A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
I've been thinking a lot about this. The Curse of Anti-synergy has hit us again and it hit us hard. Instead of fixing one of our holes in the build - Stats trailing behind Rank we decide to go hard on Signs. Some people even want comfy?!? WTF!?
We have not seen comfy since the start of the quest, fuck that. Traitors around me - looking at you @runeblue360, I knew you could not be trusted. No one who has touched that cursed Gang(Gisena EFB Gang) could be trusted. Oh, for a few moments I thought you have changed, you even challenged me to a duel for the honor of the praxis several months ago. But it seems that was just LIES. I knew you that Gisena body pillow was not a present, but for yourself.
Taka, an exemplary SORD Chad who now cultivates for Vote-severing realm also voted for non-Praxis.
@Zampano I am sorry man, you argued well, but sometimes people are just not ready for the "objectively" correct choice. They will cling to their choice without ever considering anything else and REEEEEEing at other.
With all that said - FUCK COMFY
[X] Cursebearer's Strain
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research
PS: Signs are good, I consider them the second best option after Praxis, but I will be damned if I let COMFY win.
We have not seen comfy since the start of the quest, fuck that. Traitors around me - looking at you @runeblue360, I knew you could not be trusted. No one who has touched that cursed Gang(Gisena EFB Gang) could be trusted. Oh, for a few moments I thought you have changed, you even challenged me to a duel for the honor of the praxis several months ago. But it seems that was just LIES. I knew you that Gisena body pillow was not a present, but for yourself.
Taka, an exemplary SORD Chad who now cultivates for Vote-severing realm also voted for non-Praxis.
@Zampano I am sorry man, you argued well, but sometimes people are just not ready for the "objectively" correct choice. They will cling to their choice without ever considering anything else and REEEEEEing at other.
With all that said - FUCK COMFY
[X] Cursebearer's Strain
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research
PS: Signs are good, I consider them the second best option after Praxis, but I will be damned if I let COMFY win.
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- Location
- Pindorama
I wonder if people would pay 26 Arete for +Mental Stability? This seems to be most of the benefit of not taking Strain, it seems. Getting our next proc and only our next proc of Apocryphal to be stronger for 2 Signs we get to keep forever is incredible value. Pillars' paradise realm will likely give us Mental Stability boosts too, so I don't think this lost point would overly matter in the long-term. If we know we have an opportunity to rest coming up with Pillars, why not take the opportunity to work harder now?
In addition, for those worried about or dissastified about our Style of Rule, having Hunger give his all for his realms is a sure way to work against that! If you want him to care, you need to vote in a way that demonstrates he cares. And giving his all here would certainly be a good way to show that.
In addition, for those worried about or dissastified about our Style of Rule, having Hunger give his all for his realms is a sure way to work against that! If you want him to care, you need to vote in a way that demonstrates he cares. And giving his all here would certainly be a good way to show that.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Imagine simping for the Sword and then backstabbing it for Mage while claiming you're super duper pro-sword with a straight face. Couldn't be me.
Damn, that's some heavy stuff. Indeed, there's only one true happily ever after, all others being periods of respite before you either take up arms once again or cease. I could see this kind of thing in the notes of the Forebear, at least in his earlier days. He's achieved dominion, what then? Well, we know what his answer was. With every victory, there must be a time of peace before you once again move forward. And on that note:
[X] Sightseeing
[X] Mentor's Duties
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Maximizing Arete gains with 2 options is Intensive + the Synergy option, so 7 Arete, so the Arete benefit of the third option is 12. At the cost of the stability and Apoc, etc.
Silence traitor, go hug your gisena body pillow, people with honor are talking. Or perhaps you will write me another letter of challenge that is full of lies.
Anyway at least the discussion is getting heated, good good. I was missing the SALT and SPITE that are the foundation of this quest.
PS: Regarding your allegations against me:
Let me just say this, and I want to say this to the AST thread: I made my mistakes, but in all of my months of public voting, I have never profited, never profited from MAEG Gang bribes--I have earned every Arete. And in all of my months of thread life, I have never obstructed SORD Gang. And I think, too, that I could say that in my months of public life in the thread, that I welcome this kind of examination, because people have got to know whether or not their SORD Gang member is a crook. Well, I am not a crook. I have earned everything I have got.
