A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
We can still mine for Arete, and use it to generate extra picks (which is mechanically represented as giving it superhuman effort).
Study the blade x1 is RNG and the bad kind. Best case scenario - 3 Praxis picks and still need 12 more Arete for RoB. The probability for 1-2 Praxis picks is 66 percent. Blade x2 is a lot better value - only 11 percent of worst case scenario (you can see the probabilities here) and probability of only needeing maximum of 12 Arete for RoB is 88 percent. Meanwhile blade x1 is 33% of minimum needing 12 Arete and 66% of needing 25. Even the Curse of Anti-Synergy is baffled at these numbers that we are hoping for.
EDIT: If you want to go for the 1/3 chance choose blade x2 - it has 1/3 chance of only needing 2 Praxis points (7 Arete) to get RoB.
EDIT: If you want to go for the 1/3 chance choose blade x2 - it has 1/3 chance of only needing 2 Praxis points (7 Arete) to get RoB.
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Just stating my position on Arete expenditures here, which are probably going to be unpopular, but I'm not keen on spending on Signs or Graces in the near future. Both magics merely offer 'power' and 'utility' effects and are honestly nowhere near as interesting to me as other, more compelling Advancements that we are more certain of.
Remember when Ring used to be the artifact closest to getting an EFB? I remember those days, halcyon moments of lore, before the HYPE of Cut Through and mad greed for ever more magics. Ah, how the Ring has languished, once the second artifact to get an EFB, now fallen behind both the Cloak and Blade with both artifacts having 3 (!!!) EFBs to its 1.
I think pursuing power at this juncture is not particularly important, but neither is aiming for relaxation. Hunger is now in a position of strength, with time-skip utility and 'safety' relatively secure as a result of picking up Pillars, so what we should angle towards is more potential-type Advancements. In that respect, I'm much more keen to acquire Ruling Ring and its absurd Progression ++ multiplier, though it'll probably be at a 7 Arete surcharge as a result of not getting even a single Dominion (aside from Blood, obviously), which would unlock both interesting avenues of improvement and setting-relevant lore.
Let us not forget, a Ring War might still be started. Asterios yet lives after all, and who knows when he might emerge into the world, presumably departing from the Labyrinth. (Perhaps this Labyrinth may be a shard of the Labyrinth Empire?) It should be in our best interests to safeguard ourselves against the possibility of the Ring's usurpation, particularly given that we are now so powerful that we might be able to enforce our Rule more effectively.
And of course, Praxis Advancements unlock an entirely different scale of power and potential. On that point, 'settling' as it were for basic power multipliers like Refinement of Battle might not be the best choice, given our martial strength as at currently anyway. Conceptual effects like Refinement of Place are definitely interesting, as a more moderate expenditure, but the true prize lays beyond...
Imperial Refinement elevates the blade of our will, the Praxis by which the Accursed implements his ambition, to a truly cosmic level of potential. I do not doubt that such a pure Advancement would allow us to do much, much more and affect reality both more deeply and broadly. Accessing the Logos would have allowed us enough power to match even a Cultivator with the power of All Paths; what tremendous puissance would the Imperial Praxis of the Sword allow us to attain?
Perhaps my reasoning is too hopeful, too optimistic, my perspective clouded by the blue of the Praxis. But I must still persist in maintaining my alignment with my very first choice in this quest, to once more grasp onto The Sword that Ends the World. Surely, that is a worthwhile pursuit, no matter the cost.
Remember when Ring used to be the artifact closest to getting an EFB? I remember those days, halcyon moments of lore, before the HYPE of Cut Through and mad greed for ever more magics. Ah, how the Ring has languished, once the second artifact to get an EFB, now fallen behind both the Cloak and Blade with both artifacts having 3 (!!!) EFBs to its 1.
