So you agree that Aggressive Research on an Evening Sign does not compromise our build due to loss of Rank. Neat!
The next question is whether the elevation along the ISH provides any mechanism by which Hunger can actually win the upcoming conflict with Procyon. Rank seems to intensify the abilities that you already have. Getting +Rank wouldn't let Adorie catch up to a mundane enemy with flight, even if she had dramatically higher Rank. How will Hunger's +ISH Rank allow him to pierce a deployed Shroud?
The value of a Sixth Sign is that it allows us to express power in a new way. I think that is an important consideration that anti-Research voters have been unable to rebut so far.
[X] Call Up
[X] Hold the Line
[X] Aggressive Research
I'm convinced by Zampano's reasoning. In fact, does the Silver defensive Rank Bonus stack with fully with OaF? If so, we won't even be disadvantaged at all even if we burn 1 Rank. If not, 0.28 disadvantage is significant, but far from insurmountable.
...but the abbreviation for "Once and Future" is OaF. Every time you write AoF my brain derails until I think through the context of your post. /Pendantry
I wasn't able to locate any WoG specifically about the effective Rank of Armaments, but the thread has been treating them as 10+ for as long as I can remember. Calling Procyon a Rank 10 enemy is probably somewhat optimistic, but let's start there.
Letrizia states explicitly that Armaments cap out at Rank 10 way back in the Fisher King threadmark when she's first explaining Rank, so Procyon is likely sitting at very near that threshold:
"Yup. Rank is usually measured from 1 to 10 in a hyper-logarithmic scale, though values above that should be possible. An Ereadhihr - an Armament - at full theoretical strength is Rank 10. No amount of physical force can so much as impair their actions!"
Onto more substantive matters, I am also throwing my lot in with
[X] Hold the Line
[X] Aggressive Research
for the following reasons:
1: 6th Sign > 1 Rank
As Wolfy and Zampano have already expounded upon at length, Hunger's current build offers a number of anti-Rank or Rank-adjacent effects that ameliorate any losses we take in pursuit of the higher Signs. In addition to HDS/Bastion greatly reducing Procyon's effective Rank advantage from insurmountable to merely superior, Hunger also benefits from ADS's ablative Ruin effects contesting any of the more esoteric vectors of attack the Armament possesses, Armor of Midnight largely negating direct physical damage, his fundamental nature as a Cursebearer allowing him to shrug off Procyon's Plenary Brand, etc. In short, Hunger is extremely well-equipped to deal with a wide range of hostile effects even without the direct application of Pressure, and these defenses should not be easily surmountable with only a ~0.3 Rank difference--and a 0.3 difference below the threshold of High Rank at that. As such, it is reasonable to conclude that the loss of 1 Rank will not incur that significant a disadvantage against Procyon, and will make optimal use of HDS/Bastion.
Likewise, I believe many readers are substantially underestimating the power of the higher Signs. In principle, there are three requirements we need for the 6th Sign to be worth the gamble Aggressive Research takes:
1: The Sign must have direct combat applications
2: It must have a sufficiently brief casting time to make use of it in the upcoming battle
3: It must provide some manner of esoteric or specialized ability that has superior utility against Procyon when compared to the general stat loss from Rank burning
This may seem a tall order, but note that both the 4th and 5th signs already satisfy all of these requirements: Deathly Star is enormously potent, difficult to defend against, rapidly castable, rank-adjacent, etc., and despite its cost Armor of Midnight is sufficiently powerful to level the playing field against Procyon almost by itself. Given the nigh-exponential growth in power that each consecutive Sign has demonstrated thus far, we can reasonably expect additional Signs to match or exceed the preceding tiers' in essentially every way, to the extent that [] Full Measure's optimal 7th Sign would be tantamount to instant victory against an Armament, regardless of Rank difference. Although I consider the latter too much of a gamble--and beyond that, too much of an inefficient use of resources--to be worthwhile, the 6th Sign should very likely be capable of offering some sort of, if not trump card, then at least ace-in-the-hole in this fight that will be well-worth widening Procyon's Rank advantage to a relatively meager 0.25.
