle but isn't sure and wants to test you on it?
Or does it just slowly scale up and it's up to you to see if you can keep up?
Does it function by aiming for interesting situations? Or does it function by escalating? What is prioritized and more important, in it's decision-making?
Yes, it is Apocryphal Bait. But so is every other condition. But I think, with Accursed Implement... it's a GOOD sort of bait.
Because the combination of Accursed Implement with Grievous Exertion -- which lasts for 1 month -- means that we immediately knock 3 weeks off of it in the Realm of Evening... And we have 22 Arete left after taking Accursed Implement.
Accursed Implement + Grievous (or Armory of Night + Over-Refined) is THE choice+condition combination to go for, I feel, out of almost anything else besides Myth and Legend which laughs at any conditions. It might, in fact, be even better than Myth and Legend, from a certain perspective... More on that below.
Look, I think... The trick to handling the Apocryphal Curse is... managing it. Managing risks, and managing situations.
You're not going to survive it by playing perfectly safely/cautiously. (Equally, you're not going to survive it by running into it headfirst, obviously.) You're not going to survive it by fearing it too much, though.
I think a good approach to take might be to give it manageable openings and weaknesses.
Like, look... Yeah, Grievous Exertion notes that it's Apocryphal bait. But that can actually be a good thing!
Because, with 21+ Arete from Accursed Implement, and 3 weeks in Realm of Evening, we are totally set to defeat the Apocryphal Proc it throws our way!
Because, like, remember -- it's not like the Apocryphal Curse has an off button. (Outside of the rare beneficial Condition; which comes up when you throw yourself into insanely over-leveled areas like the Temple!)
The Apocryphal will try to proc and come at us anyway. Not having Grievous Exertion, will just mean that we won't know how it will come at us.
Like... If we have Myth and Legend, and are unwounded. That means that Apocryphal will look at us, and throw us a challenge that's calibrated for a mostly-unwounded Hunger, right? And it'll ask itself, "What can I do to make his life challenging or interesting? Where does the hero have weaknesses or lacks? What would be interesting?"
And each choice, and condition combo, provides an 'answer' to that. Some choices have really high rank, but not high stats. Some choices have glaring weakspots, some have glaring strengths.
Myth and Legend has no horrible weakness from the battle. So that means if the Apocryphal procs... We have to ask ourselves. Does that mean that it will assume/presume/act-as if we were wounded from the Armament fight, and so might "mess up" by throwing a straightforward assassin or fight at a presumed-weak Hunger, when Myth and Legend means he'll be fit and raring to fight? Or does that mean that it will do whatever it takes to come up with an Interesting Encounter for a 'Myth and Legend-taken Hunger'?
That's why I've been musing on the Accursed Implement + Grievous Exertion option.
Because, sure. You can look at it as tempting fate. As taking risks against the Apocryphal Curse.
Or you can look at it as setting a trap. For the Apocryphal Curse.
Because, like... You have 3 fucking weeks to heal, and you are about to go into the Realm of Evening. Like... That condition. That only spoke about 1 month of real-time. It is not taking into account the level of healing that you'd find in the Realm of Evening. At all.
Accursed Implement + Grievous Exertion is looking at the Apocryphal Curse and saying "Come on, hit me! Do it!" while standing next to a Full-Heal potion, and 21 Arete.
Accursed Implement + Grievous Exertion might be a way to handle the next up to 3 Apocryphal Procs (IIRC, the Curse has a chance to proc every week right, so in 3 weeks it might hit 3 times, right?).
I would say this: take Accursed Implement and Grievous Exertion, for the best way to bait the Apocryphal Curse into a trap.
If you take Grievous Exertion with any other option, then you are taking the calculated risk of being able to generate enough Arete in the following updates in order to make the Realm of Evening really worth it. And that's fine! That might be a reasonable calculation or gamble to take!
But with Accursed Implement? It's not a gamble, it's stacking the motherfucking deck.
It really IS, a powerful choice, to take Accursed Implement and Grievous Exertion.
-----------------------------
Armory of Night + Over-Refined has a similar result. It seals the Praxis, in exchange for doing your best fighting in a GIANT DEATH ROBOT. It sadly lacks the Arete of Accursed Implement (or any other option, really). But it still does the following: it gives you a weakness in fighting via a Condition, and it gives you a way to cover up that weakness. It's a solid choice, I feel.
Myth and Legend, thinking about it, is almost like a "Tabula Rasa" choice. ((Hm. Which makes A Hero's Reward or Armory of Night to be Tabula Rasa in a different fashion.))
