We will eventually come to the inevitable dilemma where mitigation is competing with some long- or short-term goal. At that moment, Grail Keeper will reduce the urgency of finding a Huntress Moon target. Whether or not the thread ever uses the power deliberately, it changes our incentive in future Decimation votes.

The people who wanted to say that all actions which increase the risk of Decimation are "reprehensible" can not vote for this option without being hypocrites. And yet...
We will eventually come to the inevitable dilemma where mitigation is competing with some long- or short-term goal.
Man, I wonder what that would look like? :p

Okay. You're conflating changing the incentive structure to make Decimation more appealing (increasing the risk of people choosing to decimate) with choosing to delay decimation (increasing the risk that decimation happens, regardless of choices taken after that vote). I can't say you're wrong to do so. But from the perspective of one of those "hypocrites" there is practically no incentive that could make decimation okay, or so I see it.

There are, of course, voters who see it differently, and you could say I should take them into account as well. But that level of politics is more your speed than mine? I care about morality for Hunger, the vote math somehow leads to Hunger stuff but it's above my head.

I dunno how coherent I'm being, and I see amusing parallels between what I'm saying with abstinence-only education, but those are my thoughts.
 
I'm personally not planning to use that function. It's all about the extended lifespan of Pillars mitigation for me.

Weaponizing the Decimator to force nations to capitulate to Hunger is about as immoral as threatening to kill their civilians and poison their land until they submit, yes. It should be considered as such.
And I wasn't planning to allow Decimation to activate. (In fact, Nightmare Flight worked exactly as I predicted and Tower has no negative moral consequence at all.) But, Moral Gang saw a rhetorical cudgel and they reached for it.

Going forward, they get to live with every decision being examined in terms of moral calculus. The simple fact is, voting for Fisher King moves the probability of deliberately Decimating enemy civilians from 0 to greater than Zero.
 
Doubling the number of [fish] targets has little practical value when such targets are vanishingly rare. 2 x 0 = 0. We won't find them without using a reality editing power like Pillars. If we're using Pillars anyway the doubled proc chance is rendered moot by Hunger outright specifying encounter and the 2 month satiety is unneeded since we have monthly uses. There's a little bit of extra margin for error I suppose but not enough to pay for.
First, we have no idea whether such targets are vanishingly rare. We certainly have seen several in the Vanishing Realm and it is certainly possible that there are some space whales we can eat in the Human Sphere. Second, it has been outright stated that Pillars by themselves are not enough to completely deal with the Decimator, and that we are going to run out of HM targets in them eventually. Picking Fisher King would delay that day considerably.
 
Man, I really like Grail Keeper type mitigation. I wonder if we can further mitigate Decimator's Afflictions effect on other people by having Hunger take on even more Affliction type Curses on himself. That would be suitably heroic.
 
Last edited:
And I wasn't planning to allow Decimation to activate. (In fact, Nightmare Flight worked exactly as I predicted and Tower has no negative moral consequence at all.) But, Moral Gang saw a rhetorical cudgel and they reached for it.

Going forward, they get to live with every decision being examined in terms of moral calculus. The simple fact is, voting for Fisher King moves the probability of deliberately Decimating enemy civilians from 0 to greater than Zero.
On the other hand, it reduces the chances of accidentally Decimating everyone, which to me seems like a greater risk out of the two.
 
Doubling the number of [fish] targets has little practical value when such targets are vanishingly rare. 2 x 0 = 0. We won't find them without using a reality editing power like Pillars. If we're using Pillars anyway the doubled proc chance is rendered moot by Hunger outright specifying encounter and the 2 month satiety is unneeded since we have monthly uses. There's a little bit of extra margin for error I suppose but not enough to pay for.
Pillars can't provide infinite targets, it can't even provide a major fraction of them IIRC. The more we rely on Pillars to bail us out, the worse things become in that regard. So yes, expanding the range of our targets is pretty important, as is extending the Sated effect.
 
Man, I wonder what that would look like? :p

Okay. You're conflating changing the incentive structure to make Decimation more appealing (increasing the risk of people choosing to decimate) with choosing to delay decimation (increasing the risk that decimation happens, regardless of choices taken after that vote). I can't say you're wrong to do so. But from the perspective of one of those "hypocrites" there is practically no incentive that could make decimation okay, or so I see it.

Sometimes you lose votes. One of the best arguments against nuclear proliferation (imo) is that when a strongman or dictator eventually takes over a country, they should not have access to weapons that must never be used. The best way to prevent a weapon from being used in the first place is not to build it.

Voting for Grail Keeper puts a weapon in Hunger's hands. Are you literally 100% confident that the thread will be able to avoid using it forever?

