Yes Wolfy, I did in fact read the option.
The thing is Hunger has already prioritized only the memories that were important to him the last time he did this. His current pool is basically 'only the important things' + 'two months in the Voyaging Realm'
So, what does he give up when he's already thrown out most of the junk back when he killed the Tyrant?
Plus, you know, all the random shit he did in between Tyrant and getting assassinated.

Like, even if we decided to delete 80% of shit that happened in Voyaging Realm we'd still have decent chunk of actually relevant stuff remaining. Mind, I don't expect Sundering to be merciful, but likewise I find any argument about "noooooo not the effing Catherino" to sound rather hollow. It's one of the things Hunger values the most so she's fine.
 
...hm. would it be possible to take a middle ground? Like, to Mostly pick the shroud-is-down thing, but to also sacrifice some of the unimportant stuff in the Voyaging Realm for that extra boost to capabilities? like the experience dealing with treacherous knights, the tiller worm, the ghostflame beast,information about form of rage- all sorts of stuff which is neither particularly important to future capabilities nor relevant emotionally?
 
Yeah, whatever happens, Hunger is not losing Catherine's memory, he already choose to not sacrifice them last time. He is extremely unlikely to sacrifice them here.
Honestly? I think its going to be put to a vote. i.e. Here's 10 kinds of things Hunger is giving up, pick 4 to keep if you spend all of your Arete kind of deal. And while I think Catherine has strong support I also think that she'll have stiff competition if her opponents are things like 'Praxis' or 'OaF'
I'm willing to bet money that Rihaku would allow us to pick between more memories and more power retained, so he can watch us dance.
Plus, you know, all the random shit he did in between Tyrant and getting assassinated.

Like, even if we decided to delete 80% of shit that happened in Voyaging Realm we'd still have decent chunk of actually relevant stuff remaining. Mind, I don't expect Sundering to be merciful, but likewise I find any argument about "noooooo not the effing Catherino" to sound rather hollow. It's one of the things Hunger values the most so she's fine.
That was a year at best, and lets call it totally useless and free to toss. That at best turns cutting 10 years and two months in half into cutting 11 years and two months in half. Not the best comparative gain even if it is helpful.
but what about our memories of neon genesis evangelion? our danny phantom memes???
pls don't hurt me this way
 
So, we all know that Following Through is quite expensive. But how expensive is it, actually?

Well, first thing to consider is that you actually want spend as many Arete as we can. We currently have upwards of 200 Arete invested into varies stuff(ignoring external stuff such as Haeliels favor or party member stuff) plus general efforts and picks. As such, each point of Arete will help us retain about 2.5~3 points of Arete. Additionally, each point will help preserve Hunger's self, which has pretty huge emotional value on its own. So while throwing away Arete on nothing hurts, overall its the best thing we can do right now.

It's not all bleak, however. Follow Through comes with a lot of value to short up our losses, including picks, Heroic Progression, Favor and not having to spend defensive wish. Overall, that would put general loss at about 50~70 Arete, depending on how much Arete we can amass to spend on Sundering. Severe cost, for sure, but at the same time this will streamline our build a lot, which does have decent amount of value on its own.

Of course, the true reward of Following True is less risk of permanently dying; or, for example, taking comparable amount of damage without being able to kill Procyon. At the end of the day, we could lose much more than 60 arete worth of stuff. Well, plus Rank and Blade, although I'm not sure how this works with Rank Advancements.
 
If on the other hand you are going for Shard, there is something to be said for Foe-Defeating Stance as well. It's basically perfectly suited to situations like these, and would in addition to that help you fight Armaments while you remain substantially weaker than them! You already have H-DS so it would "only" be 21 Arete and 0 picks!
Here's an old quote on Foe-Defeating Stance to raise some hope. This one was during the Shard of the Arcanist vote, by the way.
EDIT:
It's really a question of whether you want to go hard on Stances - All-Defeating is more generally applicable, while Foe-Defeating is best against strong enemies or unfavorable odds. One could say that Foe-Defeating Stance is actually superior!
More Foe-Defeating Stance quotes.
 
