Projectile
Thinking of Rabbits
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Fanwork#2596 Words of Armament Fish Tactics
Thorn: The core of our strategy, I believe, is to prick the fish frequently without dying in return. "A Fire Woken" is the reference material of choice. Artful Thorn takes a quarter of the casting time of RoQ, but lasts only a single strike which must be used immediately. It'll be a pain to get the freedom to do this uninterrupted, especially with the Fish's Rank screaming sirens about Thorn's danger. Earlier, my plan was relying on Silver and Second Stage for a couple hits, so we could tank the counterattack without interruption, but with Gisena here it's more complicated. Silver should still work, at least. But, of course, we should try to maneuver so we don't need it. I'd say that a continent-sized fish should have a weak spot of "behind, like, all of it," but that would be too easy. We should at least find out why that wouldn't work, though. Preliminarily, if it can turn around in a reasonable time (as it would almost have to), it will have obscene rotational power with which to splat us.
Five blows would have been enough to kill the Rotbeast, and since Artful Thorn damage scales to the enemies' size, five should suffice for the Fish as well. The problem, in addition to the Fish's resistance, is that Hunger mentioned that he can only use three without serious strain, and four (as against the Rotbeast) leaves him "bitterly drained" and "at half-strength". Five would be "not so easy," which translated from Hunger-speak means it's a no-no. This was before we got the Tears, so four should be fine. I'm still wary of five, given the exponential drain, but maybe not more than I am of fighting the mostly-dead fish without Thorns. We'll have to see how he feels.
The other consideration for Thorns is that it'll give wound penalties, so we want to hit ASAP. Might want to accept more risk to get the first strike in and cut off a "hand," with the Silver safety blanket.
(De)Buffs: Refinement of Quickness should help- let's cast it immediately and/or before combat starts. We don't have Shadowcord buffs, but at the Fish's Rank it might not have helped much anyway.
Our Blood magic is at Rank 10.475. Hunger and Gisena should be buffedto the gills, however strongly that translates to stats at this point. Absent fuckery, enough to debuff even completed Armaments. It could be a lifesaver here, slowing and weakening the enemy that can one-shot us. I'm not sure how our range will interact with the Fish being a single continent-sized entity. Can we debuff the whole thing by focusing on a part of it? Ring magic is conceptual enough that I think it'd work that way, but if not, maybe being closer to a "heart" would be useful.
But, since the goal is to land Thorns, holding off on the debuff until we're about to make the first strike could throw the Fish off enough to be useful. Bloodflickering didn't work on Vanreir, but the Unerring wasn't a great target for that tactic even if he was much weaker.
Blasting Edeldross from 60->90% could be similarly useful near the end of the fight. The Rotbeast fight showed that it's much more draining than I thought, but it's still viable. And this time, Gisena will be in the area, which'll be neat.
The Fish might not even notice Gisena's Ult, but we should test how it reacts to Nullity blasts for the sake of science and the possibility of a pleasant surprise. As usual, do not put Hunger in the Nullity. I'm stating the obvious because the Fish has high Rank and I don't want to get keikakued into something stupid.
Gisena: Despite her awesomeness, I didn't expect Hunger to bring her along lest she be collateraled. But she's here, so let's take advantage. The obvious benefit is that she can shut down magical attacks that would pierce our non-Iridescent Protection. I'm not sure how well she'd deal with a superlaser, but Hunger will be grateful to not have to dance through 2hu bullshit.
Has it been 8 hours since Gisena started peeking at the spatial magics? Wait, no- she uses her green eyes in the update. It would be overly optimistic to expect her to be able to find a weakness or something, but no harm in trying. It's "Less Refined," so there might be hope.
And it's hard to tell through her subtlety and humility, but I'm pretty sure Gisena is a genius. She might have good advice.
Offensively, I struggle to see how Gisena could do anything. Unless she pulls out the secret powerup she's been teasing about for the past few updates, but I can't really plan around that. Time buffs would be nice here.
Gisena-Defending Stance: We do have to keep her alive, though. The Backpack is almost mandatory outside of bait- Gisena doesn't have the tankiness or mobility to survive in this fight for long without borrowing Hunger's. Hunger's mobility, that is, because Hunger isn't tough enough to throw down with the fish either. Wrapping her in the Mantle will protect against collateral damage, at least. Edelblood buffs, too. There's no chance we'll snap-buy UV, since ADS is clearly superior for this fight.