There are, of course, voters who see it differently, and you could say I should take them into account as well. But that level of politics is more your speed than mine? I care about morality for Hunger, the vote math somehow leads to Hunger stuff but it's above my head.

I dunno how coherent I'm being, and I see amusing parallels between what I'm saying with abstinence-only education, but those are my thoughts.
Vote math aside, Grail Keeper is a power that Hunger will have at his fingertips for the next 937 octillion years. In terms of Hunger's morality, this means he will always be a couple months away from the opportunity to decimate his enemies. He will always have the option of prioritizing his own subjects over those in other nations, which really warps the kind of strategies and governance that he might adopt.

Grail Keeper puts Hunger's finger on the trigger of Decimation. That is a responsibility that moves the moral calculus in exactly the same direction that led to a major outcry about Tower. If anything, Tower meant Hunger was rolling the dice with mitigation. Grail Keeper turns mitigation into a blade that can be turned against our enemies. I know which one is more objectionable under my (actual) moral code.

In my mind, it's a cool character beat. But it was enough to cause name calling and threats to leave the thread from some other posters, who are now voting for basically the same thing...
 
Last edited:
Exceptional levels of Int and Wits can also discount the cost of hastening. These discounts if they exist have already been applied this option. You may also get Signs for free from Adorie's research, but that would take a lot longer.
Poor hastening. Not only are we 1. getting them eventually anyway, 2. likely increasing the rate at which we get them, as our/Adorie's stats increase, but 3. each Sign is harder than the last. Hastening feels like a very hasty option, at a time when our short-term power is largely secure. It's just too ungreedy to win.
 
Voting for Grail Keeper puts a weapon in Hunger's hands. Are you literally 100% confident that the thread will be able to avoid using it forever?
Yes, actually. I struggle to think of the situation where it wouldn't be more efficient for Hunger to just go murder everyone normally instead of keeping Decimator up at the great cost to himself and his polity.
 
And no, Tower was still completely idiotic choice and those who voted it should still feel bad.
Sorry, you'll have to speak up, I can't quite hear you from atop my pile of hoarded markers.
Something I didn't mention in my reaction post, since it was from Ber's perspective and I forgot- Hunger just saved a bajillion lives here! I don't even know what that number means! That's a good reason to put aside Decimation salt, it feels pretty nice to be the hero. :)
It was an interesting sequence, Bearic's perspective was a neat way of tying up old narrative threads. Should've said this earlier, but I'm grateful we got some closure and insider information about Ber before he exited, pursued by a bear.

[X] Sharpening the Blade [4 Arete]

A total of five picks and twenty-four Arete's just too spicy for my palate, especially since it effectively bars us from ever getting Stranglethorn. While I wouldn't be unhappy to see Accursed Favor win, I'm going to go with the boring-but-practical option of shoring up our weaknesses first. The next enemy in the queue's the Lord Protector, who has been described as a magic user far more powerful than a level 20 wizard. We have the All-Defeating Stance and Gisena, but there's no such thing as too much insurance; Iridescence inflates the value of Protection, a stat we've got a staggering 36 pluses (thanks, Conjured Blade) in. We've also been procrastinating on Honing for too long, +7 Int in combat will mean more delicious instances of age and treachery.
 
I try to choose sharpen blade but I can not argue myself against 10 accurse favor thought.


3 Favor is enough to 30% instant win any scrying against us and Lord Protector is one of those type.
 
I try to choose sharpen blade but I can not argue myself against 10 accurse favor thought.


3 Favor is enough to 30% instant win any scrying against us and Lord Protector is one of those type.
How confident are you that favor in the previous quest is measured using the same units as in this quest? For example, we need a lot more Arete to buy an EFB than we needed fate points (or whatever).
 
How confident are you that favor in the previous quest is measured using the same units as in this quest? For example, we need a lot more Arete to buy an EFB than we needed fate points (or whatever).
Well,I don't have any evidence but Accurse's favor is very likely open unique advancement.


Something like instant win any enemy below Rank 10 is on the table with favor.
 
Vote math aside, Grail Keeper is a power that Hunger will have at his fingertips for the next 937 octillion years.
As is any other power we get. Soon enough we will be at level where we can obliterate various levels of infinite amounts of people with mere gesture; needless to say, no one goes "but we can't get more power because Hunger can turn evil or we can vote Tower-level stupid", that's a silly argument.

Granted, entire Grail Keeper thing is just a red herring to begin with. You are ignoring actual arguments regarding Fisher King upgrading Hunger Sated hunts, and especially Pillars, which would make Decimation vastly easier to mitigate, reducing both effort we need to put in doing so and, more importantly, reducing inevitable periods of Decimator running to a minimum. Amount of mental gymnastics needed to pretend that option that all but perfectly mitigates Decimator somehow encourages not mitigating Decimator is frankly absurd.