2: [] Call Up is Still Risky
I admit to being somewhat confused as to why [] Call Up has obtained the support it has--it seems the worst of both worlds when compared to [] Hold the Line and [] Fall Back, as we would still be banking on uncovering something worthwhile in a relatively short time frame, while likely sacrificing any tactical advantages from holding the Walls of Myth, as well as the major rewards we might otherwise obtain from a successful [] Hold the Line. If questers really want to live by the Progression mantra of "live and grow strong," there is really no reason not to abuse the Realm of Evening with [] Fall Back, which will almost certainly net us enough picks and power to contest Procyon in a straight-up contest. If your objection is that risking the potential reputation loss and casualties from an occupation of Nilfel is not worthwhile, [] Call Up has a decent chance of leading to that outcome anyway. I know SV tends towards putting off potentially risky decisive actions for as long as possible, but in this case I feel ambivalence will only compromise our position further; if you feel unduly threatened by Procyon [] Fall Back is a much better choice.
3: Who Dares Wins
Criticize me for espousing a potentially Dying-Gang position all you want, but I believe that with the utility obtained from the 6th Sign Hunger will have a sufficiently high chance of defeating Procyon to make the risks worthwhile. Nothing we know of Procyon so far suggests it possesses any weaponry or abilities, magical or mundane, of sufficient caliber to pose an uncontestable threat to Hunger; with the possible exception of its Shroud, any advantages it possesses are matters of degree rather than fundamental capacity, which is what made the Vanreir, and to a lesser extent, the Augustine fights so dangerous. Granted, the aforementioned degree may be substantial in some cases, but as stated earlier Hunger has a sufficiently diverse Panoply that I am confident there will be at least one defensive measure available for any given vector of attack.
Likewise, this reckless, heroic decision is, for better or worse, entirely in line with Hunger's characterization thus far, especially after meeting Haeliel. We've not survived such endeavors as the Temple of the False Moon or blitzing the Tower for nothing, either--Hunger receives substantial bonuses to spur-of-the-moment actions such as [] Hold the Line, and by reacting immediately, we stand to maximize the benefits we get from such powerful constructions as the Walls of Myth. Consequently, I feel [] Hold the Line is the most character-consistent, resource-efficient, and morally palatable of the three choices.
II: 6th Sign Tactics
In keeping with my vote, I'd like to propose a possible avenue of research for Hunger to follow in pursuit of a maximally effective 6th Sign. While from an OOC perspective we've essentially chosen the five Signs we possess thus far in advance of their applicable moment in-story, from an IC perspective Hunger has already noted the "wishing well" functionality of the Cloak of Sky, in the sense that at a critical juncture it is more likely to provide him with an ability relevant to his current situation. Consequently if Hunger focuses on a particular aspect we believe will be effective in this fight, we can hopefully pull an Eidolon and pick out a desirable Sign--or at least a desirable flavor of Sign--from the Empyrean's broad domain of sorcerous abilities.
Against Procyon, I believe this maximally effective domain will be Dominion, or something near to it, for the following reasons:
1: As previously noted by others, Procyon is named after a star, and one located in the so-called Winter Hexagon at that, thus giving it a connection to two elements of our Panoply, and most critically to the Evening Sky which we have focused so heavily on. While this is more likely than not a convenient coincidence, given that Procyon is the Plenary Armament, such impressions are likely far more salient than they would be for other Armaments, as names, titles, histories, etc. form the core of what the Plenary Brand is.
2: The majority of Hunger's Panoply deals with rulership and control in some way, from Fisher King and Sword in the Stone for the Blade, the controlling aspects of the Ring, the Tears of Winter being crown jewels, the Cloak of Sky having dominion over all the Empyrean, etc. Indeed, even Haeliel's angelic handkerchief could be interpreted as a mandate of heaven, delivered from on high in support of Hunger and his aspirations; this makes rulership and control a conceptually potent vector for any Sign to draw from.
3: As a Praehihr, Hunger occupies a privileged position in Foremost culture, and thus a privileged position when dealing with Armaments, which provides yet another inroad by which Hunger can assert--or at least claim--authority over Procyon.
By its very nature as the Plenary Armament, Procyon cannot help but challenge Hunger's claims to these sources of authority; simply existing broadcasts its essential nature to all who lay eyes upon it, and if that nature overlaps with Hunger's domains of control yet acts in conflict with them, then it is Hunger's duty as ruler to bring it into line. We've previously seen that Armaments are vulnerable to these kinds of metaphysical shenanigans, as when Augustine grabbed the (admittedly weakened) Versch in a similar manner by exploiting the fact that the latter was technically under Hunger's control, as the Opalescent Tower was similarly under hers, so it's likely that this is a reasonable vector of attack against Procyon.