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- Location
- Earth
Ahh alright, that's enough fooling around. I'm not super attached to my picks this time around - with Pillars coming up, a vacation and means of safe training/relaxation/mental stability/dad time has already been secured, so we might as well try to deal with as much stuff that can't be taken care of in the Realm of Evening as possible.
I'll back Orm's plan 'cause I'm a fan of working hard and THEN playing hard, and also because I do get a lot of entertainment out of Sharkey's contributions. Though that empowered apocryphal proc does spook me a bit, just in time for October...
[X] Cursebearer's Strain
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
It's not pendantry to point out that the benefit of taking the third option is an additional 12 Arete and 2 picks. 3 picks is 7 arete, so 2 picks is probably about 4 Arete.
However, I think it's a mistake to look at the marginal value of the third component of Intensive / Synergy / Consolidate, because the decision we're making isn't between Intensive/Synergy vs. Intensive/Synergy/Consolidate. Instead, we're looking at a choice between Intensive/Synergy/Consolidate and Sightseeing/Mentoring.
So the actual choice is
| +0.2 Rank | +0.2 Rank |
| Food Porn | |
| +Wis | |
| ++++relationship, +[teenagers], ++Power[teenagers] | +++Adorie, ++Adorie Rank, |
| +++Elixir Prosperity, +++Elixir Strength | |
| +Nilfel Prosperity, +Nilfel Strength | |
| +Temple Prosperity, ++Temple Strength | |
| Potential for +0.1 Rank | |
| Potential for improved Ennoblement via Graces / Blood Augmentation leading to +Elixir Power / +Nilfel Power | |
| 4th Sign & 5th Sign for Free [this is like 26 Arete on its own!) | |
| Characterization Beat: Right before we go into the hyperbolic Time Chamber for 3 weeks of vacation, Hunger decides that he needs 2 weeks of relaxation and family time. | Characterization Beat: Right before we go into the hyperbolic Time Chamber for 3 weeks of vacation, Hunger works hard to try to set up Adorie's kingdom so it's safe to leave her behind & ensure good rulers. |
| +Mental Stability | -Mental Stability, +20-50% Apocryphal proc |
That characterization beat isn't the most fair and balanced thing I've ever written, but it is "fair and balanced"
In my mind, the benefits of the COMFY plan revolve around family time and decadent food porn. There are some important character scenes that we have been missing between Hunger and the Teenagers. Plus, watching them come out of their RW-inspired brainwashing might be interesting. And +Wis is valuable for sure.
But what is +Wis valuable for? Overwhelmingly, I'd say that it's valuable for its role in helping Hunger to be a good Ruler, a responsible and reliable companion, and someone who makes good decisions in and around his role as a Cursebearer. Ignoring the benefits of +Prosperity and +Power for our kingdoms in the Sovereignty and Temple Remnant doesn't seem wise to me. Taking a family vacation while Adorie struggles to mollify her political foes doesn't seem wise to me. Taking a family vacation while Adorie works when we are about to get a 3 week time stop to rest and relax in a realm where we can edit reality to our whims doesn't seem wise to me.
Wisdom is taking responsibility for our kingdoms' prosperity, and reaching for power so that they can help us with our Geas Task. As mentioned, a lot of people don't like our rulership ethos. After seeing the damage done by Augustine we can use this vote as an opportunity to generate an epiphany about the responsibility that personally powerful leaders have to protect their constituents. What I like is that aligning the government's interests with Hunger's interests actually resolves the conflict between being an ambitious adventurer and being a good leader. In this case, we can be both. That's a valuable lesson for future decision points!
The major downside of the Intensive Research plan is that there's a mental stability penalty. But dodging that hit to our mental stability also involves dodging the litany of improvements to our kingdoms, and the 26-Arete equivalent associated with hastening our Signs.
I don't want to just recite the list of benefits ad nauseum, so I'm going to move on to one last point of speculation: I think that there's an interesting sub-plot going on with the powerlevel of the Elixir and the Temple Remnant. By consolidating rulership, the Elixir gets +++Power while the Temple only gets ++Power. I take this to mean that the two nations are brought up to the same power level. After all, they are both going to be client states of Nilfel and so they should both have access to the same resources.