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On one hand, I dislike the winning option and the whole vote attached to it. On the other, since we already decided to pick a hilariously risky fight that risks both our companions and the armies of Nilfel, not to mention Hunger himself, I feel like Hunger should put his whole being into it, even if I am not the fan of the cost. I guess I'll sleep on it and decide later.
 
Man, just talking about the Arete loss from Follow Through seriously bums me out.

There's certainly parts of our build I don't particularly like, but losing like realistically 50% of over 200+ Arete invested in various advancements... The sheer value in fanworks, discussion and time (literal real-life months) that would be lost honestly stings to think about.

Can't really vote for that option even if it does seem safer. It's just way too huge a loss for me to stomach and I'm not really keen on causing people to feel like they wasted effort on the quest due to that.

I'm sure the Shattering Blow is probably less risky now, but taking that kind of hit to Hunger's development is too much, imo.
 
We decided to lose the chance to resurrect Catherine(the person most dear to Hunger) for Haelial-sempai's favour. Like as far as I am concerned the only way that decision story and narrative wise would be worth it if Hunger decides to Follow Through here and embrace Heroism fully.
Heroism isn't quite the same as martyrdom, though. And there's a reason Hunger wasn't offered the Doom of the Martyr.
I do think that wish was closer to a case of "when I have three wishes, and they'll all be for the power to save people - that's what winning is, and that's what Catherine charged me with". It's sad, but does kind of work.
 
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[X] Seize the Day

Clever Hunger is best Hunger. It wasn't mindless aggression that won him 11+ years of guerilla war with the Tyrant, and it won't work against Procyon either.

More to the point: I don't like the Shattering Blow. When I see a character's personality and identity degraded in the name of temporal victory, I get flashbacks to slapdash teenage fanfics. Author favoritism should enliven a story, not buoy it.
 
In addition to ego death, I rather not spend the next couple of builds votes raising Rank. This guy needs some variety in build votes.
 
"I'll make it to them," he said, red of his Ring blazing forth like a sun. "And I'll stand, here. Here, and tomorrow, and however many battles henceforth, no matter the odds, no matter the forces arrayed against me, until they are ripped from their thrones and put to the sword. That is what I am and I can be nothing less."

Ordinarily, I love the wounded warrior/broken blade aesthetic. I was very on board for Unshattered and was sad that it didn't win. But now that Hunger has been made whole, that isn't who he is any more. So when I think about this vote, this quote is the lens I look at it through. And it makes things pretty clear to me. If we win through Shroud or Seize, this is a triumphant, glorious sentiment, the Heroism overcoming all adversity, bearing the favour of Creation's Oriflamme in this reality and those beyond, all the way until we cast down the Hidden Ones. To make the cosmos compromise, rather than compromise his ideals.

And while we might have something similar with Shattering, these words become so much more tragic. How many times will he Shatter himself until he sees victory? Will there even be anything left of him in the end? That's a bleak future for Hunger and he deserves better. What did he become a Cursebearer for, if not that?
 
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And while we might have something similar with Shattering, these words become so much more tragic. How many times will he Shatter himself until he sees victory? Will there even be anything left of him in the end? That's a bleak future for Hunger and he deserves better. What did he become a Cursebearer for, if not that?
You could almost call it a bleak procession!

Here's my arguments after reviewing things:
Emotional: Mostly this scene here:
The Truth Manifest
He would still win this, Gisena knew. Somehow he would cut through and lay low the monster, no matter the price he had to pay.

But he should not have to pay it, not had she discerned the truth sooner and called for a temporary retreat. They had all of them grown overconfident, sheltering under the central pillar of Hunger's Rank. A single point of reliance, no matter how sturdily fortified, was vulnerable to the Apocryphal Curse.