I think pursuing power at this juncture is not particularly important, but neither is aiming for relaxation. Hunger is now in a position of strength, with time-skip utility and 'safety' relatively secure as a result of picking up Pillars, so what we should angle towards is more potential-type Advancements. In that respect, I'm much more keen to acquire Ruling Ring and its absurd Progression ++ multiplier, though it'll probably be at a 7 Arete surcharge as a result of not getting even a single Dominion (aside from Blood, obviously), which would unlock both interesting avenues of improvement and setting-relevant lore.
Let us not forget, a Ring War might still be started. Asterios yet lives after all, and who knows when he might emerge into the world, presumably departing from the Labyrinth. (Perhaps this Labyrinth may be a shard of the Labyrinth Empire?) It should be in our best interests to safeguard ourselves against the possibility of the Ring's usurpation, particularly given that we are now so powerful that we might be able to enforce our Rule more effectively.
And of course, Praxis Advancements unlock an entirely different scale of power and potential. On that point, 'settling' as it were for basic power multipliers like Refinement of Battle might not be the best choice, given our martial strength as at currently anyway. Conceptual effects like Refinement of Place are definitely interesting, as a more moderate expenditure, but the true prize lays beyond...
Imperial Refinement elevates the blade of our will, the Praxis by which the Accursed implements his ambition, to a truly cosmic level of potential. I do not doubt that such a pure Advancement would allow us to do much, much more and affect reality both more deeply and broadly. Accessing the Logos would have allowed us enough power to match even a Cultivator with the power of All Paths; what tremendous puissance would the Imperial Praxis of the Sword allow us to attain?
Perhaps my reasoning is too hopeful, too optimistic, my perspective clouded by the blue of the Praxis. But I must still persist in maintaining my alignment with my very first choice in this quest, to once more grasp onto The Sword that Ends the World. Surely, that is a worthwhile pursuit, no matter the cost.
Imperial Praxis starts to overtake Royal only after few Geas worlds, Rihaku confirmed it. Basically if we have 25 Arete to spend and the other options are bad - sure, but at the moment it is not something that will actually help us.
Yeah, we talked about it, but at this point it's more realistic to get entire RR as 25 arete buy rather than somehow finding 4 picks to get it piecemeal.
I don't agree with notion that we don't need power and utility - ultimately, we will keep running into issues, and we need power and ability to leverage it effectively to solve them. Our primary goal* is, in fact, to get enough power and utility to get us in position where we can afford long term potential picks. Fact that we were capable of getting Pillars is a great testament of us doing well, and it's undoubtely the best tool we could hope going forward. Likewise, we were capable of majorly mitigating our Curses, especially Decimator, which is another long term concern.
However, the amount of "current power/utility" we have is not perfect, in so far that we will at some point get more. As such, we need to have steady and consistent increase in power while getting potential based picks in the meanwhile. Needless to say, two Signs represent another big jump, which means that we are free to be greedy and get Ruling Ring before Fisher King.
I do like idea of getting Imperial Praxis - I've argued that it's ultimate "I win" move we can make for being able to get to Hidden Masters. Still, I would prefer if we managed to get Ruling Ring before we proc Pillars, and getting Signs would make that more feasible.
*some would say that our primary goal is not dying, but as everyone who plays rougelikes can attest, merely surviving first level without setting up your run just means that you get ground down in later rounds
I don't agree with notion that we don't need power and utility - ultimately, we will keep running into issues, and we need power and ability to leverage it effectively to solve them. Our primary goal* is, in fact, to get enough power and utility to get us in position where we can afford long term potential picks. Fact that we were capable of getting Pillars is a great testament of us doing well, and it's undoubtely the best tool we could hope going forward. Likewise, we were capable of majorly mitigating our Curses, especially Decimator, which is another long term concern.
However, the amount of "current power/utility" we have is not perfect, in so far that we will at some point get more. As such, we need to have steady and consistent increase in power while getting potential based picks in the meanwhile. Needless to say, two Signs represent another big jump, which means that we are free to be greedy and get Ruling Ring before Fisher King.