It's possible that the Fish might not care about Gisena, since she isn't the one with the horrible stinger. If so, we could leave her in a collateral-proof space. The main problem with this idea is that the Fish will have enough Rank to know that Hunger will defend Gisena and pull a Ber.
Gisena as Mondo Bait/I know that you know that: Which we could take advantage of, but again, Rank. The Fish's high Rank reminds me of the Avecarn fight, where he was informed that deception would be futile against Hunger's Guile-Defeating Stance. What a pain in the ass.
I have an outline of an idea relying on the Fish being able to read Gisena more easily than Hunger, where Gisena intentionally only has half the plan and so feeds the Fish bullshit information. I'm not sure if such a complicated construction wouldn't just get the "fuck it, disregard everything" response, but that would still be useful, maybe. I'm not smart enough to make the details work...
Gisena: I'm going to run over here to do a thing!
Hunger: I'm going to secretly follow her!
Fish: Stop her from doing the thing, she's vulnerable! Oh no, I have been stabbed!
Fish, alternative: Information is conflicting, oh no the thing has been done!
Disregarding how Hunger doesn't have the stealth for this, and the doublethink required to leave the genius out of the loop and etc. Something less hypothetical, uh. "Hey Gisena, use your Ult in ten seconds." The Fish uses its precog to expect the Ult in ten seconds, and reacts accordingly. Then, nine seconds later: "Lol JK, don't use your Ult."
People whose brains aren't currently sludge, please either help finish my thought or tell me it's a dumb plan.
Swim for your life: The Fish doesn't have anything to gain from fighting Hunger, it could cut and run at any time. Hunger is probably faster with Refinement of Quickness, at least. But it could blast a huge wave at Civilization #8173 to distract us. Not that exactly, the answer there is +Heartlessness, but something along those lines. A good opening strike could slow it down, as well as blood debuffs.
Environment: Fish+Water=Bad. I don't have many new thoughts on this, except that Edeldross flight might be incredibly slow by now if it doesn't benefit from +Agi. We need to see it in action to decide if the water is as much of a problem as story logic suggests, or if it just doesn't matter at this level and Hunger can ignore it. Could carve out a pocket of air/vacuum near the Fish?
Artful Thorn't: The worst case scenario is (LP falls, everyone dies)- okay, a bad case scenario is that Artful Thorn, which the whole plan is built to support, plain doesn't work, and we're left to fight the continent sized beast with a bastard sword. I dunno why it wouldn't, maybe the Foremost designed Armaments with specific countermeasures against the one cool trick that kaijus hate. Non-Thorn strategies will also help when we can't use any more Thorns because of the scaling- it should be mostly dead by this point, but maybe it caused us to miss a few and is still fighting fit.
I need to do some incredibly vague napkin math to see if hitting this thing to death is even plausible. Okay, the volume of a mountain range... can't find it. The volume of Mauna Loa, the biggest mountain, is 75,000 km^3. How many mountains in a moun-
Okay, let me go with area. Mountain Ranges are often 75-150 miles (120-240 km) wide, and greatly vary in length, let's go with 2000 km long. 400,000 km^2 of area in a Rotbeast. 24,000,000 km^2 for North America. If we assume aspherical cubic Fish and Rotbeast in a vacuum- 117575507654 km^3 vs. 252982212.813 km^3, the Fish is 464.758 times bigger. Based on rough nonsense estimates. I could have just taken Gisena's eyeballed "several orders of magnitude" as 1,000 and saved myself an hour of math. The work is my punishment for ignoring a genius - but a little math is fun now and then, so I shouldn't complain.
The Fish is 1,000 times larger than the Rotbeast, which would take Hunger around a day to kill. Has our DPS increased a thousandfold in the last two weeks? Luckily, we just got Whiteout to increase our DPS. ++Agi Skyveil, ++Agi/Might Bastion, ++Agi Tears, +20% Agi Tower, +100% Agi +30% All Stats Silver, +70% Physical Vigorflame. Str from 180 to 280, Agi from 130 to 350? Damn, okay. 50.7 Agi pluses to 157.5 (Not counting Cut Through)? Hunger is obscenely faster than he was before.