Furiously Gisena's mind raced down futile pathways. She was the Nullity Sorceress. It was her duty to counter enemy mages. What would be left of Hunger if he burned his selfhood to strike true, shattering the Blade again? Was this his fate, a cycle of endless repetition, every Tyrant felled at the cost of his identity? She would not accept that.

It's been a little while, and a lot has happened, so it's easy to forget how close we came to defeat last time. Gisena was able to bail us out, but that's not happening again, here. It's going to hurt more than just Hunger and us questers if he is shattered again. Others have gone on at length abou this toll, so I'll leave it at that.

Mechanical:
Alright, time to explain you guys why you should vote for Follow Through. Sadly, we didn't get 6th Sign through, making this harder, but it is what it is!
  • While Follow Through does come with horrendous up front cost, it's also the must likely to succeed and, thus, least likely to fail. If you want to live long and grow strong, taking temporary setback is clearly better than having Procyon party-wipe us!
  • The above can't be stressed hard enough. Other options are very risky "meh, we can take it" that have higher chance of Procyon falling and everyone dying. If you are confident in our chances then by all means take it, but if, like me, you see this as ultimate fight of this quest in more way than one, do consider tanking the loss for victory. One of benefits of being Progression Cursebearer is that we can bounce back with mere investment of time, after all
  • Of course, the big consideration of Follow Through is cost - in terms of Arete, Advancements, Rank, our blade and Hunger himself
  • Arete is big one, of course. With ability to retain everything else with Arete expenditure, pouring as much as we can is the thing to do, although burning our hard earned resource on virtually nothing hurts. Still, it is what it is, and Follow Through does offer a Haeliel Favor point, which refunds 25 Arete we spend on this choice, subsiding cost by a half. As such, spending 50 Arete on preserving Hunger is more like spending 25 Arete - still painful, but it hurts less, for sure
  • While Hunger's memories and personality will take a hit, combination of good Arete investiture and our friends being there for us will help us bounce back this a lot. I'm bringing this up because there's a big ass group of people whining about muh suicide(while, ironically, voting for options that have bigger % to actually kill us!) when, in fact, we can recover
  • Now, Advancements are actually why I wrote this post. While on surface losing ~50% of everything we did so far hurts, in practice we actually have a lot of wiggle room here. We have a lot of Echos and Blood Advancements to burn if number of picks is the thing we let go, and if we need to lose pure value, we can tank losing Signs, Silver of Evening, Crimson Flare and so on. You can think of it as trimming the fat(except the fat is gold in this case). As long as we retain OaFs, Pillars and Cut Through it's fine
  • We would lose a lot(and I do mean a lot of value), but we'd streamline our build a lot, and we'd also get a ton of value between Procyon picks, Heroic Progression and Favor. We'd still be in net loss, but the point is that the loss is not as total as you might think!
  • Rank loss is sad(as is why i told you guys to get the 6th Sign) but we can get it back. More importantly, this entire sequence would change the focus of our build away from Rank anyway

Of course, while these points contextualize the price and explain why it's not as bad as your kneejerk reaction might make you believe, they also admit that the cost is quite high! Still, we knew what we were signing up where we choose to Hold The Line, so we should be ready to tank losses and make good choices.

I understand being confident in our chances against Procyon and desire to win it all, but not voting Follow Through is very dangerous. It's a course of action that might very well end up with Hunger's death. As such, please consider being prudent and voting Follow Through!

[X] Follow Through
Putting in the whole quote so I don't misconstrue Wolfy, they've made good points here and elsewhere in this discussion. We're looking at a cost of something like half our purchases and picks made so far, assuming a fair bit of additional arete generated before the payment is made. In addition we'd be paying the 41-50 arete we have banked which I'm speculating against. This cost is discounted by a point of Haeliel Favor, which is quite valuable and nearly an EFB by itself. Further, as Wolfy explained, we can retain a lot of power with careful choices. We can reclaim a viable build after Shatter, if lessened.