I do like idea of getting Imperial Praxis - I've argued that it's ultimate "I win" move we can make for being able to get to Hidden Masters. Still, I would prefer if we managed to get Ruling Ring before we proc Pillars, and getting Signs would make that more feasible.
*some would say that our primary goal is not dying, but as everyone who plays rougelikes can attest, merely surviving first level without setting up your run just means that you get ground down in later rounds
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- Location
- Pindorama
I mean, Intensive Research doesn't actually use any Arete; so if you don't feel inclined to spend on either Signs or Graces, it hardly troubles that! We have little need for something like Imperial Refinement right now, while the leads the Signs may provide to mage extraction could be much more pressing! If we vote Praxis we will definitely spend Arete, and do so for thing we might not even need. But getting Signs here would get us 26 Arete of value for a single greater challenge ahead; hard not to take!
I don't think this vote conflicts with the Praxis necessarily, since it basically preserves any Arete we still have. Depending on what we are offered in the future saving might be wise, and Research doesn't conflict with any of that. It's something very flexible that could work with any approach we choose in the future. It's pretty great.
I don't think this vote conflicts with the Praxis necessarily, since it basically preserves any Arete we still have. Depending on what we are offered in the future saving might be wise, and Research doesn't conflict with any of that. It's something very flexible that could work with any approach we choose in the future. It's pretty great.
Inefficient spending is a pain easily soothed by being rich. I wouldn't like it until we did it, then I'd probably forget the loss immediately.
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Study the Blade
I'll take the compromise.
I won't mind if Research wins, it really does hit most of the notes we need. I'm just a bit to cowardly to pitch in for a bigger Apocryphal proc.
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Study the Blade
I'll take the compromise.
I won't mind if Research wins, it really does hit most of the notes we need. I'm just a bit to cowardly to pitch in for a bigger Apocryphal proc.
- Location
- a place
I think it's mainly Sten and a few other former Ancients, who even with his Soul Evocation weakened was strong enough that it was implied he could have taken down Armor Prototype bonded Mizuku when it was said he would have to resort to killing him rather then saving the kid when the idea of bringing him to handle it while we fought the rotbeast came up. That same armor prototype would have been able to do significant damage to the sovereignty, if not destroy it all on his own, whereas Mizuku thought it'd be enough to let him save his people from the rotbeast when he first stumbled upon it.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
This is a good reminder for me that the rules of Rihakuverse basically enforce monarchy. The benefits of cooperation for people who band together are often outweighed by a single individual of utmost power. It's the opposite of the Superman problem: only someone with extreme punching ability can promise enough safety against the wilderness to found or maintain a society.
It will be neat to see how the Human Sphere undermines that dynamic that we've seen in the fantasy milieu. With Armor Prototypes, there's an implied R&D department that has to devise each new version. Large groups of scientists might be able to pool their insights and get agglomeration and scale economies that mages don't have access to. After all, the scientists also need a production base of factories and mines and shipping in order to implement each new idea. By contrast, a mage that comes up with a new spell can usually cast that spell immediately. There are fewer advantages for a team of mages than for a team of scientists.
(Without Philosopher's wreath, that is. RIP.)
Having a vote update titled 'precipitous span' is so reassuring... it can only mean good things for the future!
As usual, I have trouble deciding which vote combination I want. OTOH, it has been said several times that Hunger needs to relax and take some time off from doing insanely dangerous things. But how am I supposed to commit to that when we're offered so much value for a little Mental Stability? Selling your sanity for power just means that what little of it you have left gets increasingly valuable and can be sold for more later! Basic economics.
But then I start thinking about what exactly could hide behind an innocuous phrase like 'Neglect to properly maintain your position abreast of all Curses' and why it would give -Mental Stability. Decimator is on stand-by and Geas isn't a Curse that needs constant attention, so those two can be ruled out. The added % to Apocryphal difficulty likely means that we ignore the lead-up to the next Apocryphal proc, but it's also possible that we let the Doom off its leash for a while, which could indirectly cause the proc and make it worse. -Mental Stability isn't good news either way, because it takes something truly extraordinary to do that to Hunger. Not sure I want to find out what it'll be this time.