I'm done with math, it looks like there's enough "eh, I can see a 2x from dps coming from that" divided from the thousandfold bulk that going from 5.3 to 9.475 Rank should deal with the rest. Plus, this probably won't have the Rotbeast's complete lack of weak spots. tl;dr we can feasibly hit it until it dies.
One benefit of non-Thorn attacks is that they can be targeted, the downside is that they have to be. Fins, sense organs, "arteries," weapons (especially if we haven't grabbed ADS, for the 5x Ruin boost), the usual. I should note that we can obviously hit weakspots with normal Cuts even when we're still trying to Thorn if an opportunity presents itself, I never explicitly said that before. We can also use my old favorite of Bladewind spam! No need to get close to the fish and risk retaliation bodyslams, just keep cutting. I'm interested to see how it'll hold up in such a high-level fight. They should all be aimed rather than just hitting wherever, doing total HP damage with Bladewinds is like pissing into the ocean.
The best way to quickly increase DPS is to snap-buy ADS, or MoDS if we haven't mined the Arete. +5 All stats and 5x Ruin is no joke, and the autodefences would make this a bit less rocket tag-y.
Hunger-Defending Stance: I've written more about how to hurt the Fish than how to avoid getting hurt in return. We've been told one good shot can kill Hunger, which means that he's got to dodge for his life. If the Fish sends out a massive Rank-backed tidal wave that's too big to dodge, dodge it anyway. Refinement of Quickness is cool like that. It's a stamina hog, though, so we'd want to end the fight fast if we rely on it...
Proactive defense by spamming bladewinds at weapons, if we don't have ADS yet, would be useful. The same for Edeldross shields- they might be stronger after SIlver. Also Outer Shadow, we have lots of meh defenses to layer into something decent maybe. Have to work out how to layer them so they don't get eaten by Gisena's Nullity defenses, which are more important. Combined with Whiteout, some of the attacks that previously would have oneshot Hunger might only severely damage him- which, with Inherit and Healing, is the same as doing no damage if Hunger can get away quickly enough. Don't get hit by the Fish itself, that's still dead for sure.
I have a thought about Hunger cutting off body parts that are in danger so they can get physically destroyed without any soul damage happening, to be regenerated later, but I don't know enough about how that works to suggest it seriously.
Wacky Implausible Ideas (to varying degrees): Shift the Cloak to the Noontime Sky, the Fish will never suspect that it's still Hunger. Try to argue that because it's an "Armament," WeDS applies to the entire Fish. Check to see if there are any non-destroyed civs nearby that could give buffs. Try to slaughter a 0-1-pick enemy before the Fish's Rank tells it we want to kill it for powerups, and also to get used to Hunger's new powerlevel. Fly to the Outer Sky and crash back down, abusing Edeldross's fuelless kinetic flight for massive speed, and Fall of Night to take no damage (this one actually seems reasonable, at least for some fights). Mindbreak the Fish with massive Cha so it accepts its death. Use the Sea of Nullity to remove the sea of water, because words. Conceptual Sky bullshit to punish the Fish for pretending to be the horizon. Figure out how to take advantage of the Armament not having a pilot, and only being an "incomplete" person- hammer on the soul Vanrier style? Soul Cuts? Diplo the Fish before backstabbing it, I don't want to do this because it's mean. Try to figure out what Curse it has, that's Gisena's job. Grab giant whales as bait, it might get Hungry some time. Does it have any particularly important looking Runes to smash? Unleash max Edelboost+Sea and everything immediately to kill it before it notices us.
-How do I shot Rank: Even being around Hunger's uncontrolled Astral storm was dangerous for the party, so there's a lot of Pressure power to use there. Problem is, Hunger has no experience in this area, and neither do I, so who knows how feasible anything is. Is there an "On" button for a Shroud that may or may not exist? Could we use a super move like Versch has, with our connection to him? It would be awesome here, but I doubt it. Overwhelm our enemy, whiteout the sky with Bladewinds! Do they work differently now, can we power them up more? Can we use more fine-tuned soul attacks than "Pressure everything" now?
It'd be nice to play around a bit before the fight, but I don't trust that the Fish will sit obligingly and obliviously while we practice to kill it- it's good that Hunger learns best under pressure anyway, he'll just have to pay attention.