It is the choice that says: "Okay, I want a reset. I want to undo all the wounds. And I want to reset my Arete to zero. So, I want to see what I can accomplish going into the Realm of Evening, with low or almost no Arete."
So, it's like the Apocryphal proc fight almost didn't happen. ((Except for the boost in power from Rank and Pierce Through that you just got.))
I should say it's more like a minor reset button, rather than a Tabula Rasa. It's like a rewind; we get healing, and we get progression and power.
Hm.
Myth and Legend, is, ultimately... the CONSERVATIVE choice. (You could call it cowardly or over-cautious if you like. I wouldn't, but, eh.)
A Hero's Reward is also Tabula Rasa. More-so than Myth and Legend, now that I typed the above out, and determined that Myth and Legend is more like the "conservative" and the "okay, let's rewind things back a bit" option.
Hero's Reward... is the one that says "Okay, I don't know what's going to happen. But let's change everything." It's Tabula Rasa in a "gambling to see what comes out of the mystery box" sense.
The other sense in which it is Tabula Rasa, is in the death chance.
If the roll goes bad (or maybe if the roll goes to nat 100; after all, it's too much power that's the problem, so... Maybe we explode on a nat 1 or a nat 100 both.) then you restart in another world. It's the most literal form of Tabula Rasa. Well, sort of. You keep your upgrade from it, so!
Armory of Night, is Tabula Rasa in a very... "Reset the genre into Super Robots" fashion. In that sense, it's more true to the phrase. It launches Hunger into a different sort of genre or strategic civ game/conquering RTS game.
------------------------------
Hm...
Having typed all this out... I think...
The conclusion I came to that the best way to defend yourself against the Apocryphal Curse?
Is to diversify.
The Apocryphal Curse strikes at areas where you are weak. Or at least, it prefers to do so.
THIS is why there was a post that bemoaned how we felt like we had jumped a lot in the first Elixir Sovereignty visit or that we wouldn't need more power after the Opalescent Tower + Tears of Winter, and that we then got nasty surprises. And felt that this was proof that "Pfft, we don't need more power, we're good" was disproven.
It's because the truth is that not being well-rounded is the 'weakness' against the Apocryphal Curse.
However, I should insert a clarifier, here. It's possible that being well-rounded is also not the best option against the Apocryphal Curse. Because. If you are strong everywhere, then the Apocryphal Curse has no obvious place to hit... ... So it'll just throw more power.
So.
I think the best bet approach against the Apocryphal Curse, is breadth and depth of power. Careful balance and thought. Balance between leaving a bit of lagging-behind-in-power (slightly), to provide an obvious target. Balance between blocking off ways it can attack you; like such as by grabbing Adorie's "Spare The Innocent" ability, which makes it so that areas she rules can't be directly hit by the Apocryphal Curse.
So it comes down to several things:
*Fast advancement
*In both breadth and depth!
*Character/personality: the willingness, and will, to kick ass and take names, to be willing and able to fight or take a risk when you have to
*Curse Mitigation. Sometimes the obvious answer is indeed the obvious answer
*Armaments count here, too. The Apocryphal Armament indeed would lead to Advancements and options for directly affecting and influencing the Apocryphal Curse somehow
*Do not fear too much. But also...
*Do not be too fearless
*It really really depends here... How does the Apocryphal Curse function? What does it want? Yeah sure okay yes there's the obvious: it says "may you live in interesting times," and the humorous interlude which was from its perspective said "Remember, your job isn't to kill the hero, it's to make him yell your favorite phrase: 'Fuck these so-called interesting times!'"
... Gah. You know what, I really would love to have Haeliel's advice and experience on this. She's had eons, epochs, of experience with the Apocryphal Curse. She just had sheer experience and the common sense and knowledge and understanding of how it acts and what it does. Like... Just her sharing some wisdom about it, confirming or denying some of the speculation I engaged in in this post, would be extremely helpful or handy. ((Of course, Haeliel is biased or predisposed to a certain take: she's an embodiment of heroism, after all. But still.)) I'm not expecting or assuming a silver bullet or anything of course. But I would absolutely love to have her here to confirm, deny, or even at least just provide more discussion, on the things I speculated on in this post.
How, exactly, does the Apocryphal Curse plan or think?
What is it's level/sense of "fair play", and what is its level of "interesting"?
If we come out of this fight unwounded (due to Myth and Legend), does it calibrate for a Hunger that was wounded by the recent Apocryphal Proc, or not?