Still, not taking any power options at all this time would rankle. It's not often that we're effectively offered free Arete and picks! And my inner completionist rebels against the idea of taking Intensive Research without both Consolidate Power and Regency, because that's enough value to almost override my many concerns about the Strain. Getting two Signs, a ton of +s to Adorie relationship and Rank, prosperity for all our conquered lands, possibly even more Rank for Hunger... yeah, I can see why the combination is popular. And strangely enough I didn't see many arguments about the necessity of Regency for our future plans - without it Adorie apparently won't count as ruling our territories, which in turn means that Apocrypha will still target them.
...Right, there's also the Gisena option, but there's like two people voting for it. Only Dungeoneering has less on account of us being too scared of Shard taking us to task for killing her daughter. Funnily enough they're both options with the clearest path towards solving our current problem. Maybe we're hoping Gisena will later produce a solution without us having to put in any work again? It worked once already after all.
So, to sum it up, I'm a bit scared of what the Strain could represent and want Hunger to relax more, but I also don't want to completely miss out on the opportunities presented here. I guess a compromise is in order? And lo and behold, one of the more popular combinations has both Sightseeing and Praxis. Blue and Green is the Balancebro combination, right? And Sightseeing even gives +Wis and +Mental Stability! Considering we can use Arete to buff Praxis Study, it's not like we'll come out of it without any additional power. And while not getting more Praxis picks for 'free' sucks, not getting Willpower maluses feels kind of good too.
Thus:
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Study the Blade
As usual, I have trouble deciding which vote combination I want. OTOH, it has been said several times that Hunger needs to relax and take some time off from doing insanely dangerous things. But how am I supposed to commit to that when we're offered so much value for a little Mental Stability? Selling your sanity for power just means that what little of it you have left gets increasingly valuable and can be sold for more later! Basic economics.
But then I start thinking about what exactly could hide behind an innocuous phrase like 'Neglect to properly maintain your position abreast of all Curses' and why it would give -Mental Stability. Decimator is on stand-by and Geas isn't a Curse that needs constant attention, so those two can be ruled out. The added % to Apocryphal difficulty likely means that we ignore the lead-up to the next Apocryphal proc, but it's also possible that we let the Doom off its leash for a while, which could indirectly cause the proc and make it worse. -Mental Stability isn't good news either way, because it takes something truly extraordinary to do that to Hunger. Not sure I want to find out what it'll be this time.
Still, not taking any power options at all this time would rankle. It's not often that we're effectively offered free Arete and picks! And my inner completionist rebels against the idea of taking Intensive Research without both Consolidate Power and Regency, because that's enough value to almost override my many concerns about the Strain. Getting two Signs, a ton of +s to Adorie relationship and Rank, prosperity for all our conquered lands, possibly even more Rank for Hunger... yeah, I can see why the combination is popular. And strangely enough I didn't see many arguments about the necessity of Regency for our future plans - without it Adorie apparently won't count as ruling our territories, which in turn means that Apocrypha will still target them.
...Right, there's also the Gisena option, but there's like two people voting for it. Only Dungeoneering has less on account of us being too scared of Shard taking us to task for killing her daughter. Funnily enough they're both options with the clearest path towards solving our current problem. Maybe we're hoping Gisena will later produce a solution without us having to put in any work again? It worked once already after all.
So, to sum it up, I'm a bit scared of what the Strain could represent and want Hunger to relax more, but I also don't want to completely miss out on the opportunities presented here. I guess a compromise is in order? And lo and behold, one of the more popular combinations has both Sightseeing and Praxis. Blue and Green is the Balancebro combination, right? And Sightseeing even gives +Wis and +Mental Stability! Considering we can use Arete to buff Praxis Study, it's not like we'll come out of it without any additional power. And while not getting more Praxis picks for 'free' sucks, not getting Willpower maluses feels kind of good too.