Ideal Astral Summon: Blood-having, to benefit from those buffs, if possible. A chargeable super attack, that would force the Fish to pay attention so Hunger can move in with Thorn, would be great. Defense or speed buffs? Illusions? Possibilities are endless.
Y'know, Astral Beasts are the natural enemies of Armaments anyway (for whatever reason), so... if whatever we summon can open a portal itself, we might have an army on our side, since we share a common cause. Just don't tell them about Versch lol.
Since that actually feels somewhat clever, I'll end with the Astral Army Made.
Thorn: The core of our strategy, I believe, is to prick the fish frequently without dying in return. "A Fire Woken" is the reference material of choice. Artful Thorn takes a quarter of the casting time of RoQ, but lasts only a single strike which must be used immediately. It'll be a pain to get the freedom to do this uninterrupted, especially with the Fish's Rank screaming sirens about Thorn's danger. Earlier, my plan was relying on Silver and Second Stage for a couple hits, so we could tank the counterattack without interruption, but with Gisena here it's more complicated. Silver should still work, at least. But, of course, we should try to maneuver so we don't need it. I'd say that a continent-sized fish should have a weak spot of "behind, like, all of it," but that would be too easy. We should at least find out why that wouldn't work, though. Preliminarily, if it can turn around in a reasonable time (as it would almost have to), it will have obscene rotational power with which to splat us.
Five blows would have been enough to kill the Rotbeast, and since Artful Thorn damage scales to the enemies' size, five should suffice for the Fish as well. The problem, in addition to the Fish's resistance, is that Hunger mentioned that he can only use three without serious strain, and four (as against the Rotbeast) leaves him "bitterly drained" and "at half-strength". Five would be "not so easy," which translated from Hunger-speak means it's a no-no. This was before we got the Tears, so four should be fine. I'm still wary of five, given the exponential drain, but maybe not more than I am of fighting the mostly-dead fish without Thorns. We'll have to see how he feels.
The other consideration for Thorns is that it'll give wound penalties, so we want to hit ASAP. Might want to accept more risk to get the first strike in and cut off a "hand," with the Silver safety blanket.
(De)Buffs: Refinement of Quickness should help- let's cast it immediately and/or before combat starts. We don't have Shadowcord buffs, but at the Fish's Rank it might not have helped much anyway.
Our Blood magic is at Rank 10.475. Hunger and Gisena should be buffed
But, since the goal is to land Thorns, holding off on the debuff until we're about to make the first strike could throw the Fish off enough to be useful. Bloodflickering didn't work on Vanreir, but the Unerring wasn't a great target for that tactic even if he was much weaker.
Blasting Edeldross from 60->90% could be similarly useful near the end of the fight. The Rotbeast fight showed that it's much more draining than I thought, but it's still viable. And this time, Gisena will be in the area, which'll be neat.
The Fish might not even notice Gisena's Ult, but we should test how it reacts to Nullity blasts for the sake of science and the possibility of a pleasant surprise. As usual, do not put Hunger in the Nullity. I'm stating the obvious because the Fish has high Rank and I don't want to get keikakued into something stupid.
Gisena: Despite her awesomeness, I didn't expect Hunger to bring her along lest she be collateraled. But she's here, so let's take advantage. The obvious benefit is that she can shut down magical attacks that would pierce our non-Iridescent Protection. I'm not sure how well she'd deal with a superlaser, but Hunger will be grateful to not have to dance through 2hu bullshit.
Has it been 8 hours since Gisena started peeking at the spatial magics? Wait, no- she uses her green eyes in the update. It would be overly optimistic to expect her to be able to find a weakness or something, but no harm in trying. It's "Less Refined," so there might be hope.
And it's hard to tell through her subtlety and humility, but I'm pretty sure Gisena is a genius. She might have good advice.
Offensively, I struggle to see how Gisena could do anything. Unless she pulls out the secret powerup she's been teasing about for the past few updates, but I can't really plan around that. Time buffs would be nice here.
Gisena-Defending Stance: We do have to keep her alive, though. The Backpack is almost mandatory outside of bait- Gisena doesn't have the tankiness or mobility to survive in this fight for long without borrowing Hunger's. Hunger's mobility, that is, because Hunger isn't tough enough to throw down with the fish either. Wrapping her in the Mantle will protect against collateral damage, at least. Edelblood buffs, too. There's no chance we'll snap-buy UV, since ADS is clearly superior for this fight.