Consequently, my plan would be for Hunger to focus on acquiring a 6th Sign focused on subduing, impeding, or otherwise damaging entities that come into conflict with any of Hunger's domains of rule, and (of course) especially the sky. Helpfully, we've already seen an Evening Sky EFB that has a very similar effect all the way back in the Temple Arc:
Evening Sky: Heavenly Tomb [Conjunctional: The Ring of Power, The Forebear's Blade] - 25 Arete (1 pick)
No paradise is this,
no splendid Realm of Evening's kiss;
but its colder distaff face -
a prison spun from time and space.
The heavens are vault and spectacle, vastness and sea; entombed among those countless points of light are elder beings and heralds of strange design. Trapped upon a pale green speck of planetary earth, it can be hard to grasp the enormity of that perilous ocean surrounding, but it would be unwise to forget: earth and sea and sky were never equals. The sky is more than a window and darkness, the stars more than the natural lighting of the cosmos. Beyond the far reaches of mortal grasp lie wonders and horrors as to remake the philosophies of man, contained by mere distance from their revelatory conquest.
*Walls of Night: ++++++++++Protection, ignore Protection penalties.
*Endless Depths: Massively increases the effective health and health regeneration of the Evening Sky before depletion.
*Imprisoner's Might: Grants immense but highly specific power over the interior Cloak of Evening, permitting the effects below:
*Enemies defeated completely may be consigned to the Heavenly Tomb, absorbed into the Evening Sky & frozen in the bleak nothingness beneath time and space. There is no limit to the number of foes that can be so contained; entire civilizations can be preserved in the amber of time.
*You may also store and retrieve inanimate objects so long as they are under your control.
*An enemy once trapped in the Heavenly Tomb becomes categorically incapable of ever defeating the wearer again. They may be released for rehabilitation, further punishment or annihilation at the wearer's leisure. Note however that this is not an absolute guard; those trapped are not preventing from resisting or inconveniencing the wearer, merely from ever defeating him.
*If you have Pillars of Creation, you may within the Realm of Evening unfreeze and interact with defeated foes from a position of perfect safety, employing the implements of the Realm of Evening as you please.
*Time and training may expand and revise these effects with no effective upper limit, including esoteric imprisonment effects such as the sealing of aspects or ideas.
While I doubt we'd be able to simply banish Procyon to some prison-dimension, at the very least I could imagine such a 6th Sign greatly interfering with its ability to bring its Rank or stats to bear against us. Likewise, what is its greatest strategic asset, its Shroud, but an expression of dominion and control? Such a 6th Sign would likely be extremely potent against the Shroud, since its sole function is to lay claim to a region in Procyon's name. With luck, this strategy could allow Hunger to greatly weaken, negate, or simply ignore Procyon's primary advantage over us. Similarly, this strategy has the advantage that, should it work, Procyon will have essentially no recourse against it--it can't remove Hunger's titles as King of Winter, Praehihr, wielder of the Cloak of Sky, etc., nor can it stop being Procyon and thus broadcasting its opposition to us to everyone in sight. By attacking it on an ontological level like this, this flavor of Sign will leave the Armament with two options: Submit to our authority or be destroyed, either outcome being good for us.
As a final note, given that our Geas task requires claiming rule over large swathes of an interstellar empire, this 6th Sign would no doubt give substantial returns in the long run as well, and would have excellent synergy with our other rule-enhancing effects like Triumphal Gleam, Fisher King, Sword in the Stone should we acquire it, etc., and so could continue to be useful beyond this single fight, which I had seen concerns about before.
Hopefully this line of reasoning isn't too crazy, given how much Rihakuquests make use of this conceptual-linkage kind of thing--if reasonable, I believe something like this would be our best bet for the 6th Sign.
Can someone explain me which part of this very simple abc logic is hard to grasp? Because I am repeating this very same thing for number of pages now and I have folks still going hurr durr on me.
"I keep repeating my argument to other people, why do they keep repeating their argument to me?!"
I don't think your idea is without merit. You could be right. But on the balance we fundamentally disagree on how important Rank is and what it does. I just think Rank is much more significant than you do.
I could be totally wrong in the end, but I'm really not convinced by the way you regurgitate your arguments for pages and get frustrated with us.
...wait, do we know how high of a functional rank we have with that boost, on the normal scale? see, this is the problem with mixing systems of measurement. ISH is a lot more compressed then the +s system, and I assume the rank system too, but how high of a rank is the +0.2 ISH boost? +1 ISH to speed is a lot... but rank gets really compressed at the top end, since 10 is 'literally no amount of physical force can stop it'. if Rank doesn't become more compressed faster then ISH- in the sense that +N on the infinite singularity husk is a bigger multiplier in normal terms when you're at ISH Y then at ISH Y/2- then I would think the ISH boost would bring us to around 10 rank or more, but I don't have a clue. or is that ISH-boost already accounted for in the various descriptions of our Rank for tasks like blood manipulation and warfare, etc?