Thus:
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Study the Blade
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
Hm. No takers for just Intensive+Consolidate. So the choice looks like it's going to come down to the full Intensive combo, and whatever survives consolidation between Sightseeing+Praxis and Sightseeing+Mentor.
Of those three options, I think I'd be most ok with full Intensive or Mental Stability+Praxis. With that in mind...
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Study the Blade
Boosting Sightseeing+Praxis, so that it's more likely to come down to that vs Full Intensive, both options I think are good in their own ways.
Of those three options, I think I'd be most ok with full Intensive or Mental Stability+Praxis. With that in mind...
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Study the Blade
Boosting Sightseeing+Praxis, so that it's more likely to come down to that vs Full Intensive, both options I think are good in their own ways.
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I mean, if we roll hot we can get some nice 12 Arete Praxis advancement for just 2 Arete, if we roll shit we just get Shatter The Pane. It's nice.
Of course, the actual issue with milquetoast compromise is that a) you don't do anything about extraction, while Signs at least pretend to care and, more importantly b) it doesn't set up Adorie as a regent, this ensuring complications in future. Sure we get some freebies and stuff, but we just procrastinate on actual issues we should be solving before going to Voyaging City.
That's the thing, Adorie stack solves a lot of other issues too. You get stronger next proc, but you also reduce attack surface for all future procs too. You lose some Mental Stability, but you reduce the need for us to intervene to defend Temple or Soverginity in future. You tie your loose ends, hopefully get Sign we need for extraction, we bring our house in order, and then we move on.
And that's what makes Adorie option so good. Not only we get value(and I'm sure we've impressed how much value there's up for grabs), but unlike virtually every other option, we actually accomplish a lot of real work too.
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Well, it's risky, but on the other hand the ablative armor thing is pretty good for ensuring Hunger & co's personal safety if we disregard moral concerns. Since Hunger himself has little idea that Adorie can shield his lands from Apocrypha (unless Gisena gives spoilers), he won't be personally responsible if it happens, that'll be on us. Ofc Hunger will rush to the Voyaging Realm as soon as he hears about disaster hitting them, but the solution to that is simple too - just tell them we'll get back to them once we're finished with our actual Task and ignore any subsequent calls from the VR.
Maybe it's not the best time to relax after all... eh, it'll work out somehow. Just need to pour enough Arete down the drain.
Maybe it's not the best time to relax after all... eh, it'll work out somehow. Just need to pour enough Arete down the drain.
So you are of thought that thread will decide to throw Sovereignty to wolves if given choice? To say nothing of mental stability loss Hunger himself would incur if he sacrificed innocents for his own curse.
Like, we can just tank empowered Apo proc. It's as easy as that.
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Study the Blade
For that sanity, wisdom and good team cohesion, as well as some safety in the BLADE.
Ah, also - 110% Apocryphal proc with downtime for Apo-chan is a hefty Sword of Damocles. Like, Final Fantasy big.
Edit: And I mean that simply due to the fact that she has a lot of options to choose from. Throw a 4-pick fight? Sure. Kill of Letrizia's family? At 110%? Sure! Just fuck something up in the Voyaging Realm, making mage extraction near-impossible? Don't be surprised if that's what happens!
[X] Study the Blade
For that sanity, wisdom and good team cohesion, as well as some safety in the BLADE.
Ah, also - 110% Apocryphal proc with downtime for Apo-chan is a hefty Sword of Damocles. Like, Final Fantasy big.
Edit: And I mean that simply due to the fact that she has a lot of options to choose from. Throw a 4-pick fight? Sure. Kill of Letrizia's family? At 110%? Sure! Just fuck something up in the Voyaging Realm, making mage extraction near-impossible? Don't be surprised if that's what happens!
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It will if Apocrypha simultaneously attacks Letrizia's holdings! Then we can experience the dubious pleasure of choosing which of our territories to abandon.
*sigh* Why couldn't I just pick the fun option and be done with it?
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research
*sigh* Why couldn't I just pick the fun option and be done with it?
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research