As for Grail Keeper, I am planning to use it whenever we have to. Like, why wouldn't we? At some point we will be forced to not Sate Decimator for one reason or another, and at that point I'd much rather have Hunger tank the loss and not drain Letrizia, Gisena and other people we rule. Indeed, fact that he's ready to tank two curses instead of letting his friends get Decimated is pretty heroic to me. Sure, we can't fully tank it and as such some people will get fucked anyway. That sucks and I'm sure that Hunger would rather not Decimate anyone, but saving at least our buddies is a plus.
 
If
one bamboo two bamboo

three bamboo 830 something bamboo

Oswald and August shared a look. Whatever byplay two engaged in went right over Nine's head. Everything ended with the Director having given Nine a meaningful look alongside a promised gift should the mercenary succeed in the ordeal. And as was expected, the red eyed lancer snapped a salute before heading onwards to prepare.

Three days since, Nine wondered if he had been far too hasty in picking this assignment. Between his recent achievements, including the subjugation of an Elite Rotbeast, and the swell of power within his lance, Nine's confidence was far from unfounded. Mere entry unto the island had garnered the attention of the local wildlife. The welcoming ceremony even included gouts of flame that interfered with their landing strategy.

In that they didn't land so much as they crashed against whatever passed as canopy.

Decisions were reached as Nine lay there, draped against the casualties of his impromptu landing pad. No greater truth existed beyond the fact that he, truly, did choose this assignment with far too much haste. It was a silver lining that he found himself relatively uninjured. Negligible scrapes here and there, along with mashed rations courtesy of this forsaken island.

Calming himself down took more effort than extricating himself from his cozied bed space. Nine eventually settled down enough to parse his situation. A stocked medical kit, a blessing in itself. Rations enough for a day, two if he took things slow. Not only separated from the team, Nine had also lost sight of wherever else the others might have landed. And all around him were these unfamiliar...trees? Plants?

Long green stalks of wood that lanced towards the skies, with leaves that bloomed the further up one went. They bent without issue when Nine tried to experiment, and snapped back up when he pulled Promise back. It looked like nothing he had ever seen before, but he felt relief when they weren't so clumped up as to blot out the sun. Scorching as the sun might have been, it was infinitely preferable than having to navigate blindly.

Nine muted his footfalls, employing what little knowledge he had regarding the exploration of this type of environment. Sharpened senses allowed smoother transitions. Smoother transitions allowed faster responses. And faster responses allowed one to weave around the sudden wood stalk that speared the space he had recently occupied. The incident was followed by similar events all around him.

Several of these elongated plant-things moved in conjunction with one another. Almost as if they were linked to the same thing. Red eyes snapped upwards as Promise tilted in his hand. And above him, above even the stalks that surrounded him, was a bulbous object encased in amber carapace. Massive in every sense of the word, and with its encompassing scale came the haughty ignorance projected to all things a hundredth of its size.

And though it lacked the overwhelming atmosphere one incurred from glancing at the Rotbeast, Nine could wholeheartedly say that the monster above held strength far greater than the Elite Rotspawn. Its presence was oppressive enough to mute even the thundering echoes within Promise. The unidentified beast's procession took infinitely long minutes to pass, and another eternity past that before the mercenary could pull himself out of his stupor.

Just what kind of hell scape did Nine volunteer himself for?

-----

[9] Mindless Onslaught had won, and we are not off to a great start. Several rolls got botched from the get go, leaving Nine in a situation far from idyllic. One can only hope that the others fared just as well. Nine is currently operating with -17% effectiveness, courtesy of his 1.7 Apostle Credit debt.

What does Nine focus on accomplishing?

[ ] Survival:
- Food and Shelter first and foremost.
- Personal Safety above all else.
- Though Nine has some workable supplies with him still, one can't be assured that it'll last him more than one encounter.
- May be done at a later time, but will have diminishing chances of success the longer it is put off.

[] Dominance:
- Nine will aim to hunt down targets to feed into his own strength.
- High probabilities of 2pick fights, with equal chances for either a 1 or 3 pick fight to occur.
- Nine is on a timer, and he knows this. Things will only get that much worse once night falls, as they always do.
- The Benefactor applauds such foolhardy decision making. Gain 0.5 Apostle Credits and 5% Combat Efficiency for the first encounter.