...wait, do we know how high of a functional rank we have with that boost, on the normal scale? see, this is the problem with mixing systems of measurement. ISH is a lot more compressed then the +s system, and I assume the rank system too, but how high of a rank is the +0.2 ISH boost? +1 ISH to speed is a lot... but rank gets really compressed at the top end, since 10 is 'literally no amount of physical force can stop it'. if Rank doesn't become more compressed faster then ISH- in the sense that +N on the infinite singularity husk is a bigger multiplier in normal terms when you're at ISH Y then at ISH Y/2- then I would think the ISH boost would bring us to around 10 rank or more, but I don't have a clue. or is that ISH-boost already accounted for in the various descriptions of our Rank for tasks like blood manipulation and warfare, etc?
We do not know. The global ISH boost is new, as of the previous threadmark. We have seen ISH boosts for physical stats before, but never for abilities like Rank afaik.
Wolfy is treating each 0.1 ISH (Rank) as equivalent to +1 Rank, iirc. I suspect that the conversion is not quite that straightforward.
There are pluses and minuses to have access to ISH boosts already. Much like how our Rank far exceeds our physical parameters, I worry that improving along the ISH might inflate our opinion of our abilities. If two identical characters are compared and one has +ISH then the boosted one should win. Sure. But suppose that one character has speed 30 with ISH (speed) 1 and another character has Speed 5 with ISH (speed) 2. Conceptual potency behind your actions doesn't seem like it should be enough to change the nature of those actions.
For the fight with Procyon, we need an actual method to crack open the shell and slurp up the squishy innards. Our high Rank parameter might improve our skill and narrative momentum but without the proper tools there's just no way to get the job done. The best chef in the world still needs a knife or a rock to open up an oyster.
I think that the Sixth Sign can be that tool, whereas 1 point of Rank is more like an extra year at culinary school
(Trainwreck posts like this one are why I don't argue by analogies lmao)
Sacrificing rank for signs is dumb because there's no guarantee the signs will help and it's very likely the ideal sign for this situation won't be Evening.
Sacrificing rank for signs is dumb because there's no guarantee the signs will help and it's very likely the ideal sign for this situation won't be Evening.
Reviewing the plans which got us here, should we factor the -Mental Stability that Hunger took into our decision?
I can't really quantify it. My immediate leap is to think Hunger's danger and success estimates are less accurate than usual, but -Stability can take many forms, and I'm rather biased.
After a number of good arguments I'm actually beginning to warm up to Death Hold The Line. There have been some tactics, and I now believe the 6th Sign could make the difference.
My motives are still impure, as I see this as the only way to get the peaceful downtime which I wanted in the first place. Fall back is another training montage for sure.
There are pluses and minuses to have access to ISH boosts already. Much like how our Rank far exceeds our physical parameters, I worry that improving along the ISH might inflate our opinion of our abilities. If two identical characters are compared and one has +ISH then the boosted one should win. Sure. But suppose that one character has speed 30 with ISH (speed) 1 and another character has Speed 5 with ISH (speed) 2. Conceptual potency behind your actions doesn't seem like it should be enough to change the nature of those actions.
For the fight with Procyon, we need an actual method to crack open the shell and slurp up the squishy innards. Our high Rank parameter might improve our skill and narrative momentum but without the proper tools there's just no way to get the job done. The best chef in the world still needs a knife or a rock to open up an oyster.
I'm not sure that's entirely the case. Ber was able to preform attacks capable of harming the physical substance of an Armament, since Ber was attacking it and was assigned to kill it by a being presumably capable of knowing on such matters. Normally, an Armament, being Rank 10, would survive any quantity of purely physical force, but if the rank is equalized, Bers blue magic was apparently sufficient. I'm pretty sure Hunger is Way beyond Ber in physical parameters by this point, since we killed him before he could react, and that was after he leveled pretty far and turned into a fish-barnacle. I'm not sure what a blade-wind actually... is... so I don't know if it has enough physical force, but I imagine Deathly Star is stronger then low-level scrub Bers' final sword wave thing. So I think Deathly Star would suffice to physically destroy the Armament, if we remove all relevance of Rank from the equation.