But... it's pretty surprising that the Elixir gets 3 +Power out of that deal while the Temple only gets 2. Was the Temple Remnant more powerful than the Elixir? That wouldn't have been my prediction at all. If Sten had marched against the Sovereignty a week ago, I would've expected the surgecasters to flatten the lapsed Soul Evocation users. What powers and abilities does the Temple Remnant even have access to?
Edit: 725 Words of argument for some Intensive Research
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Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
????
That said, well argued.
[X] Cursebearer's Strain
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research
Edit: unfortunately, this lends itself both to a more powerful apocryphal proc and to a voting knife fight over the next two signs. Nevertheless, it's a tremendous amount of value (even if my true preference is Praxis x2)
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Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Pronouns
- Any/All
I'm voting for Plan Dad because I'm honestly kind of scared that going full effort right now will just, destroy Hunger's ability to take breaks, even in a place of unparalleled luxury like the Realm of Evening.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
oh no i forgot that i was theorizing! I got distracted by the new Practical Guide to Evil chapter. Let me just edit that punchline in real quick:
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
We get the same options in the Realm of Evening. ++Mental Stability.. or STATS and POWER?!
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
[X] Cursebearer's Strain
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research
I don't believe that needing to take breaks is that big of a deal, especially having had a hotspring episode like two weeks ago. If we're not doing Praxis, this is the next best thing.
[X] Consolidate Power
[X] Regency
[X] Intensive Research
I don't believe that needing to take breaks is that big of a deal, especially having had a hotspring episode like two weeks ago. If we're not doing Praxis, this is the next best thing.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Relaxing in the Realm of Evening potentially has a lower opportunity cost than relaxing now, since we can't do politics in the Spa Dimension.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I believe Rihaku has implied this to not be the case, in that gains from training in the Realm of Evening will be of much greater magnitude proportionately as compared to stability gains from relaxing.
Your analysis categorically ignores the rather pressing Apoc proc matter.It's not pendantry to point out that the benefit of taking the third option is an additional 12 Arete and 2 picks. 3 picks is 7 arete, so 2 picks is probably about 4 Arete.
However, I think it's a mistake to look at the marginal value of the third component of Intensive / Synergy / Consolidate, because the decision we're making isn't between Intensive/Synergy vs. Intensive/Synergy/Consolidate. Instead, we're looking at a choice between Intensive/Synergy/Consolidate and Sightseeing/Mentoring.
So the actual choice is
+0.2 Rank +0.2 Rank Food Porn +Wis ++++relationship, +[teenagers], ++Power[teenagers] +++Adorie, ++Adorie Rank, +++Elixir Prosperity, +++Elixir Strength +Nilfel Prosperity, +Nilfel Strength +Temple Prosperity, ++Temple Strength Potential for +0.1 Rank Potential for improved Ennoblement via Graces / Blood Augmentation leading to +Elixir Power / +Nilfel Power 4th Sign & 5th Sign for Free [this is like 26 Arete on its own!) Characterization Beat: Right before we go into the hyperbolic Time Chamber for 3 weeks of vacation, Hunger decides that he needs 2 weeks of relaxation and family time. Characterization Beat: Right before we go into the hyperbolic Time Chamber for 3 weeks of vacation, Hunger works hard to try to set up Adorie's kingdom so it's safe to leave her behind & ensure good rulers. +Mental Stability -Mental Stability, +20-50% Apocryphal proc
That characterization beat isn't the most fair and balanced thing I've ever written, but it is "fair and balanced"
In my mind, the benefits of the COMFY plan revolve around family time and decadent food porn. There are some important character scenes that we have been missing between Hunger and the Teenagers. Plus, watching them come out of their RW-inspired brainwashing might be interesting. And +Wis is valuable for sure.
But what is +Wis valuable for? Overwhelmingly, I'd say that it's valuable for its role in helping Hunger to be a good Ruler, a responsible and reliable companion, and someone who makes good decisions in and around his role as a Cursebearer. Ignoring the benefits of +Prosperity and +Power for our kingdoms in the Sovereignty and Temple Remnant doesn't seem wise to me. Taking a family vacation while Adorie struggles to mollify her political foes doesn't seem wise to me. Taking a family vacation while Adorie works when we are about to get a 3 week time stop to rest and relax in a realm where we can edit reality to our whims doesn't seem wise to me.