Does it decide to throw something at you that it thinks you could handle but isn't sure and wants to test you on it?
Or does it just slowly scale up and it's up to you to see if you can keep up?
Does it function by aiming for interesting situations? Or does it function by escalating? What is prioritized and more important, in it's decision-making?
I'd actually assert that Grievous Exertion would be fine with not just Myth and Legend, but also Accursed Implement.
Yes, it is Apocryphal Bait. But so is every other condition. But I think, with Accursed Implement... it's a GOOD sort of bait.
Because the combination of Accursed Implement with Grievous Exertion -- which lasts for 1 month -- means that we immediately knock 3 weeks off of it in the Realm of Evening... And we have 22 Arete left after taking Accursed Implement.
Accursed Implement + Grievous (or Armory of Night + Over-Refined) is THE choice+condition combination to go for, I feel, out of almost anything else besides Myth and Legend which laughs at any conditions. It might, in fact, be even better than Myth and Legend, from a certain perspective... More on that below.
Look, I think... The trick to handling the Apocryphal Curse is... managing it. Managing risks, and managing situations.
You're not going to survive it by playing perfectly safely/cautiously. (Equally, you're not going to survive it by running into it headfirst, obviously.) You're not going to survive it by fearing it too much, though.
I think a good approach to take might be to give it manageable openings and weaknesses.
Like, look... Yeah, Grievous Exertion notes that it's Apocryphal bait. But that can actually be a good thing!
Because, with 21+ Arete from Accursed Implement, and 3 weeks in Realm of Evening, we are totally set to defeat the Apocryphal Proc it throws our way!
Because, like, remember -- it's not like the Apocryphal Curse has an off button. (Outside of the rare beneficial Condition; which comes up when you throw yourself into insanely over-leveled areas like the Temple!)
The Apocryphal will try to proc and come at us anyway. Not having Grievous Exertion, will just mean that we won't know how it will come at us.
Like... If we have Myth and Legend, and are unwounded. That means that Apocryphal will look at us, and throw us a challenge that's calibrated for a mostly-unwounded Hunger, right? And it'll ask itself, "What can I do to make his life challenging or interesting? Where does the hero have weaknesses or lacks? What would be interesting?"
And each choice, and condition combo, provides an 'answer' to that. Some choices have really high rank, but not high stats. Some choices have glaring weakspots, some have glaring strengths.
Myth and Legend has no horrible weakness from the battle. So that means if the Apocryphal procs... We have to ask ourselves. Does that mean that it will assume/presume/act-as if we were wounded from the Armament fight, and so might "mess up" by throwing a straightforward assassin or fight at a presumed-weak Hunger, when Myth and Legend means he'll be fit and raring to fight? Or does that mean that it will do whatever it takes to come up with an Interesting Encounter for a 'Myth and Legend-taken Hunger'?
That's why I've been musing on the Accursed Implement + Grievous Exertion option.
Because, sure. You can look at it as tempting fate. As taking risks against the Apocryphal Curse.
Or you can look at it as setting a trap. For the Apocryphal Curse.
Because, like... You have 3 fucking weeks to heal, and you are about to go into the Realm of Evening. Like... That condition. That only spoke about 1 month of real-time. It is not taking into account the level of healing that you'd find in the Realm of Evening. At all.
Accursed Implement + Grievous Exertion is looking at the Apocryphal Curse and saying "Come on, hit me! Do it!" while standing next to a Full-Heal potion, and 21 Arete.
Accursed Implement + Grievous Exertion might be a way to handle the next up to 3 Apocryphal Procs (IIRC, the Curse has a chance to proc every week right, so in 3 weeks it might hit 3 times, right?).
I would say this: take Accursed Implement and Grievous Exertion, for the best way to bait the Apocryphal Curse into a trap.
If you take Grievous Exertion with any other option, then you are taking the calculated risk of being able to generate enough Arete in the following updates in order to make the Realm of Evening really worth it. And that's fine! That might be a reasonable calculation or gamble to take!
But with Accursed Implement? It's not a gamble, it's stacking the motherfucking deck.
It really IS, a powerful choice, to take Accursed Implement and Grievous Exertion.
-----------------------------
Armory of Night + Over-Refined has a similar result. It seals the Praxis, in exchange for doing your best fighting in a GIANT DEATH ROBOT. It sadly lacks the Arete of Accursed Implement (or any other option, really). But it still does the following: it gives you a weakness in fighting via a Condition, and it gives you a way to cover up that weakness. It's a solid choice, I feel.