...which leaves the question of how much Rank we functionally possess. Since fighting an Armament gives enough picks that I'd assume doing so is suicidal, I suppose our functional Rank can't be much higher then 10 for the purpose of using Deathly Star. That, or one of my earlier assumptions is flawed; maybe it's not that scrub-Ber has enough physical force, so much as that Ber is using RPG-battle-magic and it doesn't have a system for damage resistance?
So... If I were told 'we're fighting a Rank 10 Armament, we have Rank of 9.something for War and +0.2 on the Infinite Singularity Husk after that, Ber could damage armament-skin and we've outscaled him tremendously', I would think 'Eh, we can probably take'm.' But, since I've been told 'we're fighting a Rank 10 Armament, we have Rank of 9.something for War and +0.2 on the Infinite Singularity Husk after that, Ber could damage armament-skin and we've outscaled him tremendously. Note that defeating the Armament grants 5 picks.', my conclusion is instead 'it looks like we can take'm, so clearly I'm missing something because we've practically been told this path is suicidal.'.
While he was at it he could grant his companions a sympathetic blood-bond to himself, such that it would be infeasible to physically harm or slay them without overwhelming the regenerative power of his Ring.
Oh dang, this is a pretty neat bonus to add. I wonder if we've got the tech necessary to expand and empower this blood bond? It would do a lot to improve their survivability if we could do stuff like know their location and be summoned by threats to their well being. Perhaps if we unlock the Ruling Ring, we'd be able to provide holistic improvements or allow them to always benefit from our Rank regardless of distance. And of course, I'm sure Essence Ring would really let us do some wacky stuff.
If Fall Back isn't an option anymore, I guess I might as well bite the bullet. I like the benefits of victory for Hold the Line more than for Call Up, and if my defensive wish is getting used up either way I might as well go with the one that gets me the most for it.
I can't lie, my main opposition to hold the line (aside from the risk) is the painfulness of getting it without having the ability to purchase at least Once and Future 4. It feels like we'd just be letting all those picks go to waste unless we used them on an otherwise impossible to obtain advancement. I'm sure Rihaku will offer some neat 5 pick Advancements and perhaps even an EFB or two in the mix but it's just not the same.
I can't lie, my main opposition to hold the line (aside from the risk) is the painfulness of getting it without having the ability to purchase at least Once and Future 4. It feels like we'd just be letting all those picks go to waste unless we used them on an otherwise impossible to obtain advancement. I'm sure Rihaku will offer some neat 5 pick Advancements and perhaps even an EFB or two in the mix but it's just not the same.
Yeah, that's the point. If OaF 4 requires a 4 pick fight to obtain, this could be one of our only chances to get it since the thread is generally pretty risk averse. With that in mind, not having it unlocked is pretty sad given how incredibly powerful it would be for us. OaF 5 is a pipe dream but man would it be cool. If only we had some way of storing the potential power of the fights we got into, though I guess that might be against the nature of the Hunger Ring. Perhaps it's something we could work on with Pillars.
If Fall Back isn't an option anymore, I guess I might as well bite the bullet. I like the benefits of victory for Hold the Line more than for Call Up, and if my defensive wish is getting used up either way I might as well go with the one that gets me the most for it.
This is what "taking responsibility" actually looks like. Anyway @Aabcehmu, you had a huge hand in getting us shitton of EFBs with your patronage so I don't have anything against your decision, but what is your opinion on the unused 30 Arete we have in the bank.
This is the shit that keeps me up at night and the plans to get back at Zampano for making fun of my analysis. The only thing that could help us right now is Praxis EFB, but do we have any guarantee we can actually purchase it in this fight?
Yeah, that's the point. If OaF 4 requires a 4 pick fight to obtain, this could be one of our only chances to get it since the thread is generally pretty risk averse. With that in mind, not having it unlocked is pretty sad given how incredibly powerful it would be for us. OaF 5 is a pipe dream but man would it be cool. If only we had some way of storing the potential power of the fights we got into, though I guess that might be against the nature of the Hunger Ring. Perhaps it's something we could work on with Pillars.
With how Seraph's Favor works, we only need a three pick fight to get the benefit of OaF IV. Technically, we only have OaF I fight now, but we are getting the abilities of OaF II from Seraph's favor. With a two pick fight we can purchase OaF II and start getting the benefit of OaF III, ect. We will only need a four pick fight when we are trying to get the benefits of OaF V, which seems a bit far off when we haven't even purchased OaF II, or unlocked the ability to buy OaF III.