It's possible that the Fish might not care about Gisena, since she isn't the one with the horrible stinger. If so, we could leave her in a collateral-proof space. The main problem with this idea is that the Fish will have enough Rank to know that Hunger will defend Gisena and pull a Ber.
Gisena as Mondo Bait/I know that you know that: Which we could take advantage of, but again, Rank. The Fish's high Rank reminds me of the Avecarn fight, where he was informed that deception would be futile against Hunger's Guile-Defeating Stance. What a pain in the ass.
I have an outline of an idea relying on the Fish being able to read Gisena more easily than Hunger, where Gisena intentionally only has half the plan and so feeds the Fish bullshit information. I'm not sure if such a complicated construction wouldn't just get the "fuck it, disregard everything" response, but that would still be useful, maybe. I'm not smart enough to make the details work...
Gisena: I'm going to run over here to do a thing!
Hunger: I'm going to secretly follow her!
Fish: Stop her from doing the thing, she's vulnerable! Oh no, I have been stabbed!
Fish, alternative: Information is conflicting, oh no the thing has been done!
Disregarding how Hunger doesn't have the stealth for this, and the doublethink required to leave the genius out of the loop and etc. Something less hypothetical, uh. "Hey Gisena, use your Ult in ten seconds." The Fish uses its precog to expect the Ult in ten seconds, and reacts accordingly. Then, nine seconds later: "Lol JK, don't use your Ult."
People whose brains aren't currently sludge, please either help finish my thought or tell me it's a dumb plan.
Swim for your life: The Fish doesn't have anything to gain from fighting Hunger, it could cut and run at any time. Hunger is probably faster with Refinement of Quickness, at least. But it could blast a huge wave at Civilization #8173 to distract us. Not that exactly, the answer there is +Heartlessness, but something along those lines. A good opening strike could slow it down, as well as blood debuffs.
Environment: Fish+Water=Bad. I don't have many new thoughts on this, except that Edeldross flight might be incredibly slow by now if it doesn't benefit from +Agi. We need to see it in action to decide if the water is as much of a problem as story logic suggests, or if it just doesn't matter at this level and Hunger can ignore it. Could carve out a pocket of air/vacuum near the Fish?
Artful Thorn't: The worst case scenario is (LP falls, everyone dies)- okay, a bad case scenario is that Artful Thorn, which the whole plan is built to support, plain doesn't work, and we're left to fight the continent sized beast with a bastard sword. I dunno why it wouldn't, maybe the Foremost designed Armaments with specific countermeasures against the one cool trick that kaijus hate. Non-Thorn strategies will also help when we can't use any more Thorns because of the scaling- it should be mostly dead by this point, but maybe it caused us to miss a few and is still fighting fit.
I need to do some incredibly vague napkin math to see if hitting this thing to death is even plausible. Okay, the volume of a mountain range... can't find it. The volume of Mauna Loa, the biggest mountain, is 75,000 km^3. How many mountains in a moun-
Okay, let me go with area. Mountain Ranges are often 75-150 miles (120-240 km) wide, and greatly vary in length, let's go with 2000 km long. 400,000 km^2 of area in a Rotbeast. 24,000,000 km^2 for North America. If we assume a
The Fish is 1,000 times larger than the Rotbeast, which would take Hunger around a day to kill. Has our DPS increased a thousandfold in the last two weeks? Luckily, we just got Whiteout to increase our DPS. ++Agi Skyveil, ++Agi/Might Bastion, ++Agi Tears, +20% Agi Tower, +100% Agi +30% All Stats Silver, +70% Physical Vigorflame. Str from 180 to 280, Agi from 130 to 350? Damn, okay. 50.7 Agi pluses to 157.5 (Not counting Cut Through)? Hunger is obscenely faster than he was before.
I'm done with math, it looks like there's enough "eh, I can see a 2x from dps coming from that" divided from the thousandfold bulk that going from 5.3 to 9.475 Rank should deal with the rest. Plus, this probably won't have the Rotbeast's complete lack of weak spots. tl;dr we can feasibly hit it until it dies.