Myth and Legend, thinking about it, is almost like a "Tabula Rasa" choice. ((Hm. Which makes A Hero's Reward or Armory of Night to be Tabula Rasa in a different fashion.))
It is the choice that says: "Okay, I want a reset. I want to undo all the wounds. And I want to reset my Arete to zero. So, I want to see what I can accomplish going into the Realm of Evening, with low or almost no Arete."
So, it's like the Apocryphal proc fight almost didn't happen. ((Except for the boost in power from Rank and Pierce Through that you just got.))
I should say it's more like a minor reset button, rather than a Tabula Rasa. It's like a rewind; we get healing, and we get progression and power.
Hm.
Myth and Legend, is, ultimately... the CONSERVATIVE choice. (You could call it cowardly or over-cautious if you like. I wouldn't, but, eh.)
A Hero's Reward is also Tabula Rasa. More-so than Myth and Legend, now that I typed the above out, and determined that Myth and Legend is more like the "conservative" and the "okay, let's rewind things back a bit" option.
Hero's Reward... is the one that says "Okay, I don't know what's going to happen. But let's change everything." It's Tabula Rasa in a "gambling to see what comes out of the mystery box" sense.
The other sense in which it is Tabula Rasa, is in the death chance.
If the roll goes bad (or maybe if the roll goes to nat 100; after all, it's too much power that's the problem, so... Maybe we explode on a nat 1 or a nat 100 both.) then you restart in another world. It's the most literal form of Tabula Rasa. Well, sort of. You keep your upgrade from it, so!Armory of Night, is Tabula Rasa in a very... "Reset the genre into Super Robots" fashion. In that sense, it's more true to the phrase. It launches Hunger into a different sort of genre or strategic civ game/conquering RTS game.
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Hm...
Having typed all this out... I think...
The conclusion I came to that the best way to defend yourself against the Apocryphal Curse?
Is to diversify.
The Apocryphal Curse strikes at areas where you are weak. Or at least, it prefers to do so.
THIS is why there was a post that bemoaned how we felt like we had jumped a lot in the first Elixir Sovereignty visit or that we wouldn't need more power after the Opalescent Tower + Tears of Winter, and that we then got nasty surprises. And felt that this was proof that "Pfft, we don't need more power, we're good" was disproven.
It's because the truth is that not being well-rounded is the 'weakness' against the Apocryphal Curse.
However, I should insert a clarifier, here. It's possible that being well-rounded is also not the best option against the Apocryphal Curse. Because. If you are strong everywhere, then the Apocryphal Curse has no obvious place to hit... ... So it'll just throw more power.
So.
I think the best bet approach against the Apocryphal Curse, is breadth and depth of power. Careful balance and thought. Balance between leaving a bit of lagging-behind-in-power (slightly), to provide an obvious target. Balance between blocking off ways it can attack you; like such as by grabbing Adorie's "Spare The Innocent" ability, which makes it so that areas she rules can't be directly hit by the Apocryphal Curse.
So it comes down to several things:
*Fast advancement
*In both breadth and depth!
*Character/personality: the willingness, and will, to kick ass and take names, to be willing and able to fight or take a risk when you have to
*Curse Mitigation. Sometimes the obvious answer is indeed the obvious answer
*Armaments count here, too. The Apocryphal Armament indeed would lead to Advancements and options for directly affecting and influencing the Apocryphal Curse somehow
*Do not fear too much. But also...
*Do not be too fearless
*It really really depends here... How does the Apocryphal Curse function? What does it want? Yeah sure okay yes there's the obvious: it says "may you live in interesting times," and the humorous interlude which was from its perspective said "Remember, your job isn't to kill the hero, it's to make him yell your favorite phrase: 'Fuck these so-called interesting times!'"
... Gah. You know what, I really would love to have Haeliel's advice and experience on this. She's had eons, epochs, of experience with the Apocryphal Curse. She just had sheer experience and the common sense and knowledge and understanding of how it acts and what it does. Like... Just her sharing some wisdom about it, confirming or denying some of the speculation I engaged in in this post, would be extremely helpful or handy. ((Of course, Haeliel is biased or predisposed to a certain take: she's an embodiment of heroism, after all. But still.)) I'm not expecting or assuming a silver bullet or anything of course. But I would absolutely love to have her here to confirm, deny, or even at least just provide more discussion, on the things I speculated on in this post.
Is arguing with you really enough to qualify as 'antagonistic'? What is about my posts that upsets you so much?
We have not actually gotten mitigation from Verschlengorge.