Wisdom is taking responsibility for our kingdoms' prosperity, and reaching for power so that they can help us with our Geas Task. As mentioned, a lot of people don't like our rulership ethos. After seeing the damage done by Augustine we can use this vote as an opportunity to generate an epiphany about the responsibility that personally powerful leaders have to protect their constituents. What I like is that aligning the government's interests with Hunger's interests actually resolves the conflict between being an ambitious adventurer and being a good leader. In this case, we can be both. That's a valuable lesson for future decision points!
The major downside of the Intensive Research plan is that there's a mental stability penalty. But dodging that hit to our mental stability also involves dodging the litany of improvements to our kingdoms, and the 26-Arete equivalent associated with hastening our Signs.
I don't want to just recite the list of benefits ad nauseum, so I'm going to move on to one last point of speculation: I think that there's an interesting sub-plot going on with the powerlevel of the Elixir and the Temple Remnant. By consolidating rulership, the Elixir gets +++Power while the Temple only gets ++Power. I take this to mean that the two nations are brought up to the same power level. After all, they are both going to be client states of Nilfel and so they should both have access to the same resources.
But... it's pretty surprising that the Elixir gets 3 +Power out of that deal while the Temple only gets 2. Was the Temple Remnant more powerful than the Elixir? That wouldn't have been my prediction at all. If Sten had marched against the Sovereignty a week ago, I would've expected the surgecasters to flatten the lapsed Soul Evocation users. What powers and abilities does the Temple Remnant even have access to?
Edit: 725 Words of argument for some Intensive Research
Also, last I checked, 4th and 5th signs were 7 and 12 Arete.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Isn't the Realm of Evening supernaturally luxurious, though? Or is training magnified even more than relaxation is?
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I mean hypothetically if the options were something like
5+s to Mental Stability
or
40 picks of power (2 picks/day)
Which would you go for?
This is incorrect, because a) It's 2 picks and 12 arete and b) we'd also get miscellaneous bonuses of Regency on top of that which, ironically enough, make future Apo procs vastly more manageable.
Of course, the actual reason we're using Research as an example is because it's completely quantifiable in terms of Arete, unlike Regency.
There's nothing to ignore. Here
[] Option Name(26 Arete): +1 Mental Stability. Reduce the severity of next Apocrypha proc by 35%*
Would you take this? I think that the answer is rather obvious
*Given how the Apo works reduction would need to be like 70% or something, but the point remains the same
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
I discussed the Apoc proc in some detail with SpectatingRaven earlier this evening. I don't have any objection to repeating those arguments in order to pad my wordcount, but the points are already entered into the discussion. I was mainly trying to highlight a contrast between the "+wisdom" of sightseeing and the "wisdom" of adjusting our rulership ethos.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Framed that way no, but isn't that a rather strange way of framing the option's benefits?
Rihaku
The Internet
I'm surprised there isn't a compromise "Study the Praxis x1" + Mentorship/Sightseeing/Regency plan gaining ground, I've seen some people advocate for it but I guess you guys just can't pass up the value! Study the Praxis x1 still gets you a Praxis training point and the opportunity to spend Arete towards Praxis picks, which could suffice to acquire Refinement of Battle or other high-tier Praxis techniques.
If you roll a 2 then you'd only have to generate 5 Praxis picks with Arete to get something like Imperial Refinement, or only 2 Praxis picks worth of Arete to get a 4-pick Praxis technique on the level of Refinement of Quickness! All without empowering the Crowning Curse or sacrificing hard-won mental stability points.
Or if you doubled up on the Praxis and rolled a 4, you could get a Quickness-tier Refinement for free or an Imperial-tier for only 3 picks' worth of Arete. Now that's value!
If you roll a 2 then you'd only have to generate 5 Praxis picks with Arete to get something like Imperial Refinement, or only 2 Praxis picks worth of Arete to get a 4-pick Praxis technique on the level of Refinement of Quickness! All without empowering the Crowning Curse or sacrificing hard-won mental stability points.
Or if you doubled up on the Praxis and rolled a 4, you could get a Quickness-tier Refinement for free or an Imperial-tier for only 3 picks' worth of Arete. Now that's value!