One benefit of non-Thorn attacks is that they can be targeted, the downside is that they have to be. Fins, sense organs, "arteries," weapons (especially if we haven't grabbed ADS, for the 5x Ruin boost), the usual. I should note that we can obviously hit weakspots with normal Cuts even when we're still trying to Thorn if an opportunity presents itself, I never explicitly said that before. We can also use my old favorite of Bladewind spam! No need to get close to the fish and risk retaliation bodyslams, just keep cutting. I'm interested to see how it'll hold up in such a high-level fight. They should all be aimed rather than just hitting wherever, doing total HP damage with Bladewinds is like pissing into the ocean.
The best way to quickly increase DPS is to snap-buy ADS, or MoDS if we haven't mined the Arete. +5 All stats and 5x Ruin is no joke, and the autodefences would make this a bit less rocket tag-y.
Hunger-Defending Stance: I've written more about how to hurt the Fish than how to avoid getting hurt in return. We've been told one good shot can kill Hunger, which means that he's got to dodge for his life. If the Fish sends out a massive Rank-backed tidal wave that's too big to dodge, dodge it anyway. Refinement of Quickness is cool like that. It's a stamina hog, though, so we'd want to end the fight fast if we rely on it...
Proactive defense by spamming bladewinds at weapons, if we don't have ADS yet, would be useful. The same for Edeldross shields- they might be stronger after SIlver. Also Outer Shadow, we have lots of meh defenses to layer into something decent maybe. Have to work out how to layer them so they don't get eaten by Gisena's Nullity defenses, which are more important. Combined with Whiteout, some of the attacks that previously would have oneshot Hunger might only severely damage him- which, with Inherit and Healing, is the same as doing no damage if Hunger can get away quickly enough. Don't get hit by the Fish itself, that's still dead for sure.
I have a thought about Hunger cutting off body parts that are in danger so they can get physically destroyed without any soul damage happening, to be regenerated later, but I don't know enough about how that works to suggest it seriously.
Wacky Implausible Ideas (to varying degrees): Shift the Cloak to the Noontime Sky, the Fish will never suspect that it's still Hunger. Try to argue that because it's an "Armament," WeDS applies to the entire Fish. Check to see if there are any non-destroyed civs nearby that could give buffs. Try to slaughter a 0-1-pick enemy before the Fish's Rank tells it we want to kill it for powerups, and also to get used to Hunger's new powerlevel. Fly to the Outer Sky and crash back down, abusing Edeldross's fuelless kinetic flight for massive speed, and Fall of Night to take no damage (this one actually seems reasonable, at least for some fights). Mindbreak the Fish with massive Cha so it accepts its death. Use the Sea of Nullity to remove the sea of water, because words. Conceptual Sky bullshit to punish the Fish for pretending to be the horizon. Figure out how to take advantage of the Armament not having a pilot, and only being an "incomplete" person- hammer on the soul Vanrier style? Soul Cuts? Diplo the Fish before backstabbing it, I don't want to do this because it's mean. Try to figure out what Curse it has, that's Gisena's job. Grab giant whales as bait, it might get Hungry some time. Does it have any particularly important looking Runes to smash? Unleash max Edelboost+Sea and everything immediately to kill it before it notices us.
-How do I shot Rank: Even being around Hunger's uncontrolled Astral storm was dangerous for the party, so there's a lot of Pressure power to use there. Problem is, Hunger has no experience in this area, and neither do I, so who knows how feasible anything is. Is there an "On" button for a Shroud that may or may not exist? Could we use a super move like Versch has, with our connection to him? It would be awesome here, but I doubt it. Overwhelm our enemy, whiteout the sky with Bladewinds! Do they work differently now, can we power them up more? Can we use more fine-tuned soul attacks than "Pressure everything" now?
It'd be nice to play around a bit before the fight, but I don't trust that the Fish will sit obligingly and obliviously while we practice to kill it- it's good that Hunger learns best under pressure anyway, he'll just have to pay attention.
Ideal Astral Summon: Blood-having, to benefit from those buffs, if possible. A chargeable super attack, that would force the Fish to pay attention so Hunger can move in with Thorn, would be great. Defense or speed buffs? Illusions? Possibilities are endless.
Y'know, Astral Beasts are the natural enemies of Armaments anyway (for whatever reason), so... if whatever we summon can open a portal itself, we might have an army on our side, since we share a common cause. Just don't tell them about Versch lol.
Since that actually feels somewhat clever, I'll end with the Astral Army Made.
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