It was what I remembered to have said earlier in the thread to be the wording of Orm Embar's wish. Something along the lines of 'Whatever the Accursed thinks is in Hunger's best interests.'
We would in fact be paying for A Hero's Rewith 5 picks 50 arete and a Heroic advancement if it wins, so I don't think it's unreasonable to think we'll get something out of it.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
@Garlak that is a great effortpost and Grievous Exertion/Accursed Implement is apparently better than I thought.
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It has however, been hinted at in Lady of the Lake that Mitigation from Verschlengorge is possible, in addition to the established stuff about how Versch can eat enemies to satiate the Decimation. The question is if it's talking about letting Versch eat enemies to satiate our affliction or if its talking about something else. While we have not gotten Versch mitigation, we are evidently capable of getting Versch mitigation.
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Lady of the Lake “Found a new toy?” Gisena smiled happily as he walked around to her side of the fish. “No. It clung to me out of nowhere,” he deadpanned, running a hand over the scales. They varied in tone and texture, some clacking with the ceramic smoothness of porcelain, while others...
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iirc Rihaku has said the Apocryphal Curse doesn't account for 'you're injured' when deciding what to throw at you, so if we're injured it'll attack with enough force to be Interesting against a full-health/undebuffed Hunger and if we're healed it'll Also attack with enough force to be interesting against a full health/undebuffed Hunger. I can't confirm that though, he might've been talking about how encounter design works in general?
Is the Apocryphal Curse power/time-agnostic, or not? Er, wait, that was probably not clear enough... To clarify...
Let's say that Hunger is level 60 right now.
If Hunger gets knocked down to level 1 again, is the Apocryphal Curse going to start throwing "Interesting Times"-tier challenges for a level 1 Hunger?
Or is it going to keep throwing Level 60-appropriate challenges at Hunger? And it's not skin off its nose whether Level 1 Hunger can deal with that or not; if Hunger wanted to survive, he shouldn't have been knocked down to level 1.
Does the Apocryphal Curse recalibrate if a Cursebearer loses a ton of power, essentially?
@Rihaku is the Apocryphal Curse out to kill you, or is it out to make you live in interesting times? If a Cursebearer gets knocked back down in power a lot, does that Apocryphal Curse start throwing more level-appropriate challenges, or does it continue on according to the power level it 'assumes' he 'should have' had for his given amount of time as a Cursebearer?
Because if recalibrates to push a Level 1 just a much as it pushes a Level 60, then... That's a lot less apocalyptically instantly-dead than I thought. It means it's always out to test you and push you, but it's not an instant game over if you ever take a loss. (But it does mean that death-spirals, especially ones about temporary wounds and conditions, are very dangerous.) Resetting in power is still dangerous of course; because just because the Apocryphal Curse might not send a Level 60 enemy at you, doesn't mean that reality and causality won't.
I mean, obviously some amount of 'Okay, I expect you to progress and impress! Don't disappoint me!' is inherent in its approach; you do still have to keep accumulating power. But, still.
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my (Very Dubious) guess is that depends on whether it's "Hunger is at Level 1 now", or it's "Hunger has been debuffed to functional level-1 for a few months", and in the first case it adjusts and in the second it doesn't?
Rihaku
The Internet
To clarify, Myth and Legend gives Hunger himself, more personal power than the Armory of Night which enhances Versch instead. But the Armory of Night-enhanced Versch is much stronger than Myth and Legend Hunger.
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Zamp. I've told you this once in Discord, and once in thread already, but I'll say it again since you apparently are saying that it's made up again.
Honestly I'm more than a little miffed RN.
Orm explicitly said that the Lesser Wish that he used was 'Whatever the Accursed thinks is in Hunger's best interests', which led to the Cursebearer Association opportunity.
The fact that said opportunity was a result of a Lesser Wish isn't made up, but an actual fact.
Yeah, that seems reasonable. That sounds about right to me. ((I mean, as far as tentative speculation and assumptions goes. We don't know for sure, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis.))
Something like losing an arm -- too bad for you, Apocryphal Curse will put you in a juggling contest against a master clown if it feels like it!
The full-on version of Shattering Blow, to reset you to zero? The Apocryphal Curse sends you up against a swarm of level 1 or level 2 enemies.
There is, obviously, of course the danger of it having set off a proc 3 weeks ago that only just now made its way to you, and in the meantime you accidentally de-leveled yourself... but that's life, basically. Unfortunate end result.