[ ] Companionship:
- If two arms aren't enough to solve a problem, then just get more!
- Nine will focus on tracking down his wayward teammates. He might not know where they are exactly, but a general direction is better than nothing.
- Much like Survival, Nine will do his best to avoid direct conflict and focus on joining up with as many of his allies as he can.


And applicable to whichever vote ends up winning: discussion, planning, and ideas on how to proceed will generally increase probabilities of favourable outcomes.
Oh God we actually went to monster island
[9] Dominance
The reasoning in the option is sound.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade: Fisher King

I have been swayed. So long as we do our best to keep Decimator sated going forward I'll be satisfied.
 
While struggling between "headpats" and "honestly this doesn't do much else for us," I came to a realization. I don't like fishing. There, I said it! Fishing memes go home. Whether or not it can be fished, I don't want to fish it!

[X] Sharpening the Blade [4 Arete]
 
*Grail Keeper: At any time while within a land he rules the wielder may take on the Decimator's Affliction into himself. For the duration, the Decimator's Affliction merely poisons the land, rendering it barren and and its residents infertile, rather than claiming lives. Territories not under the wielder's rule are not affected by this mitigation. This causes him to suffer the Affliction of Leprosy and the Mutilating Affliction for the duration.
I'd like to point out that this still has pretty bad effects on the subjects in Hunger's domain. Sure it doesn't directly kill anyone, but crop failures are liable to cause death and suffering anyway. Imagine multiple solar systems, all stricken by the equivalent of The Year without a Summer. A bad famine can easily kill 10% or more of the population. You'd have to compensate for it somehow, like a Jesus-ability that multiplies your food stores, or by trading for food with neighboring polities (who are all going to be angry about their people dying).
 
I actually don't understand the argument that taking Fisher King is somehow less moral. If we didn't give a fuck we could already use Decimation against our enemies anyway; forcing enemies into a hellish siege is in no way worse than just taking years of life from them. And at the same time, Fisher King allows us to actually prepare our domain should we require to go without Decimation for a period of time instead of just accepting people's deaths; that seems like the real value of Grail Keeper to me. Previously, no amount of preparation could mitigate the effects of the Decimator's Affliction; we just had to get to a target in time. Now even if we can't do that, we still have options, even if costly ones. I don't see how that could be constructed as the less moral course of action.
While struggling between "headpats" and "honestly this doesn't do much else for us," I came to a realization. I don't like fishing. There, I said it! Fishing memes go home. Whether or not it can be fished, I don't want to fish it!
I must answer this betrayal in kind.

[X] Forebear's Blade: Fisher King

Your move, Bet-rayosaur.
 
[X] Forebear's Blade: Fisher King

I hope future Advancements will allow Hunger to take on even more Curses to reduce the impact of Decimator's Affliction's on the innocents further still. This is the sort of mitigation that I can really dig!

The only part i dislike is that it only protects our subjects, which is eh, doesn't really fit Hunger's beliefs and philosophy. So I am still somewhat iffy on this.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to point out that this still has pretty bad effects on the subjects in Hunger's domain. Sure it doesn't directly kill anyone, but crop failures are liable to cause death and suffering anyway. Imagine multiple solar systems, all stricken by the equivalent of The Year without a Summer. A bad famine can easily kill 10% or more of the population. You'd have to compensate for it somehow, like a Jesus-ability that multiplies your food stores, or by trading for food with neighboring polities (who are all going to be angry about their people dying).
That's what Decimator already does. Now we just make it ignore our direct subjects and take our health instead.
 
Fisher king seems great, but I am much more invested in pillars and I would rather actually get something out of this fight than bank for something. Also I am not sure it is worth a defining slot considering we only have four and SJUC limits us to five total if we take it if I remember correctly. On the other hand it is really quite good, but on the other other hand Stranglethorn and it's doubling and will gets more attractive the higher our stats. On the other other hand the agility cut gets worse the higher our stats but we have already way get compensated for that so I guess. This. We do need to take these eventually and honest if not now then when, it's not like they will ever not have amazing competition.

[X] Sharpening the Blade [4 Arete]
 
Hmm, producing food effectively out of thin air won't actually be impossible for Hunger, compared to some of the stuff he already does. Previously we weren't really capable of contending against the Decimator's effect directly, but saving up on food and such is much easier than saving up on lifeforce for everyone. Not that I expect this to be activated for any significant length of time, but it does ease the burden somewhat. It's also a fact that the areas we're going to conquer are going to be pretty vast, since these are interstellar polities we're talking about. A range of several solar systems isn't really that great compared to our future conquests, and we could conceivably just move around our territory without affecting the situation too much as long as we don't stay in one place too long. Best to not let things get that far, but it's better than the alternative of just having Decimator be activated normally.
 
Back
Top