My concern is that a viable, lessened build is not enough.

Imagine if we had some sort of Terminator like opponent that grows as fast as Progression type Cursebearer and if that Terminator kills Aobaru we would be fucked by Apocryphal...oh wait.

Don't forget about the other problems we've bought along our way. I do want to emphasize that Hunger has grown massively since this Terminator was set loose. We've gained many EFBs and other powers besides. Shattering would put them back in the running even if you assume that Hunger has vastly outpaced their growth. While I would love to get killed by Dr. Apocalypse, I'd rather have a cool series of fights with him than a stomp.


If Hunger is cognizant that he is going to be Shattered, can we communicate important details like our future plans / the existence of the Shard of the Arcanist to our friends first? It might be some way of getting relevant info back even if Hunger doesn't personally identify with it.
I'm just quoting this because it's a great point. I'm sure Rihaku would include such a scene.


[X] His Shroud Was Down

I also support Foe-Defeating Stance, but Rihaku stated that we aren't spending any Arete until after this vote.
 
Putting in the whole quote so I don't misconstrue Wolfy, they've made good points here and elsewhere in this discussion. We're looking at a cost of something like half our purchases and picks made so far, assuming a fair bit of additional arete generated before the payment is made. In addition we'd be paying the 41-50 arete we have banked which I'm speculating against. This cost is discounted by a point of Haeliel Favor, which is quite valuable and nearly an EFB by itself. Further, as Wolfy explained, we can retain a lot of power with careful choices. We can reclaim a viable build after Shatter, if lessened.

My concern is that a viable, lessened build is not enough.
I think that one point has to be considered here - this price is warranted. At the end of the day, we are not pissing Advancements away for lulz, we are doing because that level of commitment is what is needed to defeat our foe. I want you all to consider what the sheer price of Following Through means for chances of trying to complete this challenge with no loss on our part. Or, I could quote the blurb:
A long shoot indeed.

One thing I keep stressing out is that Hunger can win with Shroud and still be forced to sacrifice same or even greater amount of himself without mitigating circumstances of Following Through. This is by no means an unlikely proposition. And despite all poetic waxing, I do think that having our character do anything but his absolute best with everything on the line would be rather bad. Hunger talked a lot. I would rather have him follow up on his bluster instead of going "meh, I can take it" and promptly getting smeared like a bug on a windshield.
 
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You're right that Shattering is safer. We may face loss of panoply or allies in the Shroud, perhaps even more than in Shattering.

A large part of my reaction is colored by the previous votes. I'm unwilling to choose this loss when I can choose to gamble, and have the loss inflicted upon me instead. That's not terribly reasonable of me!

We know our odds are poor with Shroud, and better with Shatter, but there are no guarantees to be had. I'd rather lean into the risk now that I have to live with it, instead of accepting defeat and paying the cost up front.

I do hope that in either case, we can take this as a lesson not to talk shit about the Apocryphal.
 
[X] His Shroud Was Down

Personally, I've just always found memory loss plots unbearable, and the concept deeply frightening. Reading about these sorts of things happening scares me.
 
A few things to consider about Follow Through.

First, the inverted build vote. We might have to vote after the Shattering Blow on what to keep from our various advancements, and that vote would be absolute hell. A lot of us are very invested in our favorite upgrades, and being forced into a fight over which to keep and which to discard would get divisive fast. I think the resulting argument could become very, very nasty, and that leads into my second point.

Shattering Blow doesn't just sacrifice Hunger's identity - it sacrifices the thread as well. There's a lot of people that are very, very put off by the Shattering Blow, who's participation in the thread might decrease or even disappear if Follow Through wins. And then the inverted build vote afterwards could drive away even more people as a result of the huge amount of salt such a vote would necessarily produce. We could lose a lot of participation if Follow Through wins, and for this quest in particular thread activity is very important.