The other way it can kill you, is if you push yourself to Shattering Blow, and then... instead of the Apocryphal Proc of Level 1 enemy swarm, you face off the natural consequence of having Nilfel have it's main fighter be reduced to Level 1. While Nilfel still has a history of militarism against other countries. ((Analogies. Obviously it's not just Level 1, because you also still have strong allies, and so on.))
... Okay yes and obviously the main way it can kill you is it can throw a proc at you, and you fail to beat it. (Or all the myriad of chain results, like seeking too recklessly after power, etc etc. I wasn't going to go into it. This still was just meant to speculate on "Level 1? Or just debuffed?" situation.)
Speaking of "still have strong allies" -- one way it can challenge you at Level 1 Again Dammit, is not be swarms of Level 1/2 enemies against you when you're separated from allies. It can probably throw challenges at your allies' level, but ones which if Hunger pushes himself a lot he can just make a difference. So. It's not purely just "Okay, only level 1-2ish enemies now." But it might mean that higher-level challenges, are ones that are meant to challenge you and your friends. Rather than a sign that the Apocryphal is still perfectly happy to send Level 60 enemies your way. ((Of course, I wouldn't bet on this. It might be out for the kill. It is a Curse, and a Crowning Curse at that. But.))
Hmmm. That's probably why (or, well, one of the reasons why) the Terminator is so dangerous -- because he's already set to go. If Hunger is reset to Level 1, the Terminator won't oblige. He'll still be the huge threat to Aobaru that he is.
With other Apocryphal circumstances, if Hunger had reset himself to Level 1, the trials and tribulations would have rescaled themselves to account for "Level 1 Hunger + allies" down from "Level 60 Hunger + allies."
But the risk we took with the Terminator (aside from the scary as shit ability of it to grow) is that, from now on, if we got knocked down a lot? Well, the Terminator was already out there. We'd have to reorient to trying to power-level Aobaru. Rather than hoping that we could just level up ourselves and handle it ourselves.
So, still actually maybe-handleable at Level 1. It's just, your strategy then becomes dependant on a "Oh shit, make sure Aobaru -- and friends and allies -- has all the power and breadth and benefits he can to survive this" playstyle. (That, or, rapidly finding some kind of full-cure? Like the equivalent of the "Unshattered" option near the start of the game.)
Hm. This would probably be a lot easier for a Cursebearer that had the "Retinue" remittance. Because they'd be able to level their allies a lot faster, so they'd have some comfort zone against the Terminator.
[X] Armory of Night
[X] Over-Refined
The Praxis doesn't offer much utility to Hunger now that he has Nightmare Flight, it's pretty well all combat right now. So, given that my goal is the chill trip to the Realm that was promised, I want a complication that doesn't interfere terribly with peace.
Armory is absolutely amazing, as is every other choice offered here.
The cruel tragedy of Rihaku's design is that we cannot choose an option for both of our adopted daughters at once.
So, Adorie is just gonna have to settle for a trip to Paradise while we trick out Verschlengorge for Letrizia.
[X] Over-Refined
The Praxis doesn't offer much utility to Hunger now that he has Nightmare Flight, it's pretty well all combat right now. So, given that my goal is the chill trip to the Realm that was promised, I want a complication that doesn't interfere terribly with peace.
Armory is absolutely amazing, as is every other choice offered here.
The cruel tragedy of Rihaku's design is that we cannot choose an option for both of our adopted daughters at once.
So, Adorie is just gonna have to settle for a trip to Paradise while we trick out Verschlengorge for Letrizia.
Zampano
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Yes. The CBA was a result of Orm's wish. I haven't ever disputed that.
What I am disputing is the idea that Orm's wish activation was equivalent to a defensive wish. If you read TooSlow's post, it claims that:
This is not accurate. It equivocates between the in-universe consideration [what the Accursed thinks is in Hunger's best interests] and the out-of-universe consideration that Orm paid a lot of money and needed to eventually see the wish in action.TooSlow said:
TooSlow gains some important rhetorical benefits from characterizing this wish as 'defensive' but that is not strictly true. Any information about "activation conditions" is certainly conjecture, which is pretty rich in a post that accuses me of "making things up" to benefit the options I like.
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Given [what the Accursed thinks is in Hunger's best interests] was applying him to an Association explicitly made for helping Cursebearers survive, I think it's a fair thing to say that while that certainly isn't 1 to 1 equal to a defensive wish, it still follows the same ethos of increasing Hunger's survival rate in a rather direct manner.
That being said, I do recognize I'm making a bit of a stretch right now, and would understand if you disregarded this because of that.