In conclusion, I worry that Follow Through might cause enough OOC damage to kill the quest just as surely as Hunger actually dying. Maybe we'll handle the inverted build vote better then I think we will, or maybe Rihaku will just pick for us, but the concern about participation dropping because of salt over Follow Through is a real one I think.
 
Nilfel was not at risk from the rebublic, the Apocryphal mitigation that we had gotten from Adorie means that they wouldn't be at risk from this Apocryphal proc.
+/- Spare the Innocent: Can be trusted to oversee your Voyaging Realm conquests without the prospect of corruption or usurpation. Apocryphal Curse will ignore Realms so administered and target you directly
We just chose to use up a lesser defensive wish for no reason, we could have picked fall back or call up and returned with enough power to defeat the Armament at substantially less risk to ourselves and our companions but we ended up fighting a 5 pick for a reason that isn't even valid. We have spent 2 wishes on gaining power for this Apocryphal proc and still don't have enough power to deal with it, I'm certain that Hunger will end up dying before he gets his vengeance if he keeps our shitty decision making abilities.

whatever epilogue he might achieve would be totally in line with the aesthetic that has been built by us.
I hope not, Hunger would have had no hope of overcoming this proc if it wasn't for patreon rewards.
You're right that Shattering is safer. We may face loss of panoply or allies in the Shroud, perhaps even more than in Shattering.
Shattering is only safer if it kills the Armament in a single blow and killing it provides enough power to deal with the rest of the kill squad, otherwise Hunger will just be killed after he cripples himself.
 
I don't like shattering blow at all. In a different part of the academic year I'd slop as many words on the page as possible, asking you to think about how our current build has literally been paid for with the effort of Arete miners, and how shattering it explicitly renounces the build choices we made in the past.

I'd probably move to a clumsy list of basic literary tropes, because I don't really get semiotics / symbolism but I like the aesthetic of writers who are good at that kind of analysis.

Even if I had already included a wordy explanation of build details that everybody already knows, this would be the point where some kind of VBcode table reiterated those details.

Then I'd probably make either a personal jab at someone (and get surprised when they respond in kind) or a transparent reference to some other long running argument that I think I'm more likely to win.


##12,000 Words (counterfactually)


Maybe i'll still put together a post like that. But at the end of the day, my real reason for voting Shroud is that "I think the thread's done a good job at making a build and throwing it away with Shattering Blow before seeing it in action would be a real shame."
 
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We just chose to use up a lesser defensive wish for no reason, we could have picked fall back or call up and returned with enough power to defeat the Armament at substantially less risk to ourselves and our companions but we ended up fighting a 5 pick for a reason that isn't even valid. We have spent 2 wishes on gaining power for this Apocryphal proc and still don't have enough power to deal with it, I'm certain that Hunger will end up dying before he gets his vengeance if he keeps our shitty decision making abilities.
I think the apocryphal proc is more 'armament comes to attack hunter' then 'Armament comes to attack Nilfel', but the Curse isn't going to step in and make sure the Armament chases us immediately without harming Nilfel if we leave, especially if the Armament wouldn't be able to catch up before we'd return to kick its arse post-Pillars. The Spare The Innocent reads more like "apocryphal procs of the type 'X bad thing happens to nilfel' won't happen" then "no matter what shenanigans an Apocryphal Proc is causing, Nilfel will not be harmed."; If it was the second, and we just stood on the streets of nilfel forever, it would require a very specific type of foe to arrive without warning and transport us out of nilfel with no property damage, then begin the fight; or else we could avoid the proc by sitting in a box which nilfel owns and is magically immune to the effects of apocryphal procs as such.
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also, since the Apocryphal loves hearing people say 'curse those so-called interesting times'...
[X] say "I certainly love how interesting my life has been since I took up the Apocryphal curse! It's hardly a curse at all, it's so fun!". It definitely didn't think you liked it before, so maybe if you trick it into thinking you do, it'll leave you alone?
 
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